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Post by snow on Jul 25, 2023 14:50:19 GMT -5
There have been many public figures that have been found out to be abusers. I agree that people tend to overlook it because of their celebrity status. But that is changing and if they are still alive they are going to jail. Bill Crosby is an example. But we're not seeing that in this group, yet. The brother workers are the leaders. Sister workers are not leaders and as many brother workers taught us friends, they were there to provide support to the male workers and bring a bit of 'softness' to the ministry. But no woman is an overseer in this group. The survivors have taken their story to the workers, some of them female, some male. But in the end it's the male worker that decides what will be done with the person there is allegations about. I personally wouldn't go to the workers first. I would report the abuse of my child to the authorities and then I would tell the workers that I had done that and that I wanted that person temporarily stopped from being in meetings with children or meetings at all. I wouldn't have the authority to stop them myself as a friend. Only a worker has that authority. Ok after reporting it to the authorities, then you would inform the church? - but how far and wide would you inform? Would you inform the local community? Would you inform the local schools? I think this is more complicated than many would acknowledge. Here is an example. Lets say it like this, there is a 22 year old worker, kisses a 15 year old girl in south america, nothing else. The age of consent in south america is 14 years old. No crime is committed. 40 years later the girl comes forward and says the worker abused her and goes to the overseer in Canada to report the crime. The worker has no family, he is 62 years old and has nothing but a "clean sheet" beyond this incident. The overseer has known this worker for 30 years and has been his co-worker for 6 years. What should be done? The whole church globally informed? The local schools informed? The man excommunicated and completely cut off. I am in no way belittling the abuse by the way, but I am suggesting there is some degree of severity in the crimes committed. I am using this as an example of where an overseer MAY be conflicted on what to do. It is easy to stand on the sidelines without thinking about the depth of this. On the other hand someone like IRA HOBBS not only got removed from the work, but got himself a wife and got himself welcomed into fellowship despite his severe abuse. Only last week I was listening to a radio programme on Child Abuse and a lady called in and said she was abused by her grandfather, yet she cried in sorrow when he died. So much complexity on this matter. I'm with you there. It's a very complex issue. Anything that involves strong emotions tends to be complex. You asked what I would do after the authorities and the workers were informed. I would likely share it on social media with as many of the friends as I could reach. But I would have no way of informing the global church because I wouldn't likely know how to do that. Today it's far easier to spread the word because of social media platforms like fb and even twitter. I understand how hard it was before the friends were not on any of these platforms. In the above example, if the worker kissed her against her will, then that is wrong. If she was officially of age where it took place, then he hasn't committed CSA but he has committed SA. I agree that if he was never accused by anyone else over the years since he did that, it would be a hard decision for the overseer in his area to make. That's not what we seem to be dealing with here for the most part though. But I do understand what you are saying.
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Post by Dan on Jul 25, 2023 15:48:44 GMT -5
Ok after reporting it to the authorities, then you would inform the church? - but how far and wide would you inform? Would you inform the local community? Would you inform the local schools? I think this is more complicated than many would acknowledge. Here is an example. Lets say it like this, there is a 22 year old worker, kisses a 15 year old girl in south america, nothing else. The age of consent in south america is 14 years old. No crime is committed. 40 years later the girl comes forward and says the worker abused her and goes to the overseer in Canada to report the crime. The worker has no family, he is 62 years old and has nothing but a "clean sheet" beyond this incident. The overseer has known this worker for 30 years and has been his co-worker for 6 years. What should be done? The whole church globally informed? The local schools informed? The man excommunicated and completely cut off. I am in no way belittling the abuse by the way, but I am suggesting there is some degree of severity in the crimes committed. I am using this as an example of where an overseer MAY be conflicted on what to do. It is easy to stand on the sidelines without thinking about the depth of this. On the other hand someone like IRA HOBBS not only got removed from the work, but got himself a wife and got himself welcomed into fellowship despite his severe abuse. Only last week I was listening to a radio programme on Child Abuse and a lady called in and said she was abused by her grandfather, yet she cried in sorrow when he died. So much complexity on this matter.
Good points, not everything is so cut & dry.. I think that if a 15 year old waited 40 years to mention an inappropriate kiss, it probably wasn't a big deal and I wouldn't have reprimanded the Worker for the indiscretion, but just suggested that he apologize. To completely ruin someones life and reputation for a mild infraction like that would be a greater tragedy and injustice. I also don't think these things should be made public unless there is evidence to validate the allegations, especially if the accused is adamantly denying the charges.
I suspect that Overseers probably copied what action or non-action was taken on complaints that proceeded a case that they may be dealing with, whereby replicating the same results (mistakes). I read somewhere that a Worker was having a sexual relationship with 2 married women? An incident like that should require the removal of a Worker and complete excommunication of the 2 women. The husbands should be unaffected, even if they divorced their cheating wives.
Anyone committing CSA should be thrown out, and parents who fail to immediately report CSA should also be excommunicated. I have absolutely no respect for any adult who would remain silent when their child is being assaulted, that's tantamount to pimping out your own kids. Prioritizing the interest of a church over the safety and welfare of any child is a horrific sin, imo there's no complexity about that type of stuff.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on Aug 11, 2023 15:40:04 GMT -5
Ok after reporting it to the authorities, then you would inform the church? - but how far and wide would you inform? Would you inform the local community? Would you inform the local schools? I think this is more complicated than many would acknowledge. Here is an example. Lets say it like this, there is a 22 year old worker, kisses a 15 year old girl in south america, nothing else. The age of consent in south america is 14 years old. No crime is committed. 40 years later the girl comes forward and says the worker abused her and goes to the overseer in Canada to report the crime. The worker has no family, he is 62 years old and has nothing but a "clean sheet" beyond this incident. The overseer has known this worker for 30 years and has been his co-worker for 6 years. What should be done? The whole church globally informed? The local schools informed? The man excommunicated and completely cut off. I am in no way belittling the abuse by the way, but I am suggesting there is some degree of severity in the crimes committed. I am using this as an example of where an overseer MAY be conflicted on what to do. It is easy to stand on the sidelines without thinking about the depth of this. On the other hand someone like IRA HOBBS not only got removed from the work, but got himself a wife and got himself welcomed into fellowship despite his severe abuse. Only last week I was listening to a radio programme on Child Abuse and a lady called in and said she was abused by her grandfather, yet she cried in sorrow when he died. So much complexity on this matter.
Good points, not everything is so cut & dry.. I think that if a 15 year old waited 40 years to mention an inappropriate kiss, it probably wasn't a big deal and I wouldn't have reprimanded the Worker for the indiscretion, but just suggested that he apologize. To completely ruin someones life and reputation for a mild infraction like that would be a greater tragedy and injustice. I also don't think these things should be made public unless there is evidence to validate the allegations, especially if the accused is adamantly denying the charges.
I suspect that Overseers probably copied what action or non-action was taken on complaints that proceeded a case that they may be dealing with, whereby replicating the same results (mistakes). I read somewhere that a Worker was having a sexual relationship with 2 married women? An incident like that should require the removal of a Worker and complete excommunication of the 2 women. The husbands should be unaffected, even if they divorced their cheating wives.
Anyone committing CSA should be thrown out, and parents who fail to immediately report CSA should also be excommunicated. I have absolutely no respect for any adult who would remain silent when their child is being assaulted, that's tantamount to pimping out your own kids. Prioritizing the interest of a church over the safety and welfare of any child is a horrific sin, imo there's no complexity about that type of stuff.
Did Jesus completely excommunicate the woman taken in adultery? It doesn’t say He did. He said go and sin no more. Where was the man she committed adultery with? The Jews of that day didn’t think he needed any consequences. , apparently, just the woman. If you think the women should be completely excommunicated by what authority do you base that on? Are you a worker, an overseer? Do you know the details of the case. The woman may have been coerced by the brother worker and there is not an equal power level in the church between those two. The worker may have been the initiator of the relationships. Why not excommunicate the Worker as well? He is just as guilty as the women. Maybe that’s not what you meant. Anyway, in some states it is illegal for clergy to have any romantic or sexual relationships with laity. There’s a reason for that. The clergy is considered to be taking advantage of their position and they have more power. Therefore it is not considered true consent by the woman. Nor is it truly consensual.
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Post by Dan on Aug 12, 2023 1:31:53 GMT -5
Good points, not everything is so cut & dry.. I think that if a 15 year old waited 40 years to mention an inappropriate kiss, it probably wasn't a big deal and I wouldn't have reprimanded the Worker for the indiscretion, but just suggested that he apologize. To completely ruin someones life and reputation for a mild infraction like that would be a greater tragedy and injustice. I also don't think these things should be made public unless there is evidence to validate the allegations, especially if the accused is adamantly denying the charges.
I suspect that Overseers probably copied what action or non-action was taken on complaints that proceeded a case that they may be dealing with, whereby replicating the same results (mistakes). I read somewhere that a Worker was having a sexual relationship with 2 married women? An incident like that should require the removal of a Worker and complete excommunication of the 2 women. The husbands should be unaffected, even if they divorced their cheating wives. Anyone committing CSA should be thrown out, and parents who fail to immediately report CSA should also be excommunicated. I have absolutely no respect for any adult who would remain silent when their child is being assaulted, that's tantamount to pimping out your own kids. Prioritizing the interest of a church over the safety and welfare of any child is a horrific sin, imo there's no complexity about that type of stuff.
Did Jesus completely excommunicate the woman taken in adultery? It doesn’t say He did. He said go and sin no more. Where was the man she committed adultery with? The Jews of that day didn’t think he needed any consequences. , apparently, just the woman. If you think the women should be completely excommunicated by what authority do you base that on? Are you a worker, an overseer? Do you know the details of the case. The woman may have been coerced by the brother worker and there is not an equal power level in the church between those two. The worker may have been the initiator of the relationships. Why not excommunicate the Worker as well? He is just as guilty as the women. Maybe that’s not what you meant. Anyway, in some states it is illegal for clergy to have any romantic or sexual relationships with laity. There’s a reason for that. The clergy is considered to be taking advantage of their position and they have more power. Therefore it is not considered true consent by the woman. Nor is it truly consensual. Anyone committing adultery should be excommunicated. I have no authority, that's just my opinion. You can't have married people (men or women) in a church screwing around breaking the 7th commandment. Jesus prevented the woman caught in adultery from being stoned, but he didn't condone what she had done and he told her to knock it off. It doesn't matter who initiates the sin when both are adults, its consensual so both are guilty. You paint a convenient excuse when you say that its not true consent by the woman. If a married man cheated on his wife with a female Worker, would you have that same opinion? Victims are forced and don' have a choice, but married persons who voluntarily engage in adultery are cheaters, they aren't victims. Remember that Eve was coerced (beguiled) by the serpent, but God still held her accountable.
I wrote that a Worker should be removed from the Work in such a case. You just can't have individuals giving testimonies, praying, and partaking in the emblems, when they're screwing the wife or husband of the person sitting next to them. That's tantamount to turning a spiritually enlightened home meeting into a brothel. Its not a place for gigolo's and wh0res
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2023 6:11:09 GMT -5
Did Jesus completely excommunicate the woman taken in adultery? It doesn’t say He did. He said go and sin no more. Where was the man she committed adultery with? The Jews of that day didn’t think he needed any consequences. , apparently, just the woman. If you think the women should be completely excommunicated by what authority do you base that on? Are you a worker, an overseer? Do you know the details of the case. The woman may have been coerced by the brother worker and there is not an equal power level in the church between those two. The worker may have been the initiator of the relationships. Why not excommunicate the Worker as well? He is just as guilty as the women. Maybe that’s not what you meant. Anyway, in some states it is illegal for clergy to have any romantic or sexual relationships with laity. There’s a reason for that. The clergy is considered to be taking advantage of their position and they have more power. Therefore it is not considered true consent by the woman. Nor is it truly consensual. Anyone committing adultery should be excommunicated. I have no authority, that's just my opinion. You can't have married people (men or women) in a church screwing around breaking the 7th commandment. Jesus prevented the woman caught in adultery from being stoned, but he didn't condone what she had done and he told her to knock it off. It doesn't matter who initiates the sin when both are adults, its consensual so both are guilty. You paint a convenient excuse when you say that its not true consent by the woman. If a married man cheated on his wife with a female Worker, would you have that same opinion? Victims are forced and don' have a choice, but married persons who voluntarily engage in adultery are cheaters, they aren't victims. Remember that Eve was coerced (beguiled) by the serpent, but God still held her accountable.
I wrote that a Worker should be removed from the Work in such a case. You just can't have individuals giving testimonies, praying, and partaking in the emblems, when they're screwing the wife or husband of the person sitting next to them. That's tantamount to turning a spiritually enlightened home meeting into a brothel. Its not a place for gigolo's and wh0res
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