jf
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Post by jf on Jul 10, 2023 11:09:52 GMT -5
I think one of the big misses at present is the lack of a statement around the standing of people around the world who have recently been asked to no longer attend meetings because of CSA convictions or allegations. At present, people will understandably be confused whether such people are to be considered brethren or not.
If they are still considered brethren, how are these people to have interaction with their brethren going forward? Presumably some friends (maybe some of those without children) will still meet up socially with them – if so, then why can’t they also meet with such people in recognised fellowship (which it seems is now being permanently shut off from them)?
If they are no longer considered our brethren in Christ, then it feels like we have reached a point where ‘not a sin so great but He’ll forgive it’ seems in actual practice to be rather a hollow (or false?) statement for those in the meetings. If they are no longer considered our brethren, then because of something done in their past, these people would effectively be viewed as permanently ‘out of Christ without a Saviour’ (because they are no longer counted as brethren and with no way open for them to come back).
Something really feels strange and conflicting here to me. Hopefully some overseer will provide some real transparency on this subject for the friends. Interestingly, if a statement is made that these folk are still considered brethren (or even if they are considered as ‘possibly brethren’!) then it would be the first time as far as I know of a formal acknowledgement that there may be saved people outside the 2x2 meetings.
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Peony
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Post by Peony on Jul 10, 2023 12:02:55 GMT -5
I've appreciated a few comments on this board that are, at least to me, instructive. I am paraphrasing: (1) CSA and SA are illegal activities and the perpetrators must answer to the law and to God. That is their own burden, created by themselves, and we/others cannot remove that burden. (2) Sheep do not injure sheep; wolves injure sheep. Wolves are not sheep. (3) Sheep's wool cannot be applied to wolves' backs. (4) If the wolves/perpetrators truly repent, they will see that their own presence creates fear in the sheep and will be willing, if not glad, to have alternative "fellowship," if you will, much like folks in nursing homes, etc.
I don't think anyone is saying the blood of Christ would not apply to perpetrators if they really acknowledge their error and repent and their fruit (by their fruit you will know them) becomes that of the spirit of God. But that doesn't mean they ever have the right to be near victims or people fearful of them.
And, yes, there should be a formal acknowledgment that this specific fellowship is not the Only True Way, that Jesus is the Only True Way. Will it ever happen?!
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Post by getreal on Jul 10, 2023 12:03:54 GMT -5
There is a lot you bring here but number one, so most friends still believe there is salvation only within the 2 by 2 church? I get the sense no, particularly now or maybe the friends just feel more free to express their evolution along these lines. So, if salvation is possible elsewhere your biggest question is taken care of. And as far as forgiveness, no one can impart forgiveness to another. We are all on our own there. You can forgive someone but that doesn’t mean they are ever allowed access to you again. There are consequences for our actions. But can an individual choose to maintain contact with an individual who for their actions must not be allowed access to the congregation as a whole? Sure. i remember a situation where a few male friends felt they could continue a informal Bible study with an expelled abuser. But your feelings of safety can’t rule the day for the group as a whole where unbeknownst to you perhaps there are very different feelings towards that person and their safety emotionally and physically must take precedence. And then there is the reality that these people will continue to offend and need for their sakes even, if you are feeling compassion for them and future victims, to keep away from temptation. No?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 14:35:55 GMT -5
I think one of the big misses at present is the lack of a statement around the standing of people around the world who have recently been asked to no longer attend meetings because of CSA convictions or allegations. At present, people will understandably be confused whether such people are to be considered brethren or not. If they are still considered brethren, how are these people to have interaction with their brethren going forward? Presumably some friends (maybe some of those without children) will still meet up socially with them – if so, then why can’t they also meet with such people in recognised fellowship (which it seems is now being permanently shut off from them)? If they are no longer considered our brethren in Christ, then it feels like we have reached a point where ‘not a sin so great but He’ll forgive it’ seems in actual practice to be rather a hollow (or false?) statement for those in the meetings. If they are no longer considered our brethren, then because of something done in their past, these people would effectively be viewed as permanently ‘out of Christ without a Saviour’ (because they are no longer counted as brethren and with no way open for them to come back). Something really feels strange and conflicting here to me. Hopefully some overseer will provide some real transparency on this subject for the friends. Interestingly, if a statement is made that these folk are still considered brethren (or even if they are considered as ‘possibly brethren’!) then it would be the first time as far as I know of a formal acknowledgement that there may be saved people outside the 2x2 meetings. Valid points, people go into a serious rage on CSA though (rightfully of course) little will appease that. As far as I can tell in scripture only one sin is unforgivable, blasphemy. If someone knows of more, please tell....
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Post by snow on Jul 10, 2023 15:32:13 GMT -5
I think one of the big misses at present is the lack of a statement around the standing of people around the world who have recently been asked to no longer attend meetings because of CSA convictions or allegations. At present, people will understandably be confused whether such people are to be considered brethren or not. If they are still considered brethren, how are these people to have interaction with their brethren going forward? Presumably some friends (maybe some of those without children) will still meet up socially with them – if so, then why can’t they also meet with such people in recognised fellowship (which it seems is now being permanently shut off from them)? If they are no longer considered our brethren in Christ, then it feels like we have reached a point where ‘not a sin so great but He’ll forgive it’ seems in actual practice to be rather a hollow (or false?) statement for those in the meetings. If they are no longer considered our brethren, then because of something done in their past, these people would effectively be viewed as permanently ‘out of Christ without a Saviour’ (because they are no longer counted as brethren and with no way open for them to come back). Something really feels strange and conflicting here to me. Hopefully some overseer will provide some real transparency on this subject for the friends. Interestingly, if a statement is made that these folk are still considered brethren (or even if they are considered as ‘possibly brethren’!) then it would be the first time as far as I know of a formal acknowledgement that there may be saved people outside the 2x2 meetings. Being your brother in Christ can still be. In the age of technology there are ways that they can listen to fellowship meetings, gospel meetings etc. But CSA is a criminal offence and pedophiles have to be kept away from children/teens. That is the reality of the situation. It is not only for the sake of the children it is also for the sake of the pedophile. Many of them hate themselves when they give in to temptation and can't stop themselves. So making sure they are not put into situations where they are tempted to offend is beneficial for them also. Any adult that still wishes to have contact can have contact. The thing that should not happen though is for them to be in the meetings, even with adults, because many of those that suffered the abuse of CSA 20 years ago are now adults and being in the same space with their offender would not be good. If it could be guaranteed that no survivor was in a meeting with the offender, and the adults in the group were okay with it, I don't see why they couldn't attend. The place where the group is right now is in flux. Because so many are coming forward and we are seeing the scope of how many perpetrators have been recognized at the moment, it is wise at the moment that those that have been identified as abusers not be allowed in the meetings. They can listen in. At the moment no one knows if there are more that just haven't yet been identified because the survivor of their abuse is too afraid for various reasons to come forward yet. It literally can be anyone as we've seen. Once the legal process has progressed to where there are trials and consequences and/or acquittals, then maybe it can be addressed a little more thoughtfully. But accepting them as brethren is an individual thing I would think. If you feel you can still accept them that way, then do that. Everyone will need to discover for themselves what they can accept. CSA triggers people in many ways as we've seen. I do wonder why you are looking to the overseers for an answer. Also, just because they can't attend meetings doesn't mean they aren't a part of the 2x2's so why wouldn't they still be regarded as brethren and still uphold the belief that you have to be in the group to be brethren? Bottom line, keep the children safe.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 10, 2023 15:46:58 GMT -5
The crimes need dealing with in real time and on a real earth. If the perps want to continue to participate they need to remember that real law takes precedence. If there are court orders about being in the prescence of children or women or men then they take precedence over what a church thinks. If a home owner does not want a perp in their house then it is well within their right to trespass them from the house. If the workers object then trespass the workers. Actions have consequences. Religion is like pro wrestling. But you still go.
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Post by passingby on Jul 10, 2023 16:02:05 GMT -5
Who is my brother, who is my mother....
I'll bet a mother would take in a CSA son or daughter, no matter what they have done, Maybe especially because of what others would like to do to them.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 10, 2023 18:25:24 GMT -5
Who is my brother, who is my mother.... I'll bet a mother would take in a CSA son or daughter, no matter what they have done, Maybe especially because of what others would like to do to them. Jesus says who is my mother, who is my brothers, but those who do the will of my father which is in heaven. And it isn't the will of the father to commit wicked acts like CSA. We will all be judged on what we go good and bad, and once we know the truth we are held more responsible for our actions. Mathew12 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
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Post by getreal on Jul 10, 2023 21:55:45 GMT -5
So jf, what is your response to all these posts.
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Post by fixit on Jul 11, 2023 3:08:05 GMT -5
In the age of technology there are ways that they can listen to fellowship meetings, gospel meetings etc. But CSA is a criminal offence and pedophiles have to be kept away from children/teens. That is the reality of the situation. It is not only for the sake of the children it is also for the sake of the pedophile. Many of them hate themselves when they give in to temptation and can't stop themselves. So making sure they are not put into situations where they are tempted to offend is beneficial for them also. Any adult that still wishes to have contact can have contact. Another consideration is protection of the naive and uninformed parents and caregivers. Some will see the perpetrator in meetings and assume they can be trusted. Remember that perps groom not only children, but friends, parents, workers, overseers etc.
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Post by snow on Jul 11, 2023 13:04:41 GMT -5
In the age of technology there are ways that they can listen to fellowship meetings, gospel meetings etc. But CSA is a criminal offence and pedophiles have to be kept away from children/teens. That is the reality of the situation. It is not only for the sake of the children it is also for the sake of the pedophile. Many of them hate themselves when they give in to temptation and can't stop themselves. So making sure they are not put into situations where they are tempted to offend is beneficial for them also. Any adult that still wishes to have contact can have contact. Another consideration is protection of the naive and uninformed parents and caregivers. Some will see the perpetrator in meetings and assume they can be trusted. Remember that perps groom not only children, but friends, parents, workers, overseers etc. That's a very good point. It very often begins with the parents being groomed so that they trust that worker absolutely.
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jf
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Post by jf on Jul 13, 2023 15:19:56 GMT -5
So jf, what is your response to all these posts. Hi getreal I've enjoyed reading the replies which I think have been thoughtfully written...... and therefore good for me to ponder on. Lots of good points. In answer to your question, I am still pondering! I'll try and put some of my current thoughts/concerns down here. I don't think any of the responses attempt to answer the question though, as to whether the people being told to leave meetings are considered still to be our brethren. It's probably not a fair question to put to the poeple here anyway, because the decision to purge the flock of CSA transgressors has been made by the overseers and only they will know exactly the thoughts that have been going through their minds as they've done this. Because everyone is wanting transparency, I thought the overseers may have been able to add a short sentence giving more information about these people's future relationship with the church. But that might be expecting too much at present, as there is a high chance in my view that these overseers will have different views from each other on this - particularly as it does stray a bit into the sensitive area of whether there are saved people outside the 2x2 fellowship. They might want to sidestep this, while feeling happy to act on the thing they are united in - ie the removing of CSA perpetrators from the fellowship. This last week I ran into a friend of mine who is an experienced minister in a mainstream denomination and we talked a bit about these issues as he was heavily involved in the rolling out of safeguarding in his own and some neighbouring churches. I then emailed him with some questions similar to those made in our opening post and I found his response very interesting - as follows in blue "Whenever there is a safeguarding allegation against someone in the church, the Diocese will call together a Core Group who will manage the situation, including locally within the church concerned. The group will normally include the vicar and safeguarding officer from that church. The Core Group will liaise with the statutory authorities (Police, local authority etc). They will do a risk assessment which will inform decisions about what is best in terms of church involvement for the alleged offender. It might be that the police give that person bail conditions (eg no contact with certain people) and these are legally enforceable (it’s a big deal if people break bail conditions). Beyond that, the church would have decisions to make too. If the allegation was about CSA, the person would be asked to step down from any work they did that involve children and young people. The risk assessment process would consider other things too (eg risks if they continue to come along to church) and these would lead to what is called a ‘Safeguarding Agreement’. These aren’t legally enforceable, but are designed to ensure that the alleged offender can continue to come along to church, but only in a way that minimises any risks to others (so maybe coming only to services where children tend not to be present, or only sitting in a certain place, or being accompanied by someone who knows about the situation and keeps a constant eye on what they’re doing, or perhaps going to a different church). [in this minister's church on Sundays they have a number of services during the day but the later evening one basically only has adults attending] If the authorities decided not to take action, or if they did but then the person finished any prison sentence, this Diocese-led risk assessment/Safeguarding Agreement process would continue, with regular reviews. There might well still be restrictions on how the person attended church and (esp if they had been found guilty of CSA) I can’t see any way that they would be allowed to work with children again (in any case, they would be on the Sex Offenders Register, which would help to stop this too). Restrictions shouldn’t just continue ad infinitum without being reviewed. But, if they’re judged to be necessary still, they will continue. Safer Agreements are supposed to be very confidential, so only known about by the vicar, safeguarding officer, and maybe the wardens. So most of the church aren’t meant to know. Obviously court proceedings tend to make things more public, though. As to whether we would look on the offender as a brother or sister, I think the focus would be more on how they seemed to be responding, and less on what they might have done. If they seemed to be genuinely repentant, I think we would have to view them as a brother or sister still. If they didn’t, we couldn’t really. But that wouldn’t change any of the risk assessment/Safer Agreement process – this would still be applied to someone we did think was still a brother or sister."I found this interesting coming from a denomination who spent oodles of money seeking advice for getting processes agreed and then implemented. He mentions some things that I don't think our fellowship has even considered yet and that makes me rather uneasy as I think they are charging on ahead with excommunications etc without having thought the whole thing through adequately. One of the things that I still feel uneasy about is that if people are not considered our brethren then surely they are much more likely to seek out other churches. I know some have written on other threads suggesting that them doing this is fine (I think their thinking is along the lines of 'we don't want them.. they can go to church elsewhere'), but again, I don't think they've thought this through enough, because in practice that is reckless. Pedophiles shifting to other churches is just spreading the problem elsewhere, which is exactly why most of us were so unhappy when we heard of workers who have committed CSA in the past, being moved on to another state with no transparency to anyone at all. Suddenly we seem to be approving something that has similar consequences to what we previously vilified! This is why it does matter how the overseers view these people in terms of whether they are brethren or not - if they confirm they are not brethren, then they will be adding more risk of CSA to other churches (in my view). I do admit from reading this Board that many people here do seem to be fairly happy with the 'new' approach that has been taking place in various parts of the world these past few months. They certainly appear to be happier about it than I, because I am pretty concerned that what we have is actually a half-cocked approach that, for the reasons given above, is still going to cause more heart ache than it needs to. I sincerely hope I am proved wrong on this. I will be observing how things develop over the next while with great interest!
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Post by snow on Jul 13, 2023 16:04:16 GMT -5
jf You make some very good points. I have to agree with you that there is chaos among the overseers as to how to uniformly deal with this situation. You're right when you say that just kicking them out just sends them to some other unsuspecting church and that's something that is so upsetting for the friends right now because of the overseers doing that in their own group. The thing that seems to be missing from the workers approach is the reporting to the law that there are allegations of CSA against these abusers so that it can be handled by the professionals and if convicted get them on a Sexual Predator list so other churches at least have a way of knowing if they try to attend their church. I really don't think the senior workers ever thought what they were doing would be found out. And, if not for Dean Bruer things would likely be still going on like there were before DB. So if they look like they have a 'half-cocked' approach, I think that's because they really have no idea what to do to appease the friends and still protect the reputation of the 'kingdom'. I find that appalling that they even take that into consideration over the damage done to the survivors, but it does appear to be key for at least some of them.
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Post by getreal on Jul 13, 2023 17:08:27 GMT -5
Concur with all above. I think what is being highlighted here is what a church looks and acts like when it is trying not to be an organized religion! You can’t analyze processes and make policy because you claim to not need anything but the word of god and prayer. Overseers are not accustomed to getting help from professionals outside the group,. It’s starting now of course, but like you say it’s a blunt and unsophisticated tool of excommunication that is used now because they don’t have the will or ability to means to set up something more detailed and tailored to each situation. Its just a blanket approach. So far. If the friends get involved more, maybe something more systematic and effective could be developed but workers aren’t comfortable with the work involved that to them seems more administrative. They just want to pray and make decrees.
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Post by Dan on Jul 14, 2023 0:45:25 GMT -5
I think one of the big misses at present is the lack of a statement around the standing of people around the world who have recently been asked to no longer attend meetings because of CSA convictions or allegations. At present, people will understandably be confused whether such people are to be considered brethren or not. If they are still considered brethren, how are these people to have interaction with their brethren going forward? Presumably some friends (maybe some of those without children) will still meet up socially with them – if so, then why can’t they also meet with such people in recognised fellowship (which it seems is now being permanently shut off from them)? If they are no longer considered our brethren in Christ, then it feels like we have reached a point where ‘not a sin so great but He’ll forgive it’ seems in actual practice to be rather a hollow (or false?) statement for those in the meetings. If they are no longer considered our brethren, then because of something done in their past, these people would effectively be viewed as permanently ‘out of Christ without a Saviour’ (because they are no longer counted as brethren and with no way open for them to come back). Something really feels strange and conflicting here to me. Hopefully some overseer will provide some real transparency on this subject for the friends. Interestingly, if a statement is made that these folk are still considered brethren (or even if they are considered as ‘possibly brethren’!) then it would be the first time as far as I know of a formal acknowledgement that there may be saved people outside the 2x2 meetings.
What's at issue isn't ones personal relationship with Christ, because he is faithful to forgive any repentant sinner. But Jesus also taught that in the case of one offending member to the church body, its best to cast that member out, rather than allow them to infect the entire church (Matthew 5:30). Someone guilty of CSA is sick and that type of perverted behavior can't be tolerated, total excommunication is the only response because a hypocrite of that caliber can't be trusted. Just as an infected appendix needs to be cut out, otherwise the entire body could perish without performing an appendectomy.
Infidelity, fornication, and adultery, are shunnable sins, but not considered an abomination before God. Workers guilty of those offenses should step down, but not be kicked out. There's a big difference between consenting adults fooling around and the crimes of CSA or rape. People who commit the latter are criminals who prey on the vulnerable, they aren't brethren.
The problem is that there won't likely be many court convictions of the CSA allegations, so there will still be a bunch of questionable characters lurking about.
I personally don't think there's anything conflicting because salvation has always been through Christ and Christ alone, no church group can independently claim to be the only door to salvation. This is all just my opinion and point of view of course.
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Post by marmor on Jul 15, 2023 5:52:09 GMT -5
I endorse full lawfull investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment. God never hid the sins of His dear ones. He dealt with them and it’s there for all generations to read. Full exposure. David was NOT dethroned and indeed of all his sons, Solomon was chosen of God to succeed him. Judah was not replaced by Joseph whom we may have deemed more worthy. So we are reminded that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. David ‘not knowing He was the man’ pronounced the death penalty as worthy punishment. Judah did the same, that’s the tendency we have. Do we really get the message in John. 8? There was not a single one who could cast a stone, young or old. The Bible is full of the history of God’s people being rebellious, disobedient etc and most often it was the leaders, the priest, the false prophets who led them astray. So no one need doubt God’s way because of what takes place inside the fold. Rev. 2.The charge against was, you have left your first love, to their credit, they endured, didn’t tolerate evil, critically appraised false apostles, hated the Nicolaitans (an immoral group) whom God hated. Gud did NOT request that they be removed. Matt. 24.10. We are warned, where iniquity abounds the love of many will wax cold. That is the danger. It’s good there is a wide discussion on these matters. Only we mustn’t make the same mistake as in 2 Chron.13. Everybody was asked and it was all agreed, but no one asked God! .Even if we all feel strongly for retribution there is a factor we must never forget. JESUS IS OUR SOVEREIGN LORD. Matt. 13. HE tells us there will always be tares amongst the wheat. They are NOT to be sorted out by ANY man, lest the wheat be hurt, they are to grow together until harvest, that is, the end of the age. The net Will bring in good and bad. We have no control over this. Jesus said it would be sorted out, this also, at the end of the age, by the angels. Matt. 25.31. Is the third time He teaches this. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Matt.12.20. He is very carefull not to quench the least little hope of salvation that is left in a person’s life, that’s why He doesn’t put it in man’s power. God will always be able to say, ‘I gave them time to repent but they repented not’. Just think of the potter’s work, when it is marred, He makes it over again, He doesn’t discard it like we would. Think if we put so much into a work and someone came and threw it out while we still saw a way to mend it. We can’t fathom the work that has been done since time began before the Gospel came to us. And a lot of work before we yielded. The years of work God does before sending out His servants, winning there hearts to see the need for labourers and then gently calling til they no longer say, NO! Sadly some have taken this authority on themselves to oust others both out of the work and out of fellowship and forbidding to take part because of a standard they themselves have made. When we yeilded to God we entered into a covenant with HIM. When the Gospel was preached, the workers moved on and the Church which God established was equipped with each member to the edifiying of itself in love. It still works this way, and we trust it will continue because it is of The Lord’s doing and marvellous in our eyes.
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Post by verna on Jul 15, 2023 9:30:44 GMT -5
I endorse full lawfull investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment. God never hid the sins of His dear ones. He dealt with them and it’s there for all generations to read. Full exposure. David was NOT dethroned and indeed of all his sons, Solomon was chosen of God to succeed him. Judah was not replaced by Joseph whom we may have deemed more worthy. So we are reminded that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. David ‘not knowing He was the man’ pronounced the death penalty as worthy punishment. Judah did the same, that’s the tendency we have. Do we really get the message in John. 8? There was not a single one who could cast a stone, young or old. The Bible is full of the history of God’s people being rebellious, disobedient etc and most often it was the leaders, the priest, the false prophets who led them astray. So no one need doubt God’s way because of what takes place inside the fold. Rev. 2.The charge against was, you have left your first love, to their credit, they endured, didn’t tolerate evil, critically appraised false apostles, hated the Nicolaitans (an immoral group) whom God hated. Gud did NOT request that they be removed. Matt. 24.10. We are warned, where iniquity abounds the love of many will wax cold. That is the danger. It’s good there is a wide discussion on these matters. Only we mustn’t make the same mistake as in 2 Chron.13. Everybody was asked and it was all agreed, but no one asked God! .Even if we all feel strongly for retribution there is a factor we must never forget. JESUS IS OUR SOVEREIGN LORD. Matt. 13. HE tells us there will always be tares amongst the wheat. They are NOT to be sorted out by ANY man, lest the wheat be hurt, they are to grow together until harvest, that is, the end of the age. The net Will bring in good and bad. We have no control over this. Jesus said it would be sorted out, this also, at the end of the age, by the angels. Matt. 25.31. Is the third time He teaches this. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Matt.12.20. He is very carefull not to quench the least little hope of salvation that is left in a person’s life, that’s why He doesn’t put it in man’s power. God will always be able to say, ‘I gave them time to repent but they repented not’. Just think of the potter’s work, when it is marred, He makes it over again, He doesn’t discard it like we would. Think if we put so much into a work and someone came and threw it out while we still saw a way to mend it. We can’t fathom the work that has been done since time began before the Gospel came to us. And a lot of work before we yielded. The years of work God does before sending out His servants, winning there hearts to see the need for labourers and then gently calling til they no longer say, NO! Sadly some have taken this authority on themselves to oust others both out of the work and out of fellowship and forbidding to take part because of a standard they themselves have made. When we yeilded to God we entered into a covenant with HIM. When the Gospel was preached, the workers moved on and the Church which God established was equipped with each member to the edifiying of itself in love. It still works this way, and we trust it will continue because it is of The Lord’s doing and marvellous in our eyes. So are you saying the workers’ way is the only way and we need to follow them? That’s what I’m getting from your last paragraph.
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Post by snow on Jul 15, 2023 12:46:43 GMT -5
I endorse full lawfull investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment. God never hid the sins of His dear ones. He dealt with them and it’s there for all generations to read. Full exposure. David was NOT dethroned and indeed of all his sons, Solomon was chosen of God to succeed him. Judah was not replaced by Joseph whom we may have deemed more worthy. So we are reminded that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. David ‘not knowing He was the man’ pronounced the death penalty as worthy punishment. Judah did the same, that’s the tendency we have. Do we really get the message in John. 8? There was not a single one who could cast a stone, young or old. The Bible is full of the history of God’s people being rebellious, disobedient etc and most often it was the leaders, the priest, the false prophets who led them astray. So no one need doubt God’s way because of what takes place inside the fold. Rev. 2.The charge against was, you have left your first love, to their credit, they endured, didn’t tolerate evil, critically appraised false apostles, hated the Nicolaitans (an immoral group) whom God hated. Gud did NOT request that they be removed. Matt. 24.10. We are warned, where iniquity abounds the love of many will wax cold. That is the danger. It’s good there is a wide discussion on these matters. Only we mustn’t make the same mistake as in 2 Chron.13. Everybody was asked and it was all agreed, but no one asked God! .Even if we all feel strongly for retribution there is a factor we must never forget. JESUS IS OUR SOVEREIGN LORD. Matt. 13. HE tells us there will always be tares amongst the wheat. They are NOT to be sorted out by ANY man, lest the wheat be hurt, they are to grow together until harvest, that is, the end of the age. The net Will bring in good and bad. We have no control over this. Jesus said it would be sorted out, this also, at the end of the age, by the angels. Matt. 25.31. Is the third time He teaches this. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Matt.12.20. He is very carefull not to quench the least little hope of salvation that is left in a person’s life, that’s why He doesn’t put it in man’s power. God will always be able to say, ‘I gave them time to repent but they repented not’. Just think of the potter’s work, when it is marred, He makes it over again, He doesn’t discard it like we would. Think if we put so much into a work and someone came and threw it out while we still saw a way to mend it. We can’t fathom the work that has been done since time began before the Gospel came to us. And a lot of work before we yielded. The years of work God does before sending out His servants, winning there hearts to see the need for labourers and then gently calling til they no longer say, NO! Sadly some have taken this authority on themselves to oust others both out of the work and out of fellowship and forbidding to take part because of a standard they themselves have made. When we yeilded to God we entered into a covenant with HIM. When the Gospel was preached, the workers moved on and the Church which God established was equipped with each member to the edifiying of itself in love. It still works this way, and we trust it will continue because it is of The Lord’s doing and marvellous in our eyes. And here folks is why religious interpretations are so dangerous to the safety of the group and society in general. It says in the bible that evil doers are to be cast out. Not by God but by humans. So once again the bible can be interpreted any way anyone likes because there are so many contradictions in it. I am confused by your post though. Your first sentence says "I endorse full lawfull investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment." But then you go on to point out that David wasn't dethroned etc. So I have to ask. Do you or do you not think workers should step down and offenders not allowed in those positions again?
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Post by Dan on Jul 15, 2023 15:49:54 GMT -5
I endorse full lawfull investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment. God never hid the sins of His dear ones. He dealt with them and it’s there for all generations to read. Full exposure. David was NOT dethroned and indeed of all his sons, Solomon was chosen of God to succeed him. Judah was not replaced by Joseph whom we may have deemed more worthy. So we are reminded that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. David ‘not knowing He was the man’ pronounced the death penalty as worthy punishment. Judah did the same, that’s the tendency we have. Do we really get the message in John. 8? There was not a single one who could cast a stone, young or old. The Bible is full of the history of God’s people being rebellious, disobedient etc and most often it was the leaders, the priest, the false prophets who led them astray. So no one need doubt God’s way because of what takes place inside the fold. Rev. 2.The charge against was, you have left your first love, to their credit, they endured, didn’t tolerate evil, critically appraised false apostles, hated the Nicolaitans (an immoral group) whom God hated. Gud did NOT request that they be removed. Matt. 24.10. We are warned, where iniquity abounds the love of many will wax cold. That is the danger. It’s good there is a wide discussion on these matters. Only we mustn’t make the same mistake as in 2 Chron.13. Everybody was asked and it was all agreed, but no one asked God! .Even if we all feel strongly for retribution there is a factor we must never forget. JESUS IS OUR SOVEREIGN LORD. Matt. 13. HE tells us there will always be tares amongst the wheat. They are NOT to be sorted out by ANY man, lest the wheat be hurt, they are to grow together until harvest, that is, the end of the age. The net Will bring in good and bad. We have no control over this. Jesus said it would be sorted out, this also, at the end of the age, by the angels. Matt. 25.31. Is the third time He teaches this. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Matt.12.20. He is very carefull not to quench the least little hope of salvation that is left in a person’s life, that’s why He doesn’t put it in man’s power. God will always be able to say, ‘I gave them time to repent but they repented not’. Just think of the potter’s work, when it is marred, He makes it over again, He doesn’t discard it like we would. Think if we put so much into a work and someone came and threw it out while we still saw a way to mend it. We can’t fathom the work that has been done since time began before the Gospel came to us. And a lot of work before we yielded. The years of work God does before sending out His servants, winning there hearts to see the need for labourers and then gently calling til they no longer say, NO! Sadly some have taken this authority on themselves to oust others both out of the work and out of fellowship and forbidding to take part because of a standard they themselves have made. When we yeilded to God we entered into a covenant with HIM. When the Gospel was preached, the workers moved on and the Church which God established was equipped with each member to the edifiying of itself in love. It still works this way, and we trust it will continue because it is of The Lord’s doing and marvellous in our eyes.
Most agree that abusers should be reported and investigated by the proper authorities. There was a command that prohibited people from punishing a person that God personally anointed. "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm" (Psalms 105:15). David did not kill King Saul because Saul was anointed by God. Only God could judge and reprimand him. "He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes" (1 Chronicles 16:21-22). Same with King David, God did not allow him to be held accountable by a human judicial system, but sent Nathan to proclaim God's judgement (2 Samuel 12). David & Bathsheba's son was killed, he was not allowed to build the Temple, and God himself raise up evil against David (2 Samuel 12:11). I suspect David would of preferred to have been stoned rather than suffer that fate?
There's wheat & tares in the world, God will sort that out. But within his church, "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans...Let him who has done this be removed from among you" (1 Corinthians 5:1).. "I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world... But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you." (1 Corinthians 5: 9-13 ESV).
Not much edifying of the church can occur with pedophiles and rapist scurrying about. Jesus used a whip to sanctify the Temple, and he warned to pluck offending members from the church body (Matthew 5:29-30), so a self-imposed house cleaning is a necessity, especially when grievous moral standards are violated. "The time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God" (1 Peter 4:17)
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 15, 2023 16:22:10 GMT -5
I endorse full lawfull investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment. God never hid the sins of His dear ones. He dealt with them and it’s there for all generations to read. Full exposure. David was NOT dethroned and indeed of all his sons, Solomon was chosen of God to succeed him. Judah was not replaced by Joseph whom we may have deemed more worthy. So we are reminded that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. David ‘not knowing He was the man’ pronounced the death penalty as worthy punishment. Judah did the same, that’s the tendency we have. Do we really get the message in John. 8? There was not a single one who could cast a stone, young or old. The Bible is full of the history of God’s people being rebellious, disobedient etc and most often it was the leaders, the priest, the false prophets who led them astray. So no one need doubt God’s way because of what takes place inside the fold. Rev. 2.The charge against was, you have left your first love, to their credit, they endured, didn’t tolerate evil, critically appraised false apostles, hated the Nicolaitans (an immoral group) whom God hated. Gud did NOT request that they be removed. Matt. 24.10. We are warned, where iniquity abounds the love of many will wax cold. That is the danger. It’s good there is a wide discussion on these matters. Only we mustn’t make the same mistake as in 2 Chron.13. Everybody was asked and it was all agreed, but no one asked God! .Even if we all feel strongly for retribution there is a factor we must never forget. JESUS IS OUR SOVEREIGN LORD. Matt. 13. HE tells us there will always be tares amongst the wheat. They are NOT to be sorted out by ANY man, lest the wheat be hurt, they are to grow together until harvest, that is, the end of the age. The net Will bring in good and bad. We have no control over this. Jesus said it would be sorted out, this also, at the end of the age, by the angels. Matt. 25.31. Is the third time He teaches this. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Matt.12.20. He is very carefull not to quench the least little hope of salvation that is left in a person’s life, that’s why He doesn’t put it in man’s power. God will always be able to say, ‘I gave them time to repent but they repented not’. Just think of the potter’s work, when it is marred, He makes it over again, He doesn’t discard it like we would. Think if we put so much into a work and someone came and threw it out while we still saw a way to mend it. We can’t fathom the work that has been done since time began before the Gospel came to us. And a lot of work before we yielded. The years of work God does before sending out His servants, winning there hearts to see the need for labourers and then gently calling til they no longer say, NO! Sadly some have taken this authority on themselves to oust others both out of the work and out of fellowship and forbidding to take part because of a standard they themselves have made. When we yeilded to God we entered into a covenant with HIM. When the Gospel was preached, the workers moved on and the Church which God established was equipped with each member to the edifiying of itself in love. It still works this way, and we trust it will continue because it is of The Lord’s doing and marvellous in our eyes. The rules and laws set down in the bible of mythology have no legal standing in todays world and even once you are dead. Dead is dead. If someone commits a crime such as tax evasion, raping a kid or stealing then the appropriate people to deal with it are real people wearing real clothes and acting within real jurisdictions.
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Post by mountain on Jul 16, 2023 4:30:26 GMT -5
I endorse full lawfull investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment. God never hid the sins of His dear ones. He dealt with them and it’s there for all generations to read. Full exposure. David was NOT dethroned and indeed of all his sons, Solomon was chosen of God to succeed him. Judah was not replaced by Joseph whom we may have deemed more worthy. So we are reminded that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. David ‘not knowing He was the man’ pronounced the death penalty as worthy punishment. Judah did the same, that’s the tendency we have. Do we really get the message in John. 8? There was not a single one who could cast a stone, young or old. The Bible is full of the history of God’s people being rebellious, disobedient etc and most often it was the leaders, the priest, the false prophets who led them astray. So no one need doubt God’s way because of what takes place inside the fold. Rev. 2.The charge against was, you have left your first love, to their credit, they endured, didn’t tolerate evil, critically appraised false apostles, hated the Nicolaitans (an immoral group) whom God hated. Gud did NOT request that they be removed. Matt. 24.10. We are warned, where iniquity abounds the love of many will wax cold. That is the danger. It’s good there is a wide discussion on these matters. Only we mustn’t make the same mistake as in 2 Chron.13. Everybody was asked and it was all agreed, but no one asked God! .Even if we all feel strongly for retribution there is a factor we must never forget. JESUS IS OUR SOVEREIGN LORD. Matt. 13. HE tells us there will always be tares amongst the wheat. They are NOT to be sorted out by ANY man, lest the wheat be hurt, they are to grow together until harvest, that is, the end of the age. The net Will bring in good and bad. We have no control over this. Jesus said it would be sorted out, this also, at the end of the age, by the angels. Matt. 25.31. Is the third time He teaches this. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Matt.12.20. He is very carefull not to quench the least little hope of salvation that is left in a person’s life, that’s why He doesn’t put it in man’s power. God will always be able to say, ‘I gave them time to repent but they repented not’. Just think of the potter’s work, when it is marred, He makes it over again, He doesn’t discard it like we would. Think if we put so much into a work and someone came and threw it out while we still saw a way to mend it. We can’t fathom the work that has been done since time began before the Gospel came to us. And a lot of work before we yielded. The years of work God does before sending out His servants, winning there hearts to see the need for labourers and then gently calling til they no longer say, NO! Sadly some have taken this authority on themselves to oust others both out of the work and out of fellowship and forbidding to take part because of a standard they themselves have made. When we yeilded to God we entered into a covenant with HIM. When the Gospel was preached, the workers moved on and the Church which God established was equipped with each member to the edifiying of itself in love. It still works this way, and we trust it will continue because it is of The Lord’s doing and marvellous in our eyes. Get thee behind me, Satan! Are you willing to embrace the necessary and sensible changes that civil authorities and organisations would suggest be applied in order to prevent or reduce serious offences from happening?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 16, 2023 23:21:06 GMT -5
I endorse full lawfull investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment. God never hid the sins of His dear ones. He dealt with them and it’s there for all generations to read. Full exposure. David was NOT dethroned and indeed of all his sons, Solomon was chosen of God to succeed him. Judah was not replaced by Joseph whom we may have deemed more worthy. So we are reminded that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. David ‘not knowing He was the man’ pronounced the death penalty as worthy punishment. Judah did the same, that’s the tendency we have. Do we really get the message in John. 8? There was not a single one who could cast a stone, young or old. The Bible is full of the history of God’s people being rebellious, disobedient etc and most often it was the leaders, the priest, the false prophets who led them astray. So no one need doubt God’s way because of what takes place inside the fold. Rev. 2.The charge against was, you have left your first love, to their credit, they endured, didn’t tolerate evil, critically appraised false apostles, hated the Nicolaitans (an immoral group) whom God hated. Gud did NOT request that they be removed. Matt. 24.10. We are warned, where iniquity abounds the love of many will wax cold. That is the danger. It’s good there is a wide discussion on these matters. Only we mustn’t make the same mistake as in 2 Chron.13. Everybody was asked and it was all agreed, but no one asked God! .Even if we all feel strongly for retribution there is a factor we must never forget. JESUS IS OUR SOVEREIGN LORD. Matt. 13. HE tells us there will always be tares amongst the wheat. They are NOT to be sorted out by ANY man, lest the wheat be hurt, they are to grow together until harvest, that is, the end of the age. The net Will bring in good and bad. We have no control over this. Jesus said it would be sorted out, this also, at the end of the age, by the angels. Matt. 25.31. Is the third time He teaches this. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Matt.12.20. He is very carefull not to quench the least little hope of salvation that is left in a person’s life, that’s why He doesn’t put it in man’s power. God will always be able to say, ‘I gave them time to repent but they repented not’. Just think of the potter’s work, when it is marred, He makes it over again, He doesn’t discard it like we would. Think if we put so much into a work and someone came and threw it out while we still saw a way to mend it. We can’t fathom the work that has been done since time began before the Gospel came to us. And a lot of work before we yielded. The years of work God does before sending out His servants, winning there hearts to see the need for labourers and then gently calling til they no longer say, NO! Sadly some have taken this authority on themselves to oust others both out of the work and out of fellowship and forbidding to take part because of a standard they themselves have made. When we yeilded to God we entered into a covenant with HIM. When the Gospel was preached, the workers moved on and the Church which God established was equipped with each member to the edifiying of itself in love. It still works this way, and we trust it will continue because it is of The Lord’s doing and marvellous in our eyes. Jesus called the pharasees who knew the will of God and yet did wicked things and went against him, children of the devil, and he said the lusts of their father they will do. Anyone who commits CSA is of the devil. And John said whoever does not commit righteousness is a child of the devil, CSA is not of righteousness and is not of God, it's evil and wicked. The will of God is for us to do good and love one another as Jesus loved us, and Jesus said that we are to humble ourselves and be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven, we are not to abuse them and harm them, our job is to protect children and keep them safe from harm. People who commit CSA are evil, they should be locked up and kept away from children for the rest of their lives, not kept among them in the community, and God will also deal with them too, we are judged on everything we do good and bad, and CSA isn't just bad it's an evil act, because their hearts are wrong before God as they live by the lusts of their flesh and live by the will of their father the devil.
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Post by mountain on Jul 16, 2023 23:48:47 GMT -5
I endorse full lawfull investigation and transparency. That the abusers be handed over to the civil authorities to get their due punishment. God never hid the sins of His dear ones. He dealt with them and it’s there for all generations to read. Full exposure. David was NOT dethroned and indeed of all his sons, Solomon was chosen of God to succeed him. Judah was not replaced by Joseph whom we may have deemed more worthy. So we are reminded that our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. David ‘not knowing He was the man’ pronounced the death penalty as worthy punishment. Judah did the same, that’s the tendency we have. Do we really get the message in John. 8? There was not a single one who could cast a stone, young or old. The Bible is full of the history of God’s people being rebellious, disobedient etc and most often it was the leaders, the priest, the false prophets who led them astray. So no one need doubt God’s way because of what takes place inside the fold. Rev. 2.The charge against was, you have left your first love, to their credit, they endured, didn’t tolerate evil, critically appraised false apostles, hated the Nicolaitans (an immoral group) whom God hated. Gud did NOT request that they be removed. Matt. 24.10. We are warned, where iniquity abounds the love of many will wax cold. That is the danger. It’s good there is a wide discussion on these matters. Only we mustn’t make the same mistake as in 2 Chron.13. Everybody was asked and it was all agreed, but no one asked God! .Even if we all feel strongly for retribution there is a factor we must never forget. JESUS IS OUR SOVEREIGN LORD. Matt. 13. HE tells us there will always be tares amongst the wheat. They are NOT to be sorted out by ANY man, lest the wheat be hurt, they are to grow together until harvest, that is, the end of the age. The net Will bring in good and bad. We have no control over this. Jesus said it would be sorted out, this also, at the end of the age, by the angels. Matt. 25.31. Is the third time He teaches this. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Matt.12.20. He is very carefull not to quench the least little hope of salvation that is left in a person’s life, that’s why He doesn’t put it in man’s power. God will always be able to say, ‘I gave them time to repent but they repented not’. Just think of the potter’s work, when it is marred, He makes it over again, He doesn’t discard it like we would. Think if we put so much into a work and someone came and threw it out while we still saw a way to mend it. We can’t fathom the work that has been done since time began before the Gospel came to us. And a lot of work before we yielded. The years of work God does before sending out His servants, winning there hearts to see the need for labourers and then gently calling til they no longer say, NO! Sadly some have taken this authority on themselves to oust others both out of the work and out of fellowship and forbidding to take part because of a standard they themselves have made. When we yeilded to God we entered into a covenant with HIM. When the Gospel was preached, the workers moved on and the Church which God established was equipped with each member to the edifiying of itself in love. It still works this way, and we trust it will continue because it is of The Lord’s doing and marvellous in our eyes. Jesus called the pharasees who knew the will of God and yet did wicked things and went against him, children of the devil, and he said the lusts of their father they will do. Anyone who commits CSA is of the devil. And John said whoever does not commit righteousness is a child of the devil, CSA is not of righteousness and is not of God, it's evil and wicked. The will of God is for us to do good and love one another as Jesus loved us, and Jesus said that we are to humble ourselves and be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven, we are not to abuse them and harm them, our job is to protect children and keep them safe from harm. People who commit CSA are evil, they should be locked up and kept away from children for the rest of their lives, not kept among them in the community, and God will also deal with them too, we are judged on everything we do good and bad, and CSA isn't just bad it's an evil act, because their hearts are wrong before God as they live by the lusts of their flesh and live by the will of their father the devil. It would be difficult to find a better way to put it!
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plp
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by plp on Aug 23, 2023 8:04:44 GMT -5
So jf, what is your response to all these posts. Hi getreal I've enjoyed reading the replies which I think have been thoughtfully written...... and therefore good for me to ponder on. Lots of good points. In answer to your question, I am still pondering! I'll try and put some of my current thoughts/concerns down here. I don't think any of the responses attempt to answer the question though, as to whether the people being told to leave meetings are considered still to be our brethren. It's probably not a fair question to put to the poeple here anyway, because the decision to purge the flock of CSA transgressors has been made by the overseers and only they will know exactly the thoughts that have been going through their minds as they've done this. Because everyone is wanting transparency, I thought the overseers may have been able to add a short sentence giving more information about these people's future relationship with the church. But that might be expecting too much at present, as there is a high chance in my view that these overseers will have different views from each other on this - particularly as it does stray a bit into the sensitive area of whether there are saved people outside the 2x2 fellowship. They might want to sidestep this, while feeling happy to act on the thing they are united in - ie the removing of CSA perpetrators from the fellowship. This last week I ran into a friend of mine who is an experienced minister in a mainstream denomination and we talked a bit about these issues as he was heavily involved in the rolling out of safeguarding in his own and some neighbouring churches. I then emailed him with some questions similar to those made in our opening post and I found his response very interesting - as follows in blue "Whenever there is a safeguarding allegation against someone in the church, the Diocese will call together a Core Group who will manage the situation, including locally within the church concerned. The group will normally include the vicar and safeguarding officer from that church. The Core Group will liaise with the statutory authorities (Police, local authority etc). They will do a risk assessment which will inform decisions about what is best in terms of church involvement for the alleged offender. It might be that the police give that person bail conditions (eg no contact with certain people) and these are legally enforceable (it’s a big deal if people break bail conditions). Beyond that, the church would have decisions to make too. If the allegation was about CSA, the person would be asked to step down from any work they did that involve children and young people. The risk assessment process would consider other things too (eg risks if they continue to come along to church) and these would lead to what is called a ‘Safeguarding Agreement’. These aren’t legally enforceable, but are designed to ensure that the alleged offender can continue to come along to church, but only in a way that minimises any risks to others (so maybe coming only to services where children tend not to be present, or only sitting in a certain place, or being accompanied by someone who knows about the situation and keeps a constant eye on what they’re doing, or perhaps going to a different church). [in this minister's church on Sundays they have a number of services during the day but the later evening one basically only has adults attending] If the authorities decided not to take action, or if they did but then the person finished any prison sentence, this Diocese-led risk assessment/Safeguarding Agreement process would continue, with regular reviews. There might well still be restrictions on how the person attended church and (esp if they had been found guilty of CSA) I can’t see any way that they would be allowed to work with children again (in any case, they would be on the Sex Offenders Register, which would help to stop this too). Restrictions shouldn’t just continue ad infinitum without being reviewed. But, if they’re judged to be necessary still, they will continue. Safer Agreements are supposed to be very confidential, so only known about by the vicar, safeguarding officer, and maybe the wardens. So most of the church aren’t meant to know. Obviously court proceedings tend to make things more public, though. As to whether we would look on the offender as a brother or sister, I think the focus would be more on how they seemed to be responding, and less on what they might have done. If they seemed to be genuinely repentant, I think we would have to view them as a brother or sister still. If they didn’t, we couldn’t really. But that wouldn’t change any of the risk assessment/Safer Agreement process – this would still be applied to someone we did think was still a brother or sister."I found this interesting coming from a denomination who spent oodles of money seeking advice for getting processes agreed and then implemented. He mentions some things that I don't think our fellowship has even considered yet and that makes me rather uneasy as I think they are charging on ahead with excommunications etc without having thought the whole thing through adequately. One of the things that I still feel uneasy about is that if people are not considered our brethren then surely they are much more likely to seek out other churches. I know some have written on other threads suggesting that them doing this is fine (I think their thinking is along the lines of 'we don't want them.. they can go to church elsewhere'), but again, I don't think they've thought this through enough, because in practice that is reckless. Pedophiles shifting to other churches is just spreading the problem elsewhere, which is exactly why most of us were so unhappy when we heard of workers who have committed CSA in the past, being moved on to another state with no transparency to anyone at all. Suddenly we seem to be approving something that has similar consequences to what we previously vilified! This is why it does matter how the overseers view these people in terms of whether they are brethren or not - if they confirm they are not brethren, then they will be adding more risk of CSA to other churches (in my view). I do admit from reading this Board that many people here do seem to be fairly happy with the 'new' approach that has been taking place in various parts of the world these past few months. They certainly appear to be happier about it than I, because I am pretty concerned that what we have is actually a half-cocked approach that, for the reasons given above, is still going to cause more heart ache than it needs to. I sincerely hope I am proved wrong on this. I will be observing how things develop over the next while with great interest! Is anyone able to confirm independently that what jf has written in blue is the typical approach to handling child abuse cases in mainstream churches. If you are part of another church but don't feel you can comment on other churches generally, could you perhaps indicate whether your own church operates along similar lines to what jf describes. I share the unease described in jf's last paragraph. The overseers have not thought their approach through and I don't think this will end well at all. Sadly I foresee a confused mess looming on the horizon.
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Post by mountain on Aug 23, 2023 16:01:42 GMT -5
Hi getreal I've enjoyed reading the replies which I think have been thoughtfully written...... and therefore good for me to ponder on. Lots of good points. In answer to your question, I am still pondering! I'll try and put some of my current thoughts/concerns down here. I don't think any of the responses attempt to answer the question though, as to whether the people being told to leave meetings are considered still to be our brethren. It's probably not a fair question to put to the poeple here anyway, because the decision to purge the flock of CSA transgressors has been made by the overseers and only they will know exactly the thoughts that have been going through their minds as they've done this. Because everyone is wanting transparency, I thought the overseers may have been able to add a short sentence giving more information about these people's future relationship with the church. But that might be expecting too much at present, as there is a high chance in my view that these overseers will have different views from each other on this - particularly as it does stray a bit into the sensitive area of whether there are saved people outside the 2x2 fellowship. They might want to sidestep this, while feeling happy to act on the thing they are united in - ie the removing of CSA perpetrators from the fellowship. This last week I ran into a friend of mine who is an experienced minister in a mainstream denomination and we talked a bit about these issues as he was heavily involved in the rolling out of safeguarding in his own and some neighbouring churches. I then emailed him with some questions similar to those made in our opening post and I found his response very interesting - as follows in blue "Whenever there is a safeguarding allegation against someone in the church, the Diocese will call together a Core Group who will manage the situation, including locally within the church concerned. The group will normally include the vicar and safeguarding officer from that church. The Core Group will liaise with the statutory authorities (Police, local authority etc). They will do a risk assessment which will inform decisions about what is best in terms of church involvement for the alleged offender. It might be that the police give that person bail conditions (eg no contact with certain people) and these are legally enforceable (it’s a big deal if people break bail conditions). Beyond that, the church would have decisions to make too. If the allegation was about CSA, the person would be asked to step down from any work they did that involve children and young people. The risk assessment process would consider other things too (eg risks if they continue to come along to church) and these would lead to what is called a ‘Safeguarding Agreement’. These aren’t legally enforceable, but are designed to ensure that the alleged offender can continue to come along to church, but only in a way that minimises any risks to others (so maybe coming only to services where children tend not to be present, or only sitting in a certain place, or being accompanied by someone who knows about the situation and keeps a constant eye on what they’re doing, or perhaps going to a different church). [in this minister's church on Sundays they have a number of services during the day but the later evening one basically only has adults attending] If the authorities decided not to take action, or if they did but then the person finished any prison sentence, this Diocese-led risk assessment/Safeguarding Agreement process would continue, with regular reviews. There might well still be restrictions on how the person attended church and (esp if they had been found guilty of CSA) I can’t see any way that they would be allowed to work with children again (in any case, they would be on the Sex Offenders Register, which would help to stop this too). Restrictions shouldn’t just continue ad infinitum without being reviewed. But, if they’re judged to be necessary still, they will continue. Safer Agreements are supposed to be very confidential, so only known about by the vicar, safeguarding officer, and maybe the wardens. So most of the church aren’t meant to know. Obviously court proceedings tend to make things more public, though. As to whether we would look on the offender as a brother or sister, I think the focus would be more on how they seemed to be responding, and less on what they might have done. If they seemed to be genuinely repentant, I think we would have to view them as a brother or sister still. If they didn’t, we couldn’t really. But that wouldn’t change any of the risk assessment/Safer Agreement process – this would still be applied to someone we did think was still a brother or sister."I found this interesting coming from a denomination who spent oodles of money seeking advice for getting processes agreed and then implemented. He mentions some things that I don't think our fellowship has even considered yet and that makes me rather uneasy as I think they are charging on ahead with excommunications etc without having thought the whole thing through adequately. One of the things that I still feel uneasy about is that if people are not considered our brethren then surely they are much more likely to seek out other churches. I know some have written on other threads suggesting that them doing this is fine (I think their thinking is along the lines of 'we don't want them.. they can go to church elsewhere'), but again, I don't think they've thought this through enough, because in practice that is reckless. Pedophiles shifting to other churches is just spreading the problem elsewhere, which is exactly why most of us were so unhappy when we heard of workers who have committed CSA in the past, being moved on to another state with no transparency to anyone at all. Suddenly we seem to be approving something that has similar consequences to what we previously vilified! This is why it does matter how the overseers view these people in terms of whether they are brethren or not - if they confirm they are not brethren, then they will be adding more risk of CSA to other churches (in my view). I do admit from reading this Board that many people here do seem to be fairly happy with the 'new' approach that has been taking place in various parts of the world these past few months. They certainly appear to be happier about it than I, because I am pretty concerned that what we have is actually a half-cocked approach that, for the reasons given above, is still going to cause more heart ache than it needs to. I sincerely hope I am proved wrong on this. I will be observing how things develop over the next while with great interest! Is anyone able to confirm independently that what jf has written in blue is the typical approach to handling child abuse cases in mainstream churches. If you are part of another church but don't feel you can comment on other churches generally, could you perhaps indicate whether your own church operates along similar lines to what jf describes. I share the unease described in jf's last paragraph. The overseers have not thought their approach through and I don't think this will end well at all. Sadly I foresee a confused mess looming on the horizon. The f & W's fellowship is a unique sect in the way it has been set up and its intimacy in operation. This requires unique and specific address in matters of CSA and other abuses, not identity with other denominations where the necessary procedures and rules applicable to the F & W's are not relevant. Seeking to align the necessary procedures with what happens elsewhere has the potential to leave the sect wide open to the continuance of CSA and other abuses. In general what we are attempting to address is serious criminal activity. Certain immoral behaviour unbecoming of the trade plied by workers should also be viewed as crimes against God and the sect as part of the overall address. Much of these activities result from the unique and intimate way the sect operates. First and foremost, CRIME PREVENTION PROCEDURES should be established. These should be radical yet reasonable in the circumstances. Avoid or reduce as much as possible the circumstances which provide opportunity and temptation for CSA, other abuses and immoral behaviour to take root. Education, though important in raising and maintaining awareness, is insufficient to combat these curses. Strict operational guidelines need to be introduced as a first line of defence. Nothing is fool proof, but every reasonable step must be taken to ensure the safety of the vulnerable. Failure to do so is akin to leaving our doors and windows wide open when we leave our domiciles of citation to go out for the day and not expect a burglar to seize advantage.
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Post by fixit on Aug 23, 2023 16:23:19 GMT -5
The f & W's fellowship is a unique sect in the way it has been set up and its intimacy in operation. This requires unique and specific address in matters of CSA and other abuses, not identity with other denominations where the necessary procedures and rules applicable to the F & W's are not relevant. Seeking to align the necessary procedures with what happens elsewhere has the potential to leave the sect wide open to the continuance of CSA and other abuses. In general what we are attempting to address is serious criminal activity. Certain immoral behaviour unbecoming of the trade plied by workers should also be viewed as crimes against God and the sect as part of the overall address. Much of these activities result from the unique and intimate way the sect operates. First and foremost, CRIME PREVENTION PROCEDURES should be established. These should be radical yet reasonable in the circumstances. Avoid or reduce as much as possible the circumstances which provide opportunity and temptation for CSA, other abuses and immoral behaviour to take root. Education, though important in raising and maintaining awareness, is insufficient to combat these curses. Strict operational guidelines need to be introduced as a first line of defence. Nothing is fool proof, but every reasonable step must be taken to ensure the safety of the vulnerable. Failure to do so is akin to leaving our doors and windows wide open when we leave our domiciles of citation to go out for the day and not expect a burglar to seize advantage. I wish you would put a "village idiot" warning on your village idiot posts so that we don't miss the good ones like this where you have much to offer RAM.
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Post by mountain on Aug 24, 2023 2:30:09 GMT -5
The f & W's fellowship is a unique sect in the way it has been set up and its intimacy in operation. This requires unique and specific address in matters of CSA and other abuses, not identity with other denominations where the necessary procedures and rules applicable to the F & W's are not relevant. Seeking to align the necessary procedures with what happens elsewhere has the potential to leave the sect wide open to the continuance of CSA and other abuses. In general what we are attempting to address is serious criminal activity. Certain immoral behaviour unbecoming of the trade plied by workers should also be viewed as crimes against God and the sect as part of the overall address. Much of these activities result from the unique and intimate way the sect operates. First and foremost, CRIME PREVENTION PROCEDURES should be established. These should be radical yet reasonable in the circumstances. Avoid or reduce as much as possible the circumstances which provide opportunity and temptation for CSA, other abuses and immoral behaviour to take root. Education, though important in raising and maintaining awareness, is insufficient to combat these curses. Strict operational guidelines need to be introduced as a first line of defence. Nothing is fool proof, but every reasonable step must be taken to ensure the safety of the vulnerable. Failure to do so is akin to leaving our doors and windows wide open when we leave our domiciles of citation to go out for the day and not expect a burglar to seize advantage. I wish you would put a "village idiot" warning on your village idiot posts so that we don't miss the good ones like this where you have much to offer RAM. My dear fixit, you should know better. You know me by now. I have often given account of my participation on this board; ie I am not only here to give vent to serious discussion on various topics, but also to 'entertain.' Often these two approaches are well separated in the ensuing discussions, but yes all too often both approaches appear in the same post, causing some degree of confusion. In a bid to rationalise my approach, I appended the verification stamp of (Virgs) at the end of my serious posts where I thought this was particularly needed. This made resolute the statements in these posts, having the Virgs mark of approval, where it was considered Virgs would readily endorse the contents. This separated the serious from the entertainment, at least to some degree. Not once did anyone challenge any posts I made that was endorsed (Virgs). This is surely testimony to the accuracy, validity and appropriateness of these posts. Alas, Virgs vacated this board and my verification source was lost. I hastily sought a substitute invigilator for my serious offerings and settled on our fine Verns, but unfortunately her participation on the board dwindled, making her endorsement of lesser significance. What next? Wally of course! Unfortunately I have only used Wally sparingly, but hope to use his endorsement more regularly in future. I receive much encouragement for my entertaining posts, which is itself pleasing with regards to the efforts employed. This entertainment certainly does not please everyone, but there again the 2x2 system is similar. Should things be halted on account of those who do not approve, or should the show go on? Your suggestion of a village idiot marker for relevant posts is a good one, similar to my explanation above which addressed the serious side. Maybe 'Board idiot' would be more appropriate? You are obviously making an attempt to suggest a 'buyer beware' warning and that is good. I have made several attempts to do so, but posting in haste does have its omissions and drawbacks. I will try to use the (Wally) marker for the more serious stuff, but cannot guarantee its application in every case. My late mother, 2x2 until the end, used to say.... 'You have to act a bit daft to keep wise.'
Words that I have regularly proved true over the years. People who are intelligent and serious and who display little humour, are to be avoided. THey may come across as 'wise' but in fact they possess a sinister streak. Keep up the good work.
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 24, 2023 3:31:58 GMT -5
I think one of the big misses at present is the lack of a statement around the standing of people around the world who have recently been asked to no longer attend meetings because of CSA convictions or allegations. At present, people will understandably be confused whether such people are to be considered brethren or not. If they are still considered brethren, how are these people to have interaction with their brethren going forward? Presumably some friends (maybe some of those without children) will still meet up socially with them – if so, then why can’t they also meet with such people in recognised fellowship (which it seems is now being permanently shut off from them)? If they are no longer considered our brethren in Christ, then it feels like we have reached a point where ‘not a sin so great but He’ll forgive it’ seems in actual practice to be rather a hollow (or false?) statement for those in the meetings. If they are no longer considered our brethren, then because of something done in their past, these people would effectively be viewed as permanently ‘out of Christ without a Saviour’ (because they are no longer counted as brethren and with no way open for them to come back). Something really feels strange and conflicting here to me. Hopefully some overseer will provide some real transparency on this subject for the friends. Interestingly, if a statement is made that these folk are still considered brethren (or even if they are considered as ‘possibly brethren’!) then it would be the first time as far as I know of a formal acknowledgement that there may be saved people outside the 2x2 meetings. For me, considering offenders as brethren is dependent on their repentance.
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