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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 1:40:34 GMT -5
Wally, I have a question for you. I am not gay, lesbian or trans so you can talk to me 🙂. You study a lot and research meanings of words and try to get the context right for your interpretations. Do you get frustrated with workers who know less than you and make mistakes in meetings? I remember an elder corrected me about something after a gospel meeting and I am ashamed to say I didn’t take it well. I was too proud. I was embarrassed. I believed I was inspired by god I guess. Does it bother you that workers don’t have the kind of learning about scriptures that you seem to value so highly. I remember hearing that the workers out in eastern canada were taking some class or classes about the Bible, the history of it, basics. I guess the friends got tired of them making mistakes. Do you think the workers should have some theological education? I suppose such knowledge might undermine what they have been taught? Because if you read only with a bias looking for proof of what you already believe you will not in effect not learn anything truly valid. Just curious. I know that pain too, I've been corrected DURING meetings twice now. Just recently I even had someone that I confided in name me in meeting and told what I did wrong in the past. VERY painful. AND slightly inaccurate. Yes, that can be frustrating when you know a worker/elder-bishop/deacon say something that is incorrect even obviously incorrect. I would hesitate at formal education that can be just as wrong. I would suggest that one at least do some research into what you are speaking about from the bible. It's EXTREMELY easy to do nowadays there isn't much of an excuse. One doesn't need formal education to learn anything or access anything at all. I started out with the KJV, Merriam-Webster's and an older Ungers Bible dictionary in the beginning (given to me by RR our local worker) then apply PRAYER to everything.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 1:43:47 GMT -5
It's not about accommodating sin, it's how we treat those who are born with a different genetic makeup to us, and cannot help what they are. The church has been accommodating sin with victims for a long time, already. Read Maria's post, and the racism she encountered. We had a "Coloured" South African engineer here working in the Oil and Gas industry, and he was professing. He was telling us about the racism he endured in some American conventions. Is that not OK? The LGBTQ+ people are still real people with real feelings, and how we treat them is a test of our Christian Spirit. Yeah, right. Every sin is becoming a medical issue now. Not buying it.
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Post by snow on May 17, 2023 14:14:45 GMT -5
It's not about accommodating sin, it's how we treat those who are born with a different genetic makeup to us, and cannot help what they are. The church has been accommodating sin with victims for a long time, already. Read Maria's post, and the racism she encountered. We had a "Coloured" South African engineer here working in the Oil and Gas industry, and he was professing. He was telling us about the racism he endured in some American conventions. Is that not OK? The LGBTQ+ people are still real people with real feelings, and how we treat them is a test of our Christian Spirit. Yeah, right. Every sin is becoming a medical issue now. Not buying it. Maybe they were never sins and it was just an ancient tribe of people that did not have an understanding about how biological humans can be so very different from each other?
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Post by neighbour on May 17, 2023 14:28:55 GMT -5
Yeah, right. Every sin is becoming a medical issue now. Not buying it. Maybe they were never sins and it was just an ancient tribe of people that did not have an understanding about how biological humans can be so very different from each other? It was eye-opening to learn that there are more than two combinations of sex chromosomes that result in a viable fetus. Some people with female reproductive structures have male (XY) chromosomes (Swyer syndrome), and 1 in between 20,000 and 30,000 males have female (XX) chromosomes, with variance from normal male phenotype to genital ambiguity. Anyone who says that gender is determined purely by chromosomes, and that it's a binary result between two combinations of genitals is literally ignorant of medical reality. Any genetic specialist knows it's not true. I like to freak people out by informing them about hens that turn into roosters if they have a damaged ovary.
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Post by getreal on May 17, 2023 14:48:58 GMT -5
Wally, I have a question for you. I am not gay, lesbian or trans so you can talk to me 🙂. You study a lot and research meanings of words and try to get the context right for your interpretations. Do you get frustrated with workers who know less than you and make mistakes in meetings? I remember an elder corrected me about something after a gospel meeting and I am ashamed to say I didn’t take it well. I was too proud. I was embarrassed. I believed I was inspired by god I guess. Does it bother you that workers don’t have the kind of learning about scriptures that you seem to value so highly. I remember hearing that the workers out in eastern canada were taking some class or classes about the Bible, the history of it, basics. I guess the friends got tired of them making mistakes. Do you think the workers should have some theological education? I suppose such knowledge might undermine what they have been taught? Because if you read only with a bias looking for proof of what you already believe you will not in effect not learn anything truly valid. Just curious. I know that pain too, I've been corrected DURING meetings twice now. Just recently I even had someone that I confided in name me in meeting and told what I did wrong in the past. VERY painful. AND slightly inaccurate. Yes, that can be frustrating when you know a worker/elder-bishop/deacon say something that is incorrect even obviously incorrect. I would hesitate at formal education that can be just as wrong. I would suggest that one at least do some research into what you are speaking about from the bible. It's EXTREMELY easy to do nowadays there isn't much of an excuse. One doesn't need formal education to learn anything or access anything at all. I started out with the KJV, Merriam-Webster's and an older Ungers Bible dictionary in the beginning (given to me by RR our local worker) then apply PRAYER to everything. Yes, it is hard to be corrected but I really deserved it. He did it with may I say, grace. Its a painful memory to me more how I reacted to it but yours sound quite hurtful. I am quite sure workers are finding sermons online much like an old worker many of us know was famous for getting his from the readers digest. I wonder if roaming around the web is the safest mode of learning as there are so many less than qualified or accurate or unbiased sources around to be misled by. Many posts seem to be concerned with the lack of knowledge workers start in the work with. I wonder if the overseers who are left standing, whatever they may come to be called, if they could agree on one unbiased, sound, basic course on the Bible came to be if that might be deemed a good thing. Everyone having the same basic grounding.
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Post by snow on May 17, 2023 14:50:53 GMT -5
Maybe they were never sins and it was just an ancient tribe of people that did not have an understanding about how biological humans can be so very different from each other? It was eye-opening to learn that there are more than two combinations of sex chromosomes that result in a viable fetus. Some people with female reproductive structures have male (XY) chromosomes (Swyer syndrome), and 1 in between 20,000 and 30,000 males have female (XX) chromosomes, with variance from normal male phenotype to genital ambiguity. Anyone who says that gender is determined purely by chromosomes, and that it's a binary result between two combinations of genitals is literally ignorant of medical reality. Any genetic specialist knows it's not true. I like to freak people out by informing them about hens that turn into roosters if they have a damaged ovary. Exactly and there is also the hormonal impact on the brain that drives who we are sexually. If a person can be born with both genitalia then it's absolutely possible to be born with a male body and not be oriented to that gender otherwise and vice versa.
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Post by getreal on May 17, 2023 15:25:12 GMT -5
The Bible was never intended to provide guidance regarding science let alone 21st century science and understanding. There is far more about not judging and loving our fellow people than anything remotely to do with someone’s gender or sexual orientation. If nothing was understood about this at the time it was written it could not be addressed. Like some have said, prayer is the answer and looking at what is written in the Bible in its it’s totally rather than hitching your wagon to one or two verses in the ot and nt that are ambiguous when looked at in context and scholars are still studying original language and calling into question how these passages have been interpreted. Whoa…hardly took a breath.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 17, 2023 15:29:05 GMT -5
It's not about accommodating sin, it's how we treat those who are born with a different genetic makeup to us, and cannot help what they are. The church has been accommodating sin with victims for a long time, already. Read Maria's post, and the racism she encountered. We had a "Coloured" South African engineer here working in the Oil and Gas industry, and he was professing. He was telling us about the racism he endured in some American conventions. Is that not OK? The LGBTQ+ people are still real people with real feelings, and how we treat them is a test of our Christian Spirit. Yeah, right. Every sin is becoming a medical issue now. Not buying it. How you could extrapolate that from what I posted is beyond me. You must have a limited comprehension.
Yes, the psychologists can often find a syndrome for various behaviours, but that makes it no less real, nor does it diminish the feelings of the person involved, be it ADHD, Bi-Polar, Gay,Transgender or whatever. If anything it gives us as Christians an opportunity to know more about the issue and treat the person accordingly, with compassion and gentleness. (Colossians 3:12)
And to be clear, nowhere have I said that sin is acceptable, just in case you are thinking that.
If Maria had been treated in the right way, and racism and sexism hadn't abounded, she might still be in the work today.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 16:48:12 GMT -5
Maybe they were never sins and it was just an ancient tribe of people that did not have an understanding about how biological humans can be so very different from each other? It was eye-opening to learn that there are more than two combinations of sex chromosomes that result in a viable fetus. Some people with female reproductive structures have male (XY) chromosomes (Swyer syndrome), and 1 in between 20,000 and 30,000 males have female (XX) chromosomes, with variance from normal male phenotype to genital ambiguity. Anyone who says that gender is determined purely by chromosomes, and that it's a binary result between two combinations of genitals is literally ignorant of medical reality. Any genetic specialist knows it's not true. I like to freak people out by informing them about hens that turn into roosters if they have a damaged ovary. Hermaphrodites are not unheard of but are not normal something went wrong. Swyer syndrome and the XX syndrome are disorders. Biology trumps "medical reality" any day of the week. Biology doesn't care about feelings or opinions. They are just about all 100% sterile whether leaning male or female. Since the '70s about 10 known cases of female leaning had children(20?) and 1 male leaning fathered a child. It's what a genetic specialist would call a dead end or non-viable for procreation.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 16:51:38 GMT -5
It was eye-opening to learn that there are more than two combinations of sex chromosomes that result in a viable fetus. Some people with female reproductive structures have male (XY) chromosomes (Swyer syndrome), and 1 in between 20,000 and 30,000 males have female (XX) chromosomes, with variance from normal male phenotype to genital ambiguity. Anyone who says that gender is determined purely by chromosomes, and that it's a binary result between two combinations of genitals is literally ignorant of medical reality. Any genetic specialist knows it's not true. I like to freak people out by informing them about hens that turn into roosters if they have a damaged ovary. Exactly and there is also the hormonal impact on the brain that drives who we are sexually. If a person can be born with both genitalia then it's absolutely possible to be born with a male body and not be oriented to that gender otherwise and vice versa. As I posted before with a link I believe. A female body with a male brain is not viable it would die. A Male body with a female brain would do the same.
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Post by christiansburg on May 17, 2023 17:07:03 GMT -5
Wally, I have a question for you. I am not gay, lesbian or trans so you can talk to me 🙂. You study a lot and research meanings of words and try to get the context right for your interpretations. Do you get frustrated with workers who know less than you and make mistakes in meetings? I remember an elder corrected me about something after a gospel meeting and I am ashamed to say I didn’t take it well. I was too proud. I was embarrassed. I believed I was inspired by god I guess. Does it bother you that workers don’t have the kind of learning about scriptures that you seem to value so highly. I remember hearing that the workers out in eastern canada were taking some class or classes about the Bible, the history of it, basics. I guess the friends got tired of them making mistakes. Do you think the workers should have some theological education? I suppose such knowledge might undermine what they have been taught? Because if you read only with a bias looking for proof of what you already believe you will not in effect not learn anything truly valid. Just curious. I know that pain too, I've been corrected DURING meetings twice now. Just recently I even had someone that I confided in name me in meeting and told what I did wrong in the past. VERY painful. AND slightly inaccurate. Yes, that can be frustrating when you know a worker/elder-bishop/deacon say something that is incorrect even obviously incorrect. I would hesitate at formal education that can be just as wrong. I would suggest that one at least do some research into what you are speaking about from the bible. It's EXTREMELY easy to do nowadays there isn't much of an excuse. One doesn't need formal education to learn anything or access anything at all. I started out with the KJV, Merriam-Webster's and an older Ungers Bible dictionary in the beginning (given to me by RR our local worker) then apply PRAYER to everything. I have a sister who had been professing 5-6 years and while giving her testimony was interrupted by a deacon with the comment "you are wrong about what you say." She snapped by at him and said well "...I am not finished yet." He quickly silenced himself. Wish I had been there. I have always been an advocate of theological education. I think it would do us a lot of good but some do frown on that. I think that is another area where we all come short. For the last two years I have enrolled in the Israel Bible Center for further education. It's very enlightening and goes back to original Greek writings and later translations. We have so many things wrong when it come to understanding the Scriptures in their original meaning.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 17:07:25 GMT -5
Yeah, right. Every sin is becoming a medical issue now. Not buying it. How you could extrapolate that from what I posted is beyond me. You must have a limited comprehension.
Yes, the psychologists can often find a syndrome for various behaviours, but that makes it no less real, nor does it diminish the feelings of the person involved, be it ADHD, Bi-Polar, Gay,Transgender or whatever. If anything it gives us as Christians an opportunity to know more about the issue and treat the person accordingly, with compassion and gentleness. (Colossians 3:12)
And to be clear, nowhere have I said that sin is acceptable, just in case you are thinking that.
If Maria had been treated in the right way, and racism and sexism hadn't abounded, she might still be in the work today.
You brought up the medical issue not me. Maybe you can't comprehend your own posts which is what it appears to be. Comparing ADHD and Bipolar with Homosexuality or Trans whatever is pretty disingenuous. If by compassion and gentleness you mean helping them turn away from that or fix those things, right there with ya, but if it's the worlds living "my own truth" can't we all just get along crap, no thanks and good luck you'll need it... Heads up its already in motion(Minnesota, California, UN) to make pedo's a sexual orientation because they are "born that way" it's just a medical issue...yeah right...
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 17:20:10 GMT -5
I know that pain too, I've been corrected DURING meetings twice now. Just recently I even had someone that I confided in name me in meeting and told what I did wrong in the past. VERY painful. AND slightly inaccurate. Yes, that can be frustrating when you know a worker/elder-bishop/deacon say something that is incorrect even obviously incorrect. I would hesitate at formal education that can be just as wrong. I would suggest that one at least do some research into what you are speaking about from the bible. It's EXTREMELY easy to do nowadays there isn't much of an excuse. One doesn't need formal education to learn anything or access anything at all. I started out with the KJV, Merriam-Webster's and an older Ungers Bible dictionary in the beginning (given to me by RR our local worker) then apply PRAYER to everything. I have a sister who had been professing 5-6 years and while giving her testimony was interrupted by a deacon with the comment "you are wrong about what you say." She snapped by at him and said well "...I am not finished yet." He quickly silenced himself. Wish I had been there. I have always been an advocate of theological education. I think it would do us a lot of good but some do frown on that. I think that is another area where we all come short. For the last two years I have enrolled in the Israel Bible Center for further education. It's very enlightening and goes back to original Greek writings and later translations. We have so many things wrong when it come to understanding the Scriptures in their original meaning. Well done sister...she was smarter, faster and on her toes than me I must say...
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Post by snow on May 17, 2023 17:28:22 GMT -5
Exactly and there is also the hormonal impact on the brain that drives who we are sexually. If a person can be born with both genitalia then it's absolutely possible to be born with a male body and not be oriented to that gender otherwise and vice versa. As a posted before with a link I believe. A female body with a male brain is not viable it would die. A Male body with a female brain would do the same. I'm not sure what you mean by a male brain? There is no reason why a person can identify as the opposite gender from their body without dying. In fact, we know that they can survive.
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Post by snow on May 17, 2023 17:30:50 GMT -5
How you could extrapolate that from what I posted is beyond me. You must have a limited comprehension. Yes, the psychologists can often find a syndrome for various behaviours, but that makes it no less real, nor does it diminish the feelings of the person involved, be it ADHD, Bi-Polar, Gay,Transgender or whatever. If anything it gives us as Christians an opportunity to know more about the issue and treat the person accordingly, with compassion and gentleness. (Colossians 3:12) And to be clear, nowhere have I said that sin is acceptable, just in case you are thinking that. If Maria had been treated in the right way, and racism and sexism hadn't abounded, she might still be in the work today.
You brought up the medical issue not me. Maybe you can't comprehend your own posts which is what it appears to be. Comparing ADHD and Bipolar with Homosexuality or Trans whatever is pretty disingenuous. If by compassion and gentleness you mean helping them turn away from that or fix those things, right there with ya, but if it's the worlds living "my own truth" can't we all just get along crap, no thanks and good luck you'll need it... Heads up its already in motion(Minnesota, California, UN) to make pedo's a sexual orientation because they are "born that way" it's just a medical issue...yeah right... Any medical condition that ends up harming others is still treated the same way. Jail time. So it really doesn't matter if it's a medical condition. It could be, but if they act on it, it will harm a child and therefore be subject to justice.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 17, 2023 18:31:48 GMT -5
You brought up the medical issue not me. Maybe you can't comprehend your own posts which is what it appears to be. Comparing ADHD and Bipolar with Homosexuality or Trans whatever is pretty disingenuous. If by compassion and gentleness you mean helping them turn away from that or fix those things, right there with ya, but if it's the worlds living "my own truth" can't we all just get along crap, no thanks and good luck you'll need it... Heads up its already in motion(Minnesota, California, UN) to make pedo's a sexual orientation because they are "born that way" it's just a medical issue...yeah right... Any medical condition that ends up harming others is still treated the same way. Jail time. So it really doesn't matter if it's a medical condition. It could be, but if they act on it, it will harm a child and therefore be subject to justice. Exactly - I decided to keep my powder dry with that logic, knowing Wally would reply exactly as he did.
It's what they act on, if it's illegal and/or harms others that counts, or from a Christian perspective, is a clearly defined sin. Eg; a Pychopath killing someone, a Paedophile commiting CSA
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 17, 2023 18:50:39 GMT -5
Any medical condition that ends up harming others is still treated the same way. Jail time. So it really doesn't matter if it's a medical condition. It could be, but if they act on it, it will harm a child and therefore be subject to justice. Exactly - I decided to keep my powder dry with that logic, knowing Wally would reply exactly as he did.
It's what they act on, if it's illegal and/or harms others that counts, or from a Christian perspective, is a clearly defined sin. Eg; a Pychopath killing someone, a Paedophile commiting CSA
Some find it much easier to attack the homosexuals and transexuals than to put right what is wrong in the church.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 23:59:27 GMT -5
As a posted before with a link I believe. A female body with a male brain is not viable it would die. A Male body with a female brain would do the same. I'm not sure what you mean by a male brain? There is no reason why a person can identify as the opposite gender from their body without dying. In fact, we know that they can survive. You suggested if some can be born with TWO kinds of genitalia then they could be in a male body with? Next logical conclusion would be a female brain.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2023 0:07:15 GMT -5
You brought up the medical issue not me. Maybe you can't comprehend your own posts which is what it appears to be. Comparing ADHD and Bipolar with Homosexuality or Trans whatever is pretty disingenuous. If by compassion and gentleness you mean helping them turn away from that or fix those things, right there with ya, but if it's the worlds living "my own truth" can't we all just get along crap, no thanks and good luck you'll need it... Heads up its already in motion(Minnesota, California, UN) to make pedo's a sexual orientation because they are "born that way" it's just a medical issue...yeah right... Any medical condition that ends up harming others is still treated the same way. Jail time. So it really doesn't matter if it's a medical condition. It could be, but if they act on it, it will harm a child and therefore be subject to justice. They are heading towards making it "legal" no jail time required. The UN will try the "its a sexual orientation diagnosis" therefore protected by UN international law. No jail time needed.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2023 0:08:20 GMT -5
Any medical condition that ends up harming others is still treated the same way. Jail time. So it really doesn't matter if it's a medical condition. It could be, but if they act on it, it will harm a child and therefore be subject to justice. Exactly - I decided to keep my powder dry with that logic, knowing Wally would reply exactly as he did.
It's what they act on, if it's illegal and/or harms others that counts, or from a Christian perspective, is a clearly defined sin. Eg; a Pychopath killing someone, a Paedophile commiting CSA
Swing and a miss...it went over your headed.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 18, 2023 0:11:40 GMT -5
Any medical condition that ends up harming others is still treated the same way. Jail time. So it really doesn't matter if it's a medical condition. It could be, but if they act on it, it will harm a child and therefore be subject to justice. They are heading towards making it "legal" no jail time required. The UN will try the "its a sexual orientation diagnosis" therefore protected by UN international law. No jail time needed. What are they heading towards making legal and why is the UN involved. Can you provide some links please?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2023 0:49:59 GMT -5
They are heading towards making it "legal" no jail time required. The UN will try the "its a sexual orientation diagnosis" therefore protected by UN international law. No jail time needed. What are they heading towards making legal and why is the UN involved. Can you provide some links please? Look through my posts it couldn't be more than 2 or 3 weeks back...
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 18, 2023 1:04:19 GMT -5
What are they heading towards making legal and why is the UN involved. Can you provide some links please? Look through my posts it couldn't be more than 2 or 3 weeks back... What am I looking for?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2023 1:05:13 GMT -5
Look through my posts it couldn't be more than 2 or 3 weeks back... What am I looking for? UN making it possible for legalizing pedo's.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 18, 2023 1:15:23 GMT -5
UN making it possible for legalizing pedo's. Can you provide a link to a UN site where they say that?
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jf
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Post by jf on May 18, 2023 2:50:20 GMT -5
The LGBTQ+ people are still real people with real feelings, and how we treat them is a test of our Christian Spirit. Exactly. And the same applies to pedophiles. Rather than the starting point being to ban them from all fellowship, the 'Christian Spirit' route surely is to offer them fellowship with proper safeguards introduced alongside. It's not hard to do- eg they could have fellowship in a meeting where there are no minors present and a responsible elder. Easy peasy. The idea of a blanket exclusive approach goes right across who Jesus is and smacks of harshness and the punishment of man. I fear that is what we are seeing promoted here by some. Safeguarding not sanctions please. No watering down of Christianity.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 18, 2023 3:20:13 GMT -5
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 18, 2023 4:00:57 GMT -5
From my reading of it, it appears that the reporting by the likes of Carlson and his ilk is malicious and not based on fact. Reading what the Jurists said, it is clear that they were referring to consensual sex between similar age minors. ie. two 15 year olds in the case of NZ where the age of consent is 16. I have never heard of the police here prosecuting a 15 year old for having consensual sex. However I know the police have prosecuted 18 year olds for having consensual sex with a 15 year old. The report is quite long and demanding reading. It reinforces that the UN is urging states to protect children. It's interesting that in the USA there are states where a minor can be married with parental and judicial approval.
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