rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
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Post by rudyw on Feb 24, 2023 19:02:37 GMT -5
Bob’s stories are news to me, but I believe him. It’s disheartening & truly distressing. I haven’t reprofessed, but have been going to Gospel Meetings again. The main reason I’ve been going back is because I missed some of the people, and it feels nice to sit with them and chat afterwards. However, if this sort of thing goes on, ‘shutting people out of the Kingdom’, then I’m not interested in professing again. Honestly, I don’t believe in the Living Witness doctrine anyways, and I know I’m saved now apart from the Workers, so professing for me would simply be like‘getting permission’ to participate. We’ll see what happens. I regularly go to my Mom’s for Breaking of Bread & fellowship.I know that if they knew this they’d shut me out of the kingdom. But honestly, I’m not going to abandon my mom over a Worker who doesn’t really care for me anyways. My youngest & her husband are showing an interest in doing this also (she was raised in a non-2x2 home meeting, which broke apart when the Elder left his wife for another woman!) There’s a very small group of them still meeting in my hometown, but I don’t get along with the elder at all. He’s pushy & opinionated, and can be very vulgar when no women are around, so I have no desire to go back to that group either! I believe in the 2x2 pattern and all, but something has gone wrong with the Worker system. I have to say, being on this board has revealed some things to me that I would never have been able to find out elsewhere. ]I think Cooney had it right, & when they got rid of him everything started to go to hell. I thought things were improving with the 2x2s, but it sounds like I was wrong. My intention was not to disillusion you. I am like you in that I believe the 2x2 pattern is perhaps the best. In fact, while I was growing up all I was instructed about 2x2-ism was basically Cooney ideology. Being totally unaware of how the worker system operated, I believed and was satisfied that our own conscience before God was the only thing that mattered, and professing was merely an expression of my intentions to manifest virtuous Christian behaviors. Ironically, 2 years before I professed I discovered that everything a worker said cannot be true -- I still had not fully understood that it was popularly believed that what the workers said had to be from God. It didn't prevent me from professing, because I was raised in a family who frankly acknowledged the occasional "human weakness and folly" of workers, but respected them the way they respected all the friends were associated with. What destroyed my relationship with the ministry was the political maneuverings that prevail among them to a far greater extent than I have found among the friends themselves. But really, it is unavoidable -- simply because "organization is always about control". My thought is that if one can enjoy the fellowship and remain conscientiously independent from the ministry (outside of the governing dictates of individual workers), one can live quite comfortably. But you will have to be permanently conscious that critiquing anything about the ministry runs the risk of becoming expendable. The ministry will not let you embarrass them. I I understand you weren’t trying to disillusion me. I’ll reply later. The wife & I have to drive across the county to help my oldest with something, so no time right now.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 19:49:06 GMT -5
I've experienced the shunning, not fun being cut off... Have you experienced the attempts to have your relatives and personal friends in other states to sign agreements to shun you as well? Nope, but shunning can be done by any kind of folk or any amount of folk.
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rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
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Post by rudyw on Feb 24, 2023 23:39:58 GMT -5
Bob’s stories are news to me, but I believe him. It’s disheartening & truly distressing. I haven’t reprofessed, but have been going to Gospel Meetings again. The main reason I’ve been going back is because I missed some of the people, and it feels nice to sit with them and chat afterwards. However, if this sort of thing goes on, ‘shutting people out of the Kingdom’, then I’m not interested in professing again. Honestly, I don’t believe in the Living Witness doctrine anyways, and I know I’m saved now apart from the Workers, so professing for me would simply be like‘getting permission’ to participate. We’ll see what happens. I regularly go to my Mom’s for Breaking of Bread & fellowship.I know that if they knew this they’d shut me out of the kingdom. But honestly, I’m not going to abandon my mom over a Worker who doesn’t really care for me anyways. My youngest & her husband are showing an interest in doing this also (she was raised in a non-2x2 home meeting, which broke apart when the Elder left his wife for another woman!) There’s a very small group of them still meeting in my hometown, but I don’t get along with the elder at all. He’s pushy & opinionated, and can be very vulgar when no women are around, so I have no desire to go back to that group either! I believe in the 2x2 pattern and all, but something has gone wrong with the Worker system. I have to say, being on this board has revealed some things to me that I would never have been able to find out elsewhere. ]I think Cooney had it right, & when they got rid of him everything started to go to hell. I thought things were improving with the 2x2s, but it sounds like I was wrong. My intention was not to disillusion you. I am like you in that I believe the 2x2 pattern is perhaps the best. In fact, while I was growing up all I was instructed about 2x2-ism was basically Cooney ideology. Being totally unaware of how the worker system operated, I believed and was satisfied that our own conscience before God was the only thing that mattered, and professing was merely an expression of my intentions to manifest virtuous Christian behaviors. Ironically, 2 years before I professed I discovered that everything a worker said cannot be true -- I still had not fully understood that it was popularly believed that what the workers said had to be from God. It didn't prevent me from professing, because I was raised in a family who frankly acknowledged the occasional "human weakness and folly" of workers, but respected them the way they respected all the friends were associated with. What destroyed my relationship with the ministry was the political maneuverings that prevail among them to a far greater extent than I have found among the friends themselves. But really, it is unavoidable -- simply because "organization is always about control". My thought is that if one can enjoy the fellowship and remain conscientiously independent from the ministry (outside of the governing dictates of individual workers), one can live quite comfortably. But you will have to be permanently conscious that critiquing anything about the ministry runs the risk of becoming expendable. The ministry will not let you embarrass them. Bob, I appreciate your input & your insight. I’m not 100% sure what the future holds for me, but I do know this: I’m going to continue going to Gospel Meeting, but I have no intention of reprocessing right now. I’m not confident about the Worker situation. I’m definitely a Cooneyite at heart, & not a die hard 2x2 (you know the difference). I’m going to continue the Gospel Meetings simply because I enjoy the preaching, hymns & the fellowship with old friends. My guess is that I’ll simply start an independent house group, which my conscience allows and which I’m perfectly capable of doing, God only knows though. But honestly, I don’t believe I could re-profess right now (although it would be an easy path to instant ‘fellowship’ on a large scale). To reprofess would be insincere & pretentious because I’ve never lost my faith.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 25, 2023 1:07:45 GMT -5
My intention was not to disillusion you. I am like you in that I believe the 2x2 pattern is perhaps the best. In fact, while I was growing up all I was instructed about 2x2-ism was basically Cooney ideology. Being totally unaware of how the worker system operated, I believed and was satisfied that our own conscience before God was the only thing that mattered, and professing was merely an expression of my intentions to manifest virtuous Christian behaviors. Ironically, 2 years before I professed I discovered that everything a worker said cannot be true -- I still had not fully understood that it was popularly believed that what the workers said had to be from God. It didn't prevent me from professing, because I was raised in a family who frankly acknowledged the occasional "human weakness and folly" of workers, but respected them the way they respected all the friends were associated with. What destroyed my relationship with the ministry was the political maneuverings that prevail among them to a far greater extent than I have found among the friends themselves. But really, it is unavoidable -- simply because "organization is always about control". My thought is that if one can enjoy the fellowship and remain conscientiously independent from the ministry (outside of the governing dictates of individual workers), one can live quite comfortably. But you will have to be permanently conscious that critiquing anything about the ministry runs the risk of becoming expendable. The ministry will not let you embarrass them. Bob, I appreciate your input & your insight. I’m not 100% sure what the future holds for me, but I do know this: I’m going to continue going to Gospel Meeting, but I have no intention of reprocessing right now. I’m not confident about the Worker situation. I’m definitely a Cooneyite at heart, & not a die hard 2x2 (you know the difference). I’m going to continue the Gospel Meetings simply because I enjoy the preaching, hymns & the fellowship with old friends. My guess is that I’ll simply start an independent house group, which my conscience allows and which I’m perfectly capable of doing, God only knows though. But honestly, I don’t believe I could re-profess right now (although it would be an easy path to instant ‘fellowship’ on a large scale). To reprofess would be insincere & pretentious because I’ve never lost my faith. I can appreciate how you feel. A few years after I quit going to meetings I went back east to be with my Mom who had to go to convention by herself. I almost backed out on the way to the convention grounds, but for her I kept on going. Turned out I had so many life long close friends there that I didn't have such a bad time. Of course, the small earring I had in my left ear served to avoid any kind of awkward comments I could have been confronted with.
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Post by Annan on Feb 25, 2023 5:43:57 GMT -5
I've experienced the shunning, not fun being cut off... Have you experienced the attempts to have your relatives and personal friends in other states to sign agreements to shun you as well? The things I learn here are amazing. Not surprising, but flabbergasting. I grew up where 2x2's were few and far between. The only interaction other than a handful of 2x2 folks was at the occasional special meeting and convention, where there were no children my age or anyone my parents interacted with other than saying 'hello'. When the workers would come to the house, some were very nice and interacted with us children. Of course, this was when we were under our parents' control. I remember a few times being at my parents' house as an adult when the workers were there (had I know they were there, I would have stayed home), and they couldn't even bring themselves to look at me let alone say hello. My parents put up with their crap till the day they said my unprofessing mother was going to hell. My dad threw them out. He said they had no problem sleeping in the bed she made on clean sheets she washed and eating the food she prepared.
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Post by snow on Mar 1, 2023 15:13:59 GMT -5
They tell people that they can't be baptized so I guess they think they can tell people they can't profess? Makes no sense to me though. How do they know the heart of a person and what gives them the right to think they do? And, since they believe that you can't be saved and go to heaven without professing as a 2x2 and being baptized as a 2x2, that puts their obstruction of both those two things in an even more nasty light. They literally think they have the right to decide whether someone goes to hell or not if they really believe what they are preaching. Bob’s stories are news to me, but I believe him. It’s disheartening & truly distressing. I haven’t reprofessed, but have been going to Gospel Meetings again. The main reason I’ve been going back is because I missed some of the people, and it feels nice to sit with them and chat afterwards. However, if this sort of thing goes on, ‘shutting people out of the Kingdom’, then I’m not interested in professing again. Honestly, I don’t believe in the Living Witness doctrine anyways, and I know I’m saved now apart from the Workers, so professing for me would simply be like‘getting permission’ to participate. We’ll see what happens. I regularly go to my Mom’s for Breaking of Bread & fellowship.I know that if they knew this they’d shut me out of the kingdom. But honestly, I’m not going to abandon my mom over a Worker who doesn’t really care for me anyways. My youngest & her husband are showing an interest in doing this also (she was raised in a non-2x2 home meeting, which broke apart when the Elder left his wife for another woman!) There’s a very small group of them still meeting in my hometown, but I don’t get along with the elder at all. He’s pushy & opinionated, and can be very vulgar when no women are around, so I have no desire to go back to that group either! I believe in the 2x2 pattern and all, but something has gone wrong with the Worker system. I have to say, being on this board has revealed some things to me that I would never have been able to find out elsewhere. ]I think Cooney had it right, & when they got rid of him everything started to go to hell. I thought things were improving with the 2x2s, but it sounds like I was wrong. I don't think this denomination has always been this way. The early workers seemed to care about the people they were trying to bring into the 'fold' by helping them and walking the talk. My grandfather professed in 1918 right before his wife died of the 1918 flu. He was left with 5 children, 2 of them being under the age of 5. The workers that came to my grandfather's area stayed with him on his ranch and helped my grandfather through the entire time they are in the area. They apparently made the whole difference for his ability to cope with running a ranch and still taking care of his children. He did have two older daughters that helped with a lot of the domestic issues, but they were still pretty young too so it must have been a horrendous time for him. I think my grandfather would be appalled by what goes on now. He respected the workers so much and because of his experience with them, for good reason. Now that they feel that they have the power they think that they can tell people what to do or get banished and shunned. And, obviously they can because they are doing exactly that with some people. I remember a woman when I was growing up that was told that she couldn't give her ex a divorce and she couldn't remarry (obviously). But that also meant that her ex couldn't remarry because she obeyed the workers and only got a legal separation. She wouldn't have been able to take part in the emblems if she had disobeyed. This was at least 50 years ago so it started happening a long time ago. It sounds like it is more common now from what I hear. So I don't blame you for being cautious with your decision. I am glad that you don't feel pressured to re-profess in order to feel like you are saved. That is huge. Many don't leave because they are afraid of exactly that. Losing out and not being saved.
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rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
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Post by rudyw on Mar 1, 2023 23:15:09 GMT -5
Bob’s stories are news to me, but I believe him. It’s disheartening & truly distressing. I haven’t reprofessed, but have been going to Gospel Meetings again. The main reason I’ve been going back is because I missed some of the people, and it feels nice to sit with them and chat afterwards. However, if this sort of thing goes on, ‘shutting people out of the Kingdom’, then I’m not interested in professing again. Honestly, I don’t believe in the Living Witness doctrine anyways, and I know I’m saved now apart from the Workers, so professing for me would simply be like‘getting permission’ to participate. We’ll see what happens. I regularly go to my Mom’s for Breaking of Bread & fellowship.I know that if they knew this they’d shut me out of the kingdom. But honestly, I’m not going to abandon my mom over a Worker who doesn’t really care for me anyways. My youngest & her husband are showing an interest in doing this also (she was raised in a non-2x2 home meeting, which broke apart when the Elder left his wife for another woman!) There’s a very small group of them still meeting in my hometown, but I don’t get along with the elder at all. He’s pushy & opinionated, and can be very vulgar when no women are around, so I have no desire to go back to that group either! I believe in the 2x2 pattern and all, but something has gone wrong with the Worker system. I have to say, being on this board has revealed some things to me that I would never have been able to find out elsewhere. ]I think Cooney had it right, & when they got rid of him everything started to go to hell. I thought things were improving with the 2x2s, but it sounds like I was wrong. I don't think this denomination has always been this way. The early workers seemed to care about the people they were trying to bring into the 'fold' by helping them and walking the talk. My grandfather professed in 1918 right before his wife died of the 1918 flu. He was left with 5 children, 2 of them being under the age of 5. The workers that came to my grandfather's area stayed with him on his ranch and helped my grandfather through the entire time they are in the area. They apparently made the whole difference for his ability to cope with running a ranch and still taking care of his children. He did have two older daughters that helped with a lot of the domestic issues, but they were still pretty young too so it must have been a horrendous time for him. I think my grandfather would be appalled by what goes on now. He respected the workers so much and because of his experience with them, for good reason. Now that they feel that they have the power they think that they can tell people what to do or get banished and shunned. And, obviously they can because they are doing exactly that with some people. I remember a woman when I was growing up that was told that she couldn't give her ex a divorce and she couldn't remarry (obviously). But that also meant that her ex couldn't remarry because she obeyed the workers and only got a legal separation. She wouldn't have been able to take part in the emblems if she had disobeyed. This was at least 50 years ago so it started happening a long time ago. It sounds like it is more common now from what I hear. So I don't blame you for being cautious with your decision. I am glad that you don't feel pressured to re-profess in order to feel like you are saved. That is huge. Many don't leave because they are afraid of exactly that. Losing out and not being saved. Thanks for sharing this. The workers who helped your granddad were saints. That’s how workers today should be!
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