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Post by Annemarie on Aug 2, 2007 3:48:00 GMT -5
Reading this board has changed my life.
In several stages...
First I was made to doubt my religious home, and so I left meetings.
Next I was made to doubt Gods interest in me, so I left Him.
Now I doubt He exists.
The post on this board have helped me to see clearly that Christianity is hypocritical. Both current 2x2s and exes clearly have demonstrated to me that its all a sham, that its just a game, that there's nothing real behind any of it. The verbal warfare that rages here in posts from all manner of people have me totally convinced. Just get on with my finite life, and live for myself until death which ends it all.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 2, 2007 3:50:24 GMT -5
I'm very sorry to hear that. I really hope you will try to pray, search your heart, and read the Bible and perhaps feel differently again. If your heart has been changed once, it can be changed again. You're right...there is not a great spirit in this forum much of the time..sometimes that has been helped along by myself...but I aim to change that. However, there are also really lovely, Godly people here....if you are around long enough, you get to know who they are. I will pray for you. Take care, Michelle
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check out other religions
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Post by check out other religions on Aug 2, 2007 3:57:39 GMT -5
You seem to assume that if fundamentalist christianity is false (or at least flawed) that their is nothing else to consider...other than atheism. Not so fast. I would study up on the eastern religions, new age metaphysics, and study literature on the paranormal.
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Post by Legion on Aug 2, 2007 5:19:42 GMT -5
Luk 8:29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
i have been telling people of the devils here for awhile now.
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Post by Brick on Aug 2, 2007 6:09:34 GMT -5
Not so fast. I would study up on the eastern religions, new age metaphysics, and study literature on the paranormal. And while you are at it, you might want to practice something that brings a profound sense of peace and feeling your place in the universe: take a moment's breather to clean out the toe jam at the end of a busy day.
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Post by my view on Aug 2, 2007 9:53:49 GMT -5
I think Brick has some great advice.
But, the bottomline is that no one or nothing can "drive you from God". Whether or not you perceive your connection with an entity that some people call "God" is YOUR choice, pure and simple.
Giving up blame in all its forms is a fundamental step in truly growing up.
We read posts here every so often about how terrible and negative this board is. I'm not a very active participant here, but I don't see it that way at all. I see some totally awesome people here - Brick, Clearday, Gene Nelson, Selah, Scott Ross, diet coke, are just a few that immediately come to mind. And there are many others who make very positive contributions.
I don't see the fact that there is disagreement, rudeness, and negativity here as being a bad thing. We have all come out of a system (or are still part of it) where freedom of expression was not encouraged (to put it mildly). Much of what I see here I consider part of a healing process or a process of individual and even collective growth. Sure, there are individuals here that you hope will learn to take more responsibilty for their communications. And there are some that you hope will seek constructive professional help. But, for the most part, as Martha Stewart would put it "It's a good thing."
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Post by Doubtful on Aug 2, 2007 10:21:41 GMT -5
Personally, I doubt that Annmarie is a real person who has come to the conclusions stated due to this board's influence.
Sounds more like the author is just wanting to make the ex-es look bad, and give this board some bad press.
Someone wanting to aggravate and make trouble.
Someone unwilling to accept the truth of a matter, whatever it happens to be, who will stoop to any tactic to make the exes and their support board look bad.
Anyone else get that feeling when reading Annmarie's post?
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Post by Listing on Aug 2, 2007 15:47:39 GMT -5
Well, doubtful, here's another like AnneMarie, who has gone off it all largely as a result of the influence of this board.
I've left meetings. Not such an easy thing to do, but best done.
I no longer attend any church, no longer have any faith in a god, and am quite pleased to be outta it all.
In a way I'm g;lad of the fighting and bickering on this board. It sure convinced me that there's no god behind it all
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Post by Wondering on Aug 2, 2007 15:51:58 GMT -5
Is leaving the meetings with the friends and workers harder than leaving God and Jesus?
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Post by Matt on Aug 2, 2007 17:09:47 GMT -5
Anne Marie
You have reached the same conclusion as I have - religion is destructive to the soul. I started off having severe doubts about 2x2ism and ended up realising that the issues with which I had severe doubts about regarding the 2x2 church also applied to the broader christian churches. And no surprise there as the 2x2 church is simply one of many offshoots of the traditional christian church with all its inherent tyranny and hypocrisy. The history of the christian church is abominable right from the early days through the crusades and the middles ages right up to the 20th century, so much so that I can never quite understand those who advocate it as a way of life. Can a bad tree bring forth good fruit? Hmm! Certainly not the sort of example you'd want to teach your children.
Later I realised that the brainwashing to which I'd been subjected to as a 2x2 is no different to the brainwashing others have been subjected to as a result of a lifetime of traditional Chritian teaching. No disrespect to all the nice people here but if one is gullible enough to fall for the 2x2 delusion (which we all did) what makes us all so sure that we're not equally deluded as regards the wider christianity thing? Obviously expressing such a viewpoint here will cause howls of derision (such is the level of brainwashing) but then had one raised doubts about the validity of the 2x2 church when such people where part of it, one would have experienced a similar response. The beauty of brainwashing is that one does not know one is brainwashed. That's one thing I learned of my time in the 2x2s - I am actually capable of believing such a thing.
The thing is most of us have been programmed from birth to believe the christianity thing - whether it's 2x2ism or a broader form - just as we believed in father christmas and the tooth fairy. You can teach a child to believe almost anything. But if we'd all been born in the Islamic world we'd all be muslims and condemning the Christains here as indfidels. That's right - the very same people here would be quoting the Koran rather than the KJV. The only reason we are Christian is through accident of birth - most of us were only 2x2 by accident of birth.
It wasn't until I took a more objective view of the entire christian God thing that I started to read the bible with an unbiased mind. I was shocked and appalled as to the behaviour of the so called loving God in the Old Testament. A chronical of wickedness, murder, death and destruction if there ever was one. And He seemed to take particular delight in this sort of behaviour. I quickly realsied of that is the sort of God I'm supposed to follow I'm having none of it.
Anyway the truth is that it's only when one finally puts the whole religion thing to bed that one can really start to live and discover what life is about. One does not even have to give up God - I still believe in God but certainly not the Christian one or one who has a big white beard and an unhealthy obsession for exercising vengence on children.
Anyway I wish you well in your life. Life is a virtue after all.
Matt
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Post by Peacemaker on Aug 2, 2007 17:28:57 GMT -5
Anne Marie You have reached the same conclusion as I have - religion is destructive to the soul. I started off having severe doubts about 2x2ism and ended up realising that the issues with which I had severe doubts about regarding the 2x2 church also applied to the broader christian churches. And no surprise there as the 2x2 church is simply one of many offshoots of the traditional christian church with all its inherent tyranny and hypocrisy. The history of the christian church is abominable right from the early days through the crusades and the middles ages right up to the 20th century, so much so that I can never quite understand those who advocate it as a way of life. Can a bad tree bring forth good fruit? Hmm! Certainly not the sort of example you'd want to teach your children. Later I realised that the brainwashing to which I'd been subjected to as a 2x2 is no different to the brainwashing others have been subjected to as a result of a lifetime of traditional Chritian teaching. No disrespect to all the nice people here but if one is gullible enough to fall for the 2x2 delusion (which we all did) what makes us all so sure that we're not equally deluded as regards the wider christianity thing? Obviously expressing such a viewpoint here will cause howls of derision (such is the level of brainwashing) but then had one raised doubts about the validity of the 2x2 church when such people where part of it, one would have experienced a similar response. The beauty of brainwashing is that one does not know one is brainwashed. That's one thing I learned of my time in the 2x2s - I am actually capable of believing such a thing. The thing is most of us have been programmed from birth to believe the christianity thing - whether it's 2x2ism or a broader form - just as we believed in father christmas and the tooth fairy. You can teach a child to believe almost anything. But if we'd all been born in the Islamic world we'd all be muslims and condemning the Christains here as indfidels. That's right - the very same people here would be quoting the Koran rather than the KJV. The only reason we are Christian is through accident of birth - most of us were only 2x2 by accident of birth. It wasn't until I took a more objective view of the entire christian God thing that I started to read the bible with an unbiased mind. I was shocked and appalled as to the behaviour of the so called loving God in the Old Testament. A chronical of wickedness, murder, death and destruction if there ever was one. And He seemed to take particular delight in this sort of behaviour. I quickly realsied of that is the sort of God I'm supposed to follow I'm having none of it. Anyway the truth is that it's only when one finally puts the whole religion thing to bed that one can really start to live and discover what life is about. One does not even have to give up God - I still believe in God but certainly not the Christian one or one who has a big white beard and an unhealthy obsession for exercising vengence on children. Anyway I wish you well in your life. Life is a virtue after all. Matt Hi Matt Just out of interest, which God do you now believe in? You have stated that you have not given up God you still believe in God but certainly not the christian one or one who has an obsession for exercising vengeance on children. It am shocked and sorry that you see Almighty God of the old and New Testament in that light, even though it is written 'vengeance is mine saith the Lord.'
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Post by very well put on Aug 2, 2007 18:04:33 GMT -5
No disrespect to all the nice people here but if one is gullible enough to fall for the 2x2 delusion (which we all did) what makes us all so sure that we're not equally deluded as regards the wider christianity thing? Obviously expressing such a viewpoint here will cause howls of derision (such is the level of brainwashing) but then had one raised doubts about the validity of the 2x2 church when such people where part of it, one would have experienced a similar response. The beauty of brainwashing is that one does not know one is brainwashed. That's one thing I learned of my time in the 2x2s - I am actually capable of believing such a thing. excellent post matt. especially the above part. my thoughts exactly. so many pple here (me included) believed so strongly in the truth. then they "see the light". but who is the say the light we see now is the real thing? shoot, i thought i saw the light when i professed. that is why the christians on this board are hypocritical when they jump up and down and scream about the 2x2s but say "believe me now"
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Post by Sounds Bad on Aug 2, 2007 18:05:45 GMT -5
Reading this board has changed my life. In several stages... First I was made to doubt my religious home, and so I left meetings. Next I was made to doubt Gods interest in me, so I left Him. Now I doubt He exists. The post on this board have helped me to see clearly that Christianity is hypocritical. Both current 2x2s and exes clearly have demonstrated to me that its all a sham, that its just a game, that there's nothing real behind any of it. The verbal warfare that rages here in posts from all manner of people have me totally convinced. Just get on with my finite life, and live for myself until death which ends it all.
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Post by So on Aug 2, 2007 18:11:16 GMT -5
Reading this board has changed my life. In several stages... First I was made to doubt my religious home, and so I left meetings. Next I was made to doubt Gods interest in me, so I left Him. Now I doubt He exists. The post on this board have helped me to see clearly that Christianity is hypocritical. Both current 2x2s and exes clearly have demonstrated to me that its all a sham, that its just a game, that there's nothing real behind any of it. The verbal warfare that rages here in posts from all manner of people have me totally convinced. Just get on with my finite life, and live for myself until death which ends it all. So you never knew God, and you blame everyone else. That is in the Bible. Those who follow the crowd end up eating hot sand in a dry desert. Those who do what Jesus said, drink from a spiritual fountain you must taste to believe via FAITH Your faith is in people. You are a conformist, not a Christian.
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Post by Be Annemarie on Aug 2, 2007 18:14:28 GMT -5
Reading this board has changed my life. In several stages... First I was made to doubt my religious home, and so I left meetings. Next I was made to doubt Gods interest in me, so I left Him. Now I doubt He exists. The post on this board have helped me to see clearly that Christianity is hypocritical. Both current 2x2s and exes clearly have demonstrated to me that its all a sham, that its just a game, that there's nothing real behind any of it. The verbal warfare that rages here in posts from all manner of people have me totally convinced. Just get on with my finite life, and live for myself until death which ends it all. Take some responsibility for your life. Quit blaming everyone else for your blindness. The devil blinded you, not me. I am not your excuse !
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 2, 2007 19:06:20 GMT -5
Well!
This is quite a letter, and seems to come from a sensible individual who has obviously considered his beliefs from a number of angles. However, the question needs to be raised as to whether Matt has produced a sufficient basis upon which to reject God, and the Faith of Christianity. Has he come to a fair and reasonable conclusion - within the boundaries of philosophy - to maintain that because Christians are flawed, the entire belief structure of Christianity must likewise be flawed?
[Matt Wrote] You have reached the same conclusion as I have - religion is destructive to the soul.
To whose soul? There are countless former drug-addicts, thugs, and prostitutes who sing the praises of God for bringing them forth from lifestyles that are truly destructive into the marvellous light of a life in which there is peace, hope beyond death, love, and comfort.
I do not here exaggerate. A couple of years ago one of the most notorious Madams of a very famous chain of brothels, whose belligerent face was constantly in the papers, suddenly converted to Christianity and gave up the whole business. She openly spoke of the spirtual-suicide she committed everytime she allowed a man (or woman) to use her body for large sums of cash. She presently works with the state's Archbishop to get women out of prostitution.
The fact of the matter is that the Christian faith has been the animating force behind countless measures which have improved life immeasurable for human beings. Abolishing slavery in England, for instance, was brought about due to a devout Christian man who entered parliament. Our concept of hospitals and medical care are largely informed by the need to care for the sick, and infirm, as taught to us by Jesus of Nazareth.
Are these selfless activities destructive to the soul? Does it damage people and wider society to have religion urging people to give alms charitably to the poor, to work without pay, to heal and help? One must consider the enormous benefits of Christianity - education, health, social values - in addition to the fact that some adherents have been less than pleasant fellows.
[Matt Wrote] I started off having severe doubts about 2x2ism and ended up realising that the issues with which I had severe doubts about regarding the 2x2 church also applied to the broader christian churches.
You raise an important point. I have observed that many of the criticisms leveled at the fellowship by ex-2x2s are self-refuting, in that when applied to denominational religion, are equally valid. As I have said before, it is like sawing through the branch one is sitting on to be so extreme in opposition to the Church.
[Matt Wrote] And no surprise there as the 2x2 church is simply one of many offshoots of the traditional christian church with all its inherent tyranny and hypocrisy. The history of the christian church is abominable right from the early days through the crusades and the middles ages right up to the 20th century.
I have heard this argument before - religion was unfettered evil; "crusades"! "hypocrisy"! etc. Whenever I have spoken to people who say such things, I have quickly learned that their understanding of the crusades is informed by popular legend, and Hollywood movies (such as the mightily inaccurate "Kingdom of Heaven"). In other words, the majority of people who so strongly object to Christianity on the basis of historical events, have the same level of understanding of those historical events as they do of any other urban legend.
Moreover, you confuse the actions of human adherents with the tenants of the Faith itself. I doubt you commit the same fallacy with secular issues - for instance, when you read about a corrupt policeman who does not live up to the Police Force code of ethics do you, in your mind, invalidate those ethics? When a man fails to obey the law in some capacity - for instance, shoplifting - does that invalidate the law that guides and limits such behaviour? If a doctor does not follow the lofty ideal of the Hippocratic Oath, and actively pursues harm of his patients, does that by projection, make the Oath a complete nonsense?
Of course not. Yet in terms of Christianity you make the same charges, that because some people who have called themselves Christians throughout a very long span of time have been wicked, that by extension the whole Faith of Christianity is a waste of time. Am I saying then that there has never been "hypocrisy and tyranny" within Christendom? Not at all! Has there been hypocrisy in Christianity? Yes! Loads of it; indeed, mountains of it! Why? Because the loftier the ideals advocated by any institution, the less likely flawed human beings are going to be able to always (if indeed, ever) meet those ideals in all points. (Politics and the lofty ideals of parliament are a case in point.)
When you have a set of beliefs that advocate perfect and consistent love, a life dedicated to prayer and good works, and material and spiritual selflessness in every way, and so on and so on, and you apply this set of beliefs to cultures, contexts and people who are deficient in many ways, what would you expect to result? Examples of monumental hypocrisy and failure, of course. How could it be otherwise? After all, when you were a Christian, did you meet the requirements of Christian behaviour all the time? I doubt you could say yes. If then, you could not do it, how can you demand that others out-shine your own efforts?
Care must be taken to recognise that many examples of people who did live closely to the values of the Gospel, and whose lives were shining lights for us all. I think of Augustine of Hippo, Francis of Assisi, Bishop Melito, Athanasius, Wycliff and so on.
[Matt Wrote] Later I realised that the brainwashing to which I'd been subjected to as a 2x2 is no different to the brainwashing others have been subjected to as a result of a lifetime of traditional Chritian teaching.
"Brainwashing" is a word that means something different to just about everyone. If by brainwashing you mean being taught that a set of beliefs are true, and should be followed - then this is part-and-parcel of secular life just as much as religious life. By this definition, everyone has been brainwashed to believe all kinds of things, for instance, that washing our teeth with toothpaste is essential to good dental hygene. The danger of jumping at the "brainwashing" shadow is that after a time of following this particular relativistic philosophical angle, nothing seems believable. Every assertion becomes a point of doubt; every rule and law seems questionable; and indeed, reality itself begins to seem surreal.
If by "brainwashing" you mean teaching people to think only in one particular furrow, then again, this is not only a religious phenomenon. For example, it can also be political. How do you know your government has not brainwashed you into a certain mode of thinking in regards to "democracy"? Moreover, I think you would be greatly challenged to show that there is any rigid universalism of belief among the friends, among Roman Catholics, or Protestants of any stripe.
[Matt Wrote] No disrespect to all the nice people here but if one is gullible enough to fall for the 2x2 delusion (which we all did) what makes us all so sure that we're not equally deluded as regards the wider christianity thing?
If your doubts have substance - for example, you can base your scepticism on a foundation of reason (textual issues, historical issues, etc) - rather than an unscholarly, superficial rejection of Christianity en toto, for very nebulous reasons, then we can tackle those issues and consider their content. But if your views are based simply on a write-off of Christianity; a kind of raw, unseasoned agnosticism, if you will, then your views (if you will forgive me) are beyond either proving or refuting. It is an argument of emotion, and no one can discuss that.
I do find it ironic that you believe two-billion human beings on this planet to be delusional in regards to their faith, while counting yourself as fully in touch with reality concerning Christianity.
[Matt Wrote] Obviously expressing such a viewpoint here will cause howls of derision (such is the level of brainwashing) but then had one raised doubts about the validity of the 2x2 church when such people where part of it, one would have experienced a similar response. The beauty of brainwashing is that one does not know one is brainwashed. That's one thing I learned of my time in the 2x2s - I am actually capable of believing such a thing.
How do you know you are not still brainwashed then? Perhaps a different viewpoint, a changed perspective, but still brainwashed. Perhaps you have been brainwashed by the agnostic brigade, and live on in ignorance of it! See how reality becomes bent when you start believing people's beliefs to be imposted, involuntary products, rather than an act of self-will.
[Matt Wrote] The thing is most of us have been programmed from birth to believe the christianity thing - whether it's 2x2ism or a broader form - just as we believed in father christmas and the tooth fairy. You can teach a child to believe almost anything. But if we'd all been born in the Islamic world we'd all be muslims and condemning the Christains here as indfidels.
And if we were born in an atheist family, we would probably be atheists. And if we were born in an agnostic family, chances are we would become agnostics. And if we were born into a freethinking family, chances are we would end up freethinkers.
Context is not an argument either for or against Christianity, any more than it is an argument for or against atheism, agnosticism or freethinking. Rather such an argument of context should be a spur to investigate all manner of faiths to find which one is truly valid. A more valid logic would be this: there must be something to this religion thing, because most human beings in all geographical, historical and cultural contexts are convinced of spiritual realities - hence the variety of religions (Islam, Christianity, Budhism, Natural Religion, Hinduism etc) - but all religions cannot be true due to conflicting beliefs. (For we know that truth does not refute itself.) Therefore one of these many religions must be right (or at least, "more correct" than the others), and to discover which religion it is calls for investigation and study, application and prayer.
It does not call for throwing one's hands into the air, disclaiming, "Too hard so let's just give up! All religion is false!"
[Matt Wrote] That's right - the very same people here would be quoting the Koran rather than the KJV. The only reason we are Christian is through accident of birth - most of us were only 2x2 by accident of birth.
Does this make an argument refuting the truth of Christianity? No. Does this make an argument for the truth of Islam? No. If an entire belief system started with the conviction that elongated human beings lived on Jupiter's clouds, it would still be false no matter how many generations grew up believing it, and if an entire belief system developed which celebrated the absence of water on the moon, it would still be true no matter how many generations grew up disbelieving it.
As I have said before: "Context is NOT an argument against Christianity."
[Matt Wrote] It wasn't until I took a more objective view of the entire christian God thing that I started to read the bible with an unbiased mind.
When you say "unbiased and objective" what you mean is that you read the Bible with only your own understanding to guide you; probably looking at things in isolatation; looking only toward your immediate reaction to what you read, rather than applying yourself to a more careful study and heeding the many excellent scholars who have dedicated their lives to understanding the scriptures, their original languages, and the cultural context in which each text was written.
Textual criticism is sadly an under-used and poorly-known discipline, which to my mind explains why so many people end up with the short end of the stick when trying to interpret a book like the Bible which is thoroughly unique in the sense that it spans thousands of generations, thousands of years, and is comprised of many composite texts from different authors, each of whom wrote in different geographic locations, different historical periods, and used a variety of powerful idioms acceptable and understood by the contemporary culture.
[Matt Wrote] I was shocked and appalled as to the behaviour of the so called loving God in the Old Testament. A chronical of wickedness, murder, death and destruction if there ever was one. And He seemed to take particular delight in this sort of behaviour. I quickly realsied of that is the sort of God I'm supposed to follow I'm having none of it.
And here is the nexus of the argument: God is bad because he destroyed some wicked men, therefore he can be rejected! The same God who saved a nation, who protected a people in a desolate place, who sent prophets to guide and direct, and who gave his only begotten Son, is not a God to follow?
[Matt Wrote] Anyway the truth is that it's only when one finally puts the whole religion thing to bed that one can really start to live and discover what life is about.
What is life all about? What is our purpose; our function here? What is the meaning of all our activities which we work under the sun? Explain to us these things, if you can, because no secular philosopher has ever been capable of giving a reasonable answer, save that life is a species of hopelessness.
[Matt Wrote] One does not even have to give up God - I still believe in God but certainly not the Christian one or one who has a big white beard and an unhealthy obsession for exercising vengence on children.
I always find these kinds of statements deeply ironic.
What do you believe about God, Matt, and who has informed you of this? Upon which authority do you base your understanding? I suspect, like many liberal theists, that your God is very much like yourself, and approves of your social values, and is brimming with certain virtues which you yourself find especially virtuous. In other words, God falls from the mould you have established.
Yet has God spoken to you? Without scripture, without prophets, without revelation, you have no way of knowing that what you believe is true. Your faith is a species of speculation, guided only by personal preference and individual emotionalism. This is not a sufficient basis for a faith.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 3, 2007 0:59:09 GMT -5
Reading this board has changed my life. In several stages... First I was made to doubt my religious home, and so I left meetings. Next I was made to doubt Gods interest in me, so I left Him. Now I doubt He exists. The post on this board have helped me to see clearly that Christianity is hypocritical. Both current 2x2s and exes clearly have demonstrated to me that its all a sham, that its just a game, that there's nothing real behind any of it. The verbal warfare that rages here in posts from all manner of people have me totally convinced. Just get on with my finite life, and live for myself until death which ends it all. You aren't alone. Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. I heard one woman the other day say "There are many contradictions in the Bible. I don't like Christianity because it doesn't embrace all beliefs. Like witches for example and wizardry. She told me how witches put potions on their "broom" and put it in there "fill in word here" to have hallucinations which bring them special revelations of the spiritual world" But then she told me she didn't believe in this form of intoxication and that many of their "revelations" seem crazy. Later I thought to tell her "I don't believe in your beliefs because it has many contradictions" Brad
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 3, 2007 8:04:10 GMT -5
very well put posted: ....that is why the christians on this board are hypocritical when they jump up and down and scream about the 2x2s but say "believe me now" And which Christians might that be? The ones on this board who I consider to be true Christians NEVER say "believe me now" They will point you to scripture and say "believe in Jesus" or words to that effect. I never got any of my beliefs in Jesus through going to church. It was from reading the bible and understanding what Jesus taught in his Gospel messages. I never started going to church (other than an occasional visit with relatives/friends) until fairly recently. If anyone gets a belief in God/Jesus from another human, then they have not really "gotten" it. In Jesus' own words: Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Not all of us suffer from "being right" here on the TMB. There are those who are 2x2's who think that their way is the only way and that all ex's are wrong, and there are those who are ex 2x2's who think that all 2x2's are wrong. There are also those of us who understand that our salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus/God with the guidance of the Holy Spirit/Comforter which NO MAN can come between. We do not judge, but rather try to help those who are struggling. I do agree that there is a lot of verbal warfare that takes place on these boards, and that it can tend to drive people away. I also think that there is a lot of help here on these boards for those who are seeking answers,and where to look for them. Whenever someone posts here about something I am not sure about, or question, I go to my bibles and look up relevant scripture. I recommend that everyone do this to see if verses are taken out of context to make a point, or to gain a better understanding of what is written. Those who have contacted me "off board" are given scripture and what it means to me, but never "I am right" responses to questions. I am just a sinner like everyone else, and it is not my place to judge. It is sad that so many who post here do judge others rather than to show the Love which is the greatest commandment of all. Scott
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 3, 2007 10:43:52 GMT -5
If you look within HUMANS to prove there is a God, you'll be disappointed. We're deeply flawed.
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Post by las logged out on Aug 3, 2007 11:15:53 GMT -5
Reading this board has changed my life. In several stages... First I was made to doubt my religious home, and so I left meetings. Next I was made to doubt Gods interest in me, so I left Him. Now I doubt He exists. The post on this board have helped me to see clearly that Christianity is hypocritical. Both current 2x2s and exes clearly have demonstrated to me that its all a sham, that its just a game, that there's nothing real behind any of it. The verbal warfare that rages here in posts from all manner of people have me totally convinced. Just get on with my finite life, and live for myself until death which ends it all. Jesus is the only way not a group of people going to mtgs we should of known better that the 2x2 group had to have a founder and we should of known better that Jesus is the only way
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ann
Senior Member
Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
Posts: 267
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Post by ann on Aug 3, 2007 11:42:22 GMT -5
"There are also those of us who understand that our salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus/God with the guidance of the Holy Spirit/Comforter which NO MAN can come between. We do not judge, but rather try to help those who are struggling. "
Absolutely correct! I also found God fro reading the Bible on my own and then talking to those who understood God was a loving God.
Thank you, Scott for this post.
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Post by been there on Aug 3, 2007 17:52:12 GMT -5
When we left meetings we were sort of adrift-we did it ourselves. We had to splash around a bit until we got our bearings. We had to look at things with a different point of view. Is this scripturally correct, is that-wait-do I believe in the scripture?
Take time to sit back, listen to the birds, look at flowers, go fishing, take a bike ride do what ever is brainless and relaxing and be aware of what is around you. Get away from the crowds and think.
Then as you think, listen, ponder get yourself into a good Bible study. Not to prove yea or nay to God's existence. Study to learn. Learn about the culture, the history, the anthropology and then relax.
It is a traumatic thing to leave, give yourself time. Give yourself time.
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Post by Somebody who cares on Aug 3, 2007 18:36:26 GMT -5
Dear Annemarie
I hear you. Trust God. He does care about you. Dont give up on him. Religion sux. Hypocritcal christians suck. But the love of God for humanity never falters or changes. He hasnt left you or forgotten you. Shushy
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Post by ithascome on Aug 3, 2007 22:07:46 GMT -5
Annemarie
I am saddened by your post. All I can say is... If you were driven from God... perhaps you should determine who was in the drivers seat. Kick him out and put Jesus there in its place.
It was not God... please don't blame Him.
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 4, 2007 1:48:19 GMT -5
I think Brick has some great advice. But, the bottomline is that no one or nothing can "drive you from God". Whether or not you perceive your connection with an entity that some people call "God" is YOUR choice, pure and simple. Giving up blame in all its forms is a fundamental step in truly growing up. We read posts here every so often about how terrible and negative this board is. I'm not a very active participant here, but I don't see it that way at all. I see some totally awesome people here - Brick, Clearday, Gene Nelson, Selah, Scott Ross, diet coke, are just a few that immediately come to mind. And there are many others who make very positive contributions. I don't see the fact that there is disagreement, rudeness, and negativity here as being a bad thing. We have all come out of a system (or are still part of it) where freedom of expression was not encouraged (to put it mildly). Much of what I see here I consider part of a healing process or a process of individual and even collective growth. Sure, there are individuals here that you hope will learn to take more responsibilty for their communications. And there are some that you hope will seek constructive professional help. But, for the most part, as Martha Stewart would put it "It's a good thing." i totally agree... with the toe jam thing... yup brick, i cleaned that toe jam... much better, ty... and i am ready to go see a psychiatrist.... i just need the funds... my psychiatrist is kinda far away... about 2000 miles, but only the best for me. i really want to get well... really really bad.... just send a check, or cash.... and i'll be going ummm south, yeah thats it, south to see my psychriatrist... the devils can drive you to worse places than the wilderness. and when i say devils, some people here respond as if i meant brad, or nathan, or me, or bryan, or bert, ... NO !!! i meant what i said- DEVILS... they are here, and i am not talking about people.... thats not being negative, just honest.
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Post by Yeah Right on Aug 4, 2007 2:51:35 GMT -5
Trust God Anne Marie. God cares about you The love of God for all humanity never changes or falters.
Actually if you look up from your bible and take a look around the world you'll soon realise that God doesn't give a hoot about you or the world. The rain falls on the just and the unjust and the world goes on.
Does God love humanity? Do you love your children? If you do and could prevent it, would you let your children suffer in the way God allows His to suffer? The hell you would! Take a walk around Dafur. Take a walk around the Gaza strip. Pack up your AK47 and head for Sierra Leone. Take yourself a sojourn down to Bulawayo or through the blood filled streets of Iraq or Afganistan and listen to the women wailing and the children crying. Look carefully at their sunken eyes and their swollen bellies and tell them that God cares.
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 4, 2007 3:01:49 GMT -5
about workers: heres a new one: do you know how many times i've gone into the work, left the work, gone into the work, left the work, gone into the work, left the work, gone into the work, left the work, gone into the work, left the work, gone into the work, and so on, and so on, and so on....etc etc etc etc ....etc..... ?
neither do i.
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shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
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Post by shushy on Aug 4, 2007 8:06:42 GMT -5
Everybody speaks from their point of reference or life experience. Just because there is destruction, lands laid waste, people starving, children dieing of malnutrion, war, pestilence, famines, disease and all manor of rotten ugliness around us. I wont forsake my maker. I'll defend him while I have breath. God is blamed for all the wrong doing in the world. When will man stand up and be accountable and responsible for his actions? When will man put his money where his mouth is? When will he look at himself instead of always pointing the finger to create an argument? I think each one of us needs to look deep into our own minds to find the lurgys hidden there. If people were more loving and caring to one another the world would not be in the state it is.
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