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Post by xna on Jun 22, 2022 8:58:30 GMT -5
Theist = a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods. Prefix A = without Atheist = a person without a belief in the existence of a god or gods.
Theist and Atheist both describe a belief
So perhaps all atheists are really agnostic unless they are mental handclapped? Gnostic - relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge. Prefix A = without Agnostic - Lack of knowledge especially esoteric mystical knowledge.
Gnostic and Agnostic both describe knowledge
Most atheist are; Agnostic Atheists - Do not have a belief in a god or gods, and do not know that a god exists.
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Post by intelchips on Jun 22, 2022 9:31:05 GMT -5
Theist = a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods. Prefix A = without Atheist = a person without a belief in the existence of a god or gods.
Theist and Atheist both describe a belief
So perhaps all atheists are really agnostic unless they are mental handclapped? Gnostic - relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge. Prefix A = without Agnostic - Lack of knowledge especially esoteric mystical knowledge.
Gnostic and Agnostic both describe knowledge
Most atheist are; Agnostic Atheists - Do not have a belief in a god or gods, and do not know that a god exists.
Please excuse my imprecise use of the language. Your understanding of what I was trying to express is slightly off center. I was thinking if one has doubts about a god while also being a person that respects the scientific method that they could not be an atheist. That doesn’t mean my thought is correct (I’m wrong about a lot of things) but perhaps a starting place for dialogue. Also It just occurred to me if there is a process of one living a religion where first they believe, then they become an agnostic, and then slide into thinking themselves an atheist.
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Post by verna on Jun 22, 2022 9:32:04 GMT -5
I've known Cherry to be tolerate of others beliefs/non-beliefs as long as they are polite and tolerant in return. I fear you do her an injustice. As can be seen on this forum, many that left the 2x2 became atheists. This is an important part of the 2x2 story.
Cherry has every right to omit this group, or any group on a webpage or book, but if this significant group is omitted without disclosure, it will be a distorted an incomplete work on the history of the 2x2.
Let's hope it's a joke, because I find her other work so far has had professional credibility.Yes xna I agree. She has the right to whose story she shares but it will be an incomplete story. I have observed that atheists on this board can be adamant, sure of themselves and sometimes, may I say, disrespectful of those who “believe”. In that respect she has my sympathy. But it is what it is. A complete representation must include those who choose atheism. Otherwise it is just more of the same IMO. She hope she will explain.
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Post by xna on Jun 22, 2022 9:41:09 GMT -5
Yes xna I agree. She has the right to whose story she shares but it will be an incomplete story. I have observed that atheists on this board can be adamant, sure of themselves and sometimes, may I say, disrespectful of those who “believe”. In that respect she has my sympathy. But it is what it is. A complete representation must include those who choose atheism. Otherwise it is just more of the same IMO. She hope she will explain. A discussion on which, if any religions deserve of respect would be and interesting topic.
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Post by xna on Jun 22, 2022 9:49:08 GMT -5
I was thinking if one has doubts about a god while also being a person that respects the scientific method that they could not be an atheist. There are some very good scientists who are theists. Not all knowledge comes from science. Science deals with the natural which can be observed. Religion deals with the supernatural, a non natural world.
Agnostic doesn't distinguish the source of the knowledge.
This video explains the two terms well.
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Post by Annan on Jun 22, 2022 13:20:05 GMT -5
In my opinion, atheism is a relationship with reality, what I can touch and feel and know. So I can touch a tree. Science tells me how that tree functions. Photosynthesis and roots sucking up water, etc. Science tries to tell me why a tree is alive. You know, those simple sugars in the primordial sea that started it all. Something like that. Who really knows? God? I'm an atheist.
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Post by matisse on Jun 22, 2022 13:21:49 GMT -5
As can be seen on this forum, many that left the 2x2 became atheists. This is an important part of the 2x2 story.
Cherry has every right to omit this group, or any group on a webpage or book, but if this significant group is omitted without disclosure, it will be a distorted an incomplete work on the history of the 2x2.
Let's hope it's a joke, because I find her other work so far has had professional credibility.Yes xna I agree. She has the right to whose story she shares but it will be an incomplete story. I have observed that atheists on this board can be adamant, sure of themselves and sometimes, may I say, disrespectful of those who “believe”. In that respect she has my sympathy. But it is what it is. A complete representation must include those who choose atheism. Otherwise it is just more of the same IMO. She hope she will explain. IMO, all Cherie needs to do is be transparent about her methodology (bias). The practice of this kind of exclusion is one reason I remain connected to TMB, and why I think it is important for TMB to survive.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2022 13:38:36 GMT -5
She will never publish an account of my experience as an ex-2x2 (or snows, or dmmichgood's, or rational's, or Matt10's...) because my path led me to atheism. The stories of atheist ex-2x2's are purposefully excluded from the site. I’m not an atheist but I could just have easily been and hey - could well be in the future. I don’t really understand this prejudice. Trauma is trauma. In fairness to Cherie I used to challenge her for including pro Christian views on the TTT website on the basis that if TTT is a website about the true history of the 2x2 church, to start promoting Christian beliefs on a website purporting to deal in truth and evidence and facts would completely undermine it. There is no question that the Ex 2x2 website is pro Christian. But if that is a consequence of maintaining TTT solely as a factual history site then I couldn’t complain. I don’t see it as prejudiced. It’s just simply pro Christian. Of course I dont think it is as straight forward as “agnostics allowed but no atheists” as I have noted one atheist’s story there. I think the distinction is more likely to be pro Christian views are not compulsory but no anti Christian views are allowed. Which is probably not unreasonable on a site which is pro Christian. I don’t identify as an atheist as I am not anti God but rather am simply (and stridently) anti the Christian God who I view as a rather unpleasant and useless character who, while claiming to be all powerful and all seeing and all knowing and caring and loving, is clearly completely and utterly hopeless at doing anything useful to help anyone in practice. Such views wouldn’t sit well on a pro Christian site where believers place their hope in this God saving their souls post departure. The one criticism I might have is that the Ex 2x2 website does not openly portray itself as pro Christian and therefore is not obviously a pro Christian website on first impressions … in the same way that the 2x2 church is not obviously completely crazy when you first encounter it. You have to be in there for a while before you realise it. Matt10
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 22, 2022 14:23:52 GMT -5
As can be seen on this forum, many that left the 2x2 became atheists. This is an important part of the 2x2 story.
Cherry has every right to omit this group, or any group on a webpage or book, but if this significant group is omitted without disclosure, it will be a distorted an incomplete work on the history of the 2x2.
Let's hope it's a joke, because I find her other work so far has had professional credibility.Perhaps we should take a deeper look into this. I'm thinking when using the term atheists that would have to preclude science. What is an atheist? One who denies the existence of God, or of a supreme intelligent being. A godless man; one who disregards his duty to God. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being. If any particular god remains hidden or untestable then a person with a scientific bent can't really say they can copper their bet that god doesn't exists. So perhaps all atheists are really agnostic unless they are mental handclapped? If this is true problem solved and Cherry can go on doing her work without our quizzing her over it. Those definitions appear to be written by a christian or faith based person.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 22, 2022 14:30:00 GMT -5
I am bemused that a person can find fault with one church,( Cherie Kropp, Doug Parker, Nathan, Elizabeth Coleman, Ross Bowden et al) for whatever reason and then join another. Churches are like days of the week, they are all spelt differently and all end in Y.
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Post by verna on Jun 22, 2022 17:32:24 GMT -5
I am bemused that a person can find fault with one church,( Cherie Kropp, Doug Parker, Nathan, Elizabeth Coleman, Ross Bowden et al) for whatever reason and then join another. Churches are like days of the week, they are all spelt differently and all end in Y. I find it very perplexing as well. What is it they say about fool me twice, shame on me? But then, in my need for story and meaning, I do tend to cling onto stuff that others might find bizarre. So who am I to say.
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Post by xna on Jun 22, 2022 17:40:10 GMT -5
I am bemused that a person can find fault with one church,( Cherie Kropp, Doug Parker, Nathan, Elizabeth Coleman, Ross Bowden et al) for whatever reason and then join another. Churches are like days of the week, they are all spelt differently and all end in Y. I find it very perplexing as well. What is it they say about fool me twice, shame on me? But then, in my need for story and meaning, I do tend to cling onto stuff that others might find bizarre. So who am I to say. Have you looked into classical philosophy? Lots of deep thoughts are addressed from different angles.
Crash Course Philosophy
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Post by fixit on Jun 22, 2022 18:52:51 GMT -5
I’m not an atheist but I could just have easily been and hey - could well be in the future. I don’t really understand this prejudice. Trauma is trauma. In fairness to Cherie I used to challenge her for including pro Christian views on the TTT website on the basis that if TTT is a website about the true history of the 2x2 church, to start promoting Christian beliefs on a website purporting to deal in truth and evidence and facts would completely undermine it. There is no question that the Ex 2x2 website is pro Christian. But if that is a consequence of maintaining TTT solely as a factual history site then I couldn’t complain. I don’t see it as prejudiced. It’s just simply pro Christian. Of course I dont think it is as straight forward as “agnostics allowed but no atheists” as I have noted one atheist’s story there. I think the distinction is more likely to be pro Christian views are not compulsory but no anti Christian views are allowed. Which is probably not unreasonable on a site which is pro Christian. I don’t identify as an atheist as I am not anti God but rather am simply (and stridently) anti the Christian God who I view as a rather unpleasant and useless character who, while claiming to be all powerful and all seeing and all knowing and caring and loving, is clearly completely and utterly hopeless at doing anything useful to help anyone in practice. Such views wouldn’t sit well on a pro Christian site where believers place their hope in this God saving their souls post departure. The one criticism I might have is that the Ex 2x2 website does not openly portray itself as pro Christian and therefore is not obviously a pro Christian website on first impressions … in the same way that the 2x2 church is not obviously completely crazy when you first encounter it. You have to be in there for a while before you realise it. Matt10 I think I understand you Matt10, and I appreciate your posts. You seem to be rejecting fundamentalism's representation of the Christian God.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 22, 2022 18:59:25 GMT -5
I find it very perplexing as well. What is it they say about fool me twice, shame on me? But then, in my need for story and meaning, I do tend to cling onto stuff that others might find bizarre. So who am I to say. Have you looked into classical philosophy? Lots of deep thoughts are addressed from different angles.
Crash Course Philosophy i went to one of those classical concerts once. Those screeching violins were not my cup of tea.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2022 19:33:18 GMT -5
In fairness to Cherie I used to challenge her for including pro Christian views on the TTT website on the basis that if TTT is a website about the true history of the 2x2 church, to start promoting Christian beliefs on a website purporting to deal in truth and evidence and facts would completely undermine it. There is no question that the Ex 2x2 website is pro Christian. But if that is a consequence of maintaining TTT solely as a factual history site then I couldn’t complain. I don’t see it as prejudiced. It’s just simply pro Christian. Of course I dont think it is as straight forward as “agnostics allowed but no atheists” as I have noted one atheist’s story there. I think the distinction is more likely to be pro Christian views are not compulsory but no anti Christian views are allowed. Which is probably not unreasonable on a site which is pro Christian. I don’t identify as an atheist as I am not anti God but rather am simply (and stridently) anti the Christian God who I view as a rather unpleasant and useless character who, while claiming to be all powerful and all seeing and all knowing and caring and loving, is clearly completely and utterly hopeless at doing anything useful to help anyone in practice. Such views wouldn’t sit well on a pro Christian site where believers place their hope in this God saving their souls post departure. The one criticism I might have is that the Ex 2x2 website does not openly portray itself as pro Christian and therefore is not obviously a pro Christian website on first impressions … in the same way that the 2x2 church is not obviously completely crazy when you first encounter it. You have to be in there for a while before you realise it. Matt10 I think I understand you Matt10, and I appreciate your posts. You seem to be rejecting fundamentalism's representation of the Christian God. That is not what he said...
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Post by openingact34 on Jun 22, 2022 22:05:32 GMT -5
Yes xna I agree. She has the right to whose story she shares but it will be an incomplete story. I have observed that atheists on this board can be adamant, sure of themselves and sometimes, may I say, disrespectful of those who “believe”. In that respect she has my sympathy. But it is what it is. A complete representation must include those who choose atheism. Otherwise it is just more of the same IMO. She hope she will explain. A discussion on which, if any religions deserve of respect would be and interesting topic.
The Holy Bible makes it very clear that Atheists deserve NO respect. "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Psalm 53:1 That means that: - ALL atheists are CORRUPT
- ALL atheists do ABOMINABLE things
- NO atheists do ANY good.
There is no point in an Atheist trying to be friends or having any kind of relationship with a Christian. Their holy book straight from God already says that you are pure evil. Other religions are false religions and should be mocked. This pastor does a good job explaining: www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8maBPup6f0
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Post by fixit on Jun 22, 2022 22:51:39 GMT -5
A discussion on which, if any religions deserve of respect would be and interesting topic.
The Holy Bible makes it very clear that Atheists deserve NO respect. "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Psalm 53:1 That means that: - ALL atheists are CORRUPT
- ALL atheists do ABOMINABLE things
- NO atheists do ANY good.
There is no point in an Atheist trying to be friends or having any kind of relationship with a Christian. Their holy book straight from God already says that you are pure evil. Other religions are false religions and should be mocked. This pastor does a good job explaining: www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8maBPup6f0The poem was about fools who just happened to be Atheists as well.
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help
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Post by help on Jun 22, 2022 23:33:00 GMT -5
A discussion on which, if any religions deserve of respect would be and interesting topic.
The Holy Bible makes it very clear that Atheists deserve NO respect. "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Psalm 53:1 That means that: - ALL atheists are CORRUPT
- ALL atheists do ABOMINABLE things
- NO atheists do ANY good.
There is no point in an Atheist trying to be friends or having any kind of relationship with a Christian. Their holy book straight from God already says that you are pure evil. Other religions are false religions and should be mocked. This pastor does a good job explaining: www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8maBPup6f0Very sad attitude. Not practised by the good Christians I know. Christianity should always be inclusive, not exclusive.
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Post by Dan on Jun 23, 2022 1:31:14 GMT -5
I got it from the bible, "We are not stoning you for any good work, but for blasphemy, because you a mere man claim to be God" (John 10 :33 NIV).
If someone accused you of claiming to be God, is that proof that you are God?
No, but everything else Jesus did was evidence of his divinity. The Son of God was God the Son, begotten from the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. Jesus was begotten, not made. Whereby, Jesus wasn't God in an indirect sense, but literally, himself deity. Who spoke all things into creation? Who will brings all things to an end? Only God is good,
who was good and the only perfect sacrifice? Who sits on the throne at the right hand of the Father? Who pours out the cup of wrath? Who judges the world? Who prepares a place for us? These are all divine attributes. You can't define the Father without defining the Son, they are one in Spirit.
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Post by matisse on Jun 23, 2022 8:28:39 GMT -5
Atheism is the natural conclusion reached from reading the bible with an open and honest mind. Roughly 2.4 billion Christians did not reach that conclusion and they are no less open and honest minded than atheists. Argumentum ad populum may apply... Are you including Professing people Down-Under in your count?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2022 10:01:02 GMT -5
In fairness to Cherie I used to challenge her for including pro Christian views on the TTT website on the basis that if TTT is a website about the true history of the 2x2 church, to start promoting Christian beliefs on a website purporting to deal in truth and evidence and facts would completely undermine it. There is no question that the Ex 2x2 website is pro Christian. But if that is a consequence of maintaining TTT solely as a factual history site then I couldn’t complain. I don’t see it as prejudiced. It’s just simply pro Christian. Of course I dont think it is as straight forward as “agnostics allowed but no atheists” as I have noted one atheist’s story there. I think the distinction is more likely to be pro Christian views are not compulsory but no anti Christian views are allowed. Which is probably not unreasonable on a site which is pro Christian. I don’t identify as an atheist as I am not anti God but rather am simply (and stridently) anti the Christian God who I view as a rather unpleasant and useless character who, while claiming to be all powerful and all seeing and all knowing and caring and loving, is clearly completely and utterly hopeless at doing anything useful to help anyone in practice. Such views wouldn’t sit well on a pro Christian site where believers place their hope in this God saving their souls post departure. The one criticism I might have is that the Ex 2x2 website does not openly portray itself as pro Christian and therefore is not obviously a pro Christian website on first impressions … in the same way that the 2x2 church is not obviously completely crazy when you first encounter it. You have to be in there for a while before you realise it. Matt10 I think I understand you Matt10, and I appreciate your posts. You seem to be rejecting fundamentalism's representation of the Christian God. Thanks for your appreciation. However I’m not rejecting fundamentalism’s representation of the Christian God. I’m completely rejecting the existence of the Christian God other than as a literary, fictional character who exists only in the minds of those who have been conditioned to believe in Him. I’m completely rejecting the idea of a God who loves us or who cares about us or who is capable of doing anything at all to help any of us, no matter how trivial. I’m completely rejecting the idea of a God who listens to prayers or who answers prayers or who heals ailments or who gives a hoot about what we get up to with whoever in the bedroom. And I’m completely rejecting the idea of a God who cares about our souls or who will save them. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2022 10:38:08 GMT -5
Roughly 2.4 billion Christians did not reach that conclusion and they are no less open and honest minded than atheists. Argumentum ad populum may apply... Are you including Professing people Down-Under in your count? There are always exceptions to the rule....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2022 10:41:21 GMT -5
The Holy Bible makes it very clear that Atheists deserve NO respect. "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Psalm 53:1 That means that: - ALL atheists are CORRUPT
- ALL atheists do ABOMINABLE things
- NO atheists do ANY good.
There is no point in an Atheist trying to be friends or having any kind of relationship with a Christian. Their holy book straight from God already says that you are pure evil. Other religions are false religions and should be mocked. This pastor does a good job explaining: www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8maBPup6f0Very sad attitude. Not practised by the good Christians I know. Christianity should always be inclusive, not exclusive. That is not what scripture/christ says...redback
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Post by matisse on Jun 23, 2022 11:16:10 GMT -5
In light of Occam's razor, the story of the god who impregnated a mortal human woman to bear him a son, who would later serve as a blood sacrifice so mortal humans who believed in him could have life after death, fits cleanly in the annals of human-created mythologies. In the absence of any compelling evidence (my standard) of something more complicated than that, my working assumption is that the god of the Bible does not exist ouside of the legends and the minds of believers.
I worry as much about the wrathful judgement of Yahweh as I worry about the wrathful judgement of Zeus.
Not at all.
Despite my stated openness to examining new evidence, the term, "Atheist", imo, describes my position most effectively.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 23, 2022 13:57:09 GMT -5
I have read some of the site (excellent) . So far no complaints from me Good job Cheri ! Some on here have worker’s as relatives . So I am enjoying the history . As my great uncle was a early worker . So far , great
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Post by xna on Jun 23, 2022 18:19:07 GMT -5
That is not what scripture/christ says...redback Why did you think help is the old redback?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2022 19:47:39 GMT -5
That is not what scripture/christ says...redback Why did you think help is the old redback? Same words, same beliefs, Same methods... Just as everyone could tell of review005's double accounts so did I concerning redback and olea...not too hard if you are paying attention...
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Post by xna on Jun 23, 2022 19:57:13 GMT -5
Why did you think help is the old redback? Same words, same beliefs, Same methods... Just as everyone could tell of review005's double accounts so did I concerning redback and olea...not too hard if you are paying attention... I don't get why people change their usernames.
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