Harry BrownLee a worker said we 2x2s are the continuation of the new Testament in the 21st century and I agree, he is correct!
He is not correct. Harry Brownlee knew full well how, when and by whom the 2x2 sect started. His parents were the first ones to profess in California via Irvine Weir who entered the work in 1900.
Excerpt from my book:
1903: First Workers Venture to America. Soon after the July Rathmolyon Convention, Wm Irvine and two young Brother Workers departed from Glasgow, Scotland, aboard the SS Columbia, on September 5, 1903, and arrived at the Ellis Island immigration station in New York on September 14. They were the first three Workers to set foot in the US: William Irvine (40), Scottish; George Walker (26), Irish and Irvine Weir (25) Irish. They sailed as steerage passengers, the least expensive ticket. (Ellis Island passenger records).
1904:James Irvine Weir. From New York, Weir arrived in California where he found lodging with a newly married couple, Clyde and Grace Brownlee. "Irvine Weir was the first Worker to come to California in 1904. He met Mr. and Mrs. Brownlee in December 1904, in Long Beach. Mr. Brownlee tried to help Weir with the Gospel Work for a while, but as the family increased, they advised him to establish a home and support his family" (Bone 1975, TTT). Their son was Brother Worker, Harry Brownlee, who entered the Work in 1934 and died in 2010. Irvine Weir, one of the young men who entered the Work in 1900 recalled, "Then in October 1899, William Irvine, still in the Faith Mission, but not satisfied, got seven men and with himself WE toured Scotland using the Faith Mission converts to entertain us." Referring to the photograph taken of the young men on their bicycles, Weir announced that this "in my mind was the start of the work of William Irvine outside the Faith Mission" (Parker 1982, 37, Fn. 23). Irvine Weir was one of the young men.
Presumably, Irvine Weir, was the first one to profess in the Weir family. The Carrolls had invited Irvine Weir to travel from Dublin to the Rathmolyon mission to meet the "rough Scotsman," Irvine. Subsequently, Weir went on the 1899 Bicycle Mission Trip to Scotland, was one of the first 12 Workers to enter the Work (in 1900), was one of the first three Workers to go to America (1903) and pioneered the Work in California before he was expelled around 1950. See Chapter 32.
1900: Twelve new Workers came on board in the UK and Ireland: nine Brothers (Willie Gill, Albert Quinn, Irvine Weir, John Sullivan, Ben Boles, John Hardie, Matthew Wilson, William Clelland, A. Alexander and possibly Samuel Boyd); and three Irish Sisters (Sarah Rogers, Emma and Jennie Gill), making a cumulative total of 18 or 19 new Workers.
Most workers like Harry Brownlee received revelation from God NOT by humans understanding it started and founded by William Irvine in 1898.
Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry has always been on the earth since the time of Jesus Christ, the apostles, and through the centuries and it didn't started by the Faith Mission George Govan, William Irvine or the 2x2 workers.... It will continue to the time of Jesus 2nd coming which will be very soon.
Title: The Pilgrim Church Author: E. H. Broadbent
Chapter V history of the Vaudois/Waldenses
This classic work demonstrates that the true heart of this amazing drama is not even recorded in church history books. Right from apostolic days there have always been little groups of persecuted believers who just wanted to follow the Lord. Written in an engaging style, this book will thrill your heart with the stories of unknown heroes of the faith.
It will spur you on to greater devotion to the Lord Jesus and a deeper concern for His suffering people in many countries today. Originally published in 1931, The Pilgrim Church is considered a modern classic. It provides a comprehensive history of the church from the apostolic age to the twentieth century through the prism of the New Testament church model.
Pope John Paul in the year 2000 and Pope Francis in 2020 asked forgiveness on Monday for the Roman Catholic Church's "non-Christian and inhumane" treatment in the past of the Waldensians."
~~~ "We believe the apostles have Existed since Jesus sent forth the 70 disciples Two and Two." Richard Sullivan. (USA worker)
~~~ "It's from the beginning, planned in God's mind before creation. Walter Nelson. 1976 (USA worker)
~~~ "Was William Irvine the first in the way?" "I think William was among the first... I feel that God has had a Way on the earth since before the foundation of the earth... I don't believe William Irvine is the beginner of it." Bea Mokini. 1985 ( A native Hawaiian worker).
~~~ In answer to your question, "Where did this religion actually begin?" Was it with Jesus as we have been told in Gospel Meetings, or by a man name William Irvine in 1897? We believe Hebrews 12:2 "Looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." I would like to give you some references that mean a lot to me as we carry the Gospel to people and point them to something that is from the beginning and not to something started by Man.
In John 17:5 Jesus spoke of the glory which He had with the Father before the world was, and in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word" etc. So, there is NO date for the starting, as it was with the Heavenly Father before the world. Why would we want something started by a Man when we have in the scripture something that is from the beginning and the scripture to back it up? Doris B. letter, 1989
~~~ "I never met William Irvine at any time and believe he was used of God, but was Never the Origin of what we believe. I understand he became too big in himself and Left the fellowship we love. Workers I know and respect preach only what Jesus lived and taught with no mention at all of William Irvine, or any other man and give only real appreciation for those who retell in our days things taught in Jesus' day. This faith began in New Testament days, neither in Ireland, Scotland or in the U.K. Roddy M. (Scotland Worker) letter dated 6/1/1995.
~~~ "William Irvine Did Not start this Church, it is from beginning, and the Way was just made evidence to him, then." Karen Tenniswood. 1996 (USA)
~~~ "However, regardless of a written record being preserved, Truth is Truth. If nobody believes it and or ... if everybody believes it. Whether or not a thing is believed in has nothing to do with its correctness. To use parable illustration, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That is an established fact of existence. Whether or not people believe the sun rises in the East and sets in the West...in no way changes that established fact of reality...
Everybody could believe the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, but this would not make it true. For anyone to say that what the Bible teaches was started at some certain year since the first century is pitiful Ignorance, and closing the eyes to established facts and truths. The teachings of the New Testament were started in the first century when God's dear Son was here on the earth. That is those truths were established in a group of believers then. But that is NOT where it started.
What God gave through his son was planned before the world began. Matt. 15: 34-35; John 17:24; Acts 3: 20-21; Rom 16: 25-26; I Cor. 2:7; Eph 1:4-5; Titus 1: 2; I Peter 1:18-21. "These truths make very clear that what God the Father... Jesus Christ, the Son of God... and the Holy Spirit believe in, and what God's true ministers and Christians believed in, was planned in the heart and mind of God before the world began, and we Believe the same TODAY. So, it is 100% False for anyone to say that What we Believe was started in some recent year." Dan Hilton. Letter 11/21/89
~~~ "We are NOT following some way Founded in the early 1900s, but it goes back to Christ. Jesus Himself set it up. Whether it was planted in the 1st Century, the 10th century or the 2Oth century, the message is the same, it produces the same thing." Tharold Sylvester 11/16/83 (USA worker)
~~~ "We are simply a Continuation of the Author of Truth." Harry Brownlee. 8/16/79 (USA worker)
~~~ "We are often asked who started this Church?" Heb. 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." Jesus gave us God's eternal plan of Salvation in its fullness. He is both the Author and Finisher. The Way is like a seed, like the wheat seed. It was Created at the beginning of the world. Dan H. 1/1/84 Burlington, WA. (USA)
~~~ "Don't you believe that something so Precious to God could be Preserved and Passed through his Beloved mouthpieces over any age and time? God's way is Eternal!" Cheryl L.
Post by CherieKropp on Jun 18, 2022 21:16:27 GMT -5
Not surprised Nate made an Appeal to Revelation - pulling out the God card. When there is no provable lineage back to Jesus, but there is to Wm Irvine - claim revelation!
Last Edit: Jun 18, 2022 21:24:35 GMT -5 by CherieKropp
Owner of: Telling The Truth (TTT) Website There are just two kinds of people: One to whom Belief...is more precious than Truth, And the other to whom Truth...is more precious than Belief.
Post by CherieKropp on Jun 18, 2022 21:21:55 GMT -5
RE Nate's appeal to Dr. Jaenen's book From Chapter 10:
To his credit, Jaenen openly stated he was unable in his research to trace any Christian group, itinerant preachers or meetings in an unbroken line from the first century to now: “In our efforts to trace the continuity of primitive Christian ideals over the centuries, no unbroken successions or continuous activities of a particular identifiable group have been documented.” (p. 535)
“The thesis of a ‘remnant church’ ALSO remains problematical... we have been unable to establish from the documentary sources accessible to us a continuous, unbroken chain of either conventicles [meetings or gatherings] or poor itinerant preachers from the early centuries to the present.” (p. 538) For those who believe the 2x2 church is the only true church and is of Apostolic Succession (the Remnant Theory) which began on the Shores of Galilee, Jaenen reminds them of the Remnant Theory. However, Jaenen wrote: The thesis of a “remnant church” also remains problematical (p. 538). For those of this persuasion, Jaenen’s failure to trace an unbroken lineage does not trouble them nor does it prove the 2x2 church did not start on the Shores of Galilee. They cling to a sliver of hope that it did prevail--and turn a blind eye to the substantial collection of documents that prove Wm Irvine was the Founder. Some view this as “having faith.”
For those who still want to believe in a line of succession, Jaenen attempts to redirect their focus to what he terms “the Apostolic Succession Theory;” that “....there has been a chain of witnesses of the Apostolic Doctrine and fellowship over the centuries.” (p. 538). He diminishes the importance of a direct physical, tangible line of succession from the first century and substitutes a different viewpoint; that of a spiritual succession. In other words, he attempts to persuade the reader that it doesn’t matter that the physical lineage cannot be traced because the spiritual beliefs still go back to Jesus/apostles.
Last Edit: Jun 18, 2022 21:23:22 GMT -5 by CherieKropp
Owner of: Telling The Truth (TTT) Website There are just two kinds of people: One to whom Belief...is more precious than Truth, And the other to whom Truth...is more precious than Belief.
Nathan claims they did not try and hide their beginnings but then posts plenty of them lying about their beginnings and claiming to go back to Jesus. Nathan contradicts himself every time. Pride and disobedience is what Nathan claims is behind people who leave. Seems like honesty to me. Pride and disobedience is what causes people to try and cling to a lie. Typical with cults who try and claim theirs is the true church.
The facts speak for themselves. If all else fails say God revealed it to them. The lying continues and honest people will continue to leave. Nathan is gasping at straws and the straw has broken. Reminds me of someone without a conscience. His pages of lies just reinforce this and the effort workers have gone to in the past to hide their beginnings. Nathan's getting desperate.
The young movement in Nathan's post above shows how mixed up his posts are.. a young movement not an old one dating back to Jesus.
Post by CherieKropp on Jun 18, 2022 21:28:38 GMT -5
Also some history re Govan:
J. G. Govan's father, William Govan Jr. (1819–1883), worked in the family business, William Govan & Son, a textile manufacturer in Glasgow, Scotland, which can be traced back at least to the late eighteenth century. His mother, Margaret Arthur Govan (1822–1891), was the daughter of a Congregational Church minister.
J. G. Govan's early life was influenced by Christian parents, grandparents and godly examples in their family and home. When he was 12 years old (1873), he accepted Christ through an address given by his father. In 1879, his parents re-joined the Congregational Church founded in 1812. J. G. joined in 1881. In 1882, he was profoundly moved while attending about 40 of Moody's meetings in Glasgow. While five of the six Govan brothers "could preach the gospel and preach it well; but probably James would be accepted as the preacher of the family" (William Govan Family Account by James Eustace Govan, June 1980, in author's possession).
John George Govan (1861-1927) With no ecclesiastical credentials, J. G. Govan (age 25) started the Faith Mission on October 14, 1886.
Last Edit: Jun 18, 2022 21:29:37 GMT -5 by CherieKropp
Owner of: Telling The Truth (TTT) Website There are just two kinds of people: One to whom Belief...is more precious than Truth, And the other to whom Truth...is more precious than Belief.
Cherie writes the facts. You write heresay and what people make up. You take things out of context and omit things that don't suit you, Nathan.
You make claims to the effect that people do not mean what they say. The 2x2s had nothing to do with the Waldensians, nor did the Faith Mission which Irvine broke away from and started his own church. Cherie has exposed time and time again the lie and claims that this goes back to Jesus. You sound desperate to save yourself instead of facing the truth. I realize the cost of facing the truth is painful but it's worth it, Nathan.
Owner of: Telling The Truth (TTT) Website There are just two kinds of people: One to whom Belief...is more precious than Truth, And the other to whom Truth...is more precious than Belief.
You're barking up a dead tree Nathan. The 2x2 church had nothing to do with the Waldensians. Twist the Bible all you want. You have confirmed time and time again that this cannot be the true church by the scripture you quote. His church will not die out. The 2x2s were a new church not a continuation. Christianity on the other hand has not died out and has continued since Jesus day.
His church has not died out. Jesus was not talking about a denomination but His church which is made up of believers everywhere. You're confirming the cult status of your church when you try and claim his church is your church. Don't start on about the workers ministry because the workers ministry died out many years ago when they changed them to the status of pastor.
From what I remember Cooney and others also did not mention the Waldensians. It was a theory Cornelius Jaenen came up with and he stated so. Why don't you join the Waldensians....that's right....they died out.
Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine! Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11
Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine! Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11
What William Irvine imparted to his converts the Faith Mission or Jesus Christ 2x2 apostolic/workers New Testament ministry is still going forth today and still working like in the days of Jesus and the apostles through the centuries.
William Irvine was a fool for NOT continuing what God has revealed to him, like Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silvers. William Irvine went off into the deep end due to his pride, fleshly lusts of women, false teachings the return of Jesus Christ in 1917.
Dr. Jaenen the author of Apostles Doctrine book wrote:
In March 1898, when Irvine was preaching in Borrisokane, in County Tipperary, Edward Cooney approach him, "each claiming the liberty to follow Jesus as (he) received progressive light from God by the Spirit." In June 1898, several of these workers, who were still affiliated with various denominations, met in Kilee to consider ministeral requisites as described in Matthew chapter 10 gospel and related scripture. Cognizant that these scriptures referred specificially to the messianic ministry among the Jews, they also concluded that the conditions for the ministry REMAIN Unchanging throughout the New Testament. The commission was broadened beyond Palestined, the special manifestations of healing and exorcism were fulfilled, but the requirement for apostolic ministry remained Unaltered.
John Long, Fred Hughes, and William Irivine decided to launch out "by faith" like the Twelve apostles. Others joined them, including Edward Cooney, who gave up his job, renounced his inheritance, sold his possessions, distributed the money among the poor to become what became known as a "Tramp Preacher." Ben Boles, William Gill, Tom Turner, and John Sullivan gave up their employement to become poor, itinerant "Go-Preachers" completely dependent evangelists. In 1900 another group joined forces with them. Robert Hamilton and David Donaldson is Derrygonnelly became so dissatisfied with the ministry of Patrick O' Donavan in the Methodist church that they withdrew and started their own meetings in the Hamilton's home. Within three years of joining forces, their assembly produced Six persons who sold their possessions and went into the ministry.
In 1901 a number of Todd's Christian workers joined forces with the "Tramps" or "Go-Preachers". William Irvine'sexperience and contacts, despite his sometimes erratic behavior, enable him to assume a leading role in the movement.So it was that a number of men and the women from various religious groups came together as the nucleus of what they believed to be a revival of an apostolic ministry.
As the 2x2s Go-Preachers movement expanded beyond the Irish counties and the British Isles, a primitive hierarchy, or collective oversight by senior ministers, was established over the "fields" of an expanding world-wide community. This eventually gave the rise to questions of origins and founders.
There followed a situation not dissimilar to that challenging Inquisitors in the 12th and 13th Centuries who were Unable to determine who had founded the heresies they sought to Exterminate. The mediaeval heretics (Waldensians, Cathars, Lollards, Vaudois, etc) themselves were unaware of such founders and they believed that the preachers they knew were true apostles inasmuch as they lived according to evangelical precepts.
The Irish revivals produced a similar situation because leadership was COLLECTIVE and evangelization was NOT carried out by Individuals. There is sufficient evidence to support the interpretation given by one of the original participants, George Walker (1898 Go-Preacher), presented to the American Selective Service in 1942. William Irvine and Edward Cooney were eventually expelled by their co-workers. William Irvine asserted, at one point, that he had personally FOUNDED the movement but it was a claim that was NEVER admitted generally by the community. It was a claim resurrected almost a century later by detractors of the movement who sought to associate it with one particular individual.
In fact, AFTER William Irvine being excluded from the ministry 1914 for moral laxity, Irvine adopted outlandish millennialist theology, perhaps influenced by the theories of Charles Russel and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, and repair to Jerusalem where he waited the expected Second Advent in 1914, believing that he was one of the two faithful witnesses mentioned in Apocalypse (Revelation chapter 11).
Excommunication of William Irvine 1914. In September 1914, William Irvine was ousted for some sort of scandal (sexual misconduct behaviors with married women) and he was teaching false doctrines. He had written many letters to the friends all over the USA and Canada to sell their homes, farms, and invest their money in railroads, fisheries, canneries, shipping, etc.
He was under the awful delusion that he is one of the two witnesses of Revelations, Chapter 11, and prophesies a worldwide drought and famine beginning 8/1/1914. Or that they were in the Judgment day period of Revelations as of 8/4/1914; and that the time of mercy and grace was over, etc. It appears from 1918 William Irvine was in California until he left for Jerusalem in 11/1918 to wait for the Prophesies of Revelations Chapter 11, as one of the Lord's anointed ones. He died of throat cancer (from smoking) in Jerusalem in 1947.
Letter #1 By Jack Carroll Warning Against Wm. Irvine's New Doctrine
April 16, 1919
My dear Brother or Sister:
It is with the utmost sorrow of heart that I feel compelled to write you this letter. Feeling my responsibility towards all the lambs and sheep of His flock in California, (USA) and knowing some are worried and troubled because of recent developments I feel I must write you a few lines. During last few months, William Irvine has written many letter to saints all over U.S. and Canada urging them to sell their homes and farms and invest their money in Railroads, Fisheries, Canneries, Shipping, etc. He is under the awful delusion that he is one of the witnesses of Rev. 11 and prophesied a world wide drought and famine beginning August 1 of this year. (See Deut 18:21-22, we have only a little time to wait to prove whether this prophecy is correct or not). He is also under the delusion that the “day of grace ended in August 1914,” and that since that date “the voice of God has not been heard in any meeting on earth.”
This means that, according to him none have been truly born again during the last four and a half years, and that the labors of all the workers in every field has been utterly in vain. We believe on the contrary, that during the last 4-1/2 years, in spite of greater difficulties than ever before, men and women were as truly born of God as in all the years before. It is just 4-1/2 years ago since the older workers in old country told William Irvine that they could no longer recognize him as leader, or again as being in the ministry unless there was a complete change in his manner of life. It is sad to see a man who was once used of God fall thus into “the snare of the devil” and perhaps will succeed as Hymenaeus and Philetus in “overthrowing the faith of some”.
Paul’s advice in 2 Timothy 2:16-18 is the counsel of God to all of us at that time. It has always been understood in the work that when a worker interferes with the financial or business affairs of the saints, he has departed from the faith. 2 Tim. 2:4; Luke 12:13,14. My purpose in writing is to earnestly urge you not to be influenced by his foolish speculations and prophecies, and not to listen to him or any others who would seek to seduce or lead astray, or to cause you in any way to take steps which would wreck your home and family and make you a stumbling block to others.
When Paul was writing to young converts of the Lord’s Coming in 1 Thes 4:13-18 he did not exhort them to sell their homes and farms and invest their money in other properties, but rather to (v.11) “study to be quiet, to do their own business, work with their own hands, as we commanded you, that ye may walk honestly toward them that are without and have need of nothing”.
This means that whether the Lord comes soon or later, it is the duty of the saints to carry on their business as always in the fear of the Lord, and with a desire to glorify His Name. In doing this they will “not be ashamed before Him at His coming”. His teaching on other matters is equally false and misleading and it is with much sorrow of heart that I have to add that my sister, May, W. Edwards, and wife have recently come again under the influence of William Irvine’s hypnotic personality, and for the time being at least, are deceived and not in a position to help or guide those who in simplicity of heart and true purpose seek to follow Jesus in the way.
We feel that it would give those who have “gone astray” an opportunity to say they were “persecuted”, “oppressed”, “cast out” if we were to add more. Enough has been said to warn against the delusions mentioned, and we will be glad to hear from all who desire, and will value our help and fellowship in the coming months and years. You will understand a little of what it costs me to write this letter but I feel it is my duty as His servant to take the saints into my fullest confidence and assuring each and all of my love and honest desire to be a faithful shepherd, I commit you to the care of the Chief Shepherd, knowing that if you follow where He leads, you will not go astray.
Your brother in His love and Service
Jack Carroll
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I don't think so! Cherie... You are filled with your own idea and those like you don't know or accept the FULL church history of Jesus 2x2s apostolic Itinerant ministry Vaudois/Waldenses, Albigenses, Cathars, Lollards, and many like them through the centuries. You just start and stop with William Irvine beginning in 1897!
George Gittens' letter and Raymond's letter have shown about the Vaudois connection... How did they KNOW or HEARD about them?
I don't think so! Cherie... You are filled with your own idea and those like you don't know or accept the FULL church history of Jesus 2x2s apostolic Itinerant ministry Vaudois/Waldenses, Albigenses, Cathars, Lollards, and many like them through the centuries. You just start and stop with William Irvine beginning in 1897!
George Gittens' letter and Raymond's letter have shown about the Vaudois connection... How did they KNOW or HEARD about them?
Your theory has too many holes, Cherie.
Throughout the course of Cherie's work she has been fully awake to people like you, and hence her determination to differentiate between FACT and Opinion/Theory/Hearsay.
Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine! Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11
I don't think so! Cherie... You are filled with your own idea and those like you don't know or accept the FULL church history of Jesus 2x2s apostolic Itinerant ministry Vaudois/Waldenses, Albigenses, Cathars, Lollards, and many like them through the centuries. You just start and stop with William Irvine beginning in 1897!
George Gittens' letter and Raymond's letter have shown about the Vaudois connection... How did they KNOW or HEARD about them?
Your theory has too many holes, Cherie.
Throughout the course of Cherie's work she has been fully awake to people like you, and hence her determination to differentiate between FACT and Opinion/Theory/Hearsay.
Throughout the course of Cherie's work she has been fully awake to people like you, and hence her determination to differentiate between FACT and Opinion/Theory/Hearsay.
Throughout the course of Cherie's work she has been fully awake to people like you, and hence her determination to differentiate between FACT and Opinion/Theory/Hearsay.
Throughout the course of Cherie's work she has been fully awake to people like you, and hence her determination to differentiate between FACT and Opinion/Theory/Hearsay.
Cherie K. fools people like you/fixit for almost 30 years hook, line and sinker but NOT the workers and the friends, like me who had received a Revelation from God. Even an ex-2x2 on TMB can see it clearer than you.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)
I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees.
Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
Throughout the course of Cherie's work she has been fully awake to people like you, and hence her determination to differentiate between FACT and Opinion/Theory/Hearsay.
Cherie K. fools people like you/fixit for almost 30 years hook, line and sinker but NOT the workers and the friends, like me who had received a Revelation from God. Even an ex-2x2 on TMB can see it clearer than you.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)
I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees.
Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
Many many churches attended Keswick conventions and were steeped in the holiness movement. It was part of mainline Christianity just as the Faith Mission was and is still talked about in churches today. Further proof that the Faith Mission was mainline missionary organization. So what if Irvine attended a couple of times. Means nothing.
Throughout the course of Cherie's work she has been fully awake to people like you, and hence her determination to differentiate between FACT and Opinion/Theory/Hearsay.
Cherie K. fools people like you/fixit for almost 30 years hook, line and sinker but NOT the workers and the friends, like me who had received a Revelation from God.
If it's a revelation from God then you can stop all the endless genealogies back to the time of Jesus.
Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine! Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11
Cherie K. fools people like you/fixit for almost 30 years hook, line and sinker but NOT the workers and the friends, like me who had received a Revelation from God.
If it's a revelation from God then you can stop all the endless genealogies back to the time of Jesus.
In other words, Nathan has no proof and is just making it up. Wishful thinking. I do wish Nathan would be honest for once. He has to convince himself of so much just to keep believing. He's proved that the 2x2s are from mainstream Christianity. Were involved in mainline activities and were nothing to do with he Waldensians. Interesting though, no one except him is being fooled.
If it's a revelation from God then you can stop all the endless genealogies back to the time of Jesus.
In other words, Nathan has no proof and is just making it up. Wishful thinking. I do wish Nathan would be honest for once. He has to convince himself of so much just to keep believing. He's proved that the 2x2s are from mainstream Christianity. We're involved in mainline activities and were nothing to do with he Waldensians. Interesting though, no one except him is being fooled.
People talking like Nate is on here are either:
1. Chronically deceived, or
2. Convinced that telling a "little white lie" is justifiable to keep people in the meetings.
Actually, either way they are deceived.
Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine! Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. ~ Romans 13:13 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. ~ Galatians 5:19 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. ~ Ephesians 5:11
charlesfoxtrot: The FBI is seeking victim voices of the 2x2s. Report at: www.fbi.gov/2x2
Feb 21, 2024 13:27:31 GMT -5
Deleted: I saw yesterday that a letter sent to members of a church was actually copied, and distributed all over the world. I think it was Paul's letter to the Corinthians.
Jan 23, 2024 14:50:44 GMT -5
chap5act38: I never would put letters of preachers sent to members of any church at a website. How would you like it, when i put a letter of your husband to you in public? Well, not very decent. In ALL churches there are some not good. Ok, let it, and live for God.
Nov 16, 2023 12:40:00 GMT -5
chap5act38: there are about 1000 sort of churches. If we make of all wrong churches a website like this. We don't have time to look for where God wants us to be at Sunday. I never would make of any wrong church a website, you keep on 'hanging' in what hurted.
Nov 16, 2023 12:37:53 GMT -5
chap5act38: Every wrong Group I was in, God showed it to me. No woman or man had to do that. I saw it and went away.
Nov 15, 2023 17:06:27 GMT -5
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chap5act38: God is Almighty, leave it to Him, He can open eyes.. He doesn’t need you 4 that.
Nov 15, 2023 17:05:02 GMT -5
chap5act38: I prefer to put time in looking 4 a good Group. Life is short. Why time many years for this? You look obsessed... People after all do what they want. So …
Nov 15, 2023 17:00:15 GMT -5
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chap5act38: Get a life miss Kropp…
Nov 15, 2023 16:58:38 GMT -5
chap5act38: Poor miss Kropp. All money + time y put in this. Can’t believe it. But you must be obsessed totally. Go and look 4 another church. Give them time etc
Nov 15, 2023 16:57:57 GMT -5
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chap5act38: what If you fight against God…. If it is not good, once y see. I was in wrong Groups, glad to be away when I discovered it was wrong.. If I would make a Website of all wrong groups it hurts only.. and there are many many wrong groups..
Nov 15, 2023 16:56:50 GMT -5
chap5act38: why put time etc in this church? When you don’t want it, look 4 another one. If you write about all wrong churches you never will have a life and time for work etc.
Nov 15, 2023 16:51:03 GMT -5
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chap5act38: Well, when y do not like this church, surch further! I don’t understand a person that is giving so much time to this. Look for a church y think is ok. I was long ago in wrong groups, but God showed me that! Don’t need y. to see it.
Nov 15, 2023 16:49:36 GMT -5
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countryroads: There seem to be various versions of the rumor about Frandle floating around. The latest is that he went to a couple of conventions in the western part of the U.S. and was denied entry. These unconfirmed stories are perhaps actively harmful in that, if unt
Aug 10, 2023 9:27:03 GMT -5
Deleted: Ah your opinion he is Greek, good to know...
Jul 30, 2023 15:55:33 GMT -5
BobWilliston: That's what I said -- he was Greek. The great Saint Augustine explained how he injected Paul's christian thought into "Christianity". Remember, Paul wrote that he was only interested in "Jesus the christ", not Jesus the man or Jesus the messiah.
Jul 29, 2023 20:57:29 GMT -5
Deleted: Paul was greek? Where does it say that?
Jul 16, 2023 8:29:47 GMT -5
BobWilliston: Yes, being a Greek Jew, he was referring to the style of a Greek "christ", as opposed to a Jewish "messiah". The Jews never look(ed) for a "christ" -- they only expected a "messiah". The foundation of Christianity through Augustine.
Jul 15, 2023 23:34:56 GMT -5
darrell: In the 2nd chapter of 1st corinthians Paul said when i first came unto you i determined not to know anything among you but Jesus Christ and him crucified.Nothing complicated.Not a list of rules.But the vital piece of doctrine that is before any behaviour.
Jun 17, 2023 12:48:17 GMT -5