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Post by guest8 on Jun 18, 2022 21:53:01 GMT -5
If you're endeavouring to engage in intelligent conversation with Bob, I suggest you think beyond using some unknown 1980's boot camp slang to make a point. *endeavoring Nope, only talking to you and lowering the bar to do so.... * endeavouring on this side of the globe but won't hold it against you using endeavoring. You were engaging in conversation with Bob when you used the bootcamp slang , not with me. But it appears you forget.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2022 21:55:08 GMT -5
Nope the Old DS was pretty clear when yelling idjitcation... DS may have been a idiot himself, or it’s a little known colloquialism. I've yet to hear of one that is an idiot....d!cks of course, idiots no.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2022 21:58:23 GMT -5
*endeavoring Nope, only talking to you and lowering the bar to do so.... * endeavouring on this side of the globe but won't hold it against you using endeavoring. You were engaging in conversation with Bob when you used the bootcamp slang , not with me. But it appears you forget. I stand corrected....
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 18, 2022 23:41:15 GMT -5
If you're endeavouring to engage in intelligent conversation with Bob, I suggest you think beyond using some unknown 1980's boot camp slang to make a point. *endeavoring Nope, only talking to you and lowering the bar to do so.... way .......DOWN .................. LOW
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 18, 2022 23:43:56 GMT -5
*endeavoring Nope, only talking to you and lowering the bar to do so.... way .......DOWN .................. LOWFortunately Wally by no means represents the people of the church he goes to.
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Post by intelchips on Jun 22, 2022 12:12:36 GMT -5
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Post by mountain on Jun 22, 2022 16:49:22 GMT -5
By that logic, anyone that built a wheelbarrow could still push it if he removed the wheel, so long as he was the one that built it. Poor analogy.. I disagree. It's a lot worse than poor!
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Post by intelchips on Jul 22, 2022 18:04:24 GMT -5
From wiki we find "In terms of number of adherents, nontrinitarian denominations comprise a small minority of modern Christians. The largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Oneness Pentecostals, Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, and the Iglesia ni Cristo. There are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Church of the Blessed Hope, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Assemblies of Yahweh, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Christians, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International, the United Church of God, Church of God General Conference, Restored Church of God, and Church of God of the Faith of Abraham." Wonder why the 2x2 failed to make it?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 15, 2022 1:28:39 GMT -5
It's interesting that Irvine's church took several years before they started holding Sunday morning meetings in a home.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2022 14:43:41 GMT -5
This topic keeps coming up so I could not resist a crack at the question.
The answer, of course, is around 70 AD, when the gospel of Mark was written.
At that time the apostles were spreading the Gospel, 2x2, and with no hint of Trinitarianism for another 300 years.
Some argue that 1 John 5:7-8 is an indication of the Trinity, but these verses were not inserted into the Bible until 400 AD, at the very earliest. The verses do not appear in the oldest manuscripts.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 12, 2022 14:45:49 GMT -5
It's interesting that Irvine's church took several years before they started holding Sunday morning meetings in a home. Because they grew out of Faith Mission meetings which were held mainly for members of various denominations and never held in competition with established Sunday church services. However, some attendees of Faith Mission meetings preferred mission meetings over their Sunday congregations and voila, new denomination.
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Post by guest8 on Oct 12, 2022 16:05:21 GMT -5
It's interesting that Irvine's church took several years before they started holding Sunday morning meetings in a home. Because they grew out of Faith Mission meetings which were held mainly for members of various denominations and never held in competition with established Sunday church services. However, some attendees of Faith Mission meetings preferred mission meetings over their Sunday congregations and voila, new denomination. Hi What Hat, I notice a certain poster trots out your name in an attempt to verify a theory that the friends church continued in an unbroken chain from the shores of Galilee. Including reference to Waldensians etc I would like to hear from you. To read your thoughts today. Our understanding can evolve and I'm interested in knowing, do you still perceive it that way today. ( Hope I've got the right person.) Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2022 19:47:11 GMT -5
Because they grew out of Faith Mission meetings which were held mainly for members of various denominations and never held in competition with established Sunday church services. However, some attendees of Faith Mission meetings preferred mission meetings over their Sunday congregations and voila, new denomination. Hi What Hat, I notice a certain poster trots out your name in an attempt to verify a theory that the friends church continued in an unbroken chain from the shores of Galilee. Including reference to Waldensians etc I would like to hear from you. To read your thoughts today. Our understanding can evolve and I'm interested in knowing, do you still perceive it that way today. ( Hope I've got the right person.) Cheers. Whathat did not post saying that, his post showed it hopping through time from denomination to denomination...its not unbroken.
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Post by guest8 on Oct 12, 2022 19:50:14 GMT -5
My post was specifically to What Hat.
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Post by guest8 on Oct 12, 2022 19:54:46 GMT -5
Because they grew out of Faith Mission meetings which were held mainly for members of various denominations and never held in competition with established Sunday church services. However, some attendees of Faith Mission meetings preferred mission meetings over their Sunday congregations and voila, new denomination. Hi What Hat, I notice a certain poster trots out your name in an attempt to verify a theory that the friends church continued in an unbroken chain from the shores of Galilee. Including reference to Waldensians etc I would like to hear from you. To read your thoughts today. Our understanding can evolve and I'm interested in knowing, do you still perceive it that way today. ( Hope I've got the right person.) Cheers.
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Post by nathan on Oct 13, 2022 9:09:02 GMT -5
This topic keeps coming up so I could not resist a crack at the question. The answer, of course, is around 70 AD, when the gospel of Mark was written. At that time the apostles were spreading the Gospel, 2x2, and with no hint of Trinitarianism for another 300 years. Some argue that 1 John 5:7-8 is an indication of the Trinity, but these verses were not inserted into the Bible until 400 AD, at the very earliest. The verses do not appear in the oldest manuscripts. T hanks, Whathat...
The concept or the theme of Trinity/Triune God has been taught from Genesis to Revelation.
John the apostle just confirmed about the concept and teaching of the Triune God= God Father, the Lord God Christ our Savior, and the Holy Spirit our Teacher, Comforter, and Guide in the gospel of John, the epistles of John I, II, III and the book of Revelation.
The apostles in the Second century coined the word "Trinity/Triune God" to describe the Godhead= Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit and the RCC in the 4th century accepted as one of their main doctrines, the Deity of Christ and Jesus is God the Christ/Son NOT God the Father. They are 3 separate Divine Beings but ONE Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit.
professing.proboards.com/thread/31498/which-2x2s-anti-trinity-believers?page=2
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Post by What Hat on Oct 14, 2022 10:53:54 GMT -5
Because they grew out of Faith Mission meetings which were held mainly for members of various denominations and never held in competition with established Sunday church services. However, some attendees of Faith Mission meetings preferred mission meetings over their Sunday congregations and voila, new denomination. Hi What Hat, I notice a certain poster trots out your name in an attempt to verify a theory that the friends church continued in an unbroken chain from the shores of Galilee. Including reference to Waldensians etc I would like to hear from you. To read your thoughts today. Our understanding can evolve and I'm interested in knowing, do you still perceive it that way today. ( Hope I've got the right person.) Cheers. I don't think I've ever argued for a form of apostolic succession. Some workers don't like this term, but clearly it is what they argued for when stating "this goes back to Galilee". Although they coyly don't elaborate greatly on what 'this' is. I suppose the objection is that 'workers' aren't exactly 'apostles' like Paul or Silas, but then when did apostles become workers? The Catholics would have the strongest claim to apostolic succession but there are gaps in the historical record. All I ever argued for is a succession of ideas - that the doctrine of the f&w isn't novel, did not spring forth whole cloth from the mind of William Irvine, and that the core ideas have existed throughout history. I do reject the idea that the work of the Holy Spirit requires intervention through a worker, and the idea that a 'divine anointing' from one generation of workers to the next is required in order to spread the Gospel. So that was in the past. Along the way, I've become more of a universalist Christian. I liked a lot of the doctrine on the Tentmaker web site, but tbh have not looked in some years. After we left the friends we did participate in some home church activity for a number of years. Still friends with these various folks, but the meetings themselves dissolved due to, to put it politely, an inability to co-ordinate schedules. Once COVID is more in remission, I will be looking for an active, conventional church community once again, but tbh, I really like lazy Sundays at this point in my life. I have no great anxiety on how my life will be judged given my universalist leanings, but I do miss worship practice.
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Post by snow on Oct 14, 2022 14:04:32 GMT -5
Hi What Hat, I notice a certain poster trots out your name in an attempt to verify a theory that the friends church continued in an unbroken chain from the shores of Galilee. Including reference to Waldensians etc I would like to hear from you. To read your thoughts today. Our understanding can evolve and I'm interested in knowing, do you still perceive it that way today. ( Hope I've got the right person.) Cheers. I don't think I've ever argued for a form of apostolic succession. Some workers don't like this term, but clearly it is what they argued for when stating "this goes back to Galilee". Although they coyly don't elaborate greatly on what 'this' is. I suppose the objection is that 'workers' aren't exactly 'apostles' like Paul or Silas, but then when did apostles become workers? The Catholics would have the strongest claim to apostolic succession but there are gaps in the historical record. All I ever argued for is a succession of ideas - that the doctrine of the f&w isn't novel, did not spring forth whole cloth from the mind of William Irvine, and that the core ideas have existed throughout history. I do reject the idea that the work of the Holy Spirit requires intervention through a worker, and the idea that a 'divine anointing' from one generation of workers to the next is required in order to spread the Gospel. So that was in the past. Along the way, I've become more of a universalist Christian. I liked a lot of the doctrine on the Tentmaker web site, but tbh have not looked in some years. After we left the friends we did participate in some home church activity for a number of years. Still friends with these various folks, but the meetings themselves dissolved due to, to put it politely, an inability to co-ordinate schedules. Once COVID is more in remission, I will be looking for an active, conventional church community once again, but tbh, I really like lazy Sundays at this point in my life. I have no great anxiety on how my life will be judged given my universalist leanings, but I do miss worship practice. It's just one more example of Nathan being dishonest. He claims that you said it's an unbroken line from the sea of Galilee to the current workers. Not just an idea but actual groups throughout the years that were workers. He claims the organization that Irvine came out of were workers but he can't give a list of names before Irvine formed the 2x2's. I don't deny that there have been groups off and on throughout history that tried to mimic the early apostles more closely than the RCC, but there is no unbroken line from the beginning as the workers claimed many times.
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Post by guest8 on Oct 14, 2022 14:36:46 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever argued for a form of apostolic succession. Some workers don't like this term, but clearly it is what they argued for when stating "this goes back to Galilee". Although they coyly don't elaborate greatly on what 'this' is. I suppose the objection is that 'workers' aren't exactly 'apostles' like Paul or Silas, but then when did apostles become workers? The Catholics would have the strongest claim to apostolic succession but there are gaps in the historical record. All I ever argued for is a succession of ideas - that the doctrine of the f&w isn't novel, did not spring forth whole cloth from the mind of William Irvine, and that the core ideas have existed throughout history. I do reject the idea that the work of the Holy Spirit requires intervention through a worker, and the idea that a 'divine anointing' from one generation of workers to the next is required in order to spread the Gospel. So that was in the past. Along the way, I've become more of a universalist Christian. I liked a lot of the doctrine on the Tentmaker web site, but tbh have not looked in some years. After we left the friends we did participate in some home church activity for a number of years. Still friends with these various folks, but the meetings themselves dissolved due to, to put it politely, an inability to co-ordinate schedules. Once COVID is more in remission, I will be looking for an active, conventional church community once again, but tbh, I really like lazy Sundays at this point in my life. I have no great anxiety on how my life will be judged given my universalist leanings, but I do miss worship practice. It's just one more example of Nathan being dishonest. He claims that you said it's an unbroken line from the sea of Galilee to the current workers. Not just an idea but actual groups throughout the years that were workers. He claims the organization that Irvine came out of were workers but he can't give a list of names before Irvine formed the 2x2's. I don't deny that there have been groups off and on throughout history that tried to mimic the early apostles more closely than the RCC, but there is no unbroken line from the beginning as the workers claimed many times. Exactly Snow. Thats why I wanted What Hat to clarify it.
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Post by nathan on Oct 15, 2022 0:39:47 GMT -5
The Vaudois apostles claimed they are unbroken apostolic succession just like the RCC has done the same, because they came from the same cloth of Jesus Christ New Testament Church. The Vaudois continue to uphold Christ Jesus New Testament ministry and fellowship teachings for 1800 years. Read Rev. chapters 11-12 the True Church of Christ through the centuries.The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101 Who are the Vaudois and Where did they come from? The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.
The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.
When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.
To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith." ~~ The RCC in Rome by the 3rd century they departed from Christ New Testament teachings and the bishop/elder leadership in Rome taken over the 2-3rd century apostolic ministry, they add pagans ceremonials, rituals to the church to draw more converts. Read Rev. chapters 17-18.www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century. The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord.
And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 15, 2022 1:44:09 GMT -5
It's just one more example of Nathan being dishonest. He claims that you said it's an unbroken line from the sea of Galilee to the current workers. Not just an idea but actual groups throughout the years that were workers. He claims the organization that Irvine came out of were workers but he can't give a list of names before Irvine formed the 2x2's. I don't deny that there have been groups off and on throughout history that tried to mimic the early apostles more closely than the RCC, but there is no unbroken line from the beginning as the workers claimed many times. Exactly Snow. Thats why I wanted What Hat to clarify it. Thank you for clearing that up guest8 and What Hat, I called nathan out about this recently on the main board.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 15, 2022 1:45:49 GMT -5
The Vaudois apostles claimed they are unbroken apostolic succession just like the RCC has done the same, because they came from the same cloth of Jesus Christ New Testament Church. The Vaudois continue to uphold Christ Jesus New Testament ministry and fellowship teachings for 1800 years. Read Rev. chapters 11-12 the True Church of Christ through the centuries.The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101 Who are the Vaudois and Where did they come from? The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.
The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.
When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.
To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith." ~~ The RCC in Rome by the 3rd century they departed from Christ New Testament teachings and the bishop/elder leadership in Rome taken over the 2-3rd century apostolic ministry, they add pagans ceremonials, rituals to the church to draw more converts. Read Rev. chapters 17-18.www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century. The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord.
And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it. So you twisted what What Hat actually said nathan! Do you ever learn?
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Post by nathan on Oct 15, 2022 8:57:04 GMT -5
Exactly Snow. Thats why I wanted What Hat to clarify it. Thank you for clearing that up guest8 and What Hat , I called nathan out about this recently on the main board. No, I explained on the main page. The post mostly Whathat, I just add the Wiki on the Holiness movement and picture how the 2x2 workers dressed and look like them, with their signs and tents mission... to show who were the Holiness he was talking about in his post and at that time he was Spot on...# 2) Hi Nathan, While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story. One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling he went into the ministry in 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk. George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.). During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France= The Waldenses some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.) In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. (George also told us that he had heard George Walker say that we owed a lot to William Irvine because he was the first worker in modern times to sell everything and go out on faith to preach the gospel.) The following day George went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish." I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home. In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. Raymond G. Reed, December, 2005 The author of the Seldom gate book
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Post by intelchips on Oct 15, 2022 10:08:18 GMT -5
Thank you for clearing that up guest8 and What Hat , I called nathan out about this recently on the main board. No, I explained on the main page. The post mostly Whathat, I just add the Wiki on the Holiness movement and picture how the 2x2 workers dressed and look like them, with their signs and tents mission... to show who were the Holiness he was talking about in his post and at that time he was Spot on...# 2) Hi Nathan, While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story. One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling he went into the ministry in 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk. George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.). During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France= The Waldenses some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.) In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. (George also told us that he had heard George Walker say that we owed a lot to William Irvine because he was the first worker in modern times to sell everything and go out on faith to preach the gospel.) The following day George went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish." I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home. In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. Raymond G. Reed, December, 2005 The author of the Seldom gate book Using the lack of evidence as proffer to affirm is rarely effective. Yes, in special cases it is a valid method of proving history but not very often. And then to counterbalance your Hyperbolic tale you must invent a few more facts. So go ahead and tell us someone in the stories link mentioned the Waldense besides yourself. Let me help you. You might add to your story by saying, in my opinion this sounds very much like the Waldense. See Nathan that would be acceptable.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 15, 2022 21:27:41 GMT -5
The Vaudois apostles claimed they are unbroken apostolic succession just like the RCC has done the same, because they came from the same cloth of Jesus Christ New Testament Church. The Vaudois continue to uphold Christ Jesus New Testament ministry and fellowship teachings for 1800 years. Read Rev. chapters 11-12 the True Church of Christ through the centuries.The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101 Who are the Vaudois and Where did they come from? The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.
The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.
When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.
To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith." ~~ The RCC in Rome by the 3rd century they departed from Christ New Testament teachings and the bishop/elder leadership in Rome taken over the 2-3rd century apostolic ministry, they add pagans ceremonials, rituals to the church to draw more converts. Read Rev. chapters 17-18.www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century. The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord.
And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it. Gaslighting again.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 15, 2022 21:29:30 GMT -5
Don't ever trust him to quote ANYONE correctly.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 16, 2022 3:36:38 GMT -5
Don't ever trust him to quote ANYONE correctly. Exactly BobWilliston !
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Post by intelchips on Oct 16, 2022 7:34:19 GMT -5
The Vaudois apostles claimed they are unbroken apostolic succession just like the RCC has done the same, because they came from the same cloth of Jesus Christ New Testament Church. The Vaudois continue to uphold Christ Jesus New Testament ministry and fellowship teachings for 1800 years. Read Rev. chapters 11-12 the True Church of Christ through the centuries.The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101 Who are the Vaudois and Where did they come from? The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.
The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.
When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.
To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith." ~~ The RCC in Rome by the 3rd century they departed from Christ New Testament teachings and the bishop/elder leadership in Rome taken over the 2-3rd century apostolic ministry, they add pagans ceremonials, rituals to the church to draw more converts. Read Rev. chapters 17-18.www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century. The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord.
And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it. Gaslighting again. "apostles claimed"
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