|
Post by openingact34 on Feb 19, 2022 12:46:35 GMT -5
I never realized this before, but this pastor is actually exactly right. In Luke 22, Jesus told them "He that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." The disciples responded that they had two swords. Jesus was telling them to buy weapons that would have been illegal for them to purchase or possess.
So the recommendation by this preacher at the end of the sermon might not be the best. He advises people to buy the AR-15, which is legal in most parts of the USA. Buying an illegal concealable submachine gun would be more scriptural and in line with what Jesus and the apostles actually did.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2022 12:56:55 GMT -5
Don't worry they will be attempting to ban the sale of AR15's again here shortly thereby fitting in with your theory....
|
|
muse2
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by muse2 on Jun 3, 2022 12:08:02 GMT -5
Here's another take on that verse.
If you review the last supper in all four gospels and put them together, you'll get a clearer picture of the context for that verse.
During the last supper Jesus identified Judas as the traitor and when Judas left he took the "bag" another word for purse. After he left, others thought he went to buy supplies. That is when Jesus referred to the one with the purse. So then Jesus could be alerting the other apostles what to do about it. He that has the purse, let him take it. However, such a person would be wise to sell his garment and buy a sword. In the garden of Olives that same night, Jesus protected the eleven apostles, but Judas was on his own. Traitors always have to watch their back, because eventually someone will come after them in retaliation. Therefore, traitors need to buy swords, not followers of Christ. Again that very same night, Jesus told Peter to put up his sword (even in a self defense situation). He reminded Peter that thousands of angels were at His disposal. In cases of self-defense all we need to do is pray and let God's will be done whether it be life or death.
I know this to be true. For in a desperate hour of life and death, I prayed and witnessed an unseen power restrain a violent man from acting on his impulses.
For those Christians who feel the need for weapons, I daresay Jesus would say "O, ye of little faith".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 12:22:56 GMT -5
Here's another take on that verse. If you review the last supper in all four gospels and put them together, you'll get a clearer picture of the context for that verse. During the last supper Jesus identified Judas as the traitor and when Judas left he took the "bag" another word for purse. After he left, others thought he went to buy supplies. That is when Jesus referred to the one with the purse. So then Jesus could be alerting the other apostles what to do about it. He that has the purse, let him take it. However, such a person would be wise to sell his garment and buy a sword. In the garden of Olives that same night, Jesus protected the eleven apostles, but Judas was on his own. Traitors always have to watch their back, because eventually someone will come after them in retaliation. Therefore, traitors need to buy swords, not followers of Christ. Again that very same night, Jesus told Peter to put up his sword (even in a self defense situation). He reminded Peter that thousands of angels were at His disposal. In cases of self-defense all we need to do is pray and let God's will be done whether it be life or death. I know this to be true. For in a desperate hour of life and death, I prayed and witnessed an unseen power restrain a violent man from acting on his impulses. For those Christians who feel the need for weapons, I daresay Jesus would say "O, ye of little faith". When Christ told Peter to put away his sword that was for a specific event/situation that Christ should be crucified for us Peter was gonna interfere with that. You'll notice he said put away he did not say get rid of. Of note also you'll have to reconcile Jesus telling someone to do something(buy a sword)that would have led to a sin(loping off an ear).
|
|
|
Post by verna on Jun 3, 2022 12:46:37 GMT -5
I never realized this before, but this pastor is actually exactly right. In Luke 22, Jesus told them "He that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." The disciples responded that they had two swords. Jesus was telling them to buy weapons that would have been illegal for them to purchase or possess. So the recommendation by this preacher at the end of the sermon might not be the best. He advises people to buy the AR-15, which is legal in most parts of the USA. Buying an illegal concealable submachine gun would be more scriptural and in line with what Jesus and the apostles actually did. Oh openingact I do have a healthy appreciation for cynicism but I would really like to know who you are (and by that I don’t mean your name/identity) apart from that.
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jun 3, 2022 13:00:58 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 13:17:21 GMT -5
Ummm no that won't do it, but if you rub pig fat on it Muslims will run screaming in the opposite direction....just sayin
|
|
|
Post by xna on Jun 3, 2022 14:51:51 GMT -5
Ummm no that won't do it, but if you rub pig fat on it Muslims will run screaming in the opposite direction....just sayin Stock up on bacon bullets. I had a loaded hand gun in a biometric safes with one in the chamber (Glock 21). After reading about how firemen can get shot in a house fire when the owner has one in the chamber, I decided to go condition 3 for the guns in biometric safes. This will add a few seconds, but I think it's a good trade off. When I carry it's condition 0, usually a Ruger LCP Max, or Glock 19. I only had one negligent discharge. I got a Winchester 30-30 lever action for Christmas. I was about 12 years old and took it outside to load and shoot. It was cold and I had gloves on. Pulling the lever back my glove pulled the trigger and made a big hole about 3 inches from my right foot. I had never saw how a lever action gun worked and had no supervision using any gun. That was a teaching moment. Those were different times. Today this would be child neglect.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 15:20:20 GMT -5
Ummm no that won't do it, but if you rub pig fat on it Muslims will run screaming in the opposite direction....just sayin Stock up on bacon bullets. I had a loaded hand gun in a biometric safes with one in the chamber (Glock 21). After reading about how firemen can get shot in a house fire when the owner has one in the chamber, I decided to go condition 3 for the guns in biometric safes. This will add a few seconds, but I think it's a good trade off. When I carry it's condition 0, usually a Ruger LCP Max, or Glock 19. I only had one negligent discharge. I got a Winchester 30-30 lever action for Christmas. I was about 12 years old and took it outside to load and shoot. It was cold and I had gloves on. Pulling the lever back my glove pulled the trigger and made a big hole about 3 inches from my right foot. I had never saw how a lever action gun worked and had no supervision using any gun. That was a teaching moment. Those were different times. Today this would be child neglect. I had one sorta negligent incident. Was Elk hunting with my cousin and we were putting our rifles away, the safety was on and I tried to open the bolt to get the round out, BAM it went off. luckily I had it pointed in a safe direction.
|
|
muse2
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by muse2 on Jun 4, 2022 18:53:45 GMT -5
Here's another take on that verse. If you review the last supper in all four gospels and put them together, you'll get a clearer picture of the context for that verse. During the last supper Jesus identified Judas as the traitor and when Judas left he took the "bag" another word for purse. After he left, others thought he went to buy supplies. That is when Jesus referred to the one with the purse. So then Jesus could be alerting the other apostles what to do about it. He that has the purse, let him take it. However, such a person would be wise to sell his garment and buy a sword. In the garden of Olives that same night, Jesus protected the eleven apostles, but Judas was on his own. Traitors always have to watch their back, because eventually someone will come after them in retaliation. Therefore, traitors need to buy swords, not followers of Christ. Again that very same night, Jesus told Peter to put up his sword (even in a self defense situation). He reminded Peter that thousands of angels were at His disposal. In cases of self-defense all we need to do is pray and let God's will be done whether it be life or death. I know this to be true. For in a desperate hour of life and death, I prayed and witnessed an unseen power restrain a violent man from acting on his impulses. For those Christians who feel the need for weapons, I daresay Jesus would say "O, ye of little faith". When Christ told Peter to put away his sword that was for a specific event/situation that Christ should be crucified for us Peter was gonna interfere with that. You'll notice he said put away he did not say get rid of. Of note also you'll have to reconcile Jesus telling someone to do something(buy a sword)that would have led to a sin(loping off an ear).
|
|
muse2
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by muse2 on Jun 4, 2022 19:05:50 GMT -5
Actually, Jesus said the following:
"Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." This is not a one-time commandment in order for Jesus to be crucified. The word "All" makes it applicable to everyone in every situation. Please read Revelation 19 to better understand the meaning of perishing with the sword. It's all about being condemned by the Son of God.
Regarding Judas, Jesus had already said it was better if he had never been born. Having a sword in his case made no difference as he was condemned already. (By the way, Judas was not the one lopping off an ear.}
Swords can be used for other purposes besides attacking other humans. So it isn't a commandment of God to get rid of a sword.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2022 21:21:56 GMT -5
Actually, Jesus said the following: "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." This is not a one-time commandment in order for Jesus to be crucified. The word "All" makes it applicable to everyone in every situation. Please read Revelation 19 to better understand the meaning of perishing with the sword. It's all about being condemned by the Son of God. Regarding Judas, Jesus had already said it was better if he had never been born. Having a sword in his case made no difference as he was condemned already. (By the way, Judas was not the one lopping off an ear.} Swords can be used for other purposes besides attacking other humans. So it isn't a commandment of God to get rid of a sword. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. That means if in EVERY situation you try and resolve it with a sword. You will end up dying by it. So did Jesus lie? There are 80 million firearm owners(the sword) including me in just the USA alone and I don't see 80 million deaths yet.... Swords are meant for killing people what other use do you have in mind?
|
|
|
Post by guest8 on Jun 4, 2022 21:35:39 GMT -5
Actually, Jesus said the following: "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." This is not a one-time commandment in order for Jesus to be crucified. The word "All" makes it applicable to everyone in every situation. Please read Revelation 19 to better understand the meaning of perishing with the sword. It's all about being condemned by the Son of God. Regarding Judas, Jesus had already said it was better if he had never been born. Having a sword in his case made no difference as he was condemned already. (By the way, Judas was not the one lopping off an ear.} Swords can be used for other purposes besides attacking other humans. So it isn't a commandment of God to get rid of a sword. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. That means if in EVERY situation you try and resolve it with a sword. You will end up dying by it. So did Jesus lie? There are 80 million firearm owners(the sword) including me in just the USA alone and I don't see 80 million deaths yet.... Swords are meant for killing people what other use do you have in mind? Are you warning people with your threatening looking icon. Fair question.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2022 21:48:05 GMT -5
That means if in EVERY situation you try and resolve it with a sword. You will end up dying by it. So did Jesus lie? There are 80 million firearm owners(the sword) including me in just the USA alone and I don't see 80 million deaths yet.... Swords are meant for killing people what other use do you have in mind? Are you warning people with your threatening looking icon. Fair question. Nope just a guy displaying a knife...
|
|
muse2
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by muse2 on Jun 5, 2022 15:32:30 GMT -5
Apparently, Wally didn't read Revelation 19. Because if he had, he would have understood that when we take up weapons against our fellow man, then Jesus will one day in the future use his two-edged sword likewise.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 5, 2022 16:33:30 GMT -5
That means if in EVERY situation you try and resolve it with a sword. You will end up dying by it. So did Jesus lie? There are 80 million firearm owners(the sword) including me in just the USA alone and I don't see 80 million deaths yet.... Swords are meant for killing people what other use do you have in mind? Are you warning people with your threatening looking icon. Fair question. He's just here to look tough -- like the Uvalde PD.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2022 20:47:19 GMT -5
Apparently, Wally didn't read Revelation 19. Because if he had, he would have understood that when we take up weapons against our fellow man, then Jesus will one day in the future use his two-edged sword likewise. Apparently you have not read Rev. 13. and the war on the saints.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2022 17:33:29 GMT -5
Apparently nobody has read Leviticus 15: 4 "Any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean." Don't know what that has to do with anything, but then again, Jesus being used to sell AR-15s means that this thread is already scraping the bottom of the barrel!
|
|
|
Post by guest8 on Jun 13, 2022 18:05:08 GMT -5
Apparently nobody has read Leviticus 15: 4 "Any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean." Don't know what that has to do with anything, but then again, Jesus being used to sell AR-15s means that this thread is already scraping the bottom of the barrel! Exactly, what they manage to pull of of the barrel in defence is mind boggling!
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 13, 2022 22:15:21 GMT -5
Apparently nobody has read Leviticus 15: 4 "Any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean." Don't know what that has to do with anything, but then again, Jesus being used to sell AR-15s means that this thread is already scraping the bottom of the barrel! Exactly, what they manage to pull of of the barrel in defence is mind boggling! These kinds of defenses work well among one's cronies. They don't work so well when politicians try to use them in a court of law.
|
|
rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
|
Post by rudyw on Jun 14, 2022 21:04:35 GMT -5
Here's another take on that verse. If you review the last supper in all four gospels and put them together, you'll get a clearer picture of the context for that verse. During the last supper Jesus identified Judas as the traitor and when Judas left he took the "bag" another word for purse. After he left, others thought he went to buy supplies. That is when Jesus referred to the one with the purse. So then Jesus could be alerting the other apostles what to do about it. He that has the purse, let him take it. However, such a person would be wise to sell his garment and buy a sword. In the garden of Olives that same night, Jesus protected the eleven apostles, but Judas was on his own. Traitors always have to watch their back, because eventually someone will come after them in retaliation. Therefore, traitors need to buy swords, not followers of Christ. Again that very same night, Jesus told Peter to put up his sword (even in a self defense situation). He reminded Peter that thousands of angels were at His disposal. In cases of self-defense all we need to do is pray and let God's will be done whether it be life or death. I know this to be true. For in a desperate hour of life and death, I prayed and witnessed an unseen power restrain a violent man from acting on his impulses. For those Christians who feel the need for weapons, I daresay Jesus would say "O, ye of little faith". I’d tend to disagree with you. I don’t see anything wrong with being prepared to defend yourself, your family, your friends or your neighbor. God told Joseph to prepare ahead of time for famine; God told Noah to build the ark ahead of time. It’s not a sign of lack of faith to bprepared. It’s common sense. It’s never made sense to expect God to do something, when we have the the means to take care of a situation ourselves.
|
|
rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
|
Post by rudyw on Jun 14, 2022 21:12:56 GMT -5
Apparently, Wally didn't read Revelation 19. Because if he had, he would have understood that when we take up weapons against our fellow man, then Jesus will one day in the future use his two-edged sword likewise. That passage is speaking of those who fight against Jesus at his return. It has nothing to do with self defense (or protecting others) against evil men.
|
|
rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
|
Post by rudyw on Jun 14, 2022 21:20:57 GMT -5
Actually, Jesus said the following: "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." This is not a one-time commandment in order for Jesus to be crucified. The word "All" makes it applicable to everyone in every situation. Please read Revelation 19 to better understand the meaning of perishing with the sword. It's all about being condemned by the Son of God. Regarding Judas, Jesus had already said it was better if he had never been born. Having a sword in his case made no difference as he was condemned already. (By the way, Judas was not the one lopping off an ear.} Swords can be used for other purposes besides attacking other humans. So it isn't a commandment of God to get rid of a sword. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. God is not a pacifist. Nor is Jesus. The OT is full of bloodshed and violence. Revelation 19 speaks of Jesus slaughtering people who fight against him. Yet, you think he’ll slaughter those who practice self defense or who do violence to protect others? I think the opposite. I think he’ll be very disappointed in anyone that is not proactive, and allows evil men to do violence. Self defense and protecting others is the right thing to do.
|
|
muse2
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by muse2 on Jun 15, 2022 10:30:16 GMT -5
Revelation 19 is all about those who fight against the Word. This includes those who fight against His Words to Peter: "Put up thy sword." Your thoughts are not God's thoughts. If you want to think the opposite, that is your choice, but it is not what Jesus taught. It is just your thoughts against his thoughts. That is war, and the Victor will always be Christ.
|
|
rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
|
Post by rudyw on Jun 16, 2022 10:27:32 GMT -5
I understand where you’re coming from. But, I disagree with you.
|
|
rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
|
Post by rudyw on Jun 16, 2022 10:30:22 GMT -5
Revelation 19 is all about those who fight against the Word. This includes those who fight against His Words to Peter: "Put up thy sword." Your thoughts are not God's thoughts. If you want to think the opposite, that is your choice, but it is not what Jesus taught. It is just your thoughts against his thoughts. That is war, and the Victor will always be Christ. God the Father is not a Pacifist. Jesus is not a Pacifist. When you read a passage of scripture:: 1) don’t make a doctrine out of isolated and obscure verses. 2) take the entire passage into consideration. 3) take into account who the audience is (who is the passage speaking to?) Is the passage a commandment to humanity in general? Is is speaking to the entire Church? Is it speaking to the Disciples only (such as Matthew 5, 6 and 7? I can find no injunction in scripture that says the average Joe cannot defend himself. Nor do I see anywhere that a Christian cannot defend others. Does it say somewhere that we can’t be police officers, or soldiers? If it does, I’d be happy and willing to read those passages and study them. But, the passage regarding the sword is not enough to base pacifism on, especially when we should consider items 1-3 above. God and Jesus want us to be like them. God said to “Be holy, for I am holy.” God has no qualms with using violence to control the forces of evil. Nor does Jesus. Yet they are holy.
|
|
muse2
New Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by muse2 on Jun 18, 2022 11:54:53 GMT -5
John the Baptist in preparing people for Jesus taught the soldiers to be nonviolent. Jesus taught his apostles in Matthew 10 that they were to be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves. Jesus taught by example just how to do that. There is no record anywhere in the New Testament that Christians were instructed to use violence, nor is there any record of them acting violently. Jesus was a pacifist while on earth, at his return he will exact vengeance and justice. That is his right, not ours.
Revelation 19 explains the words of Jesus about what it means to "perish by the sword". It simply illustrates what it means to be condemned by the Word of God. This is not an isolated nor obscure verse, it is the entire passage. The audience is all who read it.
There are many ways to subdue/outwit enemies than resorting to violence. One of which is prayer. The truth is our human nature and reasoning default to violence. It is only by the help of God that we can reach a point of true conviction on this topic and then begin the process of overcoming our own thoughts and actions which are contrary to His will for the New Testament church.
I will pray that God will bring experiences into your life that enlighten your understanding of this. You remind me of Saul who believed he was doing God's work when arresting and condemning early Christians to death. It took a pricking and blinding experience for him to do a 180.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2022 13:00:02 GMT -5
John the Baptist in preparing people for Jesus taught the soldiers to be nonviolent. Jesus taught his apostles in Matthew 10 that they were to be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves. Jesus taught by example just how to do that. There is no record anywhere in the New Testament that Christians were instructed to use violence, nor is there any record of them acting violently. Jesus was a pacifist while on earth, at his return he will exact vengeance and justice. That is his right, not ours. Revelation 19 explains the words of Jesus about what it means to "perish by the sword". It simply illustrates what it means to be condemned by the Word of God. This is not an isolated nor obscure verse, it is the entire passage. The audience is all who read it. There are many ways to subdue/outwit enemies than resorting to violence. One of which is prayer. The truth is our human nature and reasoning default to violence. It is only by the help of God that we can reach a point of true conviction on this topic and then begin the process of overcoming our own thoughts and actions which are contrary to His will for the New Testament church. I will pray that God will bring experiences into your life that enlighten your understanding of this. You remind me of Saul who believed he was doing God's work when arresting and condemning early Christians to death. It took a pricking and blinding experience for him to do a 180. Luk_22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. You can't escape this verse.... So then WWI and WWII were wrong? Lot's of Christians killed many bad people during those wars....So was the American Civil war wrong Christians killed many bad people during that war also... If Christians had not used swords to defend themselves and then later firearms for 1900+ years the world would have turned evil all the sooner....
|
|