|
Post by juliette on Jul 13, 2007 23:05:13 GMT -5
I can't imagine a BROTHER worker having the nerve to talk to a married (or unmarried, for that matter) woman about having too much hair and an untidy bun... how personal... did he ask to see your underwear next to make sure they were modest?!?! What is UP with some people... how can they begin to think that those things matter? I think the scariest thing about all of this is that people sit back and take it because of the indoctrination that starts from the time you are very young. I bet if you told someone who didn't grow up in the 2x2 religion this story, they would think you were making it up because it's SO CRAZY!
Happy to be free! Juli
|
|
|
Post by ali on Jul 14, 2007 6:16:00 GMT -5
Juliette, it's the brother worker telling them WHERE on their head to have the bun that to me (as an outsider) is the most unbelievable...but I do believe it. I think this "one bun fits all" rule must be changing though because at the few gospel meetings I went to there was quite a bit of variability...even some artificial flowers in the bun! As a gal with long hair (cut, layered and colored )), I had quite a good time looking at all the different "up-do's".
|
|
|
Post by wanttobewithGod on Jul 14, 2007 6:34:44 GMT -5
So much of this never happened in my experience...or to anyone I know...so that I am just dumbfounded when I read it. That is not to say I don't believe you...I do. You have no reason to lie...but that does, perhaps, help to explain why some people are so-called "bitter" and some of us are not. I hold nothing at all against any of the F&W and, in fact, I am quite close to many of them. My parents never did horrible things to me, the workers never said things in a very blunt, seemingly (to some here) malicious manner....I never heard anything about any type of abuse....so, I imagine, all of this has affected my experience.
I'm so sorry for those of you who did have these things happen to you and have these stories to tell. For some of you, I can understand how you could hold resentment. That just wasn't my experience. M.
PS...I remember seeing some of the sister workers with their hair down in the morning...and being absolutely astounded at how long it was! You could never have known with it all wrapped up like that....
|
|
|
Post by Kathy Lewis on Jul 14, 2007 9:49:02 GMT -5
Dear WannabewithGod
I love the funny faces on your message! Thanks for the chuckle.
I also believe your story that you NEVER heard or experienced that kind of control or legalism. I know that some workers don't push the rules, they treat people kindly and fairly.
The problem with that is that people are drawn into the group through that kind of treatment and then new workers come to town or the people move to another area and BAM! they don't know what hit them. Plus, it is quite dishonest to draw people into a repressive subculture by lovebombing them and then applying the screws to their minds later.
I hope you don't mind my questions. Where did you grow up without any mention of these "standards of the Kingdom"? Were your parents wealthy? Did your parents have some kind of status that the workers wanted? And what time period did you receive such nonlegalistic treatment? And how much time did you spend in the group? A few years or several generations?
I noticed that your identity said you were from Wisconsin. I had heard that Wisconsin was a pretty repressive state in 2x2 culture. Is that where you were raised?
Thank you for telling us your story because I think that should give other people who were treated unmercifully a little leverage to speak up and say, "Why are some people allowed freedom and we aren't?"
This is another reason why the workers MUST be urged to produce a statement of faith for every professing person or interested visitor to examine.
|
|
sms
Junior Member
Posts: 68
|
Post by sms on Jul 14, 2007 10:56:46 GMT -5
OK - wasn't going to post - but I wanted to second Michelle's view. I was (esentially) B&R 2 x 2. I went until I was 33 years old. Many of those years, I was very obviously not a pillar - my "attendance" was sporadic, my hair was obviously cut, and I wore pants and shorts frequently, not to mention I married an outsider. Now - out of respect for the F and W, I never attended a meeting with my hair down (because then it was blatant I'd cut it! -ironically, an updo is a great way to "hide" short hair) or in pants, or with makeup or jewelry (aside from my wedding/engagement ring). I never once had a "come to Jesus" meeting with any worker. One of my mom's friends would give me those talks on and off through childhood, adolescence, and even to college and marriage. I was far more worried about her seeking me out than any worker - because I knew I wasn't doing something right! From her, I received "counsel" on my choice of professions (professing folks should not be nurses because shift work interferes with meeting attendance), my sports (ironically - later, her children did some school sports), the college I attended (how dare I go so far from home and hang out with so many worldly kids), dating (even ones I dated that were "professing" - admittedly, few - were never quite good enough), and marriage (too many talks on THAT to even summarize!). Because of these talks, I can certainly believe the stories you gals are telling about your hair!! My experiences with workers must have been different. With my mum - only sisters could stay the night. So it was a two-day job to prepare for their visits (cleaning and so forth). I don't ever recall much "alone" time with them, and they often studied in their rooms, so we didn't really see them much. I do remember one older sister worker reading aloud a chapter of "Anne of Green Gables." during her visit - ironic I don't remember any scripture discussed! Brother workers only came for meals once in a while. At convention, workers lived in different quarters. I was actually just really intimidated by workers (sorry Sharon, Nate, Brad, Dennis!) and quite uncomfortable around them until much later in life. I'm sorry so many of you have had such horrible experiences. I certainly did not experience these things myself. To get back on-topic a bit - my hair was always quite thin, straight, and the split ends never had it grow beyond my mid-back, so putting it up was actually a good way to make it look nicer and get it out of my way. It was just a 10 minute deal from shower to bun, so I am dismayed to learn of the discomfort suffered by those of you with thicker, longer hair. I was always amazed when I saw the length and thickness of some of the gals's hair at conventions! I do remember there was a poem that circulated a number of years ago written by an outsider who later "professed" about the buns. The only line I remember is "What are in all those buns, anyway?" - the poem was memorized and passed along during a potluck by a sister worker - I wish I could remember when/where/who. I have since cut my hair, too - I think it looks better shorter (makes it look thicker!) - but it still takes the same amount of time. Go figure. LOL.
|
|
|
Post by sharonhargreaves on Jul 14, 2007 11:30:00 GMT -5
Dear WanttobeiwthGod
Thanks for your post and yes I believe you entirely.
What you speak of is not unlike the small town near here where I grew up. Though I did speak of growing up pains regarding my hair issues it was not until I left home and went in the Work that I found out that many fields and towns in our own province had some very acute variations of 'rules' in severity of rules.
It was a yearly 'adjustment' factor for me as a worker.
I found that the friends in my home meeting were not nearly so strait laced as some areas. the unfortunate thing is a subtle adjustment happens inside oneself and for me I found I too became less sensitvie to these descrepancies - to try to work 'outside' of the stiff rules of others and not be so harsh personally became an objective but that in itself is deceitful - because the truth is it is a system that is off base - all the juggling we do as individuals is only makeshift and superficial.
This less pressurized home meeting upbringing gave me a little scope of ability to compare and reason and feel that the rules were unfair, but again it didn't bring any changes to the system to know that.
When unity and harmony was spoken about at conventions etc it was these issues that came to mind - not something about doctrine.
We in the West always felt more 'liberated' than those in the "East"
In 1962 when Ernest Nelson got an invitation to visit the Eastern USA Coast conventions he was elated and when he came to visit us at Salmon Arm convention preps he was so excited and said he hoped that this was the biginning of the " breaking down of 'barriers' between the East and the West."
It was our discussion as younger ones there that we were an 'edge above' because we had never had to wear black stockings here and we never had to wear hats in meetings and (though - help us - we had to wear them my first three years in the work while speaking in a gospel meeting)
Kneeling to pray in the meetings was another issue - most of us didn't like it cause you could never hear people and for older folks it was often very difficult.
I had no way of knowing at that time that the real barriers were regarding the George Walker versus Jack Carroll struggles.
The extrememes of hats and black stockings were just off shoots of a much deeper division.
Especially as a younger worker the most terrifying time of the year was the workers meeting and the new list coming out - and wondering who would be your older companion - because - and let me assure you - I lie not - there was big difference in the 'severity issue' among the older ones.
And I want to add - please do not think that anything I write comes from a 'bitter spirit' -
I have had my times of anger you may be sure - as the true nature of what I gave 28 years of my life for came into focus -
one would be pretty odd to not have some anger to deal with over lies, hypocrasy and agonies that have been my experience.
I simply want to tell it like it was - for years I thought it was 'just me' who felt like I was going crazy and a mental case -
so if what I share validates others experience and helps them sort out the real from the unreal, the true from the false, then I will be happy to even be thought of as 'bitter'. Ha
It is true we cannot truly love and not ever be angry - because when we love someone we will feel anger toward anything that threatens that loved one.
I have some very dear family and friends still where I was, and it burdens me greatly to witness the absence of joy and assurance in their experience.
The truth is they do not want to know about my life in the work - a deaf ear has been turned toward me in no uncertain terms by those I once considered my friends.
'Scuse me for long ramblings again.
Blessings sharon hargreaves
|
|
Ramona
Junior Member
Posts: 155
|
Post by Ramona on Jul 14, 2007 14:24:33 GMT -5
I love this thread...it brings back so many memories of watching the sister workers manage their hair - not to mention my mom and gramma and etc........ Reading this, I realize that I have only seen my mom with her hair down a few times in my life. How funny is that? I'm almost 50 and my mom is 76. I've asked her numerous times over the years i f I could comb her hair and help her with a new "do". And trust me, she needs one.
I professed the first time in my mid twenties. Growing up, my mom allowed me to do whatever I wanted to do with my hair - including cutting it from time to time. I'll never forget, that I had it in my heart to profess someday - but was very "vain". SO, about 5 months before I professed, and freaking out about having to be a bun head, I secured my future with a short and cute haircut! How convenient for me. As it grew out, I wore my hair in a bun - but failed to ever let my bangs grow out. At convention in 1985 - I was advised that I should let them grow. I never did. Finally, I left the fellowship in 1986.
In 2001 I professed again - still with bangs and an updo. It was nice to notice that many others had progressed to having bangs - so I didn't feel like I stood out so much anymore. Altho, at convention that year and the next, I was given dirty looks for using a culing iron on my bangs.
In regards to makeup - thereagain, I've always used some undereye cover and a thin line of eyeliner, masacara and lip gloss. Always did and still do. Of course, I was very aware that it wasn't appreciated - but I felt better and looked better. Much like having a good bra and well fitting undies!! But sadly enough, there have been people who have treated me differently because of it. What is really sad to me, is that it ever happened that way.
|
|
|
Post by déjà vu on Jul 14, 2007 19:59:22 GMT -5
[img[chopor~1][
|
|
|
Post by recentarriver on Jul 15, 2007 15:11:08 GMT -5
ali said: Recent arriver...a low bun is o.k. and a high one isn't??? WHAT??? The high bun was one visible on top of the head. We used to call these "fountains" among other descriptions. The low bun was smack dab between you and a pillow (should you think about taking an afternoon nap). It wasn't visible from a front view. A profile looked like a wart on the back of the head. BTW there is a good reason to wear a bun!!! Landing pad for flies. If you wore a hair net it would be a fly trap! When we were growing up our buns were sometimes ornate and creative. Anyone remember curl buns? RA
|
|
|
Post by are you kidding on Jul 15, 2007 20:41:14 GMT -5
I attended a gospel meeting this afternoon. One of the sister workers wore her bun on the top of her head, while the other wore hers at the back of her head in a kind of "Olive Oyle" style. Some of the "bunnies" likewise wore a variety of bun styles. Some of the younger women wore their hair up in fashionable & attractive styles...even some with bangs. Some even wore their hair down. I can't believe we are even discussing this.
|
|
|
Post by Hilarious on Jul 15, 2007 21:30:55 GMT -5
So, you attended gospel meeting and saw women with long hair in different hairstyles and can't believe we are discussing this.
Obviously, you are a man and you probably aren't married either.
Your response is a direct attempt to shut women up on this topic.
You must be a worker. Or maybe Bert or Nathan.
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Jul 15, 2007 21:41:38 GMT -5
First I want to say I totally sympathize with the whole baptism thing. When I wanted to be baptized I was given a nice little annoying LOUD lecture about how that baptism meant not wearing pants, red lipstick (I particularly remember the red lipstick comment) or cut my hair. This was done in the middle of the convention grounds in front of some relatives and my future husband. I was basically like WT...? I mean... where's the GOD in that? What about Jesus? And... anyhow... I wasn't doing any of those things at the time. This was basically my first experience into the dark side of this religion. And I let out a whoop of hallelujah when that one left the work. We need Godly workers, not people with wacko ideas and man-made rules to dish out. God help her... may she always be treated the way she treats others. This obsessive focus on the outer man and the control freakishness that some people seem to have about what OTHER PEOPLE wear makes me a little nuts. I mean... if somebody wants to wear the whole bun cult thang, well, okay. But my boundaries are that they don't need to push their freak ideas off on me. I don't want to argue the point with people--I just want to do what God is telling ME to do and leave it at that. So... for the record before I write the rest of this post, I think God cares about our hearts, not about our hair length. One issue I have noticed is that us women don't always talk to each other about hair care. There is some sort of "shut up and wear it up" mentality about the whole subject which IMO doesn't help a bit if someone is unhappy with their hair but wants it long for whatever reason. Long hair (if one chooses to have it) does NOT have to be harder to deal with than short hair. Honest. I do not have long hair for religious reasons at all. I absolutely, positively adore long hair. I always have. If I quit going to meetings tomorrow, I'd still have long hair. It is not a pain for me to keep it... it is my pleasure. It doesn't take me long to fix my hair and, honestly, I get lots--and I mean LOTS of compliments on it. I've even been asked to be a part of a long hair photo book. I do yoga, dance, hiking, biking, etc. It's not exactly keeping me chained down. LOL! So... anyway... the point of this post is that if anyone reading this wants long hair (and I sure as heck am not saying that you should!) to start looking around and talking to other long-haired women and men about hair care. There is a lot of help out there and it doesn't have to be a mess or a burden. I firmly believe that God wants us to feel good in our own skin. peace to all, freespirit
|
|
|
Post by are you kidding on Jul 16, 2007 2:11:52 GMT -5
dEAr Hilarious. Yes I'm male. I am twice married & twice divorced. First wife was professing. During the course of our four year marriage her hair went from being always in a severely tight bun (she developed a bald spot on the top of her head) to actually cutting it to shoulder length and wearing it down in meetings. She even took to wearing a subtle bit of eye make-up. I don't believe that she was ever given a "worker talk" about it.
I don't profess...never have. Couldn't care less how any woman wears her hair.
|
|
|
Post by wanttobewithGod on Jul 16, 2007 2:22:32 GMT -5
freespirit...did I ever tell you I like your posts??? lol M.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2007 4:04:07 GMT -5
my sister said i needed a hair cut, but i was able to pull some strings and i got all of them cut for the same price !!
|
|
|
Post by mrleoread this on Jul 16, 2007 10:51:40 GMT -5
mr.leo-----look at your avatar-----and according to this thread and worker rules your bun is to high. WORKER RULE: Thou shalt not be able to see the bun when looking at a person head-on. So a word of advice-----TAKE THAT BUN DOWN A NOTCH OR TWO!! ;D
|
|
|
Post by mrleo on Jul 16, 2007 11:31:28 GMT -5
lol - from what I've heard, Mary Catherine didn't sweat the small stuff (and c'mon - you can barely see it).
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jul 16, 2007 12:36:19 GMT -5
Your bun is fine, as long as the worker is only about 5'4" it doesn't show...... Pity those gals who have tall workers...... Scott
|
|
|
Post by freespirit on Jul 16, 2007 14:40:56 GMT -5
I've never heard the low bun/high bun thing. But...well... sad to say, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody somewhere didn't have some freak idea like that. If anyone said that to me, I'd think they were whacked in the head. Total nut job. And I'd file 13 the idea ASAP. In my darker moments, I'd probably do whatever I could to make my hair higher or taller or messier just 'cause I could--then I'd smile a lot, be happy and real, real sweet to them. ;D LOL! There is not much more that drives control freaks bananas like satisfied people who refuse to be controlled and who refuse to get caught up in their nonsense. And, besides, I have a perverse sense of humor like that and (God willing) maybe someday they will grow up. Anyhow, it's my observation that if you are part of ANY group, family, organization, workplace, etc that somebody is going to offer some bizarre idea about what YOU should wear or do. This isn't exactly limited to this religion, it's just that in religion God gets all mixed up in their opinion somehow and it's hard sometimes to separate man's ideas from God's ideas. One more reason IMO, that we gotta pray, and pray hard so that we line up with God, not man. I have every belief that God wants us to be joyful and happy and blessed. Interestingly, I know a number of women who wanted long hair when they were children but were not allowed to have it. They grew up with the same feeling of oppression and later in life had to learn to figure out their own mind about it in order to wear it the way they wanted to wear it--and they STILL get dumped on by their families. What the bleep is it with other people trying to control what grown women wear? peace to all, freespirit
|
|
|
Post by recentarriver on Jul 16, 2007 18:01:04 GMT -5
Guess I better clear up a little misunderstanding that I created in my posts about the high bun/low bun.
Being told that my bun was perched too high is something that happened to me MANY years ago while I was a teen.
I did the Olive Oyl look for a while and then moved onto something else.
FreeSpirit, I am glad that your long hair is not a burden to you. Not everyone is so lucky. My hair looked terrible when it was long and I wore it down (tho not in public!!!). RA
|
|
|
Post by ali on Jul 16, 2007 19:44:04 GMT -5
Freespirit, that's ironic that you mention about some kids wanting long hair and not being allowed to have it. My mother cut my hair short so it would be easier for her to look after. She doesn't really care for long hair at all. I grew it to my shoulders as a teenager and eventually got it long and it still is 20 years later...much to my mother's distress. She has always said to me...you know at a certain age , you're going to have to cut that off! Yeah, whatever Mom. Although I love long hair,I realize it's not for everyone. So now my challenge is not to push my long hair fetish on my own little girls and let them do what THEY want! Once when they complained about the pain of tangles I showed them a picture of me as a kid and said we could cut their hair short and there would be no tangles.... I got a unanimous resounding...."NO WAY!".
|
|
|
Post by sharonhargreaves on Jul 16, 2007 19:50:00 GMT -5
hi bun low bun no bun more fun!!
You gals are a hoot and I love all your memories!! Keep em' comin'!
Love ya all,
sharon
|
|
|
Post by bluejay on Jul 16, 2007 23:28:40 GMT -5
As far back as I can remember, "ladies hair" was always a big issue in the "professing world". Some of my Mom's sisters never professed, and I can remember always being aware of their short, dyed hair. <gasp> There didn't seem to be any middle ground to me. Either an aunt was professing and wore their long hair up in a bun, or they were "worldly" and had short colored hair. I have very thick hair, and around the age of 4 or so my Mom was finding it almost impossible to keep it tangle-free. It seems that I threw a temper tantrum whenever she tried to brush it out. As the story goes, one day an non-professing aunt and her sat me down and cut my hair - short. They gave me bangs and overall it was chin length. Apparently my Dad was shocked when he came home from work! I smile now when I see family pictures from that time -- the women folk all have long hair, and there I am in my short-haired glory! I also remember hearing preaching from the platform regarding ladies and their hair - especially at convention. In the 60's the "bee-hive" hair style was in fashion, and the Silverdale convention grounds were almost like a fashion show. All the gals spent hours back-combing their hair & piling it high on top of their heads. The message delivered to them by the workers was that it was a "worldly" hair style, and not one that a decent professing gal should be wearing. So I guess there was a "bun standard" of some sort even back then. Fortunately for me I was still at the ponytail age, (after that short haircut had grown back) and the lectures didn't affect me. But it sure caused a stir in the ladies sleeping quarters! I never did figure out a way to style my hair in an "up-do", even though at times I kinda wanted to - just to appear more grown up. So I wore it down, which of course wasn't acceptable either! At that time the "worldly" style was long straight hair, and any respectable professing girl would put it up. (But not too high! ) No wonder most of us gals with a professing background talk so much about "the hair thing". It was a major focus in our lives, trying to please the workers & yet feel good about our appearance.
|
|
|
Post by sharonhargreaves on Jul 17, 2007 10:59:29 GMT -5
Hi bluejay Oh - I had almost forgotten about the 'beehives' - They really were something else - and yes the back combed hair - what a ladies hair has endured from time to time eh!! Silverdale sort of had a 'reputation' for those big stacks!! Looked like a tremendous lot of work to me!! More than the usual 'bun' --- have a nice day! sharon
|
|
|
Post by juliette on Jul 17, 2007 11:23:57 GMT -5
Speaking of beehives - in the 70's my mom had one of those big elaborate hairdos what required a fake hair-piece underneath to get the volume/height she wanted. If I remember correctly, it was made with hair from a wig all ratted up and stuffed into a hairnet. She would place it on the top of her head and arrange her hair over and around it. I don't remember any worker talks about that one, I think a lot of women her age in our field had something like this going on. I can't imagine keeping that thing on top of my head... talk about narrowing your choice of activities!
|
|
|
Post by Sylvestra on Jul 17, 2007 13:10:07 GMT -5
and to add........ One of the requirements for the young ladies to play the piano at gospel meeting was to have a bun instead of a pony tail or hair down - that was Eldon Tenniswood's requirement. I am also one of those who used a "rat" under my hair. I pinned it down with some BIG bobby pins, and I could even play raquetball without it coming out! Ah, yes! I was quite good a raquetball back in those days - ancient history now! It was really gruesome to really sweat with that "perfect" hairdo LOL! Edy
|
|
|
Post by plainjane on Jul 17, 2007 13:29:08 GMT -5
I think I can address the "high" and "low" on buns.
We had an ex-worker (who never stopped acting like one), living nearby. He would preach to his daughters and his daughter's friends (me) that a good professing girl/woman should wear her bun down low on the back of her neck.
I think the man was caught up in what must had been popular in the 1800's and trying to force it on kids during the 60's---in the name of Christ of course--:-)
The Olive Oil look was waaay dated by the 60's (we liked rats and beehives).....but if this ex-worker and a few brother Workers would have had their way'; we all would have looked like Olive Oil---you remember don't you?---the coil on the back of the neck with a hairnet holding it in place.
I knew two women who went to their graves (1980 and 2006) wearing their hair like Olive Oil. In their minds it would be ungodly to wear a bun up high like us "worldlier" beehive girls of the 60's......
Jane
|
|
dollface
Junior Member
Never dig a hole deeper than you can crawl out of
Posts: 141
|
Post by dollface on Jul 17, 2007 13:52:27 GMT -5
For such a "would you hurry up and get over it" non-topic, there sure are lots of feelings around it.
History belongs to those who write it down. Since the Truth refuses to acknowledge a written history, topics like this are prone to dispute by current members and participants who have not been subjected to this rule.
When my awakening began, I asked several professing women, "If women's hair was so important to Jesus, why do we not read what HE had to say about it?" After all, Jesus covered lots of territory in the Sermon on the Mount. Surely, at least ONE little itty bitty mention of womens' hair and "Thou shalt not wear pants" would have certainly cleared things up.
They only gave me "the Look" and no answer.
No, Jesus did not do this. What are we left with? Paul, a hot headed misogynist, full of opinions to "fill in the blanks" with obscure writings that hint at the proper thing to do.
I have my own stories with the "hair thang." Suddenly, it seems pointless and overwhelming.
ALL girls and women in this group subject to ANYTHING regarding hair, dress, jewelery, make up as a mark of "godliness" is far from Spirit and ALL about MAN/men literally.
Sister workers chastising other women... Brother workers chastising women and girls? (Both of these are within my personal experience.) ANY discussion about wear it up? wear it down; cut or trim; color or gray; are all distractions from the fact anything based on a lie is still a lie.
|
|