|
Post by Get off of TMB on Jan 24, 2020 17:50:35 GMT -5
Willie Hughes - Worker's Convention 1929
With humbleness and thankfulness,
I take my pen tonight.
For distant friends and brethren
Have requested me to write.
Friends to whom news had come
That in Australia this year,
Workers, messengers of Christ,
Would meet from far and near.
Just nineteen hundred years ago within an upper room
A hundred twenty waited for the Holy Ghost to come.
And, in a tent, we met and numbered
Just the same as they,
And prayed for that same Spirit,
To descend on us again.
In memory of a worker true,
Upon the opening day,
We sang the words, "Lord Jesus lead,
O lead me lest I stray."
Remembering too, another who
Was ranked amongst the best.
We sang, "Upon a lonely mount
Obeying God's behest."
A brother then addressed us,
And, we know by God, was moved,
On how to serve as Jesus served
And love as Jesus loved.
I trust I grasped the import -
And that we shalt ne'er forget,
That in that simple truth is stored,
More than men ever yet,
Have heard from school or college,
From learned or great or wise,
Of how to be God's messenger
And run to gain the prize.
We know that Jacob's well is deep,
But simple Truth e'er nerved,
Men's hearts to love as Jesus loved
And serve as Jesus served.
A brother told of how God,
To Moses, His commission gave.
From Egypt's cruel bondage,
To deliver every slave.
God answered all excuses,
Which fearful servant gives.
We listened to a laborer,
fresh from a foreign field,
Speak helpfully and hopefully
Of how that land doth yield.
And how the words of Christ,
To go in His appointed way,
Are practiced and workable,
On foreign shores today.
In other meetings - young and old,
brethren and sisters, too,
Told what the Lord had taught
Them of His work to do.
Of how to preach the Gospel,
How in unity to dwell.
And how to live each passing day
So as to spend it well.
Little was said by anyone
Of sufferings endured,
We scarce remember ought,
Of how the former things allured.
The bride forgets her sorrow
Because a son is born.
We would forget and rise above
Man's hatred and his scorn.
That grand prayer that Jesus prayed,
Our hearts would offer too.
Father "Divine" forgive them,
For they know not what they do.
We all may scatter far away,
Be sundered many a mile,
But as we read, "Come ye
Yourselves apart and rest awhile."
Our hearts and minds will wonder back
On two sweet days this year,
When fellowship and service,
In the Lord was made more dear.
May we be bound as one in Christ,
None seeking here his own,
And so at last our sheaves to bring
And lay before His throne.
Our one grand purpose here,
Shall be, by God approved,
And ever serve as Jesus served
And love as Jesus loved.
|
|
|
Post by Get off of TMB on Jan 24, 2020 17:53:53 GMT -5
Of all the different types of meetings in the fellowship meetings, only a few here have ever been to a worker's meeting.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jan 24, 2020 18:10:21 GMT -5
I don't think this poem is appropriate here.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 24, 2020 18:18:42 GMT -5
I am not sure what year Willie died but he was the big cheese here when I was little.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 19:39:29 GMT -5
Willie Hughes died in 1966, N.Z.
He professed in 1905 in Ireland during the William Irvine times. He came to N.Z. In 1907.Then onto Australia and back in 1941 as overseer. Sadly, he preached an untrue gospel here, in relation to the beginning of ‘the movement’ ( his term). In the following years many professed understanding something that was not fact.
” The foundation and authorship of this movement cannot be attributed to any one man or group of men”. - William Hughes
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 19:42:12 GMT -5
Willie Hughes died in 1966, N.Z. He professed in 1966 in Ireland during the William Irvine times. He came to N.Z. In 1909. Sadly, he preached an untrue gospel here, in relation to the beginning of ‘the movement’ ( his term). In the following years many professed understanding something that was not fact. ” The foundation and authorship of this movement cannot be attributed to any one man or group of men”. - William Hughes 1966 is the wrong date for his professing...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 19:50:01 GMT -5
Thanks Wally, I lost my post before saving & then re wrote quickly. Hope the dates are written correctly now.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jan 24, 2020 21:52:11 GMT -5
Willie Hughes died in 1966, N.Z. He professed in 1905 in Ireland during the William Irvine times. He came to N.Z. In 1907.Then onto Australia and back in 1941 as overseer. Sadly, he preached an untrue gospel here, in relation to the beginning of ‘the movement’ ( his term). In the following years many professed understanding something that was not fact. ” The foundation and authorship of this movement cannot be attributed to any one man or group of men”. - William Hughes I wouldn't consider that statement in itself to be untrue without knowing the context and how he would respond to questions. At least it attributes the fellowship to "a movement". The organisation as we know it evolved over a number of years. When the one man or group of men some would consider founders first started preaching they wouldn't have envisaged anything like what we have today.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 22:16:38 GMT -5
Well Fixit, I believe, that exact premise was passed down the generations. My mother professed in early 1950’s, and clearly understood that there was no beginning founder to this movement;it was from the shores of Galilee. It was something that appealed to her as she went round a few churches. She passed this on to her children, I clearly remember discussions. Her children then professed on this understanding due to preaching done.
Willy Hughes answered those words to a Lutheran pastor in Australia, when asked of the origin of his organisation. Those old guys in Ireland who then sailed to different lands, knew exactly how the movement came about.
I personally dont care, have a problem with, a man started it. Just appreciate honesty.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jan 24, 2020 23:28:10 GMT -5
Well Fixit, I believe, that exact premise was passed down the generations. My mother professed in early 1950’s, and clearly understood that there was no beginning founder to this movement;it was from the shores of Galilee. It was something that appealed to her as she went round a few churches. She passed this on to her children, I clearly remember discussions. Her children then professed on this understanding due to preaching done. Willy Hughes answered those words to a Lutheran pastor in Australia, when asked of the origin of his organisation. Those old guys in Ireland who then sailed to different lands, knew exactly how the movement came about. I personally dont care, have a problem with, a man started it. Just appreciate honesty. FWIW the specific belief that the workers ministry of today is an uninterrupted continuation of what was established by Jesus persisted in attracting converts to the 2x2's into the 21st century. In 2002 a recently converted man told me to my face that the most critical fact that convinced him to profess was learning from the workers this was true. HE categorically and unambiguously assured ME that there were workers in 2 by 2 pairs every year since Jesus day. I have no idea what words the workers used to convince him or anyone else of that, but he was as adamantly convinced of that as Nathan is that Jesus lives in Venus. The more I hear of the endless stream of profoundly revealed and vision narrowing professions of faith in "alternative" facts ranging from ancient history to endless eternity -- the more I think of the religious world as some vast mental institution obsessed with an expanding array of mind addictive promotions by an ever more wealthy host of charlatans.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jan 25, 2020 0:24:08 GMT -5
Well Fixit, I believe, that exact premise was passed down the generations. My mother professed in early 1950’s, and clearly understood that there was no beginning founder to this movement;it was from the shores of Galilee. It was something that appealed to her as she went round a few churches. She passed this on to her children, I clearly remember discussions. Her children then professed on this understanding due to preaching done. Willy Hughes answered those words to a Lutheran pastor in Australia, when asked of the origin of his organisation. Those old guys in Ireland who then sailed to different lands, knew exactly how the movement came about. I personally dont care, have a problem with, a man started it. Just appreciate honesty. I appreciate honesty as well. I assume most of the friends, especially younger generations, now know about the beginnings but I might be wrong. Perhaps it was discussed at Maroota?
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 25, 2020 1:49:52 GMT -5
Well Fixit, I believe, that exact premise was passed down the generations. My mother professed in early 1950’s, and clearly understood that there was no beginning founder to this movement;it was from the shores of Galilee. It was something that appealed to her as she went round a few churches. She passed this on to her children, I clearly remember discussions. Her children then professed on this understanding due to preaching done. Willy Hughes answered those words to a Lutheran pastor in Australia, when asked of the origin of his organisation. Those old guys in Ireland who then sailed to different lands, knew exactly how the movement came about. I personally dont care, have a problem with, a man started it. Just appreciate honesty. FWIW the specific belief that the workers ministry of today is an uninterrupted continuation of what was established by Jesus persisted in attracting converts to the 2x2's into the 21st century. In 2002 a recently converted man told me to my face that the most critical fact that convinced him to profess was learning from the workers this was true. HE categorically and unambiguously assured ME that there were workers in 2 by 2 pairs every year since Jesus day. I have no idea what words the workers used to convince him or anyone else of that, but he was as adamantly convinced of that as Nathan is that Jesus lives in Venus. The more I hear of the endless stream of profoundly revealed and vision narrowing professions of faith in "alternative" facts ranging from ancient history to endless eternity -- the more I think of the religious world as some vast mental institution obsessed with an expanding array of mind addictive promotions by an ever more wealthy host of charlatans.I figured this out about five years ago Bob. Knowing what I know now I find it difficult to accept that I was once a keen supporter of religious views. Why was I taken in, why was I beguiled? I now know the answer to that too. It is the belief and a desire to have an eternal life which spawns these ideas.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jan 25, 2020 3:35:00 GMT -5
FWIW the specific belief that the workers ministry of today is an uninterrupted continuation of what was established by Jesus persisted in attracting converts to the 2x2's into the 21st century. In 2002 a recently converted man told me to my face that the most critical fact that convinced him to profess was learning from the workers this was true. HE categorically and unambiguously assured ME that there were workers in 2 by 2 pairs every year since Jesus day. I have no idea what words the workers used to convince him or anyone else of that, but he was as adamantly convinced of that as Nathan is that Jesus lives in Venus. The more I hear of the endless stream of profoundly revealed and vision narrowing professions of faith in "alternative" facts ranging from ancient history to endless eternity -- the more I think of the religious world as some vast mental institution obsessed with an expanding array of mind addictive promotions by an ever more wealthy host of charlatans.I figured this out about five years ago Bob. Knowing what I know now I find it difficult to accept that I was once a keen supporter of religious views. Why was I taken in, why was I beguiled? I now know the answer to that too. It is the belief and a desire to have an eternal life which spawns these ideas.Who was it referred to it as the opioid of the masses?
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 25, 2020 3:46:51 GMT -5
I figured this out about five years ago Bob. Knowing what I know now I find it difficult to accept that I was once a keen supporter of religious views. Why was I taken in, why was I beguiled? I now know the answer to that too. It is the belief and a desire to have an eternal life which spawns these ideas.Who was it referred to it as the opioid of the masses? Karl Marx. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. It is often misquoted or it's full meaning not really understood. From Wiki... Marx was making a structural-functionalist argument about religion, and particularly about organized religion.[3][4] Marx believed that religion had certain practical functions in society that were similar to the function of opium in a sick or injured person: it reduced people's immediate suffering and provided them with pleasant illusions which gave them the strength to carry on. Marx also saw religion as harmful, as it prevents people from seeing the class structure and oppression around them, thus religion can prevent the necessary revolution. He wrote this in 1843.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jan 25, 2020 3:51:52 GMT -5
Well Fixit, I believe, that exact premise was passed down the generations. My mother professed in early 1950’s, and clearly understood that there was no beginning founder to this movement;it was from the shores of Galilee. It was something that appealed to her as she went round a few churches. She passed this on to her children, I clearly remember discussions. Her children then professed on this understanding due to preaching done. Willy Hughes answered those words to a Lutheran pastor in Australia, when asked of the origin of his organisation. Those old guys in Ireland who then sailed to different lands, knew exactly how the movement came about. I personally dont care, have a problem with, a man started it. Just appreciate honesty. I appreciate honesty as well. I assume most of the friends, especially younger generations, now know about the beginnings but I might be wrong. Perhaps it was discussed at Maroota? I was at a convention in the early 2000's where a worker referred to the "origins" in quite an obtuse manner. I saw through it and understood perfectly well what he was referring to. But I am certain that a person who didn't know what he was referring to would never have gotten the message. I'd really like to know if any worker anywhere since 1930 has in a meeting of any kind explained in plain language the history involving the William Irvine era. One of the reasons they can't do that is because the next question that will beg an answer is how they went about to wipe that era completely out of mention by numerous devious methods to stoke their insinuation that those events never took place. The utter gall of them to adopt the word "truth" for the community now. And BTW, if anyone thinks this is bashing the 2x2's -- it's not, and I don't bash the whole community. Plainly put -- the liars involved in this deception were/are liars, and their every justification for it is the epitome of spiritual abuse on the friends and workers they have deceived.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 25, 2020 4:05:44 GMT -5
I appreciate honesty as well. I assume most of the friends, especially younger generations, now know about the beginnings but I might be wrong. Perhaps it was discussed at Maroota? I was at a convention in the early 2000's where a worker referred to the "origins" in quite an obtuse manner. I saw through it and understood perfectly well what he was referring to. But I am certain that a person who didn't know what he was referring to would never have gotten the message. I'd really like to know if any worker anywhere since 1930 has in a meeting of any kind explained in plain language the history involving the William Irvine era. One of the reasons they can't do that is because the next question that will beg an answer is how they went about to wipe that era completely out of mention by numerous devious methods to stoke their insinuation that those events never took place. The utter gall of them to adopt the word "truth" for the community now. And BTW, if anyone thinks this is bashing the 2x2's -- it's not, and I don't bash the whole community. Plainly put -- the liars involved in this deception were/are liars, and their every justification for it is the epitome of spiritual abuse on the friends and workers they have deceived. I find it very interesting that you bring this cover up on a thread about Willy Hughes. Willy Hughes went on to become very good at covering up. While he was head worker, he, Willie Phyn and Walter Frank, being three senior workers conspired to remove from NZ a worker who was using rent boys at a public toilet. The police were onto this but Willie and co were one step ahead of them. This action shows that he would put the reputation of the "TRUTH" ahead of justice. I would be interested to know if this young man went on to offend against boys elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Jan 25, 2020 4:17:52 GMT -5
Well Fixit, I believe, that exact premise was passed down the generations. My mother professed in early 1950’s, and clearly understood that there was no beginning founder to this movement;it was from the shores of Galilee. It was something that appealed to her as she went round a few churches. She passed this on to her children, I clearly remember discussions. Her children then professed on this understanding due to preaching done. Willy Hughes answered those words to a Lutheran pastor in Australia, when asked of the origin of his organisation. Those old guys in Ireland who then sailed to different lands, knew exactly how the movement came about. I personally dont care, have a problem with, a man started it. Just appreciate honesty. Exactly! I heard this sort of thing many times and as a result absolutely believed it myself. Back then there were few ways that the claims could be invalidated. Over my early professing years I was involved in a number of discussions with people from other Christian denominations and stood firm on the indoctrination that I had received about the beginnings. Some from other denominations attempted to tell me how the whole thing started, but no, the workers were correct. I even approached one or two workers about it and in one way or another these other worldly religious people were wrong. Prevarication I later discovered was not just applied to 'the beginnings!'
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Jan 25, 2020 4:23:21 GMT -5
I was at a convention in the early 2000's where a worker referred to the "origins" in quite an obtuse manner. I saw through it and understood perfectly well what he was referring to. But I am certain that a person who didn't know what he was referring to would never have gotten the message. I'd really like to know if any worker anywhere since 1930 has in a meeting of any kind explained in plain language the history involving the William Irvine era. One of the reasons they can't do that is because the next question that will beg an answer is how they went about to wipe that era completely out of mention by numerous devious methods to stoke their insinuation that those events never took place. The utter gall of them to adopt the word "truth" for the community now. And BTW, if anyone thinks this is bashing the 2x2's -- it's not, and I don't bash the whole community. Plainly put -- the liars involved in this deception were/are liars, and their every justification for it is the epitome of spiritual abuse on the friends and workers they have deceived. I find it very interesting that you bring this cover up on a thread about Willy Hughes. Willy Hughes went on to become very good at covering up. While he was head worker, he, Willie Phyn and Walter Frank, being three senior workers conspired to remove from NZ a worker who was using rent boys at a public toilet. The police were onto this but Willie and co were one step ahead of them. This action shows that he would put the reputation of the "TRUTH" ahead of justice. I would be interested to know if this young man went on to offend against boys elsewhere. What? Are you suggesting the police were wanting to use these rent boys as well?
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Jan 25, 2020 4:28:14 GMT -5
Basically what has determined the use of evasive and secret tactics, obfuscation and discrediting questions, etc., is simply the need to protect the ministry. The ministry weilds great psychological power and control. Without this it would fold as it requires the support of the lay brethren to survive. Anything at all which has potential to undermine the power of the ministry is a threat to the movement itself.
That is why it is all about the ministry!
That is why workers are right even where they are wrong.
(Me)
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 25, 2020 4:37:27 GMT -5
I find it very interesting that you bring this cover up on a thread about Willy Hughes. Willy Hughes went on to become very good at covering up. While he was head worker, he, Willie Phyn and Walter Frank, being three senior workers conspired to remove from NZ a worker who was using rent boys at a public toilet. The police were onto this but Willie and co were one step ahead of them. This action shows that he would put the reputation of the "TRUTH" ahead of justice. I would be interested to know if this young man went on to offend against boys elsewhere. What? Are you suggesting the police were wanting to use these rent boys as well? I did not suggest that but in any organisation, whether it be priests or police there will be bad apples who look for opportunities to commit crime.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 25, 2020 4:39:14 GMT -5
Basically what has determined the use of evasive and secret tactics, obfuscation and discrediting questions, etc., is simply the need to protect the ministry. The ministry weilds great psychological power and control. Without this it would fold as it requires the support of the lay brethren to survive. Anything at all which has potential to undermine the power of the ministry is a threat to the movement itself. That is why it is all about the ministry! That is why workers are right even where they are wrong. (Me) In light of what you have said above, Ben. Nothing will change in OZ or elsewhere. What we saw was a change of deck chairs on the Titanic.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Jan 25, 2020 4:47:20 GMT -5
What? Are you suggesting the police were wanting to use these rent boys as well? I did not suggest that but in any organisation, whether it be priests or police there will be bad apples who look for opportunities to commit crime. I'm wondering if my tongue in cheek remark was angled too high?
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Jan 25, 2020 4:49:36 GMT -5
Basically what has determined the use of evasive and secret tactics, obfuscation and discrediting questions, etc., is simply the need to protect the ministry. The ministry weilds great psychological power and control. Without this it would fold as it requires the support of the lay brethren to survive. Anything at all which has potential to undermine the power of the ministry is a threat to the movement itself. That is why it is all about the ministry! That is why workers are right even where they are wrong. (Me) In light of what you have said above, Ben. Nothing will change in OZ or elsewhere. What we saw was a change of deck chairs on the Titanic. Damage limitation will always be the primary concern I'm afraid. It's a survival thing.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 25, 2020 11:52:01 GMT -5
I did not suggest that but in any organisation, whether it be priests or police there will be bad apples who look for opportunities to commit crime. I'm wondering if my tongue in cheek remark was angled too high? Do you mean users of rent boys have been known to put the tongue in the cheek?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2020 13:36:25 GMT -5
I appreciate honesty as well. I assume most of the friends, especially younger generations, now know about the beginnings but I might be wrong. Perhaps it was discussed at Maroota? I was at a convention in the early 2000's where a worker referred to the "origins" in quite an obtuse manner. I saw through it and understood perfectly well what he was referring to. But I am certain that a person who didn't know what he was referring to would never have gotten the message. I'd really like to know if any worker anywhere since 1930 has in a meeting of any kind explained in plain language the history involving the William Irvine era. One of the reasons they can't do that is because the next question that will beg an answer is how they went about to wipe that era completely out of mention by numerous devious methods to stoke their insinuation that those events never took place. The utter gall of them to adopt the word "truth" for the community now. And BTW, if anyone thinks this is bashing the 2x2's -- it's not, and I don't bash the whole community. Plainly put -- the liars involved in this deception were/are liars, and their every justification for it is the epitome of spiritual abuse on the friends and workers they have deceived. Right! Their way of explaining the "origins" definitely was couched in such a way that for those who DIDN'T know anything about the origin; -it just went right over their heads!
And it was obvious that it was done for purposely to still keep them in the dark! That only increased the pain that so many suffered when they finally found out the truth concerning the so-called "THUTH!"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 14:49:17 GMT -5
Well Fixit, I believe, that exact premise was passed down the generations. My mother professed in early 1950’s, and clearly understood that there was no beginning founder to this movement;it was from the shores of Galilee. It was something that appealed to her as she went round a few churches. She passed this on to her children, I clearly remember discussions. Her children then professed on this understanding due to preaching done. Willy Hughes answered those words to a Lutheran pastor in Australia, when asked of the origin of his organisation. Those old guys in Ireland who then sailed to different lands, knew exactly how the movement came about. I personally dont care, have a problem with, a man started it. Just appreciate honesty. Exactly! I heard this sort of thing many times and as a result absolutely believed it myself. Back then there were few ways that the claims could be invalidated. Over my early professing years I was involved in a number of discussions with people from other Christian denominations and stood firm on the indoctrination that I had received about the beginnings. Some from other denominations attempted to tell me how the whole thing started, but no, the workers were correct. I even approached one or two workers about it and in one way or another these other worldly religious people were wrong. Prevarication I later discovered was not just applied to 'the beginnings!' ‘Prevarication’....that is a good word.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 15:21:33 GMT -5
I just think it would be liberating for all concerned to address it honestly, and then move on. They are entitled to have a Christian Faith & fellowship, however their movement started & I respect that. That’s how I see it anyway.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jan 25, 2020 16:05:08 GMT -5
Well Fixit, I believe, that exact premise was passed down the generations. My mother professed in early 1950’s, and clearly understood that there was no beginning founder to this movement;it was from the shores of Galilee. It was something that appealed to her as she went round a few churches. She passed this on to her children, I clearly remember discussions. Her children then professed on this understanding due to preaching done. Willy Hughes answered those words to a Lutheran pastor in Australia, when asked of the origin of his organisation. Those old guys in Ireland who then sailed to different lands, knew exactly how the movement came about. I personally dont care, have a problem with, a man started it. Just appreciate honesty. FWIW the specific belief that the workers ministry of today is an uninterrupted continuation of what was established by Jesus persisted in attracting converts to the 2x2's into the 21st century. In 2002 a recently converted man told me to my face that the most critical fact that convinced him to profess was learning from the workers this was true. HE categorically and unambiguously assured ME that there were workers in 2 by 2 pairs every year since Jesus day. I have no idea what words the workers used to convince him or anyone else of that, but he was as adamantly convinced of that as Nathan is that Jesus lives in Venus. The more I hear of the endless stream of profoundly revealed and vision narrowing professions of faith in "alternative" facts ranging from ancient history to endless eternity -- the more I think of the religious world as some vast mental institution obsessed with an expanding array of mind addictive promotions by an ever more wealthy host of charlatans. My father always quoted the workers by saying the reason why he knew that his church was the only right church was because it had gone back to the shores of Galilee and started by Jesus. I know when I quit professing I still believed it was the only way to salvation exactly for that reason. I considered all other churches to be false and unsaved. That was also one reason why I questioned so much because most of my relatives that I loved belonged to these 'false churches' and it really upset me. I have to wonder how many professed because of that claim. No wonder they lost some when it became known that William Irvine started it all. I don't care that it started with Irvine, but like Olea I also value honesty.
|
|