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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 22, 2020 3:45:34 GMT -5
"Mmmm so exactly where is Ron Wyatt in the pictures of the "chariot wheels" gratu " You can watch the linked movies yourself - do your own research for a change - huh. AND i have already played with you too long - as humorous as the exercise has been. Well maybe you can tell me where in the video it shows Ron Wyatt with the "chariot wheels" @gratu ... after watching the video it appears that one of us needs glasses or a hearing aid !!! Plenty of "reconstructed photos" that "could have been chariot wheels" maybe you missed that !!!
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Post by mountain on Jan 22, 2020 4:13:48 GMT -5
Due to what I believe in, I would love to accept what Grats has produced and the resulting claims to be actual fact. In reality though, they are at best 'circumstantial evidence,' i.e. they are not proof in themself, but must rely on other facts and circumstances, which, when considered together and support one another, point to the only reasonable conclusion before the truth of the matter can be established. On their own they may be something of significance, or they may be nothing. Don't discount them, but there again don't rely on them in themself as being proof enough to establish anything other than their presence. WOW - congrads mounts you got the whole point by page 3. The vids (all of them) "prove" nothing, but can boost weak faith in the word of God with visible evidence that is pretty well presented. As I said twice on this thread already, the material does not even touch on a salvation issue and was - and still is - an attempt to help any 2x2/visitor who comes on this board with weak faith in God's word. Nothing more and certainly nothing less. Grats, I do not have a dog in this fight. These vids are interesting but as you say, they are not proof (in themself). Perhaps in time their importance may grow as other facts become known? As always keep an open mind. Anyone who makes claims these days will suffer criticism and attempts to debunk. It's par for the course.Tell me one instance where this does not apply? If you are attempting to make a case here, then produce other supporting evidence or we will wait to see if anything comes to the fore over time. On the other hand this is a presentation for information only.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 22, 2020 6:26:27 GMT -5
Now that the TMB demolition crew have led more than two pages in their attempt to destroy Ron Wyatt, I'll bring this thread right back on its original one vid topic, that vid NOT Ron Wyatt's vid: EXODUS REVEALED! Hard Evidence in Red Sea of Israel's Escape From Egypt www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM7njJuarrgSo sorry @gratu ... It seems I was looking at this video. But I still haven't found any footage of Ron Wyatt diving with the "chariot wheels", considering he was suppose to have found them in 1978 why wait 10 years to reveal photos of them? Plenty of footage of people diving and reconstructed photos of what they assume are chariot wheels (photoshop). So maybe you can show us the original photos from 78 or 88 ?
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Post by rational on Jan 22, 2020 9:19:27 GMT -5
Pardon me as I don't think your post worth a reply after seeing those pictures of chariot wheels, pillars with Hebrew written on them, the full name of Nuweibaa Beach etc. etc. But I'm sure another of the TMB demolition crew just chose to expose him/her self in front of any 2x2/visitors, so thanks on their behalf. Exposing the truth to those who have been conned has always been a risky business. As the bible states -Zebediah 3:14 - God helps those who help themselves. @matt10 was just offering a bit of help to help those who needed a jump start in helping themselves until god jumps in to help them. Interesting you claim to have seen the pictures and accept them as proof. On the other hand members of Wyatt's own church have published a well documented book exposing Wyatt - " He was and is adored only by a band of deluded, though devoted, cultic disciples." Read all about the fake news of Ron Wyatt.
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Post by rational on Jan 22, 2020 10:16:45 GMT -5
Oh so because there are "pictures of chariots wheels" that proves they must be from the Egyptian Chariots, therefore that is "hard eviedence" ....seriously @gratu have you ever heard of photoshop !!! Do your brains fall out every time your mouth opens? - or just every so often? Photoshop -- in Ron Wyatt's time???? As usual, you have been typing before engaging your brain. The following might shed some light on your statement ( Ron's WWW site.): Chariot Wheels in the Red Sea
(first published in newsletter # 3 in 1993)
In our last newsletter, we examined the route taken by Moses and the great multitude as they fled Egypt. We will now examine the evidences which tell us exactly who were the Egyptian royalties involved and the approximate date the Exodus occurred. This is a subject that gets quite involved and we will only be able to present a bare frame of reference in this publication. Bear with us, as we will attempt to present a large amount of information in a short space.
THE CHARIOT WHEELS We will begin with the chariot wheels that Ron and the boys found in the Gulf of Aqaba. In 1978, on their first dive at the site, they found these chariot remains. Like Noah’s Ark, these were not in perfect condition and required careful examination to see exactly what they were. They were covered in coral, which made it difficult to see them clearly, but it appears that the coral was the agent the Lord used to preserve them.
They found numerous wheels- some were still on their axles, and some were off. They found chariot cabs without the wheels, also: EXO 14:24 …in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, 25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily:…
So far, this coincided with the Biblical account. They found several 6-spoked wheels, as well as an 8-spoked wheel. And finally, in 1988, Ron found the 4-spoked gold chariot wheel, which looks almost perfect. The reason this one was so well preserved is that coral does not grow on gold. The wood inside the gold “veneer” was deteriorated, which made it very fragile and for that reason, he has not attempted to retrieve it from the water. (emphasis added) And then there is this: Adobe Photoshop is an image editor developed and published by Adobe Inc. for Windows and macOS. The first version of photoshop was released in 1987 by Thomas and John Knoll. So, in answer to your question from above: Do your brains fall out every time your mouth opens? - or just every so often? Photoshop -- in Ron Wyatt's time????Yes, Photoshop, as well as other image editing programs (Micrografx in 1986), were available on Wyatt's time and, surprise surprise, photoshop was available just before the discovery of a well preserved wheel which, of course, is only recorded in a photograph. But it is interesting to note that the following is contained within that photo: CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62) Why would a photo be marked as having been modified by a photo editing program? @gratu, you owe Roselyn T an apology for your uninformed and crude comment. Did you ever think that there were other photo-editing programs that existed prior to Photoshop? The question is why Wyatt called them egyptian chariot wheels and claimed to have them examined by experts(although there is no proof of the examination or the wheels themselves). It does seem odd to me that the gold color shows up in hidden pixels of the image. I guess Wyatt was hiding the gold to protect it. Photo forensics has come a long way. Far enough to show many of Ron's images to be frauds.
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Post by nathan on Jan 22, 2020 11:48:57 GMT -5
Jesus/God would NOT have used Moses Exodus historical event with His death on Calvary teaching, If they were made up stories by men.
In John 3:14 As Moses lifted up the serpent on the pole so the Son of man be lifted up that everyone believes on him shall have receive ETERNAL life as the children of Israel had been bitten by the firery serpents because of sins.
Jesus/God would NOT have use Moses Exoodus event, Noah world wide flood and Jonah resurrection events in comparing his own death on Calvary, and resurrection IF THEY WERE myths and untrue.
The Jews in Jesus days KNEW these historical events by hearts.
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Post by rational on Jan 22, 2020 12:22:29 GMT -5
1988...photoshop didn't appear until 1990.... You need to do your homework. The original code for photoshop was released in 1986. But there were a number of other programs for image modification available earlier. Of course, people have been modifying photos as long as there have been images to modify. Remember the Cottingley Fairies!
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Post by rational on Jan 22, 2020 12:27:23 GMT -5
All I can say to that is, first off there was no fight as far as I am concerned, whether the fight had dogs in it or not. And it shows me the wisdom of the move I was forced into making of presenting my intended offerings of the same type of Bible supporting material on fore-reserved spaces on the Reliability of the Bible thread, where my presentation of Biblical Archaeology post contains about 80 similar vids aimed to help the same people - if I had not reserved that space ahead of time, just think if this one vid has dogs fighting in it by page one, what would have been the result of the 80 vids open to the same dog-fighting. And that single post on that thread is just one post out of something like six posts all on page one without getting dragged off topic once, without one fight, and meeting its help-goal very nicely -- while all are just as free to grab onto any of it and fight up a storm between themselves over it - BEHIND it - where I don't have to see if there are any dogs in their fights. The size of the pile of manure does not make it more appealing. Imagine how helpful it would be to 'your reader(s)' if you have posted factual information instead of a pile based mostly on creationists myths.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 22, 2020 14:33:48 GMT -5
1988...photoshop didn't appear until 1990.... You need to do your homework. The original code for photoshop was released in 1986. But there were a number of other programs for image modification available earlier. Of course, people have been modifying photos as long as there have been images to modify. Remember the Cottingley Fairies! Thanks for reminding me about the "Cottingley Fairies!"
I had forgotten about them!
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Post by snow on Jan 22, 2020 14:39:47 GMT -5
My question is why does it matter if you can prove the bible historically? It's all based on faith which is what you have when no evidence is required. Believe what you like, but when you try to prove stuff showing pictures of stuff that have been proven not to be what you are saying they are, it only makes everything you say less credible. You'd be far better off just saying you believe and don't need evidence, which is the definition of faith.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 14:58:01 GMT -5
1988...photoshop didn't appear until 1990.... You need to do your homework. The original code for photoshop was released in 1986. But there were a number of other programs for image modification available earlier. Of course, people have been modifying photos as long as there have been images to modify. Remember the Cottingley Fairies! sorry to burst your bubble photoshop celebrated its 20th anv. in 2010...that puts it at 1990 for its release to the public...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 14:58:46 GMT -5
My question is why does it matter if you can prove the bible historically? It's all based on faith which is what you have when no evidence is required. Believe what you like, but when you try to prove stuff showing pictures of stuff that have been proven not to be what you are saying they are, it only makes everything you say less credible. You'd be far better off just saying you believe and don't need evidence, which is the definition of faith. then stop asking for proof....
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 22, 2020 15:05:33 GMT -5
My question is why does it matter if you can prove the bible historically? It's all based on faith which is what you have when no evidence is required. Believe what you like, but when you try to prove stuff showing pictures of stuff that have been proven not to be what you are saying they are, it only makes everything you say less credible. You'd be far better off just saying you believe and don't need evidence, which is the definition of faith. then stop asking for proof.... Wally! You are the ones asking for proof!
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Post by rational on Jan 22, 2020 15:08:51 GMT -5
Now that the TMB demolition crew have led more than two pages in their attempt to destroy Ron Wyatt, I'll bring this thread right back on its original one vid topic, that vid NOT Ron Wyatt's vid: EXODUS REVEALED! Hard Evidence in Red Sea of Israel's Escape From Egypt www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM7njJuargFor a non-wyatt video there are a lot of Wyatt photos....
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 22, 2020 15:14:30 GMT -5
[quote author=" nathan " source="/post /876339/thread" timestamp="1579711737"]Jesus/God would NOT have use the Moses Exodus historical event with His death on. Calvary If they were made up stories by men. In John 3:14 As Moses lifted up the serpent on the pole so the Son of man be lifted up that everyone believes on him shall have receive ETERNAL life as the children of Israel had been bitten by the firery serpents because of sins. Jesus/God would NOT have use Moses Exoodus event, Noah world wide flood and Jonah resurrection events in comparing his own death on Calvary, and resurrection IF THEY WERE myths and untrue. The Jews in Jesus days KNEW these historical events by hearts. [/quote] They may have been able to repeat the stories of supposed historical events but that doesn't mean that those "stories" themselves were factually accurate!
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Post by nathan on Jan 22, 2020 16:25:46 GMT -5
My question is why does it matter if you can prove the bible historically? It's all based on faith which is what you have when no evidence is required. Believe what you like, but when you try to prove stuff showing pictures of stuff that have been proven not to be what you are saying they are, it only makes everything you say less credible. You'd be far better off just saying you believe and don't need evidence, which is the definition of faith. then stop asking for proof.... ** I showed the people on here in the past, the pictures and video of the artifacts of the children of Israel junks/trash they left behind during their 40 yrs in the deserts. These athiests are not going to change their belief or believe in the existence of God. Most of them will die as athiests.
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Post by rational on Jan 22, 2020 16:38:31 GMT -5
Now that the TMB demolition crew have led more than two pages in their attempt to destroy Ron Wyatt, I'll bring this thread right back on its original one vid topic, that vid NOT Ron Wyatt's vid: EXODUS REVEALED! Hard Evidence in Red Sea of Israel's Escape From Egypt www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM7njJuarrgEdit - For 2x2/visitors who might read past page one of this thread and be discouraged by the demolition crew's wholly negative aims to try to destroy the intended encouragement offered to them within the opening post. Trying to encourage people with lies does not seem ethical. No one is speaking poorly of Ron Wyatt. Just the lies he sells to the gullible. It is the general disbelief in any theories that are not supported by data.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 17:13:52 GMT -5
then stop asking for proof.... Wally! You are the ones asking for proof!i've never heard a christian ask for physical proof of anything biblical however i have heard christians being asked to provide proof though....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 17:17:26 GMT -5
Now that the TMB demolition crew have led more than two pages in their attempt to destroy Ron Wyatt, I'll bring this thread right back on its original one vid topic, that vid NOT Ron Wyatt's vid: EXODUS REVEALED! Hard Evidence in Red Sea of Israel's Escape From Egypt www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM7njJuarrgEdit - For 2x2/visitors who might read past page one of this thread and be discouraged by the demolition crew's wholly negative aims to try to destroy the intended encouragement offered to them within the opening post. What is clear from post number 2 onward is a demonstration of the use of a conspiracy theory perpetrated by the TMB demolition team (mainly the TMB atheist crew) against someone (a believer) not involved in the production of the video in the opening post. And THAT is no surprise since God told believers what to expect from unbelievers – and God instructs believers to “rejoice” when we are evilly spoken of for His name's sake – it is not the believers who the unbelievers are really aiming their fanciful shots at. Of course the 2x2/visitor will know that the unbelievers will often voice that they do not believe conspiracy theories - they just propose em against believers.
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 22, 2020 18:09:23 GMT -5
My brothers and sisters: these atheists amongst us are also our brothers and sisters. Let us treat them as such, it may reveal to them the power of our God Yahu’shuah and His love for us all. I am indeed on my death bed and I beg this of you all.
So, I have nothing else to bring, alone except for Katie, there are none who care for me except any here who might proclaim themselves a brother or sister, and for whom I pray accordingly.
With love for all,
Dennis Alan Jacobsen
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Post by rational on Jan 22, 2020 18:11:35 GMT -5
Now that the TMB demolition crew have led more than two pages in their attempt to destroy Ron Wyatt, I'll bring this thread right back on its original one vid topic, that vid NOT Ron Wyatt's vid: EXODUS REVEALED! Hard Evidence in Red Sea of Israel's Escape From Egypt www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM7njJuarrgEdit - For 2x2/visitors who might read past page one of this thread and be discouraged by the demolition crew's wholly negative aims to try to destroy the intended encouragement offered to them within the opening post. Trying to encourage people with lies does not seem ethical. No one is speaking poorly of Ron Wyatt. Just the lies he sells to the gullible. It is the general disbelief in any theories that are not supported by data.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 22, 2020 18:19:10 GMT -5
Now that the TMB demolition crew have led more than two pages in their attempt to destroy Ron Wyatt, I'll bring this thread right back on its original one vid topic, that vid NOT Ron Wyatt's vid: EXODUS REVEALED! Hard Evidence in Red Sea of Israel's Escape From Egypt www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM7njJuarrgEdit - For 2x2/visitors who might read past page one of this thread and be discouraged by the demolition crew's wholly negative aims to try to destroy the intended encouragement offered to them within the opening post. What is clear from post number 2 onward is a demonstration of the use of a conspiracy theory perpetrated by the TMB demolition team (mainly the TMB atheist crew) against someone (a believer) not involved in the production of the video in the opening post. And THAT is no surprise since God told believers what to expect from unbelievers – and God instructs believers to “rejoice” when we are evilly spoken of for His name's sake – it is not the believers who the unbelievers are really aiming their fanciful shots at. Of course the 2x2/visitor will know that the unbelievers will often voice that they do not believe conspiracy theories - they just propose em against believers. @gratu how many of these "visitors" that you think you post for respond to your posts ? Are they waiting every day for your next post "of wisdom" ?
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 22, 2020 18:20:02 GMT -5
Agreed, Rational, without faith (belief) in God, not one has any proof. Yet, some of us, by our (faith\belief) in God, ourselves, prove His Love and Grace for all, despite all the disbelief of all about us. If you can point to any without that proof in our lives, that is not the fault of those who have it within them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 18:30:49 GMT -5
You know, Gratu, I used to think they worked so hard to debunk believers point of view to win prozolytes. But now it’s come to me they’re working so hard to continue convincing themselves that the Bible is a myth. Actually, STR, -speaking for myself, -I am well aware that some of you, like yourself and gratu, will never be convinced of what we have learned. I am not really trying to convince those of you who are in that category.
But our posts are being listened to by many others and I hope I can be of help to them just as many others helped me to "disentangle" myself from the web of beliefs that had held me captive so for so many yearsThis is so very true. The idea that non believers come here to try and persuade the most fanatical believers that the bible isn’t true, or that their God isn’t really there, is way off the mark. The people who can benefit most from the wisdom of non believers here are those weak in faith, those who are discontented with the 2x2 church and those who struggle with worshipping a God who, according to the bible anyway, is an absolute monster fixated with sending famines and slaughtering innocent women and children. It is those doubters who are capable of seeing through their religious delusion and recognising what is really true when they see it with their own eyes. Indeed when believers post such ridiculous claims as those contained in the video, it actually helps non believers demonstrate the folly of religious belief and helps persuade the doubters that their doubts are indeed valid. You can be certain that when believers post videos suggesting that a piece of metal found on the bed of the Red Sea is from the bronze coating of the wheel of a 3 thousand year old Egyptian chariot this is more likely to persuade the doubter that there really is no evidence that the bible is true than it is to persuade the non believer that there is. Which really does raise the question of what is point of posting it from the believers point of view? I have no doubt that the non believers on this board have been much more influential in persuading believers to cast off their religious conditioning and become non believers than the believers here have been in persuading non believers to embrace their imaginary Christian God and become believers. This is unsurprising as truth is always more powerful than religion. The contributions of non believers here are therefore not in vain. It reminds me of the parable of the ninety and nine. If a non believer can help even one person to disentangle themselves from the web of false religion and discover the real truth then the non believers time spent here will have been worthwhile. Matt10
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 22, 2020 18:45:42 GMT -5
Jesus/God would NOT have use the Moses Exodus historical event with His death on. Calvary If they were made up stories by men. In John 3:14 As Moses lifted up the serpent on the pole so the Son of man be lifted up that everyone believes on him shall have receive ETERNAL life as the children of Israel had been bitten by the firery serpents because of sins. Jesus/God would NOT have use Moses Exoodus event, Noah world wide flood and Jonah resurrection events in comparing his own death on Calvary, and resurrection IF THEY WERE myths and untrue. The Jews in Jesus days KNEW these historical events by hearts. Another discovery were ancient red marble pillars put there in Solomon’s time. Solomon had a shipping firm north of the crossing but had erected these red marble pillars. They’d been engraved by Solomon. Some words were legible but there’s been ages of wind and sand abrasive ness upon the one pillar on the Egypt side. It looks like if any attempt to remove it would result in shattered marble as it’s so badly pick marked in one side. The Arabs had cut the other one down, supposedly have stored it somewhere. But the butt of it is still there exactly due East of the Egyptian sides one. The altar of the golden calf has been fenced off by the Arabs but hieroglyphs are apparent showing the Egyptian bull. Mount of Moses so-called by the Bedouins who lived near it, is the Mount Sinai of Exodus. It’s top still blackened from God’s fiery presence. There are two many natural occurring proofs to say this is a fake produced documentary. Nevertheless it’s still encouraging to know there are people who care enough to try and fund things in the Bible. At least they’re thinking there is truth in the Bible of the Gid of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 22, 2020 18:49:09 GMT -5
Actually, STR, -speaking for myself, -I am well aware that some of you, like yourself and gratu, will never be convinced of what we have learned. I am not really trying to convince those of you who are in that category.
But our posts are being listened to by many others and I hope I can be of help to them just as many others helped me to "disentangle" myself from the web of beliefs that had held me captive so for so many yearsThis is so very true. The idea that non believers come here to try and persuade the most fanatical believers that the bible isn’t true, or that their God isn’t really there, is way off the mark. The people who can benefit most from the wisdom of non believers here are those weak in faith, those who are discontented with the 2x2 church and those who struggle with worshipping a God who, according to the bible anyway, is an absolute monster fixated with sending famines and slaughtering innocent women and children. It is those doubters who are capable of seeing through their religious delusion and recognising what is really true when they see it with their own eyes. Indeed when believers post such ridiculous claims as those contained in the video, it actually helps non believers demonstrate the folly of religious belief and helps persuade the doubters that their doubts are indeed valid. You can be certain that when believers post videos suggesting that a piece of metal found on the bed of the Red Sea is from the bronze coating of the wheel of a 3 thousand year old Egyptian chariot this is more likely to persuade the doubter that there really is no evidence that the bible is true than it is to persuade the non believer that there is. Which really does raise the question of what is point of posting it from the believers point of view? I have no doubt that the non believers on this board have been much more influential in persuading believers to cast off their religious conditioning and become non believers than the believers here have been in persuading non believers to embrace their imaginary Christian God and become believers. The contributions of non believers here are therefore not in vain. Truth is always more powerful than religion. It reminds me of the parable of the ninety and nine. If a non believer can help even one person to disentangle themselves from the web of false religion and discover the real truth then the non believers time spent here will have been worthwhile. Matt10 Mark Lowry, a comedian and gospel singer, said once that he didn’t have enough faith ever to be an atheist! Bible doesn’t call it faith. Other people have said that atheist are proclaiming themselves omnipotent to have such wisdom.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 0:10:46 GMT -5
Rational - “So far, this coincided with the Biblical account. They found several 6-spoked wheels, as well as an 8-spoked wheel. And finally, in 1988, Ron found the 4-spoked gold chariot wheel, which looks almost perfect. The reason this one was so well preserved is that coral does not grow on gold. The wood inside the gold “veneer” was deteriorated, which made it very fragile and for that reason, he has not attempted to retrieve it from the water. (emphasis added)” And that is just another fake 'spoke' in rational's already worn out conspiracy theory. The fact is that the video of the opening post states very clearly that even “retrieving” any coral from the location is NOT ALLOWED – period. In fact I think it has been illegal to "retrieve" even coral from anywhere in the Gulf of Aqaba since about the 1960s. Also, the name “Ron Wyatt” was introduced to this thread by that great TMB demolition team member, Nathan – on page one – undoubtedly to the glee of the rest of the TMB demolition crew who had long ago accused Ron Wyatt of conspiracy on this board. And the thread was immediately steered OFF the topic (Nathan's greatest contribution to the Demolition team historically) Now the atheist rational and his cronies had a (dead) believer to accuse of conspiracy and off they went to fulfill that goal. All the while they ignored the sample videos then posted showing a very humble man of means – an employee of a hospital – who praised God for every archaeological discovery he made - - wow, I mean WOW - what 'great' food for an atheist conspiracy theory – imagine THAT a believer stating PUBLICLY and unabashedly that God pointed him to the locations of each discovery – that's just gotta be 'evidence' of a 'conspiracy'. So, lets see some more TMB demolition team at work making the TOPIC video into a 'conspiracy theory:' EXODUS REVEALED! Hard Evidence in Red Sea of Israel's Escape From Egypt www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM7njJuarrg
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Post by rational on Jan 23, 2020 11:37:23 GMT -5
Mount of Moses so-called by the Bedouins who lived near it, is the Mount Sinai of Exodus. It’s top still blackened from God’s fiery presence. Any chance it is the exposed basalt that formed the core of the mountain? Do you see the problem? The mountain top is simply exposed dark rock. Calling it blackened from god's fiery presence means nothing except someone decided to say that the color of the rock was due to heat. Remember, Moses was on the mountain as well and probably didn't have an asbestos suit. And since when does heat darken rock? In a town not too far from where I lived they cut/shaped stone with intense heat and the stones didn't darken. You create the 'natural occurring proofs' and then use them to 'prove' your claim.
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