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Post by snow on Jan 6, 2020 13:35:32 GMT -5
It would be extortion if you had to prove your worthiness ahead of time. The thief on the cross didnt. Which just proves what you've been saying about works not being important for salvation. The thief on the cross is a prime example and so are those on death row that are serial killers that have done horrific things, but they repented at the last breath so therefore they get into heaven and all of the rest of us that just don't see anything to believe in get sent to hell. Sorry a bit off the subject, but I just wanted to say that I agree with you that works doesn't save, belief does.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 6, 2020 13:40:12 GMT -5
The thief on the cross didnt. Which just proves what you've been saying about works not being important for salvation. The thief on the cross is a prime example and so are those on death row that are serial killers that have done horrific things, but they repented at the last breath so therefore they get into heaven and all of the rest of us that just don't see anything to believe in get sent to hell. Sorry a bit off the subject, but I just wanted to say that I agree with you that works doesn't save, belief does. Absolutely! Repentance and faith which is a gift from God! As I’ve tried to tell, this kind of faith is not like the faith humans have in another human or faith that some program or plan is going to work. There is an assurance that is the backbone of this gift from God that’s called faith.
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Post by snow on Jan 6, 2020 13:58:22 GMT -5
Which just proves what you've been saying about works not being important for salvation. The thief on the cross is a prime example and so are those on death row that are serial killers that have done horrific things, but they repented at the last breath so therefore they get into heaven and all of the rest of us that just don't see anything to believe in get sent to hell. Sorry a bit off the subject, but I just wanted to say that I agree with you that works doesn't save, belief does. Absolutely! Repentance and faith which is a gift from God! As I’ve tried to tell, this kind of faith is not like the faith humans have in another human or faith that some program or plan is going to work. There is an assurance that is the backbone of this gift from God that’s called faith. While I don't agree that the whole concept is right, I do agree it's what the bible says and your argument is the right one. I believe Chuck was also saying it wasn't works that got one saved.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 6, 2020 15:22:38 GMT -5
It would be extortion if you had to prove your worthiness ahead of time. The thief on the cross didnt. Lucky him!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 16:56:36 GMT -5
well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens....if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation? That's not what God is saying. He's saying I have rules, if you don't do what I say, I will punish you forever. In your scenario someone telling you to get into a lifeboat is a benign request with no threat of punishment at the end of it. Making a bunch of rules, not showing up yet expecting belief in him, then promising to punish you if you don't believe in what you can't see, after he's given you free will and knows from the start if you will be going to heaven or hell, is extortion. It's a scam a set up of the highest degree. And, since there is no God, it's humans that have started this set up/scam so that they can have control over people. Threats of eternal punishment works for some people to just obey, just in case. how is telling someone to get in the life boat or die and benign request?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 6, 2020 17:02:27 GMT -5
That's not what God is saying. He's saying I have rules, if you don't do what I say, I will punish you forever. In your scenario someone telling you to get into a lifeboat is a benign request with no threat of punishment at the end of it. Making a bunch of rules, not showing up yet expecting belief in him, then promising to punish you if you don't believe in what you can't see, after he's given you free will and knows from the start if you will be going to heaven or hell, is extortion. It's a scam a set up of the highest degree. And, since there is no God, it's humans that have started this set up/scam so that they can have control over people. Threats of eternal punishment works for some people to just obey, just in case. how is telling someone to get in the life boat or die and benign request? It’s not extortion. It’s your choice.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 6, 2020 17:03:24 GMT -5
The thief on the cross didnt. Lucky him! Is that a sarcastic remark?
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Post by snow on Jan 6, 2020 17:12:47 GMT -5
That's not what God is saying. He's saying I have rules, if you don't do what I say, I will punish you forever. In your scenario someone telling you to get into a lifeboat is a benign request with no threat of punishment at the end of it. Making a bunch of rules, not showing up yet expecting belief in him, then promising to punish you if you don't believe in what you can't see, after he's given you free will and knows from the start if you will be going to heaven or hell, is extortion. It's a scam a set up of the highest degree. And, since there is no God, it's humans that have started this set up/scam so that they can have control over people. Threats of eternal punishment works for some people to just obey, just in case. how is telling someone to get in the life boat or die and benign request? Because the person giving them the chance to take the life boat isn't the person causing the dilemma in the first place. The ship is the problem. The person advising getting on a different floating device is not responsible for the need for a new floating device.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 17:19:50 GMT -5
how is telling someone to get in the life boat or die and benign request? Because the person giving them the chance to take the life boat isn't the person causing the dilemma in the first place. The ship is the problem. The person advising getting on a different floating device is not responsible for the need for a new floating device. Jesus is the lifeboat and apparently to some is causing the sinking....
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Post by snow on Jan 6, 2020 17:23:14 GMT -5
Because the person giving them the chance to take the life boat isn't the person causing the dilemma in the first place. The ship is the problem. The person advising getting on a different floating device is not responsible for the need for a new floating device. Jesus is the lifeboat and apparently to some is causing the sinking.... If you are the cause of the problem in the first place wouldn't it be a non choice if you want to survive? In the case of your analogy, the one offering you the lifeboat is not involved with the sinking unlike God is involved in the threat of hell if you don't do what he wants.
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Post by sauerkraut on Jan 6, 2020 17:47:24 GMT -5
Happy New Decade to All I finally made a definitive break from the meetings over two decades ago after many years fighting an inward battle between conformity and skepticism. Stepping out and over to another belief, whether one which involved worshipping the same Christian god or another god, was never an option. My extrication from the meetings was due to an inability to accept the biblical messages as the "Truth". Other christian beliefs rely on a belief in the same book, and the fundamental extraordinary claims and once it is impossible to believe these claims, retaining one's faith is also impossible. Other faiths also rely on a belief in extraordinary, unevidenced claims, so crossing over to believe in another form of god is therefore impossible. It's 2020, and with a tap of our fingers, we can source answers to questions and we can determine the difference between evidenced-based knowledge and that which has no foundation other than having emanated from imaginations. What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? Love for our master.
it depends if the workers are your master
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Post by speak on Jan 6, 2020 18:08:17 GMT -5
What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? Love for our master.
it depends if the workers are your master why would the workers be my master?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 6, 2020 18:35:21 GMT -5
Is that a sarcastic remark? Yes -- aimed at modern Christians fundamentalism.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 6, 2020 18:36:26 GMT -5
it depends if the workers are your master why would the workers be my master? To flatter their sense of importance.
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Post by joanna on Jan 6, 2020 19:02:33 GMT -5
snow . sharingtheriches . Making an informed choice involves acknowledging individual autonomy by presenting evidenced-based facts and respecting the individual's right to make decisions and take actions for their own and societies' benefit. The process of religious indoctrination is inconsistent with making an informed choice. The common thread which links those of us on this forum is that we were reared in the meetings. The 2x2 process exemplifies how religious indoctrination works- take a young child and ' teach them what to think, not how to think' This indoctrination process is common to all faith-based beliefs. And all of you who have left the 2x2's and retained your Christian faith are validating 2x2 indoctrination given you are still under its' effect.Threats of eternal damnation by an individual (Jesus) who is marketed as being benign and caring for his children are an extremely effective method to manipulate the vulnerable and gullible. I disagree that faith-based belief is a choice- the methods and manipulation applied to convert people are inconsistent with the genuine approach used to promote freedom of choice. To state it plainly, indoctrination means to heavily influence someone into believing a particular set of ideas, whether they are political, cultural, or religious. Most often, this is done when the individual is particularly young, when he or she lack the ability to reasonably conclude whether or not a statement is true. Those who’ve experienced heavy indoctrination may be unaware of competing theories, alternate hypotheses, or even whether the ideas hold any merit at all; those ideas are simply believed and held dear for an unknown period of time.
I’d never advocate for one to indoctrinate their child with strong atheist ideas either; I think it’s very important that we teach children how to think, not what to think. Childhood Indoctrination: Religion's Greatest Weapon
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Post by joanna on Jan 6, 2020 19:15:00 GMT -5
Dennis J Dennis, i have heard 2x2 workers use the very same approach in similar discussions as you have applied above. Their (and your) inability to answer questions means they have to resort to the ad hominem; in the mind of the religious, the questioner becomes the one with the issues - you have stated that 'i cannot see'. If only an awareness that the inability to provide honest answers was the catalyst to self-reflection starting with "Why am avoiding these questions?". Yes, i admit to liking to debate and had i not had that tendency, i would still be in the 2x2 grp.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 19:27:06 GMT -5
Jesus is the lifeboat and apparently to some is causing the sinking.... If you are the cause of the problem in the first place wouldn't it be a non choice if you want to survive? In the case of your analogy, the one offering you the lifeboat is not involved with the sinking unlike God is involved in the threat of hell if you don't do what he wants. gotta go back to the sinking ship again, when its sinking you don't take time to yell at whats sinking it you just get in the offered lifeboat and move on....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 6, 2020 19:42:17 GMT -5
Is that a sarcastic remark? Yes -- aimed at modern Christians fundamentalism. Whatever that is! Maybe aimed at Christians in general?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 6, 2020 19:53:37 GMT -5
Dennis J Dennis, i have heard 2x2 workers use the very same approach in similar discussions as you have applied above. Their (and your) inability to answer questions means they have to resort to the ad hominem; in the mind of the religious, the questioner becomes the one with the issues - you have stated that 'i cannot see'. If only an awareness that the inability to provide honest answers was the catalyst to self-reflection starting with "Why am avoiding these questions?". Yes, i admit to liking to debate and had i not had that tendency, i would still be in the 2x2 grp. Pardon my butting in, Joanne; but you’re expecting answers from the wrong party. I know this from personal experience. Humans can’t answer you like you wanted answers because those answers have to come from God. You’ve become disenchanted because humans have failed to answer your questions. You’ve been expecting them from the wrong direction. For example, the young father who’d come to Jesus to heal his young daughter, Jesus said something about , “Oh ye of little faith.” What was there that Jesus detected about this young father? He apparently knew that this young father wasn’t really believing that Jesus as a man could heal his daughter. But when Jesus said that, the father grew aware of the gap in his faith so he cried out in desperation, “My Lord! Help thou mine unbelief.” You may not see where that brings the answers you want, but I can tell you it truly does. When you quit relying on human strengths and self then you can fully plea for help with your faith and then answers begin to come. It doesn’t hurt for us to plea that plea often because there’s just old human nature that slips in there thinking we can rely on self or other humans. It won’t work that way.
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Post by nathan on Jan 6, 2020 20:02:30 GMT -5
Because the person giving them the chance to take the life boat isn't the person causing the dilemma in the first place. The ship is the problem. The person advising getting on a different floating device is not responsible for the need for a new floating device. Jesus is the lifeboat and apparently to some is causing the sinking.... Some one caused the boat to sink wasn't Jesus but Adam and Eve HORRIBLE sin in the Garden of Eden. They decided for their fate and the fate of all their fallen human children. Christ gave them the boat to enjoy and provide life Jacket to save them after they went overboard! Some of their fallen children refuse to accept the Christ/life jacket to put on, they believe it doesn't work or can save them before the rescue team arrives.
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Post by joanna on Jan 6, 2020 20:13:22 GMT -5
sharingtheriches . You are not butting in STR Why would you expect god to answer questions when he is absent in times of trauma and disaster? The prayers of the children who are victims of CSA within religious organisations are unanswered and they typically remain the victims of abuse for many years. How do you explain the absence of god in these dire situations? Why would your god bother to answer the relatively trivial questions of yours or mine given people are pleading to him for help and they do not receive any?
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Post by benar on Jan 6, 2020 20:15:54 GMT -5
If only an awareness that the inability to provide honest answers was the catalyst to self-reflection starting with "Why am avoiding these questions?". This is worth repeating.
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Post by benar on Jan 6, 2020 20:16:38 GMT -5
Dennis J Dennis, i have heard 2x2 workers use the very same approach in similar discussions as you have applied above. Their (and your) inability to answer questions means they have to resort to the ad hominem; in the mind of the religious, the questioner becomes the one with the issues - you have stated that 'i cannot see'. If only an awareness that the inability to provide honest answers was the catalyst to self-reflection starting with "Why am avoiding these questions?". Yes, i admit to liking to debate and had i not had that tendency, i would still be in the 2x2 grp. Pardon my butting in, Joanne; but you’re expecting answers from the wrong party. I know this from personal experience. Humans can’t answer you like you wanted answers because those answers have to come from God. You’ve become disenchanted because humans have failed to answer your questions. You’ve been expecting them from the wrong direction. For example, the young father who’d come to Jesus to heal his young daughter, Jesus said something about , “Oh ye of little faith.” What was there that Jesus detected about this young father? He apparently knew that this young father wasn’t really believing that Jesus as a man could heal his daughter. But when Jesus said that, the father grew aware of the gap in his faith so he cried out in desperation, “My Lord! Help thou mine unbelief.” You may not see where that brings the answers you want, but I can tell you it truly does. When you quit relying on human strengths and self then you can fully plea for help with your faith and then answers begin to come. It doesn’t hurt for us to plea that plea often because there’s just old human nature that slips in there thinking we can rely on self or other humans. It won’t work that way. What would your response be if I told you the reason you're not a Muslim is because you don't have enough faith in Allah?
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Post by benar on Jan 6, 2020 20:17:45 GMT -5
how is telling someone to get in the life boat or die and benign request? It’s not extortion. It’s your choice. Correct - the lifeboat example is a choice, not extortion, thus the false analogy to Christian doctrine.
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Post by benar on Jan 6, 2020 20:24:46 GMT -5
Logical Fallacy Alert! Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle. I can hold a gun to your head and ask politely for your wallet. I'm not forcing you to give it to me. The choice to live or die is yours... Your probably right, God is an exception to general principles, since everything is His, God is bound by nothing and doesn't negotiate, it simply is what He says it is. How did you determine this? If the perpetrator was a father and the victim was his child and the wallet was full of money that was previously given to the child, would it be moral to tell the child to give it back or be punished for eternity? I think you have that backwards. Believers are obsessed with death and 'where they will end up'. They're more concerned with the 'next life' than this one. Atheists acknowledge they only have this one shot, so are more likely to be making the most of it. As an atheist, I do not fear death. Sure, I fear pain etc, but not death itself, for I will simply be no longer, like a flame of an extinguished candle.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 6, 2020 20:33:42 GMT -5
Dennis J Dennis, i have heard 2x2 workers use the very same approach in similar discussions as you have applied above. Their (and your) inability to answer questions means they have to resort to the ad hominem; in the mind of the religious, the questioner becomes the one with the issues - you have stated that 'i cannot see'. If only an awareness that the inability to provide honest answers was the catalyst to self-reflection starting with "Why am avoiding these questions?". Yes, i admit to liking to debate and had i not had that tendency, i would still be in the 2x2 grp. Pardon my butting in, Joanne; but you’re expecting answers from the wrong party. I know this from personal experience. Humans can’t answer you like you wanted answers because those answers have to come from God. You’ve become disenchanted because humans have failed to answer your questions. You’ve been expecting them from the wrong direction. For example, the young father who’d come to Jesus to heal his young daughter, Jesus said something about , “Oh ye of little faith.” What was there that Jesus detected about this young father? He apparently knew that this young father wasn’t really believing that Jesus as a man could heal his daughter. But when Jesus said that, the father grew aware of the gap in his faith so he cried out in desperation, “My Lord! Help thou mine unbelief.” You may not see where that brings the answers you want, but I can tell you it truly does. When you quit relying on human strengths and self then you can fully plea for help with your faith and then answers begin to come. It doesn’t hurt for us to plea that plea often because there’s just old human nature that slips in there thinking we can rely on self or other hum-ans. It won’t work that way. I believe you have that all backwards, STR.
You’re the one who wants only answers that you have already determined "come from God."
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 6, 2020 21:12:15 GMT -5
sharingtheriches . You are not butting in STR Why would you expect god to answer questions when he is absent in times of trauma and disaster? The prayers of the children who are victims of CSA within religious organisations are unanswered and they typically remain the victims of abuse for many years. How do you explain the absence of god in these dire situations? Why would your god bother to answer the relatively trivial questions of yours or mine given people are pleading to him for help and they do not receive any? Do people not plea for God’s help when they’re in dire distress? What about the good times? Do people think to thank God for their daily blessings? Why is it that people only give thought to God when the punch is on? Is that really establishing a trustworthy relationship with God to only think of him when things are going downhill?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 6, 2020 21:16:20 GMT -5
Pardon my butting in, Joanne; but you’re expecting answers from the wrong party. I know this from personal experience. Humans can’t answer you like you wanted answers because those answers have to come from God. You’ve become disenchanted because humans have failed to answer your questions. You’ve been expecting them from the wrong direction. For example, the young father who’d come to Jesus to heal his young daughter, Jesus said something about , “Oh ye of little faith.” What was there that Jesus detected about this young father? He apparently knew that this young father wasn’t really believing that Jesus as a man could heal his daughter. But when Jesus said that, the father grew aware of the gap in his faith so he cried out in desperation, “My Lord! Help thou mine unbelief.” You may not see where that brings the answers you want, but I can tell you it truly does. When you quit relying on human strengths and self then you can fully plea for help with your faith and then answers begin to come. It doesn’t hurt for us to plea that plea often because there’s just old human nature that slips in there thinking we can rely on self or other hum-ans. It won’t work that way. I believe you have that all backwards, STR.
You’re the one who wants only answers that you have already determined "come from God."
I did say “from my experience “. But I only say that because it worked for the father in the Bible and it worked for me. My experience has taught me that many humans just aren’t able to give the answers I need. They aren’t in my shoes and they have little idea where I’m wanting to go with my questions. I think it’s apparent that it’s that way in regards to anything spirit related. But then again one has to be born again in the spirit to receive help from even God in answers.
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