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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 3:41:24 GMT -5
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). Hmm, tough choice, eternal life or the wrath of God... [/div]
[/quote] Not really a choice, is it? If the person offering you salvation is the one threatening the torture, it’s not salvation, it’s extortion.Would you accept this sort of ultimatum from anyone else, Dan?[/quote] humans are not gods so the comparison doesn't work...
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Post by snow on Jan 5, 2020 13:46:13 GMT -5
@wally that's something that I can't understand. When you take something we clearly would not accept from humans and say it's okay if it's a god doesn't make sense to me. Gods should be held to a higher standard than a human wouldn't you agree? So why is it okay for a god to extort you if it's not okay for a human to extort you? Really don't understand this at all. If something is wrong, it's just wrong in all ways no matter who does it in my world.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 16:42:57 GMT -5
@wally that's something that I can't understand. When you take something we clearly would not accept from humans and say it's okay if it's a god doesn't make sense to me. Gods should be held to a higher standard than a human wouldn't you agree? So why is it okay for a god to extort you if it's not okay for a human to extort you? Really don't understand this at all. If something is wrong, it's just wrong in all ways no matter who does it in my world. well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens....if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 5, 2020 17:28:39 GMT -5
@wally that's something that I can't understand. When you take something we clearly would not accept from humans and say it's okay if it's a god doesn't make sense to me. Gods should be held to a higher standard than a human wouldn't you agree? So why is it okay for a god to extort you if it's not okay for a human to extort you? Really don't understand this at all. If something is wrong, it's just wrong in all ways no matter who does it in my world. well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens... if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation? True, -to the extent that it is a just another human being telling you that the ship is sinking and you need to get into another vessels that floats!
However, this is a GOD you are talking about! NOT another human being like yourself!
The same GOD that you believe made YOU! That GOD who made you, -the GOD who set you up on this particular little planet, -which beautiful but no always beneficial to your well being.
That perfect GOD, but didn't make YOU perfect and when YOU fail, -that GOD sends down his son to die in order to SAVE you from the mess HE made to start with!
And you damn well better believe that & be grateful for that and submit to HIM otherwise he is going to send you to HELL!
Now THAT is extortion!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 5, 2020 17:54:07 GMT -5
speak . How does the God you believe in guide you Speak ? (i do appreciate you answering my questions). In all the time i was in the 2x2 grp I Never Once heard the voice of god. Can you prove to me that you have heard his voice Speak? This question applies to all other believers whether meeting folk or not. Why is it that the knowledge of the Christian god requires human intervention? Infinite numbers of people across the history of the world do not know the God of Abraham because they have never had a Christian bible nor been preached to about its' content. Doesn't that make all Christians suspicious about the existence of this god? Why is he non-existent until people hear other people talk of him or they read of him? And doesn't this absence of god fit with the lack of his intervention in times of disaster? I was a child who tried to do the right thing, i prayed, obeyed my parents, attended meetings and missions, did not have 'worldly friends" except during school hours; and i recall desperately asking for god to speak with me. Yet i never once heard any external voice. I heard reiterations of biblical intonations and the words of preachers inside my own head and i tried to believe that was god speaking to me. But i could not Honestly maintain that deception. How can you be certain that the voice you hear is not sourced from within your own mind? Communication occurs on many different technical levels and these have surpassed previous generations predictions yet still there is no determination on the methodology used by faith-based believers in their alleged communication with god. For something to be real it has to be replicated and proven yet this is not the case with communication with god. Joanna; Honestly when I was a lot younger, I too worried I didn’t have the Holy Spirit. I understood from the Bible that is how God's children are spoken to in these days since Jesus had come and died and was risen. I worried that I did not know HOW to tell if he was with me. It wasn’t something very well explained in the 2x2 church. I finally did find out that there’s a difference in the Holy Spirit guarding one and the “indwelling” of the Holy Spirit. I came to realize that God had had the Holy Spirit guarding me a many years. But then I finally “felt” his presence. He’s a Spirit so of course one is not going to see him. But you can actually feel his presence. That presence is serene and calm. It isn’t an overpowering presence but a presence you can feel like all will be well as long as he is there. Then when you are resting in that serenity of his presence it’s like he speaks to you. There are new things come into your mind you’ve never thought of before. Of course this always pertains to what God has to open up to an individual. It’s kind of strange because sometimes the thoughts or realizations seem to stop and you’re aware there’s more but you get the feeling the Spirit is holding back because he wants you to accommodate what you’ve gotten. And it’s proven true to me, that after a while he always comes back and gives more understanding about the issue/subject later on. It always happens when I’m very quiet and serene within myself. My thoughts aren’t running like they normally are. Normally my mind runs quickly and I suppose I learned that when I was a surgical nurse always being three steps ahead of the surgeon, I think this is about as well as I can explain it.
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 5, 2020 19:18:33 GMT -5
Difference between 2&2 weak faith and mine? Well, friend, I still have my belief in God, while others may not.
This, I perceive, indicates one difference. Those who once believed 2&2 preacher only teachings, have a couple (or more) choices regarding their God. Since we all can see they exist, there should be none disputing these facts.”
Choice #1: Turn their back on God entirely. Deny His very existence of/in any form.
Choice #2: Determine what is to be held from earlier beliefs, and what must be continued still, along with “why?”
By very definition, to my mind, one is weak while the other is not. My belief exists even after what I perceive has been attacked in my own mind from every possible direction. Why? Where does it come from, why does it even persist? I know what I believe true about these questions, and am convinced each MUST find the answers for themselves and their own soul’s best interest.
Now, please excuse more, beginning to lose focus.
DAJ
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 19:55:15 GMT -5
well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens... if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation? True, -to the extent that it is a just another human being telling you that the ship is sinking and you need to get into another vessels that floats!
However, this is a GOD you are talking about! NOT another human being like yourself!
The same GOD that you believe made YOU! That GOD who made you, -the GOD who set you up on this particular little planet, -which beautiful but no always beneficial to your well being.
That perfect GOD, but didn't make YOU perfect and when YOU fail, -that GOD sends down his son to die in order to SAVE you from the mess HE made to start with!
And you damn well better believe that & be grateful for that and submit to HIM otherwise he is going to send you to HELL!
Now THAT is extortion!
you totally missed my point....
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 5, 2020 20:11:36 GMT -5
@wally that's something that I can't understand. When you take something we clearly would not accept from humans and say it's okay if it's a god doesn't make sense to me. Gods should be held to a higher standard than a human wouldn't you agree? So why is it okay for a god to extort you if it's not okay for a human to extort you? Really don't understand this at all. If something is wrong, it's just wrong in all ways no matter who does it in my world. well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens....if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation? It would be extortion if you had to prove your worthiness ahead of time.
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Post by benar on Jan 5, 2020 20:25:21 GMT -5
Not really a choice, is it? If the person offering you salvation is the one threatening the torture, it’s not salvation, it’s extortion.Would you accept this sort of ultimatum from anyone else, Dan? humans are not gods so the comparison doesn't work... Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle (without justifying the special exception). (Wikipedia)@wally that's something that I can't understand. When you take something we clearly would not accept from humans and say it's okay if it's a god doesn't make sense to me. Gods should be held to a higher standard than a human wouldn't you agree? So why is it okay for a god to extort you if it's not okay for a human to extort you? Really don't understand this at all. If something is wrong, it's just wrong in all ways no matter who does it in my world. well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens....if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation? A false analogy is a faulty instance of the argument from analogy. (Wikipedia)The sinking ship argument is a false analogy because the one threatening the harm (the sinking of the ship) is not the one offering the salvation (your friendly deckhand).
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 5, 2020 21:53:26 GMT -5
True, -to the extent that it is a just another human being telling you that the ship is sinking and you need to get into another vessels that floats!
However, this is a GOD you are talking about! NOT another human being like yourself!
The same GOD that you believe made YOU! That GOD who made you, -the GOD who set you up on this particular little planet, -which beautiful but no always beneficial to your well being.
That perfect GOD, but didn't make YOU perfect and when YOU fail, -that GOD sends down his son to die in order to SAVE you from the mess HE made to start with!
And you damn well better believe that & be grateful for that and submit to HIM otherwise he is going to send you to HELL!
Now THAT is extortion!
you totally missed my point.... Ah, -then please enlighten me! What WAS your point!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 22:06:40 GMT -5
humans are not gods so the comparison doesn't work... Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle (without justifying the special exception). (Wikipedia)well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens....if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation? A false analogy is a faulty instance of the argument from analogy. (Wikipedia)The sinking ship argument is a false analogy because the one threatening the harm (the sinking of the ship) is not the one offering the salvation (your friendly deckhand). you also missed the point of my comment....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 22:08:01 GMT -5
well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens....if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation? It would be extortion if you had to prove your worthiness ahead of time. Christ did that for us....just get in the lifeboat bob....
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 5, 2020 22:29:44 GMT -5
It would be extortion if you had to prove your worthiness ahead of time. Christ did that for us....just get in the lifeboat bob.... But no "saving" would have been necessary if GOD, -Christ's supposed Father, -hadn't skewed up the first time!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 22:38:16 GMT -5
Christ did that for us....just get in the lifeboat bob.... But no "saving" would have been necessary if GOD, -Christ's supposed Father, -hadn't skewed up the first time! i think we all know God said he regretted making mankind, but the point is there is a way out...just get in the lifeboat dmmichgood...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 5, 2020 22:49:19 GMT -5
But no "saving" would have been necessary if GOD, -Christ's supposed Father, -hadn't skewed up the first time! i think we all know God said he regretted making mankind, but the point is there is a way out...just get in the lifeboat dmmichgood... I would say that it is mankind who should regret making a GOD in their image! I think in the long run HE has caused them more sorrow than joy.
HE turned on them & has become their enslaver.
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Post by Dan on Jan 5, 2020 22:58:33 GMT -5
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). Hmm, tough choice, eternal life or the wrath of God... Not really a choice, is it? If the person offering you salvation is the one threatening the torture, it’s not salvation, it’s extortion.Would you accept this sort of ultimatum from anyone else, Dan?
God is not just anyone else, the bottom line for me is that Christ is Life and if we refuse to partake of that Tree of Life, we perish. Extortion is trying to get something through force or threat, God does not force anything and He doesn't threaten us, the choice is ours, we freely choose to live or die. We have nothing that God needs to extort, He said "All souls are mine" (Ezekiel 18:4), so how does God extort something which is already rightfully His?
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Post by benar on Jan 6, 2020 0:10:15 GMT -5
Not really a choice, is it? If the person offering you salvation is the one threatening the torture, it’s not salvation, it’s extortion.Would you accept this sort of ultimatum from anyone else, Dan?
God is not just anyone else, the bottom line for me is that Christ is Life and if we refuse to partake of that Tree of Life, we perish. Extortion is trying to get something through force or threat, God does not force anything and He doesn't threaten us, the choice is ours, we freely choose to live or die. We have nothing that God needs to extort, He said "All souls are mine" (Ezekiel 18:4), so how does God extort something which is already rightfully His? Logical Fallacy Alert! Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle. I can hold a gun to your head and ask politely for your wallet. I'm not forcing you to give it to me. The choice to live or die is yours...
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Post by benar on Jan 6, 2020 0:10:58 GMT -5
Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle (without justifying the special exception). (Wikipedia)A false analogy is a faulty instance of the argument from analogy. (Wikipedia)The sinking ship argument is a false analogy because the one threatening the harm (the sinking of the ship) is not the one offering the salvation (your friendly deckhand). you also missed the point of my comment.... Please enlighten an intellectually challenged bloke like me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 0:21:38 GMT -5
you also missed the point of my comment.... Please enlighten an intellectually challenged bloke like me. life = ship sinking = satan lifeboat = Jesus
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Post by joanna on Jan 6, 2020 0:27:08 GMT -5
Dennis J . Am i right in understanding that you see your belief as independent of, and able to withstand external challenges and obstacles? And you contrast this to the 2x2 belief as you consider it an extension of a physical impact and one that does not emanate from that which you consider spiritual? If this is a correct interpretation then it is very interesting. If a 2x2, like Speak, claims they have a relationship with their God, and this began after hearing the 2x2 workers preach, i can see little or no difference between your faith and theirs. What would be the indications that someone has a 'strong' faith compared to the individual whose faith is weak? Would this impact the way they treat others or their own psychological wellbeing? How would the weak versus strong faith manifest? As far as i have observed, in any group, whether Christian, atheist, muslim or other faith, there seems to be a range of character-types. Some are trustworthy whilst others are less-so; some are friendly others introverted; some compassionate, others are unkind; there are the materialistic and pretentious and the not-so much; those with a good work ethic and the more lazy-types; the gossipers and the ones with integrity & about the worst of all - those who commit CSA and those who do not. Faith beliefs just don't seem to protect or improve the human character, their personality and behaviour, and the only way you really know if someone believes is if they tell you, or you observe their attendance at church / bible study grp etc & that they have a pre-occupation with a scriptural text.
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 6, 2020 0:55:11 GMT -5
Grinning, you sure like to debate, don’t you?
When you stated “...I cannot see...” as far as I am concerned you hit the very nail on its head, for that is obviously true, simply cannot see. Thus, for me it is a bit like getting into a battle of wits with someone unarmed.
If God, as Creator, cannot convince you, how do you expect me to even try? I have enough to do to merely find answers for each doubt of mine, and yes, there have been plenty. Still. I believe and it has not one whit to do with 2&2ism.
Peace, my friend, peace to you if you cannot find any in my words, just quit trying!
My love and care for all,
Dennis
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Post by benar on Jan 6, 2020 3:25:31 GMT -5
Please enlighten an intellectually challenged bloke like me. life = ship sinking = satan lifeboat = Jesus Nope, still a false analogy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 3:50:44 GMT -5
life = ship sinking = satan lifeboat = Jesus Nope, still a false analogy. this is why you'll never "get it" along with a few others here on TMB....
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Post by benar on Jan 6, 2020 6:39:54 GMT -5
Nope, still a false analogy. this is why you'll never "get it" along with a few others here on TMB.... See, alarm bells should ring when the instruction manual says that questioning is bad, tempting the author is bad and you must submit like little children in order for you to be swallowed whole by the 'program'. In terms of a manual for population control, the Bible is brilliant! Basically, the argument you present (which is a very common one) is that if you don't 'get it' yet, you haven't quite deluded yourself enough... Keep closing of rational and logical thought and you'll finally be 'one of us'.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 9:18:13 GMT -5
depends on who is in your field. Generally however I found that loving their master involves having lots of workers pictures, having an open home for meetings, being helpful at convention, making sure that the workers special diet and every need are catered to, and generally talking about the workers any chance that they are together. What load of horse feathers. I agree. I don't understand the mindset either.
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Post by Dan on Jan 6, 2020 12:45:24 GMT -5
Not really a choice, is it? If the person offering you salvation is the one threatening the torture, it’s not salvation, it’s extortion.Would you accept this sort of ultimatum from anyone else, Dan?
God is not just anyone else, the bottom line for me is that Christ is Life and if we refuse to partake of that Tree of Life, we perish. Extortion is trying to get something through force or threat, God does not force anything and He doesn't threaten us, the choice is ours, we freely choose to live or die. We have nothing that God needs to extort, He said "All souls are mine" (Ezekiel 18:4), so how does God extort something which is already rightfully His? Logical Fallacy Alert! Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle. I can hold a gun to your head and ask politely for your wallet. I'm not forcing you to give it to me. The choice to live or die is yours...
Your probably right, God is an exception to general principles, since everything is His, God is bound by nothing and doesn't negotiate, it simply is what He says it is. Your analogy is irrelevant because God is not holding a gun and He already owns your wallet. If your walking down the street and someone offers you a ride, that's not a threat and its not extortion. If your going to die and someone offers you life, that is not a threat or extortion either.. It all depends on how you look at it, it can be negative or positive depending how one chooses to spin it. Believers look at life as a gift and nonbelievers see death as a threat.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 6, 2020 12:50:42 GMT -5
well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens....if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation? It would be extortion if you had to prove your worthiness ahead of time. The thief on the cross didnt.
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Post by snow on Jan 6, 2020 13:26:48 GMT -5
@wally that's something that I can't understand. When you take something we clearly would not accept from humans and say it's okay if it's a god doesn't make sense to me. Gods should be held to a higher standard than a human wouldn't you agree? So why is it okay for a god to extort you if it's not okay for a human to extort you? Really don't understand this at all. If something is wrong, it's just wrong in all ways no matter who does it in my world. well first off its not extortion with what God does but when humans extort nothing good happens....if your in a sinking ship and someone says get in the lifeboats or die is that extortion or salvation? That's not what God is saying. He's saying I have rules, if you don't do what I say, I will punish you forever. In your scenario someone telling you to get into a lifeboat is a benign request with no threat of punishment at the end of it. Making a bunch of rules, not showing up yet expecting belief in him, then promising to punish you if you don't believe in what you can't see, after he's given you free will and knows from the start if you will be going to heaven or hell, is extortion. It's a scam a set up of the highest degree. And, since there is no God, it's humans that have started this set up/scam so that they can have control over people. Threats of eternal punishment works for some people to just obey, just in case.
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