|
Post by speak on Dec 2, 2019 20:10:42 GMT -5
Well you don't have to participate, nobody asked you to comment. Speak, I think you need to get on your knees more often ... Your response is typical 2x2 self righteousness... Thanks for your self righteous response
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 2, 2019 23:01:17 GMT -5
The topic of "self-righteousness" would not even have been brought into the conversation if you, speak, -hadn't displayed your "self-righteousness" in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by benar on Dec 3, 2019 0:59:44 GMT -5
It seems @gratu has deleted his post. (what's with that? You would think if his message is so important he would leave it for eternity for everyone to see...) But basically, the gist is that the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. This fallacious logic can be demonstrated thus:
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Dec 3, 2019 1:33:20 GMT -5
Lately even before finding this site I’ve been making excuses to not go to meetings. I stress so much about finding something to speak on no matter how much I read every day. After finding this site and the history if the “truth” I am in shock and am more confused than ever. I left the truth at 16 and came back 2 years ago. Professed a year ago and still feel like I know nothing. I was led to believe this is the only way and many in my meeting speak of this and speak how glad that they’re no part of worldly churches. Workers speak of working for salvation and I’m not even sure how to work for it. Jon knockemous (idk how to spell his last name I know I butchered it) spoke in great length about Trinity and how it is all wrong when I was a little girl.I remember he had scripture to back it up I didn’t memorize which cause I was like 12 at the time. Gloria Edwards spoke of workers being apostles and those professing as disciples of Jesus. At the time it made perfect sense they were teachers of Christ. I am just finding out these things could very much not be true. I even have new questions like what is the Holy Spirit? I know it’s something to do with god and getting it if I have the right spirit but idk how to obtain it or what exactly it is. I live an hour away from every meeting and the only time I can meet with friends is if I drive an hour or more away. I’m left in the dark a lot idek which workers are in my area no worker has spoken since convention time. I live on military base so workers don’t stay which I understand due to the difficulty of getting passed to get on bases. Plus my husband doesn’t profess (married before coming back to meeting) and has a huge TV in living room which they wouldn’t appreciate. I truly feel confused and alone. I can’t speak to my parents of this I know they would worry of me “falling out” again after I had just came back to the fold. Idk why I’m posting I just want to share with someone who doesn’t know me and wouldn’t pass judgement on my salvation. This makes me sad but know that many have and are going through this. Plenty of people willing to offer advice, I would question performance based advice as this is what has been the build up of some of the burdens you carry. By this I mean, do you pray enough, attend enough meetings, the expectance you feel to attend meetings ect and these things that play on your mind like do you have a testimony, is it fruitful enough ect ect which you have been led to believe is tied to or working for your salvation which then weighs heavily on your mind unnecessarily and rational people do irrational things such is the power of this spiritual effect or abuse. Do not let these things come between you and the love for your husband or family. I know too many people that have been driven away from family, broken marriages, broken families, broken friendships ect from these exact situations. Wether it be from guilt on your part for thinking your not performing good enough or a message or sign you think is from God to leave your husband, or continuing for fear of your parents judement or worrying about TV's and workers. All of these things come from spiritual abuse and there is no biblical evidence that severing ties with loved ones is encouraged or releaves burden is these situations and anyone that suggests otherwise is I would treat warily. I have no right answer how to juggle these problems because it feels like a dammed if you do and dammed if you dont situation. markdejesus.com/10-toxic-stages-of-performance-based-christianity/markdejesus.com/14-signs-spiritual-abuse/I believe you will be able to relate to these articles. I first felt anger when reading these but have since come to realise the power of spiritual abuse and performanced based Christianity and how many are contributing to it unknowingly, out of zeal for their belief, and for their own comfort. You feel better when you think your doing the right thing, right?. I know I do!. But just how do we know what is the right thing? I can tell you one thing, beating yourself into submission like you have been taught is not the right thing!. That does not mean everything I say is right but no Good comes out of beating yourself into submission!. Heres a thought to ponder. Jesus said "love thy neighbor as thyself. If you love yourself by beating yourself into submission how do you love others? how do yoy treat others? how do you judge others? how do you look at others? you treat them like you treat yourself. Maybe that explains alot about why people are like they are huh! 😁 Happy to discuss more!. Chin up and stop beating yourself up😁😁😁, we love you!!.
|
|
|
Post by speak on Dec 3, 2019 1:46:23 GMT -5
The topic of "self-righteousness" would not even have been brought into the conversation if you, speak, -hadn't displayed your "self-righteousness" in the first place. That's as only you see it
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 3, 2019 1:57:27 GMT -5
It seems @gratu has deleted his post. (what's with that? You would think if his message is so important he would leave it for eternity for everyone to see...) But basically, the gist is that the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. This fallacious logic can be demonstrated thus: View AttachmentTrump also claims he's honest
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 2:02:02 GMT -5
It seems @gratu has deleted his post. (what's with that? You would think if his message is so important he would leave it for eternity for everyone to see...) But basically, the gist is that the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. This fallacious logic can be demonstrated thus: that can be applied to everything written including so called scientific papers...
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 3, 2019 2:18:02 GMT -5
It seems @gratu has deleted his post. (what's with that? You would think if his message is so important he would leave it for eternity for everyone to see...) But basically, the gist is that the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. This fallacious logic can be demonstrated thus: that can be applied to everything written including so called scientific papers... Wrong, Wally.
"Scientific papers," -as you refer to them are reviewed and researched and tested to see if the same results are found. If they can't be replicated they are rejected.
Believers do NOT put the bible to such tough standards. Even when the bible contradicts it's self, -you & others will twist it into pretzels in an attempt to make it fit.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 2:23:32 GMT -5
that can be applied to everything written including so called scientific papers... Wrong, Wally.
"Scientific papers," -as you refer to them are reviewed and researched and tested to see if the same results are found. If they can't be replicated they are rejected.
Believers do NOT put the bible to such tough standards. Even when the bible contradicts it's self, -you & others will twist it into pretzels in an attempt to make it fit. the bible is the most researched and reviewed document that has ever existed in history and with time(sometimes a lot of time), meditation, prayer, revelation, and reading has rarely been found wanting...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 3:56:43 GMT -5
Wrong, Wally.
"Scientific papers," -as you refer to them are reviewed and researched and tested to see if the same results are found. If they can't be replicated they are rejected.
Believers do NOT put the bible to such tough standards. Even when the bible contradicts it's self, -you & others will twist it into pretzels in an attempt to make it fit. the bible is the most researched and reviewed document that has ever existed in history and with time(sometimes a lot of time), meditation, prayer, revelation, and reading has rarely been found wanting... What has been found wanting is a detailed description by you of the revelation that you claimed to have had from God telling you that the bible is true. I asked you for this a few days ago and so far nothing has been forthcoming. No description of anything God said to you audibly. No explanation of how you knew for certain it was God revealing this information to you. No information on the nature of this revelation or when or where this revelation occurred. No evidence at all that there was any external entity involved in the process. No details of the revelation whatsoever. As I explained to you previously, religious revelations inevitably turn out to be merely a mixture of internal thoughts and feelings. They are one way conversations with one’s self. They occur as a result of religious delusions where the believer believes he or she is in touch with a God which they have created in their own head. That’s why non believers don’t get these revelations. One has to be subjected to a heavy dose of religious teaching/indoctrination before one can become sufficiently religiously deluded to experience a ‘revelation’. Oh that God would speak audibly to someone telling them that the bible was true so that what He said could be recorded. Oh that God would send us a letter telling us that the bible was true so that we could all read it. Oh that God would write it in large letters on a piece of rock high on a mountain as he (supposedly) did with Moses. Oh that God would appear in person to a group of believers and non believers alike with a copy of the bible in one hand and a miniature angel in the other. But he doesn’t. Instead the believers would have you believe that God reveals things to them in mysterious ways, so mysterious that there is absolutely no evidence of his involvement in the revelation whatsoever and so mysterious that no one but the most fanatical religious believer could ever be persuaded that a revelation ever occurred. As one who was once religiously deluded I understand religious delusion all too well. I know the signs to look for. And the lack of credible explanations is a sure sign that no such revelation occurred. And without such a revelation there is no evidence whatsoever to persuade any reasonable intelligent person that the bible is true at all. Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 7:05:04 GMT -5
the bible is the most researched and reviewed document that has ever existed in history and with time(sometimes a lot of time), meditation, prayer, revelation, and reading has rarely been found wanting... What has been found wanting is a detailed description by you of the revelation that you claimed to have had from God telling you that the bible is true. I asked you for this a few days ago and so far nothing has been forthcoming. No description of anything God said to you audibly. No explanation of how you knew for certain it was God revealing this information to you. No information on the nature of this revelation or when or where this revelation occurred. No evidence at all that there was any external entity involved in the process. No details of the revelation whatsoever. As I explained to you previously, religious revelations inevitably turn out to be merely a mixture of internal thoughts and feelings. They are one way conversations with one’s self. They occur as a result of religious delusions where the believer believes he or she is in touch with a God which they have created in their own head. That’s why non believers don’t get these revelations. One has to be subjected to a heavy dose of religious teaching/indoctrination before one can become sufficiently religiously deluded to experience a ‘revelation’. Oh that God would speak audibly to someone telling them that the bible was true so that what He said could be recorded. Oh that God would send us a letter telling us that the bible was true so that we could all read it. Oh that God would write it in large letters on a piece of rock high on a mountain as he (supposedly) did with Moses. Oh that God would appear in person to a group of believers and non believers alike with a copy of the bible in one hand and a miniature angel in the other. But he doesn’t. Instead the believers would have you believe that God reveals things to them in mysterious ways, so mysterious that there is absolutely no evidence of his involvement in the revelation whatsoever and so mysterious that no one but the most fanatical religious believer could ever be persuaded that a revelation ever occurred. As one who was once religiously deluded I understand religious delusion all too well. I know the signs to look for. And the lack of credible explanations is a sure sign that no such revelation occurred. And without such a revelation there is no evidence whatsoever to persuade any reasonable intelligent person that the bible is true at all. Matt10 your inability to grasp that there is no scientific evidence would be quite hilarious if it wasn't so sad and dangerous.most of the evidence was on display 2000 years ago to bad you weren't alive then to see it thems the breaks. just because you lack the faith to believe in such doesn't mean others have the same lack. but by all means stick to your nature god while i stick with the True creator like some of the yanomami indians call him.
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Dec 3, 2019 8:32:03 GMT -5
Lately even before finding this site I’ve been making excuses to not go to meetings. I stress so much about finding something to speak on no matter how much I read every day. After finding this site and the history if the “truth” I am in shock and am more confused than ever. I left the truth at 16 and came back 2 years ago. Professed a year ago and still feel like I know nothing. I was led to believe this is the only way and many in my meeting speak of this and speak how glad that they’re no part of worldly churches. Workers speak of working for salvation and I’m not even sure how to work for it. Jon knockemous (idk how to spell his last name I know I butchered it) spoke in great length about Trinity and how it is all wrong when I was a little girl.I remember he had scripture to back it up I didn’t memorize which cause I was like 12 at the time. Gloria Edwards spoke of workers being apostles and those professing as disciples of Jesus. At the time it made perfect sense they were teachers of Christ. I am just finding out these things could very much not be true. I even have new questions like what is the Holy Spirit? I know it’s something to do with god and getting it if I have the right spirit but idk how to obtain it or what exactly it is. I live an hour away from every meeting and the only time I can meet with friends is if I drive an hour or more away. I’m left in the dark a lot idek which workers are in my area no worker has spoken since convention time. I live on military base so workers don’t stay which I understand due to the difficulty of getting passed to get on bases. Plus my husband doesn’t profess (married before coming back to meeting) and has a huge TV in living room which they wouldn’t appreciate. I truly feel confused and alone. I can’t speak to my parents of this I know they would worry of me “falling out” again after I had just came back to the fold. Idk why I’m posting I just want to share with someone who doesn’t know me and wouldn’t pass judgement on my salvation.
The "Truth" is Christ, no single church is the 'only' way. The Workers do surrender worldly possessions and spread the gospel in a more missionary fashion (evangelist), which is how the apostles were originally instructed to do. I personally believe that any church that teaches the bible is Christian, but many have strayed and are infused with their own man-made doctrines. Simply compare the life and teachings of Christ with what you hear in any meeting or service, if it doesn't conflict with the New Testament, your in a true Christian way/church. Christ was and is the Way, his church consist of all those who profess him as their Savior, any organization or group of Christians can be in the Way, but none of them are The Way.
You should want to go to meetings, making excuses might raise some underlining issues that only you can address.. I'd just recommend asking questions if your puzzled or are not content, it shouldn't be confusing. There are a lot of sincere people in the meetings and the dedication of the Workers is admirable, but no one owns the Truth, we all just try to follow it. Don't let any knit-picking here sway you, don't get caught-up in any non-biblical rules or religious malarkey, just go where your fed the truth.
Many churches today don't teach the bible, some misinterpret and misconstrue the scriptures, some sound more like motivational speakers or promote a prosperity gospel, so there is a plethora of self-serving fakes who promote themselves by preaching what sells. "For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things" (Philippians 3:18-19). Just my 2 cents
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Dec 3, 2019 8:54:52 GMT -5
the bible is the most researched and reviewed document that has ever existed in history and with time(sometimes a lot of time), meditation, prayer, revelation, and reading has rarely been found wanting... What has been found wanting is a detailed description by you of the revelation that you claimed to have had from God telling you that the bible is true. I asked you for this a few days ago and so far nothing has been forthcoming. No description of anything God said to you audibly. No explanation of how you knew for certain it was God revealing this information to you. No information on the nature of this revelation or when or where this revelation occurred. No evidence at all that there was any external entity involved in the process. No details of the revelation whatsoever. As I explained to you previously, religious revelations inevitably turn out to be merely a mixture of internal thoughts and feelings. They are one way conversations with one’s self. They occur as a result of religious delusions where the believer believes he or she is in touch with a God which they have created in their own head. That’s why non believers don’t get these revelations. One has to be subjected to a heavy dose of religious teaching/indoctrination before one can become sufficiently religiously deluded to experience a ‘revelation’. Oh that God would speak audibly to someone telling them that the bible was true so that what He said could be recorded. Oh that God would send us a letter telling us that the bible was true so that we could all read it. Oh that God would write it in large letters on a piece of rock high on a mountain as he (supposedly) did with Moses. Oh that God would appear in person to a group of believers and non believers alike with a copy of the bible in one hand and a miniature angel in the other. But he doesn’t. Instead the believers would have you believe that God reveals things to them in mysterious ways, so mysterious that there is absolutely no evidence of his involvement in the revelation whatsoever and so mysterious that no one but the most fanatical religious believer could ever be persuaded that a revelation ever occurred. As one who was once religiously deluded I understand religious delusion all too well. I know the signs to look for. And the lack of credible explanations is a sure sign that no such revelation occurred. And without such a revelation there is no evidence whatsoever to persuade any reasonable intelligent person that the bible is true at all. Matt10
There's no miraculous things that persuade, convince, or sway a person to believe, its simply a choice and then received by faith. For myself, faith is not blind, there is archaeological, historical, and prophetic evidence that substantiate the bible. Archeology isn't proof per se, but it is evidence that the cities existed and that people mentioned also existed at the time. When landmarks and historical figures are real and accurate, it lends credibility that the authors recording said events were not fabricating a fairy tale. Imo, it requires more belief to spin it off as something fake.
You can certainly write-off fulfilled prophecies as a hoax, but I choose to believe them because it would have required one hell of a collaborated effort to pull off the greatest scam in history. Plus, how do you explain the prophecy in Daniel 7? There is absolutely no way that this future prophecy predicting the rise & fall of 4 ruling kingdoms could have been arranged to coincide with future events ( Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, & Rome). Quite a coincidence? Not to mention Christ predicting that he would rise from his grave in 3 days. Even with Roman soldiers guarding the tomb, there's no body. And the predicted destruction of the temple, Rome obviously didn't destroy it to coincide with prophecy.
Prophecy also predicted the Jews would reject Christ (Isaiah 6:9-10). Christ reiterated it (John 12:40, Matthew 13:14) and so did Paul (Acts28:26). Its no accident that they are blinded to this day, so it was written and so it is.. When you have so many prophecies come to pass and none that have failed or been proven false, the accumulative coincidences can certainly be construed and weighed as solid evidence by anyone with common sense.. Consider Isaiah's prophecy of King Cyrus of Persia in chapter 45, not only predicting his reign 150 years in advance, but referring to him by name! It certainly seems to me that all of that biblical dogma has a remarkable record of accidental accuracy.
There's comes a point where biblical stories and prophecies would fall apart if they were fabricated lies. But that hasn't happened for some unexplained reason. I guess its just very difficult, if not impossible to cast doubt on the truth. It makes no difference whether others take it or leave it, I'm just here stating my reasons for believing it.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Dec 3, 2019 10:07:57 GMT -5
the bible is the most researched and reviewed document that has ever existed in history and with time(sometimes a lot of time), meditation, prayer, revelation, and reading has rarely been found wanting... What has been found wanting is a detailed description by you of the revelation that you claimed to have had from God telling you that the bible is true. I asked you for this a few days ago and so far nothing has been forthcoming. No description of anything God said to you audibly. No explanation of how you knew for certain it was God revealing this information to you. No information on the nature of this revelation or when or where this revelation occurred. No evidence at all that there was any external entity involved in the process. No details of the revelation whatsoever. As I explained to you previously, religious revelations inevitably turn out to be merely a mixture of internal thoughts and feelings. They are one way conversations with one’s self. They occur as a result of religious delusions where the believer believes he or she is in touch with a God which they have created in their own head. That’s why non believers don’t get these revelations. One has to be subjected to a heavy dose of religious teaching/indoctrination before one can become sufficiently religiously deluded to experience a ‘revelation’. Oh that God would speak audibly to someone telling them that the bible was true so that what He said could be recorded. Oh that God would send us a letter telling us that the bible was true so that we could all read it. Oh that God would write it in large letters on a piece of rock high on a mountain as he (supposedly) did with Moses. Oh that God would appear in person to a group of believers and non believers alike with a copy of the bible in one hand and a miniature angel in the other. But he doesn’t. Instead the believers would have you believe that God reveals things to them in mysterious ways, so mysterious that there is absolutely no evidence of his involvement in the revelation whatsoever and so mysterious that no one but the most fanatical religious believer could ever be persuaded that a revelation ever occurred. As one who was once religiously deluded I understand religious delusion all too well. I know the signs to look for. And the lack of credible explanations is a sure sign that no such revelation occurred. And without such a revelation there is no evidence whatsoever to persuade any reasonable intelligent person that the bible is true at all. Matt10 Is this kind of letter from Christ God you are looking for?
~~ Jesus The Great " I AM " God (From The Dead Sea Scrolls found in caves 1947)
I, the Lord God of creation, who was and who is and who shall always be the one true God, the mind, the very center of the Universe, speaks to your own heart. The words that I have spoken to my prophets Moses and others were that he should recognize that the great “I Am.” filled his being with the power and the authority to open his mouth in my name and to proclaim his words as a living words that I placed deeply within him.
I have in times past spoken through the mouths of my prophets and then through the mouths of my apostles. Now the times and seasons are approaching, as are the reasons, when my words shall again be spoken by my obedient prophets and apostles. Their words shall be my words and their deeds that shall be my deeds, because I have spoken this thing before the World was ever formed. Those words that I now speak shall be hidden for a season and then shall be revealed in the last times
I shall cause the Earth to quake and the sunlight, which represents the new dawning, shall shine brightly upon those who are appointed to carry my words from the darkness of the caves to the bright sunlight of my new revelation to all mankind ... and mankind shall read and they shall study those words and they shall find that they are the words that will cause an awakening to occur in the minds of mankind.
It has been said in times past that I am in the wind and I am in the fire and I am into the waters. These words are not true. The truth of this matter is that I am the wind. I am the fire. I am the water. I am in everything and in everything that exists. When you touch the mountain, you touch me. When you are touching the water, you are touching me. When you touch the fire, you are touching me. I am the Lord of the Universe and there is not one place that I am not. I am not in the flowers, the plants, the fruit of the land, but I am the flowers. I am the plants. I am the fruit of the land. Mankind will climb into the heavens. I am not in the heavenly, but I am the heavenly. When I created man from the dust of the Earth, I was the dust of the Earth and I was and am the breath of life that causes mankind to live.
Say not that the Lord your God is in the heavens or on the Earth. I am the heavens and I am the Earth. Now you have received the true revelation of my word, which was spoken to you in times past. The word said that I am everywhere present. I am omnipresent. I am not part of myself, but rather I am the whole of the Universe. Wherever you look, wherever you come or go, whatever you do or say, I am there in the midst of you because I am not only in, but rather I am you!
It shall be written in the future that man is the universe. I say to you that I do not dwell in the universe of mankind, but I am that Universe of Mankind, and there is no separation whatsoever. These words that I have spoken to you at this time and in this place are that you might believe the truth of the message that as my Father is one with me so is the Spirit one with me. Now I am likewise in you and you are in me and that means I am one and you are with me. Have I not spoken these words in the past that I am in you and you are in me? (John 17:21) Jesus said, " That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." Let this testimony be with you forever and forever, as we together traverse the streets of that sojourn from dawn to night. Be at peace and look deeply within yourself and you will find me.
Again I have spoken the words in the past that you are indeed gods. I am your God. This revelation is of utmost importance and you must believe the whole truth as I have spoken it in your pure hearing. I say to you, allow the vibrations of your spirit, your inner ear, be unstopped and hear what the Spirit says to you at this hour. I am the center of your universe, because I am the whole of your universe. Know this, for this is the word of the living God, the Creator of all things which are. In time and seasons to come this word will be revealed to you and you shall behold the brightness of this truth, and you shall say, “This is the light for which I have long awaited. This is the revelation that will hold and maintain me through every experience of life.”
Beware, there are those who would destroy this truth, but they shall not be able to destroy this truth because the truth abides in you and you abide in the truth. I have spoken in times past. And I have said that the truth shall cause many to walk in freedom, out of darkness and satanic bondage. And they shall have no further influence or rule over you. I have spoken these truths by the words of my lips and these words are true. Accept them and you shall live in peace, in joy and in victory over all things. Amen!
You are invited to share this information with others, but kindly acknowledge copyright and keep this article intact.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 3, 2019 12:02:52 GMT -5
What has been found wanting is a detailed description by you of the revelation that you claimed to have had from God telling you that the bible is true. I asked you for this a few days ago and so far nothing has been forthcoming. No description of anything God said to you audibly. No explanation of how you knew for certain it was God revealing this information to you. No information on the nature of this revelation or when or where this revelation occurred. No evidence at all that there was any external entity involved in the process. No details of the revelation whatsoever. As I explained to you previously, religious revelations inevitably turn out to be merely a mixture of internal thoughts and feelings. They are one way conversations with one’s self. They occur as a result of religious delusions where the believer believes he or she is in touch with a God which they have created in their own head. That’s why non believers don’t get these revelations. One has to be subjected to a heavy dose of religious teaching/indoctrination before one can become sufficiently religiously deluded to experience a ‘revelation’. Oh that God would speak audibly to someone telling them that the bible was true so that what He said could be recorded. Oh that God would send us a letter telling us that the bible was true so that we could all read it. Oh that God would write it in large letters on a piece of rock high on a mountain as he (supposedly) did with Moses. Oh that God would appear in person to a group of believers and non believers alike with a copy of the bible in one hand and a miniature angel in the other. But he doesn’t. Instead the believers would have you believe that God reveals things to them in mysterious ways, so mysterious that there is absolutely no evidence of his involvement in the revelation whatsoever and so mysterious that no one but the most fanatical religious believer could ever be persuaded that a revelation ever occurred. As one who was once religiously deluded I understand religious delusion all too well. I know the signs to look for. And the lack of credible explanations is a sure sign that no such revelation occurred. And without such a revelation there is no evidence whatsoever to persuade any reasonable intelligent person that the bible is true at all. Matt10 There's no miraculous things that persuade, convince, or sway a person to believe, its simply a choice and then received by faith. For myself, faith is not blind, there is archaeological, historical, and prophetic evidence that substantiate the bible. Archeology isn't proof per se, but it is evidence that the cities existed and that people mentioned also existed at the time. When landmarks and historical figures are real and accurate, it lends credibility that the authors recording said events were not fabricating a fairy tale. Imo, it requires more belief to spin it off as something fake.
You can certainly write-off fulfilled prophecies as a hoax, but I choose to believe them because it would have required one hell of a collaborated effort to pull off the greatest scam in history. Plus, how do you explain the prophecy in Daniel 7? There is absolutely no way that this future prophecy predicting the rise & fall of 4 ruling kingdoms could have been arranged to coincide with future events ( Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, & Rome). Quite a coincidence? Not to mention Christ predicting that he would rise from his grave in 3 days. Even with Roman soldiers guarding the tomb, there's no body. And the predicted destruction of the temple, Rome obviously didn't destroy it to coincide with prophecy.
Prophecy also predicted the Jews would reject Christ (Isaiah 6:9-10). Christ reiterated it (John 12:40, Matthew 13:14) and so did Paul (Acts28:26). Its no accident that they are blinded to this day, so it was written and so it is.. When you have so many prophecies come to pass and none that have failed or been proven false, the accumulative coincidences can certainly be construed and weighed as solid evidence by anyone with common sense.. Consider Isaiah's prophecy of King Cyrus of Persia in chapter 45, not only predicting his reign 150 years in advance, but referring to him by name! It certainly seems to me that all of that biblical dogma has a remarkable record of accidental accuracy.
There's comes a point where biblical stories and prophecies would fall apart if they were fabricated lies. But that hasn't happened for some unexplained reason. I guess its just very difficult, if not impossible to cast doubt on the truth. It makes no difference whether others take it or leave it, I'm just here stating my reasons for believing it.
I’ve discovered through Amir Tsarfati’s speeches on the Days of Ezekiel that THERE IS evidence in front of us even today. Jesus said when you see the fig tree leafing, summer is nigh. The fig tree is Israel’s national symbol. So Jesus was speaking to Jews and it naturally should follow that we too should watch what happens to the Jews, and it tells us according to the prophets exactly what the Lord has done and is about to do. I’d encourage everyone to listen to Amir!s bible talks because he opens up the OT in ways we as 2x2s never were taught and you can see the truth he tells .
|
|
|
Post by snow on Dec 3, 2019 13:25:30 GMT -5
It seems @gratu has deleted his post. (what's with that? You would think if his message is so important he would leave it for eternity for everyone to see...) But basically, the gist is that the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. This fallacious logic can be demonstrated thus: that can be applied to everything written including so called scientific papers... No, what is in scientific papers can be replicated by others, if found to be wrong, they can be changed and frequently are . You will never see that happen with any holy book.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Dec 3, 2019 13:27:47 GMT -5
Wrong, Wally.
"Scientific papers," -as you refer to them are reviewed and researched and tested to see if the same results are found. If they can't be replicated they are rejected.
Believers do NOT put the bible to such tough standards. Even when the bible contradicts it's self, -you & others will twist it into pretzels in an attempt to make it fit. the bible is the most researched and reviewed document that has ever existed in history and with time(sometimes a lot of time), meditation, prayer, revelation, and reading has rarely been found wanting... And all we see from those who want to continue believing in it are those we call 'apologetics'. Many who have studied the bible no longer believe in Gods because of all the inaccuracy in the bible. Same with the Koran and other sacred books. They aren't accurate and they contradict what we observe in the world. What's the point of denying what is obvious and observable?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Dec 3, 2019 14:16:36 GMT -5
Lately even before finding this site I’ve been making excuses to not go to meetings. I stress so much about finding something to speak on no matter how much I read every day. After finding this site and the history if the “truth” I am in shock and am more confused than ever. I left the truth at 16 and came back 2 years ago. Professed a year ago and still feel like I know nothing. I was led to believe this is the only way and many in my meeting speak of this and speak how glad that they’re no part of worldly churches. Workers speak of working for salvation and I’m not even sure how to work for it. Jon knockemous (idk how to spell his last name I know I butchered it) spoke in great length about Trinity and how it is all wrong when I was a little girl.I remember he had scripture to back it up I didn’t memorize which cause I was like 12 at the time. Gloria Edwards spoke of workers being apostles and those professing as disciples of Jesus. At the time it made perfect sense they were teachers of Christ. I am just finding out these things could very much not be true. I even have new questions like what is the Holy Spirit? I know it’s something to do with god and getting it if I have the right spirit but idk how to obtain it or what exactly it is. I live an hour away from every meeting and the only time I can meet with friends is if I drive an hour or more away. I’m left in the dark a lot idek which workers are in my area no worker has spoken since convention time. I live on military base so workers don’t stay which I understand due to the difficulty of getting passed to get on bases. Plus my husband doesn’t profess (married before coming back to meeting) and has a huge TV in living room which they wouldn’t appreciate. I truly feel confused and alone. I can’t speak to my parents of this I know they would worry of me “falling out” again after I had just came back to the fold. Idk why I’m posting I just want to share with someone who doesn’t know me and wouldn’t pass judgement on my salvation. To cider (if you are still reven reading on this board) I say again, the arguments between the TMB demolition crew are ALL refuted on page one of the thread "the reliability of the Bible. The TMB demo team could all go see their arguments easily resolved, but it is quite obvious they DO NOT WANT their creatred problems with the Bible resolved. professing.proboards.com/thread/28969/reliability-bible-troubled-2x2-visitorsBecause I decided to remove myself from their mess, this post will also be deleted soon - hope you see it cider. Why do you delete it then if you hope she sees it?
|
|
|
Post by benar on Dec 3, 2019 16:46:15 GMT -5
your inability to grasp that there is no scientific evidence would be quite hilarious if it wasn't so sad and dangerous.most of the evidence was on display 2000 years ago to bad you weren't alive then to see it thems the breaks. just because you lack the faith to believe in such doesn't mean others have the same lack. but by all means stick to your nature god while i stick with the True creator like some of the yanomami indians call him. What is dangerous is allowing faith to dictate one's choices. By definition, faith is a belief held without justification. Many parts of the world live in constant threat of Islamic terrorism, fuelled by the believers' faith in the fables of Islam. By faith, these people are so convinced their belief is true that they are willing to end their life and the lives of innocent others. That is dangerous!
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 3, 2019 16:52:01 GMT -5
The topic of "self-righteousness" would not even have been brought into the conversation if you, speak, -hadn't displayed your "self-righteousness" in the first place. That's as only you see it Yes, -that is the way I see it, -when someone tells another person that it, "Looks like you have not been on your knees enough?"
Yours was like a "judgement" that she hadn't "been on her knees enough," and different than when someone just encourages another person to "pray."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 16:54:47 GMT -5
your inability to grasp that there is no scientific evidence would be quite hilarious if it wasn't so sad and dangerous.most of the evidence was on display 2000 years ago to bad you weren't alive then to see it thems the breaks. just because you lack the faith to believe in such doesn't mean others have the same lack. but by all means stick to your nature god while i stick with the True creator like some of the yanomami indians call him. What is dangerous is allowing faith to dictate one's choices. By definition, faith is a belief held without justification. Many parts of the world live in constant threat of Islamic terrorism, fuelled by the believers' faith in the fables of Islam. By faith, these people are so convinced their belief is true that they are willing to end their life and the lives of innocent others. That is dangerous! i am looking at the oxford definition and it does not say what you said.... faith: 1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something. 2. Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 3, 2019 17:24:33 GMT -5
What is dangerous is allowing faith to dictate one's choices. By definition, faith is a belief held without justification. Many parts of the world live in constant threat of Islamic terrorism, fuelled by the believers' faith in the fables of Islam. By faith, these people are so convinced their belief is true that they are willing to end their life and the lives of innocent others. That is dangerous! i am looking at the oxford definition and it does not say what you said.... faith: 1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something. 2. Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. But Wally, -aren't the definitions the same? " faith is a belief held without justification." and "doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 17:49:07 GMT -5
What has been found wanting is a detailed description by you of the revelation that you claimed to have had from God telling you that the bible is true. I asked you for this a few days ago and so far nothing has been forthcoming. No description of anything God said to you audibly. No explanation of how you knew for certain it was God revealing this information to you. No information on the nature of this revelation or when or where this revelation occurred. No evidence at all that there was any external entity involved in the process. No details of the revelation whatsoever. As I explained to you previously, religious revelations inevitably turn out to be merely a mixture of internal thoughts and feelings. They are one way conversations with one’s self. They occur as a result of religious delusions where the believer believes he or she is in touch with a God which they have created in their own head. That’s why non believers don’t get these revelations. One has to be subjected to a heavy dose of religious teaching/indoctrination before one can become sufficiently religiously deluded to experience a ‘revelation’. Oh that God would speak audibly to someone telling them that the bible was true so that what He said could be recorded. Oh that God would send us a letter telling us that the bible was true so that we could all read it. Oh that God would write it in large letters on a piece of rock high on a mountain as he (supposedly) did with Moses. Oh that God would appear in person to a group of believers and non believers alike with a copy of the bible in one hand and a miniature angel in the other. But he doesn’t. Instead the believers would have you believe that God reveals things to them in mysterious ways, so mysterious that there is absolutely no evidence of his involvement in the revelation whatsoever and so mysterious that no one but the most fanatical religious believer could ever be persuaded that a revelation ever occurred. As one who was once religiously deluded I understand religious delusion all too well. I know the signs to look for. And the lack of credible explanations is a sure sign that no such revelation occurred. And without such a revelation there is no evidence whatsoever to persuade any reasonable intelligent person that the bible is true at all. Matt10
There's no miraculous things that persuade, convince, or sway a person to believe, its simply a choice and then received by faith. For myself, faith is not blind, there is archaeological, historical, and prophetic evidence that substantiate the bible. Archeology isn't proof per se, but it is evidence that the cities existed and that people mentioned also existed at the time. When landmarks and historical figures are real and accurate, it lends credibility that the authors recording said events were not fabricating a fairy tale. Imo, it requires more belief to spin it off as something fake.
You can certainly write-off fulfilled prophecies as a hoax, but I choose to believe them because it would have required one hell of a collaborated effort to pull off the greatest scam in history. Plus, how do you explain the prophecy in Daniel 7? There is absolutely no way that this future prophecy predicting the rise & fall of 4 ruling kingdoms could have been arranged to coincide with future events ( Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, & Rome). Quite a coincidence? Not to mention Christ predicting that he would rise from his grave in 3 days. Even with Roman soldiers guarding the tomb, there's no body. And the predicted destruction of the temple, Rome obviously didn't destroy it to coincide with prophecy.
Prophecy also predicted the Jews would reject Christ (Isaiah 6:9-10). Christ reiterated it (John 12:40, Matthew 13:14) and so did Paul (Acts28:26). Its no accident that they are blinded to this day, so it was written and so it is.. When you have so many prophecies come to pass and none that have failed or been proven false, the accumulative coincidences can certainly be construed and weighed as solid evidence by anyone with common sense.. Consider Isaiah's prophecy of King Cyrus of Persia in chapter 45, not only predicting his reign 150 years in advance, but referring to him by name! It certainly seems to me that all of that biblical dogma has a remarkable record of accidental accuracy.
There's comes a point where biblical stories and prophecies would fall apart if they were fabricated lies. But that hasn't happened for some unexplained reason. I guess its just very difficult, if not impossible to cast doubt on the truth. It makes no difference whether others take it or leave it, I'm just here stating my reasons for believing it.
I’m not exactly sure which point of mine you are addressing here but you appear to be arguing that because archaeological or historical evidence confirms that SOME of the landmarks or places or people named in certain books of the bible actually did exist, then this is evidence that EVERYTHING in the bible is true including stories of the ascension of Jesus up to heaven and of people turning into pillars of salt. If this is indeed the argument you are making, it is so obviously flawed that it hardly needs pointing out. Using this argument it would follow that because the Quran makes reference to people or places that actually did exist, then this lends credibility to the story of the prophet Mohammad flying to heaven on a winged horse. No reasonably intelligent person could possibly accept such an argument. Choosing to believe stories such as the resurrection of Jesus on the basis that you find it difficult to believe that so many people would believe the story if it wasn’t true, ignores the fact that when you have the might of the Roman empire and the Roman Catholic church helping to propagate a myth, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that so many people fall for it. It is also worth pointing out that what you choose to believe has absolutely no bearing on the facts. People falling for religious myths are as old as time itself whether it’s the 2x2 church’s claim that it wasn’t started by a man, the Catholic Church’s claim that the communion wine turns into the actual blood of Christ, Joseph Smith’s claim that God sent him down some plates or Islam’s claim that the prophet Mohammad sawed the moon in half. Religious indoctrination has a tendency to make people susceptible to believing anything no matter how incredible the belief is. Religion has demonstrated that it has the capacity to make otherwise intelligent people behave foolishly. Once you start believing in tales of talking donkeys and speaking serpents you really have to start having a good look at your beliefs. Finally I think you may have overlooked my point that there is simply no credible evidence to prove that the stories of the (supposed) resurrection and the (supposed) accession of Jesus up to heaven are factually correct and that a much more credible explanation is that these stories were simply made up and written down many years after the events were alleged to have taken place. It therefore makes no sense to claim that the occurrence of such events fulfil prophecy as the more credible explanation is that they were simply made up in order to make it LOOK like prophecy was fulfilled. It is also worth remembering that the great biblical prophecy that Jesus would return soon demonstrates that the bible is a hopelessly unreliable predictor of future events as two thousand years later there is still absolutely no sign of him ever coming back. If your local bus still hadn’t arrived two hours after the timetable had predicted it would, most rational people would conclude that it wasn’t coming. However religious believers are different. They are not rational people. For the religious believer evidence, facts and science are irrelevant; it is all about the belief. If the evidence (or the science or the facts) contradicts the belief they conclude that there must be something wrong with the evidence. If the law of gravity proves that a man dressed in a tunic and sandals can’t ascend up to heaven then there must be something wrong with Newton’s theory of gravitation. This is clearly very stupid. The bible is either a reliable predictor of events or it isn’t. And based on the non return of Jesus it clearly isn’t. And if the bible got something so fundamental to Christianity so spectacularly wrong you can help wondering what else it got wrong. Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 18:17:41 GMT -5
There's no miraculous things that persuade, convince, or sway a person to believe, its simply a choice and then received by faith. For myself, faith is not blind, there is archaeological, historical, and prophetic evidence that substantiate the bible. Archeology isn't proof per se, but it is evidence that the cities existed and that people mentioned also existed at the time. When landmarks and historical figures are real and accurate, it lends credibility that the authors recording said events were not fabricating a fairy tale. Imo, it requires more belief to spin it off as something fake.
You can certainly write-off fulfilled prophecies as a hoax, but I choose to believe them because it would have required one hell of a collaborated effort to pull off the greatest scam in history. Plus, how do you explain the prophecy in Daniel 7? There is absolutely no way that this future prophecy predicting the rise & fall of 4 ruling kingdoms could have been arranged to coincide with future events ( Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, & Rome). Quite a coincidence? Not to mention Christ predicting that he would rise from his grave in 3 days. Even with Roman soldiers guarding the tomb, there's no body. And the predicted destruction of the temple, Rome obviously didn't destroy it to coincide with prophecy.
Prophecy also predicted the Jews would reject Christ (Isaiah 6:9-10). Christ reiterated it (John 12:40, Matthew 13:14) and so did Paul (Acts28:26). Its no accident that they are blinded to this day, so it was written and so it is.. When you have so many prophecies come to pass and none that have failed or been proven false, the accumulative coincidences can certainly be construed and weighed as solid evidence by anyone with common sense.. Consider Isaiah's prophecy of King Cyrus of Persia in chapter 45, not only predicting his reign 150 years in advance, but referring to him by name! It certainly seems to me that all of that biblical dogma has a remarkable record of accidental accuracy.
There's comes a point where biblical stories and prophecies would fall apart if they were fabricated lies. But that hasn't happened for some unexplained reason. I guess its just very difficult, if not impossible to cast doubt on the truth. It makes no difference whether others take it or leave it, I'm just here stating my reasons for believing it.
I’m not exactly sure which point of mine you are addressing here but you appear to be arguing that because archaeological or historical evidence confirms that SOME of the landmarks or places or people named in certain books of the bible actually did exist, then this is evidence that EVERYTHING in the bible is true including stories of the ascension of Jesus up to heaven and of people turning into pillars of salt. If this is indeed the argument you are making, it is so obviously flawed that it hardly needs pointing out. Using this argument it would follow that because the Quran makes reference to people or places that actually did exist, then this lends credibility to the story of the prophet Mohammad flying to heaven on a winged horse. No reasonably intelligent person could possibly accept such an argument. Choosing to believe stories such as the resurrection of Jesus on the basis that you find it difficult to believe that so many people would believe the story if it wasn’t true, ignores the fact that when you have the might of the Roman empire and the Roman Catholic church helping to propagate a myth, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that so many people fall for it. It is also worth pointing out that what you choose to believe has absolutely no bearing on the facts. People falling for religious myths are as old as time itself whether it’s the 2x2 church’s claim that it wasn’t started by a man, the Catholic Church’s claim that the communion wine turns into the actual blood of Christ, Joseph Smith’s claim that God sent him down some plates or Islam’s claim that the prophet Mohammad sawed the moon in half. Religious indoctrination has a tendency to make people susceptible to believing anything no matter how incredible the belief is. Religion has demonstrated that it has the capacity to make otherwise intelligent people behave foolishly. Once you start believing in tales of talking donkeys and speaking serpents you really have to start having a good look at your beliefs. Finally I think you may have overlooked my point that there is simply no credible evidence to suggest that the stories of the (supposed) resurrection and the (supposed) accession of Jesus up to heaven are factually correct and that a much more credible explanation is that these stories were simply made up and written down many years after the events were alleged to have taken place. It therefore makes no sense to claim that the occurrence of such events fulfil prophecy as the more credible explanation is that they were simply made up in order to make it LOOK like prophecy was fulfilled. It is also worth remembering that the great biblical prophecy that Jesus would return soon demonstrates that the bible is a hopelessly unreliable predictor of future events as two thousand years later there is still absolutely no sign of him ever coming back. If your local bus still hadn’t arrived two hours after the timetable had predicted it would, most rational people would conclude that it wasn’t coming. However religious believers are different. They are not rational people. For the religious believer evidence, facts and science are irrelevant; it is all about the belief. If the evidence (or the science or the facts) contradicts the belief they conclude that there must be something wrong with the evidence. If the law of gravity proves that a man dressed in a tunic and sandals can’t ascend up to heaven then there must be something wrong with Newton’s theory of gravitation. This is clearly very stupid. The bible is either a reliable predictor of events or it isn’t. And based on the non return of Jesus it clearly isn’t. Matt10 its doesn't say he would return soon it says some standing there would not taste of death until his return...read your bible
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 3, 2019 20:54:49 GMT -5
I’m not exactly sure which point of mine you are addressing here but you appear to be arguing that because archaeological or historical evidence confirms that SOME of the landmarks or places or people named in certain books of the bible actually did exist, then this is evidence that EVERYTHING in the bible is true including stories of the ascension of Jesus up to heaven and of people turning into pillars of salt. If this is indeed the argument you are making, it is so obviously flawed that it hardly needs pointing out. Using this argument it would follow that because the Quran makes reference to people or places that actually did exist, then this lends credibility to the story of the prophet Mohammad flying to heaven on a winged horse. No reasonably intelligent person could possibly accept such an argument. Choosing to believe stories such as the resurrection of Jesus on the basis that you find it difficult to believe that so many people would believe the story if it wasn’t true, ignores the fact that when you have the might of the Roman empire and the Roman Catholic church helping to propagate a myth, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that so many people fall for it. It is also worth pointing out that what you choose to believe has absolutely no bearing on the facts. People falling for religious myths are as old as time itself whether it’s the 2x2 church’s claim that it wasn’t started by a man, the Catholic Church’s claim that the communion wine turns into the actual blood of Christ, Joseph Smith’s claim that God sent him down some plates or Islam’s claim that the prophet Mohammad sawed the moon in half. Religious indoctrination has a tendency to make people susceptible to believing anything no matter how incredible the belief is. Religion has demonstrated that it has the capacity to make otherwise intelligent people behave foolishly. Once you start believing in tales of talking donkeys and speaking serpents you really have to start having a good look at your beliefs. Finally I think you may have overlooked my point that there is simply no credible evidence to suggest that the stories of the (supposed) resurrection and the (supposed) accession of Jesus up to heaven are factually correct and that a much more credible explanation is that these stories were simply made up and written down many years after the events were alleged to have taken place. It therefore makes no sense to claim that the occurrence of such events fulfil prophecy as the more credible explanation is that they were simply made up in order to make it LOOK like prophecy was fulfilled. It is also worth remembering that the great biblical prophecy that Jesus would return soon demonstrates that the bible is a hopelessly unreliable predictor of future events as two thousand years later there is still absolutely no sign of him ever coming back. If your local bus still hadn’t arrived two hours after the timetable had predicted it would, most rational people would conclude that it wasn’t coming. However religious believers are different. They are not rational people. For the religious believer evidence, facts and science are irrelevant; it is all about the belief. If the evidence (or the science or the facts) contradicts the belief they conclude that there must be something wrong with the evidence. If the law of gravity proves that a man dressed in a tunic and sandals can’t ascend up to heaven then there must be something wrong with Newton’s theory of gravitation. This is clearly very stupid. The bible is either a reliable predictor of events or it isn’t. And based on the non return of Jesus it clearly isn’t. Matt10 its doesn't say he would return soon it says some standing there would not taste of death until his return...read your bible It doesn’t say that either , Wally. Jesus is speaking about the generation that would “see the fig tree’s branch is yet tender, and putters forth leaves, ye know summer is nigh.” He’s using a parable to explain how the Jews can tell when Jesus is returning. The fig tree is the national symbol for Israel, the generation that is watching the fertile productive state of Israel after so many years of barren land is what this is all about. This goes with the prophecies in Ezekiel 36-39. If you want to understand what it means listen to Amir Tsarfati’s “The Days of Ezekiel “ on YouTube. The problem people have caused themselves in misunderstanding what Jesus has said is not paying attention to what has happened to Israel and the Jews. So if you’ll listen to Amir open Ezekiel up in his prophecies then “this generation” becomes very clear. We will never know the fullness of God’s work until we are able to relate the NT to the OT.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 21:08:24 GMT -5
its doesn't say he would return soon it says some standing there would not taste of death until his return...read your bible It doesn’t say that either , Wally. Jesus is speaking about the generation that would “see the fig tree’s branch is yet tender, and putters forth leaves, ye know summer is nigh.” He’s using a parable to explain how the Jews can tell when Jesus is returning. The fig tree is the national symbol for Israel, the generation that is watching the fertile productive state of Israel after so many years of barren land is what this is all about. This goes with the prophecies in Ezekiel 36-39. If you want to understand what it means listen to Amir Tsarfati’s “The Days of Ezekiel “ on YouTube. The problem people have caused themselves in misunderstanding what Jesus has said is not paying attention to what has happened to Israel and the Jews. So if you’ll listen to Amir open Ezekiel up in his prophecies then “this generation” becomes very clear. We will never know the fullness of God’s work until we are able to relate the NT to the OT. Mat_16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. matthew 16 says nothing of fig trees...read your bible
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Dec 3, 2019 21:22:14 GMT -5
I’m not exactly sure which point of mine you are addressing here but you appear to be arguing that because archaeological or historical evidence confirms that SOME of the landmarks or places or people named in certain books of the bible actually did exist, then this is evidence that EVERYTHING in the bible is true including stories of the ascension of Jesus up to heaven and of people turning into pillars of salt. If this is indeed the argument you are making, it is so obviously flawed that it hardly needs pointing out. Using this argument it would follow that because the Quran makes reference to people or places that actually did exist, then this lends credibility to the story of the prophet Mohammad flying to heaven on a winged horse. No reasonably intelligent person could possibly accept such an argument. Choosing to believe stories such as the resurrection of Jesus on the basis that you find it difficult to believe that so many people would believe the story if it wasn’t true, ignores the fact that when you have the might of the Roman empire and the Roman Catholic church helping to propagate a myth, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that so many people fall for it. It is also worth pointing out that what you choose to believe has absolutely no bearing on the facts. People falling for religious myths are as old as time itself whether it’s the 2x2 church’s claim that it wasn’t started by a man, the Catholic Church’s claim that the communion wine turns into the actual blood of Christ, Joseph Smith’s claim that God sent him down some plates or Islam’s claim that the prophet Mohammad sawed the moon in half. Religious indoctrination has a tendency to make people susceptible to believing anything no matter how incredible the belief is. Religion has demonstrated that it has the capacity to make otherwise intelligent people behave foolishly. Once you start believing in tales of talking donkeys and speaking serpents you really have to start having a good look at your beliefs. Finally I think you may have overlooked my point that there is simply no credible evidence to prove that the stories of the (supposed) resurrection and the (supposed) accession of Jesus up to heaven are factually correct and that a much more credible explanation is that these stories were simply made up and written down many years after the events were alleged to have taken place. It therefore makes no sense to claim that the occurrence of such events fulfil prophecy as the more credible explanation is that they were simply made up in order to make it LOOK like prophecy was fulfilled. It is also worth remembering that the great biblical prophecy that Jesus would return soon demonstrates that the bible is a hopelessly unreliable predictor of future events as two thousand years later there is still absolutely no sign of him ever coming back. If your local bus still hadn’t arrived two hours after the timetable had predicted it would, most rational people would conclude that it wasn’t coming. However religious believers are different. They are not rational people. For the religious believer evidence, facts and science are irrelevant; it is all about the belief. If the evidence (or the science or the facts) contradicts the belief they conclude that there must be something wrong with the evidence. If the law of gravity proves that a man dressed in a tunic and sandals can’t ascend up to heaven then there must be something wrong with Newton’s theory of gravitation. This is clearly very stupid. The bible is either a reliable predictor of events or it isn’t. And based on the non return of Jesus it clearly isn’t. And if the bible got something so fundamental to Christianity so spectacularly wrong you can help wondering what else it got wrong. Matt10
My point was that most of the cities mentioned in the new testament have been authenticated, and some of the people like the High Priest Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, and King Herod were real characters that lived during the time of Christ. This doesn't prove the gospels, but it does lend credibility that the places and people were real. The bodies of Mohammed, Buddha, Confucius, and other religious leaders are in their graves, but the tomb of Christ is mysteriously empty.
Yes, the gospels could be fabricated tales, there is no objective evidence. But there is subjective evidence, especially in the prophecies I mentioned, where there is no way that the prophecy of Isaiah or Daniel could have been fabricated because they accurately predicted historical events, which could not have been made-up to fulfill prophecy. Sometimes a truth is derived from the preponderance of evidence, whereby belief can be a logical conclusion formed by rational people.
I agree with your comments about the Catholic Church, Joseph Smith, and Mohammad, nothing divine there. Also, I don't believe in talking snakes, the serpent was Satan. Balaam heard the angel of the Lord and mistakenly thought the donkey was speaking until the angel materialized. Jesus didn't say his return would be soon, some misread his saying that he would come quickly, but that simply means it would be immediate at the 7th trump.
The laws of science are only applicable to what we can physically observe. Consider that a God who established the law of gravity could also defy it. God is not bound by science, nor can he be proven in any science book. Science says that in the beginning there was nothing, and then nothing exploded! How rational or logical is that belief?
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 3, 2019 22:00:42 GMT -5
It doesn’t say that either , Wally. Jesus is speaking about the generation that would “see the fig tree’s branch is yet tender, and putters forth leaves, ye know summer is nigh.” He’s using a parable to explain how the Jews can tell when Jesus is returning. The fig tree is the national symbol for Israel, the generation that is watching the fertile productive state of Israel after so many years of barren land is what this is all about. This goes with the prophecies in Ezekiel 36-39. If you want to understand what it means listen to Amir Tsarfati’s “The Days of Ezekiel “ on YouTube. The problem people have caused themselves in misunderstanding what Jesus has said is not paying attention to what has happened to Israel and the Jews. So if you’ll listen to Amir open Ezekiel up in his prophecies then “this generation” becomes very clear. We will never know the fullness of God’s work until we are able to relate the NT to the OT. Mat_16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. matthew 16 says nothing of fig trees...read your bible I was reading my Bible, read yours , I was talking about Matthew 24:32 As to Matthew 16:28, need to go on into chapter 17 and it continues the story wher after six days Jesus took Peter, James and John up on the mount where they saw his transfiguration. If you don’t believe that was “him in his kingdom “ reference II Peter 1:16 where Peter tells about what they saw that day. Peter says “...we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, BUT WERE WITNESSES OF HIS MAJESTY.” This is Peter tellingof them seeing Jesus in his kingdom on that mount. THIS IS not my interpretation only. I’ve read it on got questions and other places.
|
|