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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 1:36:10 GMT -5
God may have made man in his own image (hindsight 20/20,...), but it is certain that man has returned the favor many times over. Different subtle versions, different major versions.
I think the argument can be distilled in this fashion: if the Trinity concept is true and Jesus was fully God, then salvation is a gift outright, and any "works" or kindness were show others is a manifestation of the joy of being saved. The temptations of Jesus would serve to help God understand our nature on our level, for the purpose of intercession.
If the Trinity concept is false and Jesus was man (who, with the spirits help managed to live perfectly), then his sacrifice is a necessary "Plan B" that we all end up needing. Since we're on trial (so to speak) on earth, salvation is uncertain at best, and our "works" are vaguely necessary in some way. Jesus was tempted therefore to show us that we can live sinless lives too, since he showed us it is possible.
There is actually scripture to support either idea in various measures, but from what I remember, the majority of 2x2 preaching was more in keeping with the second option.
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2019 15:54:27 GMT -5
God may have made man in his own image (hindsight 20/20,...), but it is certain that man has returned the favor many times over. Different subtle versions, different major versions. I think the argument can be distilled in this fashion: if the Trinity concept is true and Jesus was fully God, then salvation is a gift outright, and any "works" or kindness were show others is a manifestation of the joy of being saved. The temptations of Jesus would serve to help God understand our nature on our level, for the purpose of intercession. If the Trinity concept is false and Jesus was man (who, with the spirits help managed to live perfectly), then his sacrifice is a necessary "Plan B" that we all end up needing. Since we're on trial (so to speak) on earth, salvation is uncertain at best, and our "works" are vaguely necessary in some way. Jesus was tempted therefore to show us that we can live sinless lives too, since he showed us it is possible. There is actually scripture to support either idea in various measures, but from what I remember, the majority of 2x2 preaching was more in keeping with the second option. IMO I think that Jesus as a human that achieved perfection or close to it, is more of an inspiration than a God that got tempted with ruling the world he already ruled and somehow withstood the temptation! Same with the crucifixion. If he knew he couldn't be killed it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice compared to any human who hopes death isn't the end, but isn't 100% sure.
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2019 16:05:38 GMT -5
Hi Reborn,
Again I have spoken the words in the past that you are indeed gods. I am your God. This revelation is of utmost importance and you must believe the whole truth as I have spoken it in your pure hearing. I say to you, allow the vibrations of your spirit, your inner ear, be unstopped and hear what the Spirit says to you at this hour. I am the center of your universe, because I am the whole of your universe. Know this, for this is the word of the living God, the Creator of all things which are. In time and seasons to come this word will be revealed to you and you shall behold the brightness of this truth, and you shall say, “This is the light for which I have long awaited. This is the revelation that will hold and maintain me through every experience of life.”
Beware, there are those who would destroy this truth, but they shall not be able to destroy this truth because the truth abides in you and you abide in the truth. I have spoken in times past. And I have said that the truth shall cause many to walk in freedom, out of darkness and satanic bondage. And they shall have no further influence or rule over you. I have spoken these truths by the words of my lips and these words are true. Accept them and you shall live in peace, in joy and in victory over all things. Amen!
You are invited to share this information with others, but kindly acknowledge copyright and keep this article intact.
Except that's not what the bible says. It does say Have I not said that Ye are Gods. But it doesn't say that he said 'I am your god'. What he does say is why say I am blaspheming when I say I am 'the Son of God'. He doesn't say he's different from any of those who worships his God. He puts himself in the exact same category by saying Ye are all Gods, and when he says he's the son of god, so were all the rest sons of god. He never says he's God the son in the bible. Never.
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2019 16:09:03 GMT -5
But you wouldn't use the word trinity ? You know, I don’t care for the word Trinity either though have to admit what I believe is what the Trinity concept says. I don’t care for the word Trinity because people want to say that’s 3gods. Actually that's exactly what happened when the RCC introduced the doctrine of the trinity. Pagans accused them of worshiping 3 gods and they do, even though they try to make it seem like they are not. But no matter how you cut it, 3 entities are 3 entities. Just because they say they are part of a Godhead doesn't change that fact. We can have three people and the word Family makes them related. But it doesn't make the fact that there are 3 in the Family and not 1 person just because they are called a family.
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Post by mountain on Dec 4, 2019 16:15:13 GMT -5
No they don't say three gods. They say one god comprising of three separate persons. A very pagan principle.
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Post by nathan on Dec 4, 2019 16:36:06 GMT -5
Hi Reborn,
Again I have spoken the words in the past that you are indeed gods. I am your God. This revelation is of utmost importance and you must believe the whole truth as I have spoken it in your pure hearing. I say to you, allow the vibrations of your spirit, your inner ear, be unstopped and hear what the Spirit says to you at this hour. I am the center of your universe, because I am the whole of your universe. Know this, for this is the word of the living God, the Creator of all things which are. In time and seasons to come this word will be revealed to you and you shall behold the brightness of this truth, and you shall say, “This is the light for which I have long awaited. This is the revelation that will hold and maintain me through every experience of life.”
Beware, there are those who would destroy this truth, but they shall not be able to destroy this truth because the truth abides in you and you abide in the truth. I have spoken in times past. And I have said that the truth shall cause many to walk in freedom, out of darkness and satanic bondage. And they shall have no further influence or rule over you. I have spoken these truths by the words of my lips and these words are true. Accept them and you shall live in peace, in joy and in victory over all things. Amen!
You are invited to share this information with others, but kindly acknowledge copyright and keep this article intact.
Except that's not what the bible says. It does say Have I not said that Ye are Gods. But it doesn't say that he said 'I am your god'. What he does say is why say I am blaspheming when I say I am 'the Son of God'. He doesn't say he's different from any of those who worships his God. He puts himself in the exact same category by saying Ye are all Gods, and when he says he's the son of god, so were all the rest sons of god. He never says he's God the son in the bible. Never. ** Let me add Two and Two together for you. Christ is God and he is Jesus the Son of God that make him God the Son or God's Son. Jesus is Very special because he's the FIRST FRUIT of the Son of God created by God the Father. We believers in Christ are adopted through Him to become the sons and daughters of God.
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2019 16:43:38 GMT -5
Except that's not what the bible says. It does say Have I not said that Ye are Gods. But it doesn't say that he said 'I am your god'. What he does say is why say I am blaspheming when I say I am 'the Son of God'. He doesn't say he's different from any of those who worships his God. He puts himself in the exact same category by saying Ye are all Gods, and when he says he's the son of god, so were all the rest sons of god. He never says he's God the son in the bible. Never. ** Let me add Two and Two together for you. Christ is God and he is Jesus the Son of God that make him God the Son or God's Son. Jesus is Very special because he's the FIRST FRUIT of the Son of God created by God the Father. We believers in Christ are adopted through Him to become the sons and daughters of God. If Jesus is God then how can he be his own son? If he is a separate entity then how can you call Christianity monotheistic? I don't care how much it needs to be taken on faith or how convoluted the hoops are that the RCC want you to jump through to believe that 3 gods are actually 1 god. If there are 3 entities under one description, that is still 3 entities. There is a description called a Family of which there might be 3 individuals. Just because they come under the Family description, they are still 3 separate entities. Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit may be under the title of Godhead, but they are still 3 individuals under the heading of God.
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2019 16:44:59 GMT -5
No they don't say three gods. They say one god comprising of three separate persons. A very pagan principle. It totally was a pagan principle and that's why they were on the RCC's case about claiming to have just one God.
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Post by mountain on Dec 4, 2019 16:46:47 GMT -5
Ah I get it! God begat himself. He is both Father and Son. Although the trinity doctrine states that the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father and neither is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is neither, because they are all three separate persons, but since Jesus is God who is the Father, they are one and the same but different. It all makes absolute sense, especially when throughout the entirety of the Bible, God is the Father and the Father is God. These two terms are entirely synonymous, at least until we factor in the Son is also the Father, yet he is not, but he is God, although he is the Son of God. The same with the Holy Spirit. No wonder it drives people mad trying to understand it. This is worth a read! www.trinitytruth.org/paganoriginsofthetrinity.html
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Post by maryhig on Dec 4, 2019 16:50:14 GMT -5
Except that's not what the bible says. It does say Have I not said that Ye are Gods. But it doesn't say that he said 'I am your god'. What he does say is why say I am blaspheming when I say I am 'the Son of God'. He doesn't say he's different from any of those who worships his God. He puts himself in the exact same category by saying Ye are all Gods, and when he says he's the son of god, so were all the rest sons of god. He never says he's God the son in the bible. Never. ** Let me add Two and Two together for you. Christ is God and he is Jesus the Son of God that make him God the Son or God's Son. Jesus is Very special because he's the FIRST FRUIT of the Son of God created by God the Father. We believers in Christ are adopted through Him to become the sons and daughters of God. Then how can Jesus be God, if God the father created him? If God created Jesus, then God the father is also the God of Jesus Christ.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 4, 2019 16:51:55 GMT -5
** Let me add Two and Two together for you. Christ is God and he is Jesus the Son of God that make him God the Son or God's Son. Jesus is Very special because he's the FIRST FRUIT of the Son of God created by God the Father. We believers in Christ are adopted through Him to become the sons and daughters of God. Then how can Jesus be God, if God the father created him? If God created Jesus, then God the father is also the God of Jesus Christ. God must have cloned himself.
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Post by mountain on Dec 4, 2019 16:56:03 GMT -5
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Post by reborn on Dec 4, 2019 17:08:10 GMT -5
Actually I suggest no one read this. Pray directly to God for your revelation of him!
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2019 17:15:37 GMT -5
Actually I suggest no one read this. Pray directly to God for your revelation of him! The way I see this is that you will only believe how you interpret what you think God says to you. That's pretty limited isn't it? I don't know how you can do that. I'm always so curious about other viewpoints. I learn from viewpoints that others have because we can never by 100% what we think we know is actually accurate. The bible is full of different people that interpreted what they thought God was saying to them and look how many times it contradicts itself.
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Post by mountain on Dec 4, 2019 17:19:35 GMT -5
Actually I suggest no one read this. Pray directly to God for your revelation of him! Ultimately prayer and revelation are the key ingredients. However, since you have suggested that no one reads the link that I presented, I have to ask...'Did you read the link?' Then I ask, what did you find wrong with it? Why do you not expose such things? FWIW there are several points unrelated to the trinity doctrine that I disagree with, but they are not the point of discussion. If you did read the link, then why do you seek to deny others the same privilege? If you didn't read the link, then what are you on about? Are you worried your beliefs might be challenged?
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Post by reborn on Dec 4, 2019 17:29:42 GMT -5
Actually I suggest no one read this. Pray directly to God for your revelation of him! Ultimately prayer and revelation are the key ingredients. However, since you have suggested that no one reads the link that I presented, I have to ask...'Did you read the link?' Then I ask, what did you find wrong with it? Why do you not expose such things? FWIW there are several points unrelated to the trinity doctrine that I disagree with, but they are not the point of discussion. If you did read the link, then why do you seek to deny others the same privilege? If you didn't read the link, then what are you on about? Are you worried your beliefs might be challenged? God is NOT the AUTHOR of confusion! Yes, I tried really tried to read this piece. NOPE! I like my truth streamlined for me- God does that for all! He will speak a few words of TRUTH and a individual will have revelation revealed immediately. God has spoiled me! I have zero fear of my beliefs being challenged, as I know exactly where my beliefs come from. I used to be a unbeliever, and God in his mercy and kindness delivers me and taught me truth!
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Post by reborn on Dec 4, 2019 17:38:10 GMT -5
Ultimately prayer and revelation are the key ingredients. However, since you have suggested that no one reads the link that I presented, I have to ask...'Did you read the link?' Then I ask, what did you find wrong with it? Why do you not expose such things? FWIW there are several points unrelated to the trinity doctrine that I disagree with, but they are not the point of discussion. If you did read the link, then why do you seek to deny others the same privilege? If you didn't read the link, then what are you on about? Are you worried your beliefs might be challenged? God is NOT the AUTHOR of confusion! Yes, I tried really tried to read this piece. NOPE! I like my truth streamlined for me- God does that for all! He will speak a few words of TRUTH and a individual will have revelation revealed immediately. God has spoiled me! I have zero fear of my beliefs being challenged, as I know exactly where my beliefs come from. I used to be a unbeliever, and God in his mercy and kindness delivers me and taught me truth! A individual could be led down all kinds of paths of confusion and be all the worse for it. I KNOW where help comes from, and as I suggested, go to the source!BTW... Do you know that this is a resource site for Seventh Day Adventist’s? Is this your religion?
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Post by nathan on Dec 4, 2019 18:10:25 GMT -5
** Let me add Two and Two together for you. Christ is God and he is Jesus the Son of God that make him God the Son or God's Son. Jesus is Very special because he's the FIRST FRUIT of the Son of God created by God the Father. We believers in Christ are adopted through Him to become the sons and daughters of God. Then how can Jesus be God, if God the father created him? If God created Jesus, then God the father is also the God of Jesus Christ. ** Very simple to understand, Before the creation of the Universe The Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit! They are ETERNAL. God the Father is Creator of all things and Christ/God is His Co-creator of the heavens. It was Christ Who created Adam and Eve on the Godhead image in the Garden of Eden 6000 yrs ago. After Adam and Eve had sinned against the Godhead and they were banned from entering heaven AFTER death, their souls and all of believers and unbelievers souls went to Hades. Satan became their god, and He kept their souls in Hades/inner earth until the Judgment day. Adam and Eve repented of their sins, the ONLY WAY to take them from Hades is Christ/God had to die or taste eternal death for them on Calvary Cross in a human being body/Jesus. God the Father and Christ/God revealed their plans of Salvation to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15. 2000 yrs ago, God the Father sent Christ/God from heaven to live in the Person Jesus as a Redeemer/Savior of mankind. God the Father begotten Jesus and He sent the Spirit of Christ to live in the person Jesus. Therefore, God the Father is Jesus God but the Spirit that Christ lived in Jesus is God like unto the God the Father. On Calvary Cross Jesus called God the Father My God, My God why has thou forshake me? Jesus tasted/died eternal desperation from God for Adam, Eve and for ALL humanity. In Hebrews chapter 1 God the Father called the Son/Christ "God and LORD". God the Father and Christ BOTH are God and LORD.
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Post by reborn on Dec 4, 2019 18:15:43 GMT -5
Actually I suggest no one read this. Pray directly to God for your revelation of him! The way I see this is that you will only believe how you interpret what you think God says to you. That's pretty limited isn't it? I don't know how you can do that. I'm always so curious about other viewpoints. I learn from viewpoints that others have because we can never by 100% what we think we know is actually accurate. The bible is full of different people that interpreted what they thought God was saying to them and look how many times it contradicts itself. Yes! I am exclusively taught by God only when it comes to my God! I have found others whom I have great fellowship with because they have been taught by God as well. It is the only safe way to be when it comes to correct doctrine. The Bible itself uses the word “ Noble” when a individual seeks the scriptures to see if things be so! I search scripture, and pray diligently to have God open up/ reveal them to me. Yes! I own it! I’m exclusively Learning from God!
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2019 18:18:56 GMT -5
Then how can Jesus be God, if God the father created him? If God created Jesus, then God the father is also the God of Jesus Christ. ** Very simple to understand, Before the creation of the Universe The Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit! They are ETERNAL. God the Father is Creator of all things and Christ/God is His Co-creator of the heavens. It was Christ Who created Adam and Eve on the Godhead image in the Garden of Eden 6000 yrs ago. After Adam and Eve had sinned against the Godhead and they were banned from entering heaven AFTER death, their souls and all of believers and unbelievers souls went to Hades. Satan became their god, and He kept their souls in Hades/inner earth until the Judgment day. Adam and Eve repented of their sins, the ONLY WAY to take them from Hades is Christ/God had to die or taste eternal death for them on Calvary Cross in a human being body/Jesus. God the Father and Christ/God revealed their plans of Salvation to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15. 2000 yrs ago, God the Father sent Christ/God from heaven to live in the Person Jesus as a Redeemer/Savior of mankind. God the Father begotten Jesus and He sent the Spirit of Christ to live in the person Jesus. Therefore, God the Father is Jesus God but the Spirit that Christ lived in Jesus is God like unto the God the Father. On Calvary Cross Jesus called God the Father My God, My God why has thou forshake me? Jesus tasted/died eternal desperation from God for Adam, Eve and for ALL humanity. In Hebrews chapter 1 God the Father called the Son/Christ "God and LORD". God the Father and Christ BOTH are God and LORD. I think you misunderstood the question. If Jesus was begat by God the Father to make him the begotten son, how can he be God. How can Jesus be God if he was created by God. They couldn't have all existed forever if God created Jesus. God would have had to exist before Jesus in order to create him, right?
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2019 18:20:11 GMT -5
The way I see this is that you will only believe how you interpret what you think God says to you. That's pretty limited isn't it? I don't know how you can do that. I'm always so curious about other viewpoints. I learn from viewpoints that others have because we can never by 100% what we think we know is actually accurate. The bible is full of different people that interpreted what they thought God was saying to them and look how many times it contradicts itself. Yes! I am exclusively taught by God only when it comes to my God! I have found others whom I have great fellowship with because they have been taught by God as well. It is the only safe way to be when it comes to correct doctrine. The Bible itself uses the word “ Noble” when a individual seeks the scriptures to see if things be so! I search scripture, and pray diligently to have God open up/ reveal them to me. Yes! I own it! I’m exclusively Learning from God! If you only learn from God, then do you not believe the bible completely? I'm a bit confused on that point.
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Post by reborn on Dec 4, 2019 18:21:11 GMT -5
Yes! I am exclusively taught by God only when it comes to my God! I have found others whom I have great fellowship with because they have been taught by God as well. It is the only safe way to be when it comes to correct doctrine. The Bible itself uses the word “ Noble” when a individual seeks the scriptures to see if things be so! I search scripture, and pray diligently to have God open up/ reveal them to me. Yes! I own it! I’m exclusively Learning from God! If you only learn from God, then do you not believe the bible completely? I'm a bit confused on that point. The bible is the written word of God!
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Post by Annan on Dec 4, 2019 18:24:08 GMT -5
Yes! I am exclusively taught by God only when it comes to my God! I have found others whom I have great fellowship with because they have been taught by God as well. It is the only safe way to be when it comes to correct doctrine. The Bible itself uses the word “ Noble” when a individual seeks the scriptures to see if things be so! I search scripture, and pray diligently to have God open up/ reveal them to me. Yes! I own it! I’m exclusively Learning from God! In my opinion, that is how it should be. I do have a question for you, though. You say you have great fellowship with those taught by your god. What if your god teaches them something different than he teaches you? Has that happened? How do you reconcile that?
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Post by mountain on Dec 4, 2019 18:30:07 GMT -5
God is NOT the AUTHOR of confusion! Yes, I tried really tried to read this piece. NOPE! I like my truth streamlined for me- God does that for all! He will speak a few words of TRUTH and a individual will have revelation revealed immediately. God has spoiled me! I have zero fear of my beliefs being challenged, as I know exactly where my beliefs come from. I used to be a unbeliever, and God in his mercy and kindness delivers me and taught me truth! A individual could be led down all kinds of paths of confusion and be all the worse for it. I KNOW where help comes from, and as I suggested, go to the source! BTW... Do you know that this is a resource site for Seventh Day Adventist’s? Is this your religion?So you decided to read the link after I challenged you on your advice to others not to read it? Good on you, mate! No I am not a Seventh Day Adventist and yes I knew it was a SDA article. I suspect that Walter Veith had a lot to do with it. I have a lot of respect for his historicity and examining of facts, although he appears to have swallowed the SDA line on what the Sabbath is. He is still a valuable character imo. Now instead of attacking the messenger, would you like to make an attempt to competently rebuff what is written about the trinity origins in the article? FWIW if we were to reject any piece written by people from any denomination, we would not find agreement in any of them because they are all fallible. There's wheat and chaff in them all, including the Scafflix. This is where we need discernment.
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Post by Annan on Dec 4, 2019 18:30:27 GMT -5
If Jesus was begat by God the Father to make him the begotten son, how can he be God. How can Jesus be God if he was created by God. They couldn't have all existed forever if God created Jesus. God would have had to exist before Jesus in order to create him, right? How it was explained to me... When God says "Let us make man in our image." he was referring to himself, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Impregnating Mary was God's way of Jesus being born of man. Growing up 2x2, I was taught Jesus has always existed.
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Post by reborn on Dec 4, 2019 18:36:09 GMT -5
Yes! I am exclusively taught by God only when it comes to my God! I have found others whom I have great fellowship with because they have been taught by God as well. It is the only safe way to be when it comes to correct doctrine. The Bible itself uses the word “ Noble” when a individual seeks the scriptures to see if things be so! I search scripture, and pray diligently to have God open up/ reveal them to me. Yes! I own it! I’m exclusively Learning from God! In my opinion, that is how it should be. I do have a question for you, though. You say you have great fellowship with those taught by your god. What if your god teaches them something different than he teaches you? Has that happened? How do you reconcile that? I have heard things directly spoken that contradicted what God had taught me. In this case, I go back to God and pray diligently to him for a direct answer from him. When he answers me, I accept that as truth. He’s never failed me. I then will pray that the other individual receive revelation from God on whatever it is. God is so kind to redirect and correct us. Sometimes it takes going through a experience where we have no choice to to desperately seek his face.
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2019 18:37:38 GMT -5
If Jesus was begat by God the Father to make him the begotten son, how can he be God. How can Jesus be God if he was created by God. They couldn't have all existed forever if God created Jesus. God would have had to exist before Jesus in order to create him, right? How it was explained to me... When God says "Let us make man in our image." he was referring to himself, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Impregnating Mary was God's way of Jesus being born of man. Growing up 2x2, I was taught Jesus has always existed. Really? I was never taught Jesus always existed. I think it's amazing just how different the things that are taught in different regions. He was our elder brother, completely human, but also divine because he was made perfect by God. And, if we followed in his footsteps, we too could be like him. But if it's true that Jesus was created by God, that means that God came first into existence. You can't create someone else if you yourself hasn't been created yet.
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Post by reborn on Dec 4, 2019 18:44:01 GMT -5
So you decided to read the link after I challenged you on your advice to others not to read it? Good on you, mate! No I am not a Seventh Day Adventist and yes I knew it was a SDA article. I suspect that Walter Veith had a lot to do with it. I have a lot of respect for his historicity and examining of facts, although he appears to have swallowed the SDA line on what the Sabbath is. He is still a valuable character imo. Now instead of attacking the messenger, would you like to make an attempt to competently rebuff what is written about the trinity origins in the article? FWIW if we were to reject any piece written by people from any denomination, we would not find agreement in any of them because they are all fallible. There's wheat and chaff in them all, including the Scafflix. This is where we need discernment. You are incorrect- I tried shuffling thru it before I ever replied to it. No thank you on rebuffing all of that. I take my information short, sweet and truth! I’m spoiled!
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