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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2020 17:09:48 GMT -5
Both Paul and James show two different sides to a coin, Paul shows the front side/Faith! and James shows the the back side/Works! of the same coin. There is NO contradiction, both sides are part of the same coin.
Faith is before God. Works is before man. Only one side is your salvation!. That is a FAITH that actually Works!. FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 2, 2020 17:18:04 GMT -5
Faith is before God. Works is before man. Only one side is your salvation!. That is a FAITH that actually Works!. FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. EPHESIANS 2:8-9
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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2020 17:34:01 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. EPHESIANS 2:8-9 ** That's Paul one side of the coin that he is teaching... James the apostle showed the other side of the coin FAITH without WORKS is A dead FAITH. There are TWO sides on a coin, the front and the back side. Between Paul and James we see a complete picture of our Salvation.
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 17:36:46 GMT -5
Faith is before God. Works is before man. Only one side is your salvation!. That is a FAITH that actually Works!. FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Only one side saves! “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work —whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you—because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins.It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. - Leviticus 16:29-31 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus16:29-31&version=NIV
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Post by mountain on Jan 2, 2020 17:51:20 GMT -5
Faith is before God. Works is before man. Only one side is your salvation!. That is a FAITH that actually Works!. FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 2, 2020 18:06:39 GMT -5
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. EPHESIANS 2:8-9 ** That's Paul one side of the coin that he is teaching... James the apostle showed the other side of the coin FAITH without WORKS is A dead FAITH. There are TWO sides on a coin, the front and the back side. Between Paul and James we see a complete picture of our Salvation. The works James speaks about is before mankind. It has nothing to do with salvation’s grace.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 2, 2020 18:09:46 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! Grace of salvation behooves us to works. Works do not enter into the grace of salvation, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST!
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 18:29:09 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. - Romans 4:1-5 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-5&version=NIV“This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work —whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you—because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins.It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. - Leviticus 16:29-31 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus16:29-31&version=NIV
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 18:33:13 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Romans 10:1-4 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:1-4&version=NIV
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 18:35:09 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. - Romans 5:17-18 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:17-18&version=NIV
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 18:36:27 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, - Romans 3:22 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:22&version=NIV
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 18:37:51 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. - Titus 3:4-7 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus3:4-7&version=NIV
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 18:40:33 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” - Acts 4:11-12 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts4:11-12&version=NIV
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 18:42:26 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” - Galatians 3:10-13 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:10-13&version=NIV
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 18:44:44 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christand be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. - Philippians 3:8-9 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians3:8-9&version=NIV
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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2020 19:27:56 GMT -5
FAITH and works are before God and men. Salvation is to have Both FAITH and Works must go together. Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! (A coup de grâce is a death blow to end the suffering of a severely wounded person or animal.) Thanks, again... mountain. Well, let STR and Chuck believe Faith alone SAVES them without works to prove their faith. James! explained so clearly and beautifully, he gave a complete picture of TRUE Salvation.
James 2:14-26 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
~~ I wish God had preserved more of James writings and understanding of the Scriptures! simply Amazingly, awesomely and fantastically good.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 2, 2020 19:39:19 GMT -5
Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! (A coup de grâce is a death blow to end the suffering of a severely wounded person or animal.) Thanks, again... mountain. Well, let STR and Chuck believe Faith alone SAVES them without works to prove their faith. James! explained so clearly and beautifully, he gave a complete picture of TRUE Salvation.
James 2:14-26 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
~~ I wish God had preserved more of James writings and understanding of the Scriptures! simply Amazingly, awesomely and fantastically good.
James is talking about showing our faith before man. Not God LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST! We show other men we have faith in Jesus Christ by our works. We do NOT WORK FOR SALVATION, we can NOT PUT GOD IN DEBT TO US.
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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2020 20:02:58 GMT -5
Thanks, again... mountain. Well, let STR and Chuck believe Faith alone SAVES them without works to prove their faith. James! explained so clearly and beautifully, he gave a complete picture of TRUE Salvation.
James 2:14-26 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
~~ I wish God had preserved more of James writings and understanding of the Scriptures! simply Amazingly, awesomely and fantastically good.
James is talking about showing our faith before man. Not God LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST! We show other men we have faith in Jesus Christ by our works. We do NOT WORK FOR SALVATION, we can NOT PUT GOD IN DEBT TO US. That is NOT what James was saying! we WORKS for Salvation. Salvation is FREE gift God and Christ who died for our sins, no human being can pay or Redeem for our own sins. Good Works follows AFTER we SAVED.... Good works are like laying up points in heaven when we receive/counting our rewards.
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Post by Grant on Jan 2, 2020 20:09:30 GMT -5
James is talking about showing our faith before man. Not God LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST! We show other men we have faith in Jesus Christ by our works. We do NOT WORK FOR SALVATION, we can NOT PUT GOD IN DEBT TO US. That is NOT what James was saying! we WORKS for Salvation. Salvation is FREE gift God and Christ who died for our sins, no human being can pay or Redeem for our own sins. Good Works follows AFTER we SAVED.... Good works are like laying up points in heaven when we receive/counting our rewards.
And what good works do you do to lay up points in heaven, Nathan? Do I hear you say you don't smoke, don't drink alcohol, don't keep company with the wrong kind of people and all the don'ts. Reminds me of a certain verse in the Bible. Or is doing good works spreading Dr Stranges Venus Gospel on here?
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Post by chuck on Jan 2, 2020 20:29:53 GMT -5
James is talking about showing our faith before man. Not God LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST! We show other men we have faith in Jesus Christ by our works. We do NOT WORK FOR SALVATION, we can NOT PUT GOD IN DEBT TO US. That is NOT what James was saying! we WORKS for Salvation. Salvation is FREE gift God and Christ who died for our sins, no human being can pay or Redeem for our own sins. Good Works follows AFTER we SAVED.... Good works are like laying up points in heaven when we receive/counting our rewards.
Right, so Good works has no contribution to our salvation at all. Good works Justify our Faith before Man! not God. As James say's. "You see". Lets see if mountain jumps on you for suggesting one can be saved before the end. Which is interesting because if one is saved how can you become unsaved? Kinda goes against eternal and promises huh!.
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Post by mountain on Jan 2, 2020 21:32:13 GMT -5
Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! Grace of salvation behooves us to works. Works do not enter into the grace of salvation, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST! Okay, please bless us with your understanding of what : 1) Grace actually is (from the Bible)? 2) What works are?
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Post by nathan on Jan 2, 2020 21:34:01 GMT -5
That is NOT what James was saying! we WORKS for Salvation. Salvation is FREE gift God and Christ who died for our sins, no human being can pay or Redeem for our own sins. Good Works follows AFTER we SAVED.... Good works are like laying up points in heaven when we receive/counting our rewards.
And what good works do you do to lay up points in heaven, Nathan? Do I hear you say you don't smoke, don't drink alcohol, don't keep company with the wrong kind of people and all the don'ts. Reminds me of a certain verse in the Bible. Or is doing good works spreading Dr Stranges Venus Gospel on here? Good works as Jesus had taught are be light and salt in this dark world, help the needy, be kind and spread the gospel of Christ to those who we come in contact with... Read Matthew chapters 5-7 Jesus words/teaching Matthew 7:9-16 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
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Post by mountain on Jan 2, 2020 21:45:34 GMT -5
Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.What does Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. - Romans 4:1-5 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-5&version=NIV“This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work —whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you—because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins. It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. - Leviticus 16:29-31 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus16:29-31&version=NIVChuck you do realise that believing God is actually a 'work' of righteousness? It is not a work of the flesh. We have this discussion time and again on this board. People yack on about 'works' but don't realise that works of obedience to the word of God is something totally different to works of the flesh. Those things highlighted above are examples of the works that God is looking for. We do not boast in them but we are justified by them, etc. Faith without these sortb of Works is dead. Nathan is absolutely right. Bang on the nail.
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Post by mountain on Jan 2, 2020 21:46:59 GMT -5
Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. - Romans 10:1-4 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:1-4&version=NIVAnd?
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Post by mountain on Jan 2, 2020 21:49:58 GMT -5
Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. - Romans 5:17-18 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:17-18&version=NIVYou DO believe that one MUST believe in that one MAN! And you do understand what believing in that one man actually means? Nathan resoundingly triumphs as stated!
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Post by mountain on Jan 2, 2020 21:52:36 GMT -5
Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, - Romans 3:22 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:22&version=NIVTo understand such statements you have to understand what in practice they actually mean. We can all have our different understandings of faith and belief.
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Post by mountain on Jan 2, 2020 21:54:45 GMT -5
Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” - Acts 4:11-12 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts4:11-12&version=NIVExplain HOW salvation is found in Jesus? A proper understanding of this may draw your closer to Nathan's vision?
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Post by mountain on Jan 2, 2020 21:56:34 GMT -5
Chuck/Grats must surely recognise that the Bible must be viewed/reconciled in its entirety, rather than extracting a reference or two to support a misguided interpretation. Once more Nathan delivers the coup des gras! What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christand be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. - Philippians 3:8-9 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians3:8-9&version=NIVAgain, a proper understanding of faith may have you succumbing to Nathan's view?
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