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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 9:10:25 GMT -5
Spin it how you like Chuck. We are to be followers of Christ. Period. We are to be ensamples of Christ. If you want to follow Jesus just look to his example in all things. Jesus did not believe in a 'human works' gospel. The man Christ Jesus tells us that of himself he is NOTHING! All that he spake and all the deeds or works that he did were not his own but were the Father's, who worked in and through him. It is exactly the same for true followers of Christ. Of ourselves we are nothing. Our own works are absolutely nothing. Jesus did all that God his Father had prepared in advance for him to do. We likewise are CLEARLY told that we are called to do the works of God in our lives. It's the same way, the same truth and the same life that Jesus followed, which leads us to the Father. Why is it that every time it is pointed out that truly believing in Jesus means following him in his way, his truth and his life, we get instant rebellion from the 'free gifters?' Jesus lived a life of faith in his God. He submitted to God's will 100%, allowing God to do many great works through him. He didn't yack on about God's grace being a free gift and there was no need for works. The Apostle John tells us that Jesus was FULL of Grace and Truth (God's grace and truth). It was that God given grace that empowered Jesus to do all the works that God had planned for him to do. Yes Jesus tells us his own works availed for nothing because he said that of himself he could do nothing and could only achieve anything by the Father's will and help. Salvation is NOT a one off event. It is a life's journey, however long or short that may be. Whatever way you look at it, works are an essential part of that journey. But it is God's works, not our own. Just look at Jesus to see how it 'works!' Here's the verses in Ephesians 2 yet again. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are created in Christ Jesus to do good WORKS which God hath ordained for us to do. He grants us grace to enable us to do them. You can put up all the arguments that you want against works. Spin it how you will, but whatever you say, the truth of the matter remains....works is an essential part of salvation. It is what we are called in Christ Jesus to do. I didn't spin anything. Go research it and come back and explain how the work for salvation isn't finished!. Hebrews 10:11-14 is a good start. Also research the practices on the day of Atonement, it backs up Hebrews 10:11-14. You get instant rebellion because you trample on the blood of the lamb when you say works are a necessity,essential ect ect for salvation. If they are why did Jesus sit down?, why did he say "it is finished"?, but according to you its not finished and its on going and we have to do good works to attain it because faith alone isn't enough, the blood of the lamb didn't quite do the job, just needs some good works to finish it off!. Your hung up on verse 10. I agree with verse 10 and I assume all christians would, but it doesnt save you. Verse 8-9 explain why. As do all the other verses I mentioned yesterday. You blew past verses 8-9 and then dropped this pealer "You can put up all the arguments that you want against works. Spin it how you will, but whatever you say, the truth of the matter remains....works is an essential part of salvation" No one blew past verses 8-9. They were explained in the context of things. Why do you FLEE from the example of the man Christ Jesus? Are you suggesting his life of service to God wasn't works orientated? Why do you think God filled him with grace? Our faith is justified by our works. Without this justification our faith is dead. Only a living faith allows us to be saved. Grace saves us THROUGH faith, but that faith must be justified by our works. Grace doesn't save us through a dead faith. Instead of looking for technical twists and turns, to gain wriggle room, just simply look at the life of Christ for the right example to follow. But NO, you'll want anything but that! We are kept by the power of God (grace) Through faith unto salvation.
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Post by chuck on Oct 25, 2019 9:11:47 GMT -5
Chuck opined: If are works necessary its not a gift. Necessary works is works salvation.
Please keep in mind this is your interpretation and is being used by you to try and justify your viewpoint. Nothing else! God owes us nothing. By virtue of our fallen human nature we deserve the just punishment of God. Period. God in his great love and mercy does not desire that anyone should perish. He has designed a way that allows us to be redeemed. God was under no obligation to do this. It is a plan or gesture of his own free will. Keep that in mind. We need his grace to allow us to do his will. God gives us this. It is a gift. We cannot buy it. It is dependent upon the love and mercy of God. No one can do the will of God but that God gives them grace to do it. The whole purpose of our calling in Christ Jesus is to follow Jesus in his way, his truth and his life, which leads us to the Father. Without God's gift of grace we cannot do this. God does not have to impart his grace to us. But we need it to do the good works that God has ordained for us to do. Our good works are the light of the Christ within. They are an essential part of salvation. No getting away from it. Interpretate this. Romans 11:5-6 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. No good works are not essential to salvation. Did you even bother to look at the Abraham references I made in Romans?. 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, So righteous before circumcised, before Isaac, do you know when Abraham was declared righteous?, Genisis 15:6. when he BELIEVED!!, before all his good works!.
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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 9:14:45 GMT -5
Chuck opined: If are works necessary its not a gift. Necessary works is works salvation.
Please keep in mind this is your interpretation and is being used by you to try and justify your viewpoint. Nothing else! God owes us nothing. By virtue of our fallen human nature we deserve the just punishment of God. Period. God in his great love and mercy does not desire that anyone should perish. He has designed a way that allows us to be redeemed. God was under no obligation to do this. It is a plan or gesture of his own free will. Keep that in mind. We need his grace to allow us to do his will. God gives us this. It is a gift. We cannot buy it. It is dependent upon the love and mercy of God. No one can do the will of God but that God gives them grace to do it. The whole purpose of our calling in Christ Jesus is to follow Jesus in his way, his truth and his life, which leads us to the Father. Without God's gift of grace we cannot do this. God does not have to impart his grace to us. But we need it to do the good works that God has ordained for us to do. Our good works are the light of the Christ within. They are an essential part of salvation. No getting away from it. Interpretate this. Romans 11:5-6 New International Version (NIV) 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnantA)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28215A" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> chosen by grace.B)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28215B" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works;C)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28216C" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> if it were, grace would no longer be grace. No good works are not essential to salvation. Did you even bother to look at the Abraham references I made in Romans?. Romans 4:9-11 New International Version (NIV) 9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised?A)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28032A" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.B)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28032B" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.C)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28034C" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> So then, he is the fatherD)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28034D" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> of all who believeE)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28034E" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. So righteous before circumcised, before Isaac, do you know when Abraham was declared righteous?, Genisis 15:6. when he BELIEVED!!, before all his good works!. Sorry I don't speak in tongues, nor do I have the ability to translate this gibberish. Why do you insist on fleeing from the command to follow Christ in his example? It's like presenting a cross to Count Dracula!
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Post by chuck on Oct 25, 2019 9:29:35 GMT -5
Interpretate this. Romans 11:5-6 New International Version (NIV) 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnantA)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28215A" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> chosen by grace.B)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28215B" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works;C)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28216C" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> if it were, grace would no longer be grace. No good works are not essential to salvation. Did you even bother to look at the Abraham references I made in Romans?. Romans 4:9-11 New International Version (NIV) 9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised?A)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28032A" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.B)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28032B" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.C)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28034C" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> So then, he is the fatherD)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28034D" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> of all who believeE)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28034E" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. So righteous before circumcised, before Isaac, do you know when Abraham was declared righteous?, Genisis 15:6. when he BELIEVED!!, before all his good works!. Sorry I don't speak in tongues, nor do I have the ability to translate this gibberish. Why do you insist on fleeing from the command to follow Christ in his example? It's like presenting a cross to Count Dracula! Ive fixed it. I haven't run from anything. I believe in good works. I just don't believe they save you as I cannot find any scripture that supports your narrative. There is a bucket load however warning against works salvation that you cannot explain away.
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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 9:39:03 GMT -5
In Romans 10 and 11 Paul is describing the difference between the former observances of the old Law which required human effort. This is the works that he is stating no longer apply. The coming of Christ brought in the age of grace, which superseded the OT law and its works based practices, etc. God gives us grace to follow Christ. We are led by the Holy Spirit to do the good works which God has ordained us to do, without following the works based ordinances of the old law. We no longer follow the works of the law but are led by God himself through his Holy Spirit to do his good works. Jesus fulfilled the law and also showed us how to live a grace filled life. He pointed out to us that the works people saw him do, were not his own, but were the Father's. He was given grace to do these works.
Whether during the age of the OT law, or during the subsequent age of grace, which is superior to the law, WORKS are essential. What people are confused by in the debates of salvation by works or by grace is this. The human based works of observing the old law no longer apply during the age of grace. We are now saved by the grace that God gives us through our faith in doing the good works that God has called us to do.
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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 9:42:59 GMT -5
Sorry I don't speak in tongues, nor do I have the ability to translate this gibberish. Why do you insist on fleeing from the command to follow Christ in his example? It's like presenting a cross to Count Dracula! Ive fixed it. I haven't run from anything. I believe in good works. I just don't believe they save you as I cannot find any scripture that supports your narrative. There is a bucket load however warning against works salvation that you cannot explain away. As usual Grats, you don't listen. Do you understand what 'works' actually are? God calls us into service. That service is to do the good works that he has called us to do. He provides us with grace to do his will. If you cannot see that in the scripture that I have provided, then you are quite simply blind, either wilfully or otherwise. What I have stated aligns with the life of Jesus Christ, something you cannot deny and flee from addressing.
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Post by chuck on Oct 25, 2019 9:50:05 GMT -5
mountain21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ - Matthew 7:21-22 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:21-22&version=NIVWhere, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. - Romans 3:27-28 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:27-28&version=NIVThe Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. - Hebrews 1:3 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:3&version=NIVhow shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. - Hebrews 2:3 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews2:3&version=NIVThen he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. - Hebrews 10:17-18 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews10:17-18&version=NIV28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” - Matthew 11:28-30 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew11:28-30&version=NIVThe jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved —you and your household.” - Acts 16:29-31 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts16:29-31&version=NIV
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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 10:00:39 GMT -5
mountain21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ - Matthew 7:21-22 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:21-22&version=NIVWhere, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. - Romans 3:27-28 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:27-28&version=NIVThe Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. - Hebrews 1:3 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:3&version=NIVhow shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. - Hebrews 2:3 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews2:3&version=NIVThen he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. - Hebrews 10:17-18 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews10:17-18&version=NIV28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” - Matthew 11:28-30 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew11:28-30&version=NIVThe jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved —you and your household.” - Acts 16:29-31 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts16:29-31&version=NIV And your point is? I have no quibble with these verses which are entirely consistent with my beliefs. We are on a salvation journey in which we are called to do the good works of God, which we were created in Christ Jesus to do. No matter which way you cut it Grats, works are an essential part of salvation. The old works of the law no longer apply, but the grace filled works that God calls us to do, most certainly apply. The salvation by works or by grace is something the theologians have made into a very confusing doctrinal mish mash, which bears little resemblance to the truth of the matter.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 25, 2019 10:59:28 GMT -5
I didn't spin anything. Go research it and come back and explain how the work for salvation isn't finished!. Hebrews 10:11-14 is a good start. Also research the practices on the day of Atonement, it backs up Hebrews 10:11-14. You get instant rebellion because you trample on the blood of the lamb when you say works are a necessity,essential ect ect for salvation. If they are why did Jesus sit down?, why did he say "it is finished"?, but according to you its not finished and its on going and we have to do good works to attain it because faith alone isn't enough, the blood of the lamb didn't quite do the job, just needs some good works to finish it off!. Your hung up on verse 10. I agree with verse 10 and I assume all christians would, but it doesnt save you. Verse 8-9 explain why. As do all the other verses I mentioned yesterday. You blew past verses 8-9 and then dropped this pealer "You can put up all the arguments that you want against works. Spin it how you will, but whatever you say, the truth of the matter remains....works is an essential part of salvation" No one blew past verses 8-9. They were explained in the context of things. Why do you FLEE from the example of the man Christ Jesus? Are you suggesting his life of service to God wasn't works orientated? Why do you think God filled him with grace? Our faith is justified by our works. Without this justification our faith is dead. Only a living faith allows us to be saved. Grace saves us THROUGH faith, but that faith must be justified by our works. Grace doesn't save us through a dead faith. Instead of looking for technical twists and turns, to gain wriggle room, just simply look at the life of Christ for the right example to follow. But NO, you'll want anything but that! We are kept by the power of God (grace) Through faith unto salvation. Your lack of understanding is because you do not believe the record the Father of his Son, you are chalking the Father a liar plus you aren’t a true believer in Christ Jesus, thus the witness is not within , according to I John 5:10. “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. Verse 11: “And this is the record, that God hath GIVEN to us ETERNAL LIFE, and this LIFE IS IN HIS SON!”
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 25, 2019 11:08:36 GMT -5
mountain21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ - Matthew 7:21-22 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:21-22&version=NIVWhere, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. - Romans 3:27-28 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:27-28&version=NIVThe Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. - Hebrews 1:3 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:3&version=NIVhow shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. - Hebrews 2:3 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews2:3&version=NIVThen he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. - Hebrews 10:17-18 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews10:17-18&version=NIV28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” - Matthew 11:28-30 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew11:28-30&version=NIVThe jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved —you and your household.” - Acts 16:29-31 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts16:29-31&version=NIV And your point is? I have no quibble with these verses which are entirely consistent with my beliefs. We are on a salvation journey in which we are called to do the good works of God, which we were created in Christ Jesus to do. No matter which way you cut it Grats, works are an essential part of salvation. The old works of the law no longer apply, but the grace filled works that God calls us to do, most certainly apply. The salvation by works or by grace is something the theologians have made into a very confusing doctrinal mish mash, which bears little resemblance to the truth of the matter. www.gotquestions.org/good-works-salvation.html
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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 11:09:17 GMT -5
No one blew past verses 8-9. They were explained in the context of things. Why do you FLEE from the example of the man Christ Jesus? Are you suggesting his life of service to God wasn't works orientated? Why do you think God filled him with grace? Our faith is justified by our works. Without this justification our faith is dead. Only a living faith allows us to be saved. Grace saves us THROUGH faith, but that faith must be justified by our works. Grace doesn't save us through a dead faith. Instead of looking for technical twists and turns, to gain wriggle room, just simply look at the life of Christ for the right example to follow. But NO, you'll want anything but that! We are kept by the power of God (grace) Through faith unto salvation. Your lack of understanding is because you do not believe the record the Father of his Son, you are chalking the Father a liar plus you aren’t a true believer in Christ Jesus, thus the witness is not within , according to I John 5:10. “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.Verse 11: “And this is the record, that God hath GIVEN to us ETERNAL LIFE, and this LIFE IS IN HIS SON!” By your (mis)interpretation obviously. It is because I believe the record that God gives us of his son that distances myself from you. You love the man made extras which I reject. (Virgs)
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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 11:18:56 GMT -5
And your point is? I have no quibble with these verses which are entirely consistent with my beliefs. We are on a salvation journey in which we are called to do the good works of God, which we were created in Christ Jesus to do. No matter which way you cut it Grats, works are an essential part of salvation. The old works of the law no longer apply, but the grace filled works that God calls us to do, most certainly apply. The salvation by works or by grace is something the theologians have made into a very confusing doctrinal mish mash, which bears little resemblance to the truth of the matter. www.gotquestions.org/good-works-salvation.htmlShaz, I invite you to do full studies of Romans 10 and 11 as well as Ephesians 2, the whole chapters, and you will see that what Paul is writing to the Romans and the Ephesians about, during this transitional period, is the former works (keeping of the old practices and ordinances) of the OT law in light of the superior age of grace where God now provides his grace for the purpose of those created in Christ Jesus to do his good works. It's a very simple matter, made into a horrendous mess by wayward theologians, etc., resulting in a works v grace dispute which is lightyears away from what Paul was referring to. Of course, I expect the usual aversion, but there will be those looking on who will accept this invitation and will readily see exactly what Paul is referring to and why!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 25, 2019 11:20:15 GMT -5
Your lack of understanding is because you do not believe the record the Father of his Son, you are chalking the Father a liar plus you aren’t a true believer in Christ Jesus, thus the witness is not within , according to I John 5:10. “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.Verse 11: “And this is the record, that God hath GIVEN to us ETERNAL LIFE, and this LIFE IS IN HIS SON!” By your (mis)interpretation obviously. It is because I believe the record that God gives us of his son that distances myself from you. You love the man made extras which I reject. (Virgs) You blew right by the verse that is what record that the Father gave if his Son. You push back against what people say because you think they believe in the Trinity. I don’t just believe in the Trinity I believe what God has said. Works follow salvation!
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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 11:22:20 GMT -5
By your (mis)interpretation obviously. It is because I believe the record that God gives us of his son that distances myself from you. You love the man made extras which I reject. (Virgs) You blew right by the verse that is what record that the Father gave if his Son. You push back against what people say because you think they believe in the Trinity. I don’t just believe in the Trinity I believe what God has said. Works follow salvation! I know what you quoted and I know what I replied. In your hastiness you did not pause to absorb what I had written hence your erroneous outpouring! By the way, did you have Grats's permission to use his terminology!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 25, 2019 11:22:43 GMT -5
Shaz, I invite you to do full studies of Romans 10 and 11 as well as Ephesians 2, the whole chapters, and you will see that what Paul is writing to the Romans and the Ephesians about, during this transitional period, is the former works (keeping of the old practices and ordinances) of the OT law in light of the superior age of grace where God now provides his grace for the purpose of those created in Christ Jesus to do his good works. It's a very simple matter, made into a horrendous mess by wayward theologians, etc., resulting in a works v grace dispute which is lightyears away from what Paul was referring to. Of course, I expect the usual aversion, but there will be those looking on who will accept this invitation and will readily see exactly what Paul is referring to and why! I have studied ROMANS exceedingly. But you wouldn’t believe what I’ve found them to truly be saying! So I won’t bother. The only reason I say anything at all is because you are... TRAMPLING on The BLOOd of the LAMB! And I find that very, very sad!
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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 11:23:59 GMT -5
Shaz, I invite you to do full studies of Romans 10 and 11 as well as Ephesians 2, the whole chapters, and you will see that what Paul is writing to the Romans and the Ephesians about, during this transitional period, is the former works (keeping of the old practices and ordinances) of the OT law in light of the superior age of grace where God now provides his grace for the purpose of those created in Christ Jesus to do his good works. It's a very simple matter, made into a horrendous mess by wayward theologians, etc., resulting in a works v grace dispute which is lightyears away from what Paul was referring to. Of course, I expect the usual aversion, but there will be those looking on who will accept this invitation and will readily see exactly what Paul is referring to and why! I haste studied ROMANS exceedingly. But you wouldn’t believe what I’ve found them to truly be saying! So I won’t bother. The only reason I say anything at all is because you are... TRAMPLING on The BLOOd of the LAMB! And I find that very, very sad!
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Post by mountain on Oct 25, 2019 11:25:01 GMT -5
I haste studied ROMANS exceedingly. But you wouldn’t believe what I’ve found them to truly be saying! So I won’t bother. The only reason I say anything at all is because you are... TRAMPLING on The BLOOd of the LAMB! And I find that very, very sad! Yes Shaz…..I believe you!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 25, 2019 12:01:46 GMT -5
Yes Shaz…..I believe you! What are the works you think will give you salvation?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 25, 2019 12:03:07 GMT -5
You blew right by the verse that is what record that the Father gave if his Son. You push back against what people say because you think they believe in the Trinity. I don’t just believe in the Trinity I believe what God has said. Works follow salvation! I know what you quoted and I know what I replied. In your hastiness you did not pause to absorb what I had written hence your erroneous outpouring! By the way, did you have Grats's permission to use his terminology! What terminology?
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Post by snow on Oct 25, 2019 14:00:49 GMT -5
I know what you quoted and I know what I replied. In your hastiness you did not pause to absorb what I had written hence your erroneous outpouring! By the way, did you have Grats's permission to use his terminology! What terminology? I think he's referring to 'you blew right by the verse' phrase that chuck said. I'm not sure why he thinks Chuck is grats/gratu, though. Chuck is far more articulate.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 25, 2019 15:47:49 GMT -5
I think he's referring to 'you blew right by the verse' phrase that chuck said. I'm not sure why he thinks Chuck is grats/gratu, though. Chuck is far more articulate. Oh! I didn’t realize that Chuck has said that! I was perplexed that Mountain answered and stressed the other things but seemed to not even note the verse Ud ended up my post with! 🥴
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Post by mountain on Oct 26, 2019 2:06:24 GMT -5
I know what you quoted and I know what I replied. In your hastiness you did not pause to absorb what I had written hence your erroneous outpouring! By the way, did you have Grats's permission to use his terminology! What terminology? Right at the start of your post I quoted.
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Post by mountain on Oct 26, 2019 2:09:02 GMT -5
Yes Shaz…..I believe you! What are the works you think will give you salvation? I understand you are or were employed. You were called into service by your employer. If you didn't do the work your employer hired you to do, would you expect him/her to pay you? Start reading the parables that Jesus used in this context. Start reading the appropriate references made by Jesus, Paul, et al. There's plenty there.
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Post by nathan on Oct 26, 2019 8:19:14 GMT -5
What are the works you think will give you salvation? I understand you are or were employed. You were called into service by your employer. If you didn't do the work your employer hired you to do, would you expect him/her to pay you? Start reading the parables that Jesus used in this context. Start reading the appropriate references made by Jesus, Paul, et al. There's plenty there. Salvation is like making 5 years car or mortgage 30 yrs house payments as long you keep making payments every month then you can drive the car or live in the house, but if for some reasons you can't/refuse to make the payment for 3 months then the bank will give you written notice and they will take back the car, the house.
We must work almost every day to make money so we can make the payments. Salvation is FREE but works and commitment must follow to the end of the term/life. Jesus said in Matthew 24, "He that ENDURES unto the END shall be SAVED."
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 26, 2019 9:01:39 GMT -5
What are the works you think will give you salvation? I understand you are or were employed. You were called into service by your employer. If you didn't do the work your employer hired you to do, would you expect him/her to pay you? Start reading the parables that Jesus used in this context. Start reading the appropriate references made by Jesus, Paul, et al. There's plenty there. I believe what Jesus said about works of God. John 6:28-29. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered, and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Ephesians 2 says Faith is a gift.. When the Father came to Jesus to heal his child , Jesus said, O ye of little of faith... The Father then CRIED “Lord! Help thou mine unbelief.” That explains the work that God has for us. Jesus said when he returns and finds a believer not fasting and praying, and treating his servants so badly. He would assign their rewards with the unbelievers. Watching and praying are the work that Jesus asks us to do. God asks us to work to believe on him whom he hath sent. No long detailed works expected. Other works we do follow salvation which is already bought and paid for. Free of charge!
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Post by chuck on Oct 26, 2019 9:59:51 GMT -5
In Romans 10 and 11 Paul is describing the difference between the former observances of the old Law which required human effort. This is the works that he is stating no longer apply. The coming of Christ brought in the age of grace, which superseded the OT law and its works based practices, etc. God gives us grace to follow Christ. We are led by the Holy Spirit to do the good works which God has ordained us to do, without following the works based ordinances of the old law. We no longer follow the works of the law but are led by God himself through his Holy Spirit to do his good works. Jesus fulfilled the law and also showed us how to live a grace filled life. He pointed out to us that the works people saw him do, were not his own, but were the Father's. He was given grace to do these works. Whether during the age of the OT law, or during the subsequent age of grace, which is superior to the law, WORKS are essential. What people are confused by in the debates of salvation by works or by grace is this. The human based works of observing the old law no longer apply during the age of grace. We are now saved by the grace that God gives us through our faith in doing the good works that God has called us to do. Oh so God's grace was different in the old testament? He didn't require good works then but does now?. Abraham was justified when he believed, before all his good works, justified before lifetime of good works!. Why is God's grace different today?. Why does it require a life time of works for salvation today but not in Abraham's day?. Your dismissal of works salvation teaching due to being old testament law is rediculous. Are you suggesting we don't do law based works today?. We do it every day. Even our good works are sin, even if you do it for the right reason it is pride, which is sin!.
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Post by chuck on Oct 26, 2019 10:07:11 GMT -5
mountain21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ - Matthew 7:21-22 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew7:21-22&version=NIVWhere, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. - Romans 3:27-28 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:27-28&version=NIVThe Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. - Hebrews 1:3 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:3&version=NIVhow shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. - Hebrews 2:3 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews2:3&version=NIVThen he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. - Hebrews 10:17-18 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews10:17-18&version=NIV28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” - Matthew 11:28-30 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew11:28-30&version=NIVThe jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved —you and your household.” - Acts 16:29-31 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts16:29-31&version=NIV And your point is? I have no quibble with these verses which are entirely consistent with my beliefs. We are on a salvation journey in which we are called to do the good works of God, which we were created in Christ Jesus to do. No matter which way you cut it Grats, works are an essential part of salvation. The old works of the law no longer apply, but the grace filled works that God calls us to do, most certainly apply. The salvation by works or by grace is something the theologians have made into a very confusing doctrinal mish mash, which bears little resemblance to the truth of the matter. Again, Abraham was justified before his salvation journey. Please explain why? And why it is different today that we need a salvation journey?. This "doesnt apply to me attitude" has me baffled. Every thing in the bible is relevant to us today.
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Post by chuck on Oct 26, 2019 10:13:19 GMT -5
Your lack of understanding is because you do not believe the record the Father of his Son, you are chalking the Father a liar plus you aren’t a true believer in Christ Jesus, thus the witness is not within , according to I John 5:10. “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.Verse 11: “And this is the record, that God hath GIVEN to us ETERNAL LIFE, and this LIFE IS IN HIS SON!” By your (mis)interpretation obviously. It is because I believe the record that God gives us of his son that distances myself from you. You love the man made extras which I reject. (Virgs) "that distances myself from you". Is that the God given good works speaking?
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