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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 8, 2019 12:07:35 GMT -5
On a list for "Oregon and S. Idaho Staff Privileges for 2019-2020," Dean Bruer is scheduled to visit the Maroota NSW conv, Australian Workers Convention, Hong Kong, Maroota & Inland Visits during Jan 1-Feb 17, 2020.
This brings up some questions: Is it for Australia Workers conv for AU workers only (except Bruer frm OR will be there) or is it a worldwide workesr conv.
Is the AU Workers Conv unusual? When was the last one held?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 8, 2019 16:31:53 GMT -5
Isn’t this around the same time for their regular conventions?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2019 20:22:53 GMT -5
Conventions in Australia start at Wilmington SA and Williams WA on Oct 31,2019 Then there is a Convention every weekend until the last one in Colac Vic on 9th Jan 2020. My guess is the Workers Convention would be held some time after the last Convention at Colac. I am not privy to inside information these days, don't know why, only a guess on my part. They do seem to be more clandestine in Australia now, like to keep it secret.
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jay
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Post by jay on Oct 8, 2019 21:27:47 GMT -5
Colac and 2nd Maroota are the same dates.
Workers Con Could be at either place , Your guess is as good as mine!!!!
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Post by nswelshman on Oct 9, 2019 0:16:28 GMT -5
Colac and 2nd Maroota are the same dates. Workers Con Could be at either place , Your guess is as good as mine!!!! It's at maroota.
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Post by snow on Oct 9, 2019 14:09:25 GMT -5
Conventions in Australia start at Wilmington SA and Williams WA on Oct 31,2019 Then there is a Convention every weekend until the last one in Colac Vic on 9th Jan 2020. My guess is the Workers Convention would be held some time after the last Convention at Colac. I am not privy to inside information these days, don't know why, only a guess on my part. They do seem to be more clandestine in Australia now, like to keep it secret. Why do they keep their conventions secret? Don't they want their church to grow? Or is it becoming more secret so media can't find out and interview the CSA survivors?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2019 18:01:44 GMT -5
Maroota makes sense. NSW has always been regarded as HQ for 2x2,s in Australia. And as pointed out Maroota and Colac are the last Conventions to be held in Australia each year. No doubt the rank and file will have to be well and truly out of the way, before discussions start. Workers meetings must always be held in secret. Will be interesting to see if when it is over that a communiqué is issued.
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janj
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Post by janj on Oct 9, 2019 19:00:09 GMT -5
Conventions in Australia start at Wilmington SA and Williams WA on Oct 31,2019 Then there is a Convention every weekend until the last one in Colac Vic on 9th Jan 2020. My guess is the Workers Convention would be held some time after the last Convention at Colac. I am not privy to inside information these days, don't know why, only a guess on my part. They do seem to be more clandestine in Australia now, like to keep it secret. Why do they keep their conventions secret? Don't they want their church to grow? Or is it becoming more secret so media can't find out and interview the CSA survivors? Are they secret? Convention dates are still printed and distributed.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 9, 2019 19:54:13 GMT -5
Why do they keep their conventions secret? Don't they want their church to grow? Or is it becoming more secret so media can't find out and interview the CSA survivors? Are they secret? Convention dates are still printed and distributed. It's not at all uncommon for strangers and media to come to conventions out of curiosity. There have also been occasional newspaper writings about conventions, and at least one I saw even had some pictures of the meeting tent and people lingering in the area.
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Post by snow on Oct 10, 2019 12:43:39 GMT -5
Why do they keep their conventions secret? Don't they want their church to grow? Or is it becoming more secret so media can't find out and interview the CSA survivors? Are they secret? Convention dates are still printed and distributed. It was mentioned that they were being secretive. I asked why? I don't know if they are or not, therefore the question.
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janj
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Post by janj on Oct 10, 2019 20:16:21 GMT -5
Are they secret? Convention dates are still printed and distributed. It was mentioned that they were being secretive. I asked why? I don't know if they are or not, therefore the question. Ok..my mistake, but I dont think they are-maybe this workers meeting is because it's not for the general population?
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 10, 2019 21:44:18 GMT -5
It was mentioned that they were being secretive. I asked why? I don't know if they are or not, therefore the question. Ok..my mistake, but I dont think they are-maybe this workers meeting is because it's not for the general population? I'm out on a limb here, but I have it from an attendee of one of these very large workers' meetings here in North America. The word was, "Changes are coming." And don't expect anyone to tell you anything more about it than that. Just be patient and in a couple of years you will notice something is indeed changing. It's hard for the workers to advise the friends that they are going to CHANGE some fundamental practice.
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Post by snow on Oct 11, 2019 13:11:27 GMT -5
It was mentioned that they were being secretive. I asked why? I don't know if they are or not, therefore the question. Ok..my mistake, but I dont think they are-maybe this workers meeting is because it's not for the general population? Possibly. I was never aware of the hierarchy when I was professing and more in touch with the group. When I came on here it was the first time I knew there were overseers etc. I should have when I think about it, but I just never really thought about it I guess.
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Post by Dennis J on Oct 12, 2019 2:20:20 GMT -5
Aww, let the poor workers alone in running their fellowship. The majority from my considerable experience with them, mean well. As to workers meetings, I was in a number of them from NW USA to Sweden. For me, they were nothing to “write home” about, being merely like other fellowship meetings. ‘Course if a worker did not “take part” at their worker meeting, that found itself a topic of conversation by other workers in attendance. Like someone failing to take part in their fellowship meeting.
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Post by nathan on Oct 12, 2019 7:46:38 GMT -5
Workers meetings are like the 2x2s Sunday morning meetings but just only the workers attending the meetings. Each take part in praying, singing hymns, pop corn testimonies and that is all. There is nothing secret about it. There are overseers workers meetings, that one I didn't attend they might discuss church issues, doctrine, and CSA updates in changing things like they had in Australia because of 60 min. TV show about the 2x2s CSA.
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Post by mountain on Oct 12, 2019 11:14:48 GMT -5
Workers meetings are like the 2x2s Sunday morning meetings but just only the workers attending the meetings. Each take part in praying, singing hymns, pop corn testimonies and that is all. There is nothing secret about it. There are overseers workers meetings, that one I didn't attend they might discuss church issues, doctrine, and CSA updates in changing things like they had in Australia because of 60 min. TV show about the 2x2s CSA. Are ordinary friends allowed to attend these Worker meetings? If not, why not? Would you, Nathan, as internet worker be allowed to attend these meetings? Again, if not, why not? Would I be allowed to attend these worker meetings?
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Post by nathan on Oct 12, 2019 15:34:37 GMT -5
Workers meetings are like the 2x2s Sunday morning meetings but just only the workers attending the meetings. Each take part in praying, singing hymns, pop corn testimonies and that is all. There is nothing secret about it. There are overseers workers meetings, that one I didn't attend they might discuss church issues, doctrine, and CSA updates in changing things like they had in Australia because of 60 min. TV show about the 2x2s CSA. Are ordinary friends allowed to attend these Worker meetings? If not, why not? Would you, Nathan, as internet worker be allowed to attend these meetings? Again, if not, why not? Would I be allowed to attend these worker meetings? ** I have seen one worker's parents sitting in the back roll at Boring convention workers meeting one year. Workers meetings almost exactly like the Sunday morning meetings So, you just hear workers give their 2-3 min. Testimonies. I would love to sit in the overseers workers meetings where they talk about changes in doctrine/Trinity/Jesus is NOT God, the ministry CSA and the fellowship fashions/cultures.
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Post by mountain on Oct 13, 2019 2:38:21 GMT -5
Are ordinary friends allowed to attend these Worker meetings? If not, why not? Would you, Nathan, as internet worker be allowed to attend these meetings? Again, if not, why not? Would I be allowed to attend these worker meetings? ** I have seen one worker's parents sitting in the back roll at Boring convention workers meeting one year. Workers meetings almost exactly like the Sunday morning meetings So, you just hear workers give their 2-3 min. Testimonies. I would love to sit in the overseers workers meetings where they talk about changes in doctrine/Trinity/Jesus is NOT God, the ministry CSA and the fellowship fashions/cultures. These things are all very well, Nathan, but they don't answer the questions that I raised. I think 'no' would be the correct answer to all three primary questions. However, this may very well be justifiable, but that is what makes the secondary questions of 'why not?' all the more important.
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Post by fixit on Oct 13, 2019 3:06:45 GMT -5
It would make sense for workers to meet separately from non-workers because they alone are dedicated to full-time ministry.
As a non-police officer, I wouldn't expect to be admitted to a police officers staff meeting.
Would you, mountain?
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Post by mountain on Oct 13, 2019 4:18:13 GMT -5
It would make sense for workers to meet separately from non-workers because they alone are dedicated to full-time ministry. As a non-police officer, I wouldn't expect to be admitted to a police officers staff meeting. Would you, mountain? I think your comparison needs some work? Workers and non-workers (friends) belong to the same fellowship. Why can't the ordinary members attend the workers (only) meetings? They are one and the same people. I can understand an outsider not being permitted, but the main thrust of my question was regarding the 'friends. A Police officers' staff meeting is usually open to people in that organisation who have an interest in the matters, practices to be discussed or exercised. Your answer appears to be attempting to justify the non-inclusion of associated members in one group with the non-inclusion of non-associated persons in another group?
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Post by Gene on Oct 13, 2019 7:57:31 GMT -5
It would make sense for workers to meet separately from non-workers because they alone are dedicated to full-time ministry. As a non-police officer, I wouldn't expect to be admitted to a police officers staff meeting. Would you, mountain? I think your comparison needs some work? Workers and non-workers (friends) belong to the same fellowship. Why can't the ordinary members attend the workers (only) meetings? They are one and the same people. I can understand an outsider not being permitted, but the main thrust of my question was regarding the 'friends. A Police officers' staff meeting is usually open to people in that organisation who have an interest in the matters, practices to be discussed or exercised. Your answer appears to be attempting to justify the non-inclusion of associated members in one group with the non-inclusion of non-associated persons in another group? And how about a police officers' Captains' meeting. Is it open to rank and file staff?
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Post by mountain on Oct 13, 2019 8:28:02 GMT -5
I think your comparison needs some work? Workers and non-workers (friends) belong to the same fellowship. Why can't the ordinary members attend the workers (only) meetings? They are one and the same people. I can understand an outsider not being permitted, but the main thrust of my question was regarding the 'friends. A Police officers' staff meeting is usually open to people in that organisation who have an interest in the matters, practices to be discussed or exercised. Your answer appears to be attempting to justify the non-inclusion of associated members in one group with the non-inclusion of non-associated persons in another group? And how about a police officers' Captains' meeting. Is it open to rank and file staff? It's certainly not open even to Captains in the Uk! The rank does not exist. I am looking for an 'explanation' at this stage as to why these workers meetings, which are clearly not just business meetings, but are apparently a form of religious service, are not open to the lay members of the group, if this is indeed the case? With 'Captains' meetings,' if such a thing exists, or any similar assembly, minutes are usually prepared and circulated afterwards, even to those not normally included in the meeting. Besides, why are we comparing 'gatherings not of this world,' with 'those of this world?' Let's not lose focus that the apparent exclusivity 'may' be justifiable. It is the 'why not' secondary question which is most important because that could justify that apparent exclusivity or it may condemn it?
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Post by Gene on Oct 13, 2019 8:47:14 GMT -5
And how about a police officers' Captains' meeting. Is it open to rank and file staff? It's certainly not open even to Captains in the Uk! The rank does not exist. I am looking for an 'explanation' at this stage as to why these workers meetings, which are clearly not just business meetings, but are apparently a form of religious service, are not open to the lay members of the group, if this is indeed the case? With 'Captains' meetings,' if such a thing exists, or any similar assembly, minutes are usually prepared and circulated afterwards, even to those not normally included in the meeting. Besides, why are we comparing 'gatherings not of this world,' with 'those of this world?' Let's not lose focus that the apparent exclusivity 'may' be justifiable. It is the 'why not' secondary question which is most important because that could justify that apparent exclusivity or it may condemn it? The F&W are an organization not dissimilar to a business enterprise. In the business enterprise from which I earn my living, there are multiple layers in the hierarchy -- for simplicity, let's say 4: Staff (45,000), Management (5,000), Executive Committee (20), and Board of Directors (8).
In my first-hand experience, meetings in the higher levels of the organization are conducted from which those in the lower levels of the organization are excluded, many of the deliberations of which are not made public. The ultimate decisions coming from those discussions are disseminated by whatever communication means are in use in the organization. It some cases it's a published policy document. In other cases it takes the form of "manager talking points" - in other words, word of mouth.
There also exist "gatherings" of the higher levels from which lower levels are excluded at which no policy discussions or deliberations occur, and from which no decisions are disseminated. Those gatherings are useful for social reasons - nurturing interpersonal relationships and a sense of "team."
Some workers' meetings are like the former (policy discussions). Some are like the latter (team building.) I've been in both.
Both have their place, and are justified in excluding non-workers.
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Post by mountain on Oct 13, 2019 8:55:24 GMT -5
Here is an agenda of what appears to be an early workers' meeting. Sorry, it is in Swiss. However is does reveal transparency back in the day!
Arbeiterversammlung, Luzern, 22. August 1901
Agenda
1) Allgemeines Willkommen
2) Protokoll der letzten Sitzung vom 14. Februar 1901
3) Finanzbericht (Iva Lottado)
4) Arbeiterquartier (Haus Reddi)
5) Zelt- und Hüttenmissionen (Mo Byle-Venju)
6) Bereitstellung von Pferden (Otto Giddjup)
7) Schwanz-Docking-Eisen usw. (Wirrain Smith)
8) A.O.C.B.
9) Uhrzeit und Datum der nächsten Sitzung
10) Abschlussgebet
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Post by mountain on Oct 13, 2019 9:05:06 GMT -5
It's certainly not open even to Captains in the Uk! The rank does not exist. I am looking for an 'explanation' at this stage as to why these workers meetings, which are clearly not just business meetings, but are apparently a form of religious service, are not open to the lay members of the group, if this is indeed the case? With 'Captains' meetings,' if such a thing exists, or any similar assembly, minutes are usually prepared and circulated afterwards, even to those not normally included in the meeting. Besides, why are we comparing 'gatherings not of this world,' with 'those of this world?' Let's not lose focus that the apparent exclusivity 'may' be justifiable. It is the 'why not' secondary question which is most important because that could justify that apparent exclusivity or it may condemn it? The F&W are an organization not dissimilar to a business enterprise. In the business enterprise from which I earn my living, there are multiple layers in the hierarchy --
Wait, wait, wait. There is no hierarchy! They are NOT an organisation!
for simplicity, let's say 4: Staff (45,000), Management (5,000), Executive Committee (20), and Board of Directors (8). In my first-hand experience, meetings in the higher levels of the organization are conducted from which those in the lower levels of the organization are excluded, many of the deliberations of which are not made public. The ultimate decisions coming from those discussions are disseminated by whatever communication means are in use in the organization. It some cases it's a published policy document. In other cases it takes the form of "manager talking points" - in other words, word of mouth. There also exist "gatherings" of the higher levels from which lower levels are excluded at which no policy discussions or deliberations occur, and from which no decisions are disseminated. Those gatherings are useful for social reasons - nurturing interpersonal relationships and a sense of "team." Some workers' meetings are like the former (policy discussions). Some are like the latter (team building.) I've been in both.
Both have their place, and are justified in excluding non-workers.
This is a good attempt at justification and in normal circumstances, where worldly hierarchy exists would be understood and acceptable. How does this gel with what Jesus said?
Matt. 23.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
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Post by nathan on Oct 13, 2019 9:20:15 GMT -5
** I have seen one worker's parents sitting in the back roll at Boring convention workers meeting one year. Workers meetings almost exactly like the Sunday morning meetings So, you just hear workers give their 2-3 min. Testimonies. I would love to sit in the overseers workers meetings where they talk about changes in doctrine/Trinity/Jesus is NOT God, the ministry CSA and the fellowship fashions/cultures. These things are all very well, Nathan, but they don't answer the questions that I raised. I think 'no' would be the correct answer to all three primary questions. However, this may very well be justifiable, but that is what makes the secondary questions of 'why not?' all the more important. In America, the U.S. citizens do NOT get to attend the White House chief of staff meetings. Why, NOT? They don't want the citizens to pass on sensitive, national security information to the public or they don't want other nations to know such and such information.
Just like a few whistle blowers exposed Mr. Trump using his authority as the President to dig dirt on Joe Bidden and his son shady business dealing in Ukraine and China to ruin his chance of becoming U.S. President in 2020 election.
And some of the ex-workers and myself have shared that the workers meetings are just like Sunday morning meetings, but only workers are speaking. They don't let the workers ask any questions about some problems, issue they are facing/dealing with. There is NOTHING hush, hush information to discuss in the workers meetings. They don't share any BIG secret information at the workers meetings, but they might share some sensitive information at the Overseers workers meetings.
The Australia overseer G. Snow might wants Dean B. and other visiting overseers to see the progress they have made with CSA mandatory rules for all workers to follow around the world, which was posted on TMB recently. No more sweeping under the carpet dealing with CSA within the 2x2s. ALL to encourage report all cases to the authority NOT to the workers or overseers.
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Post by mountain on Oct 13, 2019 9:39:05 GMT -5
These things are all very well, Nathan, but they don't answer the questions that I raised. I think 'no' would be the correct answer to all three primary questions. However, this may very well be justifiable, but that is what makes the secondary questions of 'why not?' all the more important. In America, the U.S. citizens do NOT get to attend the White House chief of staff meetings. Why, NOT? They don't want the citizens to pass on sensitive, national security information to the public or they don't want other nations to know such and such information.
Just like a few whistle blowers exposed Mr. Trump using his authority as the President to dig dirt on Joe Bidden and his son shady business dealing in Ukraine and China to ruin his chance of becoming U.S. President in 2020 election.
And some of the ex-workers and myself have shared that the workers meetings are just like Sunday morning meetings, but only workers are speaking. There is NOTHING hush, hush about the workers meetings. They don't share any BIG secret information at the workers meetings, but they might share some sensitive information at the Overseers workers meetings.
Nathan, you compare Worldly, Governmental, meetings, where sensitive, national security information is discussed, with, as one former worker states...the workers' meetings are little different to general fellowship meetings, and you state there is nothing hush, hush about them, with no secret information discussed at them. That's as unbalanced a comparison as you can get! Separating the full time ministry from the lay fellowship seems a bit of an anomaly? Now Overseers' Meetings? Are ordinary workers allowed to attend these? Edited to take account of your edit posted after my reply, viz: The Australia overseer G. Snow might wants Dean B. and other visiting overseers to see the progress they have made with CSA mandatory rule for all workers to take follow around the world was posted on TMB.
Why the big secret? These type of matters are openly discussed in other denominations and organisations.
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Post by Gene on Oct 13, 2019 9:40:34 GMT -5
The F&W are an organization not dissimilar to a business enterprise. In the business enterprise from which I earn my living, there are multiple layers in the hierarchy --
Wait, wait, wait. There is no hierarchy! They are NOT an organisation!
for simplicity, let's say 4: Staff (45,000), Management (5,000), Executive Committee (20), and Board of Directors (8). In my first-hand experience, meetings in the higher levels of the organization are conducted from which those in the lower levels of the organization are excluded, many of the deliberations of which are not made public. The ultimate decisions coming from those discussions are disseminated by whatever communication means are in use in the organization. It some cases it's a published policy document. In other cases it takes the form of "manager talking points" - in other words, word of mouth. There also exist "gatherings" of the higher levels from which lower levels are excluded at which no policy discussions or deliberations occur, and from which no decisions are disseminated. Those gatherings are useful for social reasons - nurturing interpersonal relationships and a sense of "team." Some workers' meetings are like the former (policy discussions). Some are like the latter (team building.) I've been in both.
Both have their place, and are justified in excluding non-workers.
This is a good attempt at justification and in normal circumstances, where worldly hierarchy exists would be understood and acceptable. How does this gel with what Jesus said?
Matt. 23.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
How does it gel with what Jesus said? Now you're debating with the wrong person. I'm not qualified to opine on that.
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