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Post by intelchips on Oct 27, 2019 7:51:58 GMT -5
While all here sort out if the Bible can be proven has anyone here studied the many sources that have argued the Gospel that came to be labeled “according to Mark” based “some” its content on the Epistles of Paul. Its seems there is some reliable evidence for such a claim. “Mark” is of course the earliest Gospel we have any surviving text or even any real evidence of. It was then used as a source by all the other Gospels now in the New Testament. So it’s particularly important to know if Mark was writing independently of Pauline tradition, or actually mythologizing it. Would it be more accurate to say that the Gospels that came to be labeled “according to Matthew” and “according to Luke” are redactions of Mark, clearly intended originally to replace Mark—within the communities that produced, preferred, or promoted them? Has anyone here came to the conclusion that only the Gospel that came to be labeled “according to John” actually used Mark the way other ancient authors used sources: writing his text in his own words, and simply following or altering what Mark said when it suited his purposes, or deliberately contradicting it to combat its message? I find that John likewise used Luke this way, but even more to deliberately contradict and thus combat its message. Matthew similarly tried to combat and thus “fix” Mark by extensively adding material that would permit “reinterpreting” Mark as advancing a Torah-observant gospel—the exact opposite of what Mark originally intended. Most of what Jesus is “known” for today comes from these later fabrications intended to override the original version of Jesus found in Mark. Mark gets mostly ignored. And yet his myth started it all, a lifetime after the fact, decades after Paul wrote his Epistles, which in turn were written decades after Jesus would supposedly have lived. And other than revelatory or theological data, and material not actually from or about Jesus, we actually can trace nothing in Mark to any sources prior. He appears to have created the whole thing. This is not a popular opinion in Biblical scholarship, which is still hung up on a desperate certainty that Mark must have been working from some collection of oral traditions; but that certainty is actually based on no evidence. And nothing based on no evidence should ever be treated as “certain.” What do you all think? Intelchips, I have never thought about it in those terms, but you have point.
I guess I was one of those who thought that those Biblical scholars were working on those oral traditions, dissecting the gospels & coming at least close to the right conclusions.
Of course, if Christianity were not such an all consuming interest in the Western world -there wouldn't have been such a need for scholars to feel like they had to figure it out in a realistic way to make sense of it all.
So maybe, intelchips you are on to something.
No one, scholars or anyone else, -attempts to dissect other religions to the extent that we do with Christianity.
You might be able to follow the research in: www.amazon.com/Homeric-Epics-Gospel-Mark/dp/0300172613/?ie=UTF8&tag=richardcarrier-20
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Post by snow on Oct 27, 2019 12:12:35 GMT -5
I guess we have two different understandings of what all knowing means. To me, all knowing would be a God that knew from the very start that the Jews wouldn't change and that he would have to have his son crucified to save them. I’m not sure he’s exactly all-knowing. Remember when God appeared to Abraham in his tents door he said they’d come down to see what the noise was all about in Sodom and Gomorrah. He had a good idea and he had plans to destroy them but if they’d proven to be more compassionate then he just might have listened a bit more before destroying them but no they proved how vile they’d become over the two angels Lit took in. Also the children of Israel had turned more then once and continued as they should until another failing so I’m not sure he was exactly sure they wouldn’t turn if they seen their Messiah as to reality for them, He does become more all-knowing when we lift up such concerns before him in a continual basis. I mean we may pray once or twice about children victims of CSA but if we don’t raise it continually, how is he going to know that not all is well about that? Well if he's not all knowing that explains a lot of things he didn't seem to know about in the bible. I have just heard all my life that the Christian God is omnipresent (everywhere), Omnipotent (all powerful) and Omniscient (all knowing). Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence
Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless.
Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past, present, and future. Nothing takes him by surprise. His knowledge is total. He knows all that there is to know and all that can be known.
Omnipresence means all present. This terms means that God is capable of being everywhere at the same time. It means his divine presence encompasses the whole universe. There is no location where he does not inhabit. This should not be confused with pantheism, which suggests that God is synonymous with the universe itself; instead, omnipresence indicates that God is distinct from the Universe, but inhabits the entirety of it. He is everywhere at once.study.com/academy/lesson/omnipotent-omniscient-and-omnipresent-god-definition-lesson-quiz.html
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Post by snow on Oct 27, 2019 12:14:08 GMT -5
I’m not sure he’s exactly all-knowing. Remember when God appeared to Abraham in his tents door he said they’d come down to see what the noise was all about in Sodom and Gomorrah. He had a good idea and he had plans to destroy them but if they’d proven to be more compassionate then he just might have listened a bit more before destroying them but no they proved how vile they’d become over the two angels Lit took in. Also the children of Israel had turned more then once and continued as they should until another failing so I’m not sure he was exactly sure they wouldn’t turn if they seen their Messiah as to reality for them, He does become more all-knowing when we lift up such concerns before him in a continual basis. I mean we may pray once or twice about children victims of CSA but if we don’t raise it continually, how is he going to know that not all is well about that? he is and he isn't because of free will he knows all the outcomes he just doesn't know 100% which we will choose.... That would be a redefining of the word Omniscient then. You can't be all knowing just some of the time according to the definition.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 27, 2019 15:05:58 GMT -5
I’m not sure he’s exactly all-knowing. Remember when God appeared to Abraham in his tents door he said they’d come down to see what the noise was all about in Sodom and Gomorrah. He had a good idea and he had plans to destroy them but if they’d proven to be more compassionate then he just might have listened a bit more before destroying them but no they proved how vile they’d become over the two angels Lit took in. Also the children of Israel had turned more then once and continued as they should until another failing so I’m not sure he was exactly sure they wouldn’t turn if they seen their Messiah as to reality for them, He does become more all-knowing when we lift up such concerns before him in a continual basis. I mean we may pray once or twice about children victims of CSA but if we don’t raise it continually, how is he going to know that not all is well about that? Well if he's not all knowing that explains a lot of things he didn't seem to know about in the bible. I have just heard all my life that the Christian God is omnipresent (everywhere), Omnipotent (all powerful) and Omniscient (all knowing). Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence
Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless.
Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past, present, and future. Nothing takes him by surprise. His knowledge is total. He knows all that there is to know and all that can be known.
Omnipresence means all present. This terms means that God is capable of being everywhere at the same time. It means his divine presence encompasses the whole universe. There is no location where he does not inhabit. This should not be confused with pantheism, which suggests that God is synonymous with the universe itself; instead, omnipresence indicates that God is distinct from the Universe, but inhabits the entirety of it. He is everywhere at once.study.com/academy/lesson/omnipotent-omniscient-and-omnipresent-god-definition-lesson-quiz.htmlI’m sure he Can be. But why would he need to be when he’s used mankind all these years to do his will? Wasn’t Jesus also one who could hold back his all-knowing abilities? Didn’t he say only the Fsther knee when certain things were to happen? He’s asked his chosen pet to do his will. They have to be in contact with him today know what his will is. So that’s the time when they are to pray for situations, people, disaster, children, wartimes, and other world affairs. It’s a way he wants us to be always in contact and ready for his will. Also this is how he’s to know all things. However, regardless of whether mankind holds their end up, God’s will will be done. He’ll use the willing and the stubborn to get it done. Just as the Potter makes some vessels to honor and some to dishonor.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 27, 2019 17:18:38 GMT -5
Well if he's not all knowing that explains a lot of things he didn't seem to know about in the bible. I have just heard all my life that the Christian God is omnipresent (everywhere), Omnipotent (all powerful) and Omniscient (all knowing). Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence
Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless.
Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past, present, and future. Nothing takes him by surprise. His knowledge is total. He knows all that there is to know and all that can be known.
Omnipresence means all present. This terms means that God is capable of being everywhere at the same time. It means his divine presence encompasses the whole universe. There is no location where he does not inhabit. This should not be confused with pantheism, which suggests that God is synonymous with the universe itself; instead, omnipresence indicates that God is distinct from the Universe, but inhabits the entirety of it. He is everywhere at once.study.com/academy/lesson/omnipotent-omniscient-and-omnipresent-god-definition-lesson-quiz.htmlI’m sure he Can be. But why would he need to be when he’s used mankind all these years to do his will? Wasn’t Jesus also one who could hold back his all-knowing abilities? Didn’t he say only the Fsther knee when certain things were to happen? He’s asked his chosen pet to do his will. They have to be in contact with him today know what his will is. So that’s the time when they are to pray for situations, people, disaster, children, wartimes, and other world affairs. It’s a way he wants us to be always in contact and ready for his will. Also this is how he’s to know all things. However, regardless of whether mankind holds their end up, God’s will will be done. He’ll use the willing and the stubborn to get it done. Just as the Potter makes some vessels to honor and some to dishonor. But isn't your explanation always been mankind's way of rationalizing something when there is doubtfulness & uncertainty of meaning or intention that we don't understand?
It has been mankind's need to know why certain things happen that has produced such a multitude of myths about gods & goddesses.
When there is ambiguity in something, we try to find a loophole that will satisfy our need to know.
Even more so when it sustains a religious belief.
When we need to believe something is true, it is amazing the twists and turns and actual contradictions our minds can conjure up in an attempt to make something seem reasonable.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 27, 2019 19:42:59 GMT -5
I’m sure he Can be. But why would he need to be when he’s used mankind all these years to do his will? Wasn’t Jesus also one who could hold back his all-knowing abilities? Didn’t he say only the Father knew when certain things were to happen? He’s asked his chosen people to do his will. They have to be in contact with him everyday to know what his will is. So that’s the time when they are to pray for situations, people, disaster, children, wartimes, and other world affairs. It’s a way he wants us to be always in contact and ready for his will. Also this is how he’s to know all things. However, regardless of whether mankind holds their end up, God’s will will be done. He’ll use the willing and the stubborn to get it done. Just as the Potter makes some vessels to honor and some to dishonor. But isn't your explanation always been mankind's way of rationalizing something when there is doubtfulness & uncertainty of meaning or intention that we don't understand?
It has been mankind's need to know why certain things happen that has produced such a multitude of myths about gods & goddesses.
When there is ambiguity in something, we try to find a loophole that will satisfy our need to know.
Even more so when it sustains a religious belief.
When we need to believe something is true, it is amazing the twists and turns and actual contradictions our minds can conjure up in an attempt to make something seem reasonable. Call it need to believe but really it’s reasonable thinking. Didn’t God put Adam in charge of the garden of Eden? Wasn’t it to be his stewardship? IMO, we all have stewardships while on earth. Some or a lot of people think their here for all they can get it take and to hell for anyone or anything else. That’s why we have such climate problems, why there are wars, why there are famines, etc. Lack of stewardship being carried out or carelessly done or mostly unthought about. Nothing in this world is ours for we come into the world with nothing but our infantile bodies and go out with our corruptible bodies. Bringing nothing in and taking nothing out. But careful stewardship’s will leave the best behind for those behind us. But few think about that. So it’s been given to man to be on their toes and take care of things and not cry against God because something goes wrong, simply because some human(s) have failed at their right stewardship.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 27, 2019 21:52:39 GMT -5
But isn't your explanation always been mankind's way of rationalizing something when there is doubtfulness & uncertainty of meaning or intention that we don't understand?
It has been mankind's need to know why certain things happen that has produced such a multitude of myths about gods & goddesses.
When there is ambiguity in something, we try to find a loophole that will satisfy our need to know. Even more so when it sustains a religious belief.
When we need to believe something is true, it is amazing the twists and turns and actual contradictions our minds can conjure up in an attempt to make something seem reasonable. Call it need to believe but really it’s reasonable thinking. Didn’t God put Adam in charge of the garden of Eden? Wasn’t it to be his stewardship? IMO, we all have stewardships while on earth. Some or a lot of people think their here for all they can get it take and to hell for anyone or anything else. That’s why we have such climate problems, why there are wars, why there are famines, etc. Lack of stewardship being carried out or carelessly done or mostly unthought about. Nothing in this world is ours for we come into the world with nothing but our infantile bodies and go out with our corruptible bodies. Bringing nothing in and taking nothing out. But careful stewardship’s will leave the best behind for those behind us. But few think about that. So it’s been given to man to be on their toes and take care of things and not cry against God because something goes wrong, simply because some human(s) have failed at their right stewardship. It is "reasonable thinking" only in the sense that the "reason" that they think that is because they are unable to face death.
Although they don't believe that other animals will be resurrected, -they want to believe that they will be resurrected to live forever in an "after-life."
As for "God putting Adam in charge of the garden of Eden," -that is only one myth in only one ancient tome, -of which mankind had devised multitudes of such claims.
They can't all be correct.
They are people's desire to deny there will be an end to themselves.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 27, 2019 21:56:35 GMT -5
Call it need to believe but really it’s reasonable thinking. Didn’t God put Adam in charge of the garden of Eden? Wasn’t it to be his stewardship? IMO, we all have stewardships while on earth. Some or a lot of people think their here for all they can get it take and to hell for anyone or anything else. That’s why we have such climate problems, why there are wars, why there are famines, etc. Lack of stewardship being carried out or carelessly done or mostly unthought about. Nothing in this world is ours for we come into the world with nothing but our infantile bodies and go out with our corruptible bodies. Bringing nothing in and taking nothing out. But careful stewardship’s will leave the best behind for those behind us. But few think about that. So it’s been given to man to be on their toes and take care of things and not cry against God because something goes wrong, simply because some human(s) have failed at their right stewardship. Call it need to believe but really it’s reasonable thinking. Didn’t God put Adam in charge of the garden of Eden?? Wasn’t it to be his stewardship? IMO, we all have stewardships while on earth. Some or a lot of people think their here for all they can get it take and to hell for anyone or anything else. That’s why we have such climate problems, why there are wars, why there are famines, etc. Lack of stewardship being carried out or carelessly done or mostly unthought about. Nothing in this world is ours for we come into the world with nothing but our infantile bodies and go out with our corruptible bodies. Bringing nothing in and taking nothing out. But careful stewardship’s will leave the best behind for those behind us. But few think about that. So it’s been given to man to be on their toes and take care of things and not cry against God because something goes wrong, simply because some human(s) have failed at their right stewardship. It is "reasonable " only in the sense that the "reason" that they think that is because they are unable to face death. Although they don't believe that other animals will be resurrected, -they want to believe that they will be resurrected to live forever in an "after-life."
As for "God putting Adam in charge of the garden of Eden," -that is only one myth in one ancient tome, -of which mankind had devised multitudes of such claims.
They can't all be correct.
It is also a myth without one jot of truth to it.
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Post by snow on Oct 28, 2019 12:08:20 GMT -5
Well if he's not all knowing that explains a lot of things he didn't seem to know about in the bible. I have just heard all my life that the Christian God is omnipresent (everywhere), Omnipotent (all powerful) and Omniscient (all knowing). Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence
Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless.
Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past, present, and future. Nothing takes him by surprise. His knowledge is total. He knows all that there is to know and all that can be known.
Omnipresence means all present. This terms means that God is capable of being everywhere at the same time. It means his divine presence encompasses the whole universe. There is no location where he does not inhabit. This should not be confused with pantheism, which suggests that God is synonymous with the universe itself; instead, omnipresence indicates that God is distinct from the Universe, but inhabits the entirety of it. He is everywhere at once.study.com/academy/lesson/omnipotent-omniscient-and-omnipresent-god-definition-lesson-quiz.htmlI’m sure he Can be. But why would he need to be when he’s used mankind all these years to do his will? Wasn’t Jesus also one who could hold back his all-knowing abilities? Didn’t he say only the Fsther knee when certain things were to happen? He’s asked his chosen pet to do his will. They have to be in contact with him today know what his will is. So that’s the time when they are to pray for situations, people, disaster, children, wartimes, and other world affairs. It’s a way he wants us to be always in contact and ready for his will. Also this is how he’s to know all things. However, regardless of whether mankind holds their end up, God’s will will be done. He’ll use the willing and the stubborn to get it done. Just as the Potter makes some vessels to honor and some to dishonor. I guess I just don't understand. I would think since he is all knowing that not using it when planning something as dire as a crucifixion of his son, would be a good time to be all knowing? But okay.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 28, 2019 16:12:14 GMT -5
I’m sure he Can be. But why would he need to be when he’s used mankind all these years to do his will? Wasn’t Jesus also one who could hold back his all-knowing abilities? Didn’t he say only the Fsther knee when certain things were to happen? He’s asked his chosen pet to do his will. They have to be in contact with him today know what his will is. So that’s the time when they are to pray for situations, people, disaster, children, wartimes, and other world affairs. It’s a way he wants us to be always in contact and ready for his will. Also this is how he’s to know all things. However, regardless of whether mankind holds their end up, God’s will will be done. He’ll use the willing and the stubborn to get it done. Just as the Potter makes some vessels to honor and some to dishonor. I guess I just don't understand. I would think since he is all knowing that not using it when planning something as dire as a crucifixion of his son, would be a good time to be all knowing? But okay. As I mentioned, he was into giving the Jews one more chance and what his contingency plans were I don’t know but as you mentioned Jesus had to be the Passover Lamb and how else then the way it went would have only been God’s mind.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 28, 2019 20:06:18 GMT -5
I guess I just don't understand. I would think since he is all knowing that not using it when planning something as dire as a crucifixion of his son, would be a good time to be all knowing? But okay. As I mentioned, he was into giving the Jews one more chance and what his contingency plans were I don’t know but as you mentioned Jesus had to be the Passover Lamb and how else then the way it went would have only been God’s mind. Human sacrifice is prominent in many stories the world over throughout the history of mankind.
Those sacrificed are persons or animals killed "sacrificed" for the common good of some group because that group has erred or is perceived to have erred in some way. The "sacrifice" is done to save them.
Those sacrificed are innocent of any wrong doing themselves without any blemish and highly valued.
Jesus was not the first by any means.
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Post by snow on Oct 29, 2019 12:39:50 GMT -5
As I mentioned, he was into giving the Jews one more chance and what his contingency plans were I don’t know but as you mentioned Jesus had to be the Passover Lamb and how else then the way it went would have only been God’s mind. Human sacrifice is prominent in many stories the world over throughout the history of mankind.
Those sacrificed are persons or animals killed "sacrificed" for the common good of some group because that group has erred or is perceived to have erred in some way. The "sacrifice" is done to save them.
Those sacrificed are innocent of any wrong doing themselves without any blemish and highly valued.
Jesus was not the first by any means.
No and he wasn't the last I'm sure. Hopefully it no longer happens, but with Muslims it's pretty much the same outcome when they execute the infidels.
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Post by rational on Oct 31, 2019 12:16:10 GMT -5
Yes, he had things planned from before the world ever became. But he’d given the children of Israel many chances and I know that Jesus said he’d gathered them under his wings but they would not. What I’ve come to realize that had the Jews accepted Jesus as their God-anointed Messiah that things would have been changed up however it’s true he was to be the Passover Lamb and he also was to be the firstborn of the dead. I sure I God’s plans from before the world he’s allowed for changing his plans for he knows man’s minds and he’s already written the book of Life so he’s ever patient to keep that book as written. I feel the reason Jesus said “If I be lifted up.” That he was open to changes and prayerfully hoping the Jews would accept him as their Messiah. I note he never said “when”. So that tells me perhaps a contingency plan was in place. I guess we have two different understandings of what all knowing means. To me, all knowing would be a God that knew from the very start that the Jews wouldn't change and that he would have to have his son crucified to save them. The abilities of god change in the minds of the believers when questioned closely. Why would an omniscient being need a contingency plan? Was the first plan a mistake? Does god change his/her mind?
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Post by snow on Oct 31, 2019 12:23:53 GMT -5
I guess we have two different understandings of what all knowing means. To me, all knowing would be a God that knew from the very start that the Jews wouldn't change and that he would have to have his son crucified to save them. The abilities of god change in the minds of the believers when questioned closely. Why would an omniscient being need a contingency plan? Was the first plan a mistake? Does god change his/her mind? Apparently I clearly don't understand how God works.
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Post by rational on Nov 3, 2019 6:00:06 GMT -5
The abilities of god change in the minds of the believers when questioned closely. Why would an omniscient being need a contingency plan? Was the first plan a mistake? Does god change his/her mind? Apparently I clearly don't understand how God works. That has always been a problem... Easily covered by:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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Post by snow on Nov 3, 2019 12:54:34 GMT -5
Apparently I clearly don't understand how God works. That has always been a problem... Easily covered by: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I tend to disagree that his thoughts are higher than my thoughts. I'd never send my child to be tortured forever, just because they disobeyed me.
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