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Post by kenco69 on Aug 26, 2019 13:51:47 GMT -5
Maryhig
Hi, I'm Mary, we to have house meetings but our meetings are focused on God and Christ Jesus, and we read all of the Bible. We don't believe that salvation is though anyone else but Jesus. He is the way the truth and the life. His the way is the way, the way he teaches and the way he lived is the only way back to the father and those who truly follow him follow him in word and deed, Jesus is our example to follow. There is no religion that reconciles us to the father. No denomination is fully right they all have man made add ons. But that doesn't mean all the people are hell bound. God looks at the heart and only he can judge every one of us. I just believe the way Jesus taught, he says follow me, not follow a certain denomination. So I follow him and live according to the way he taught and showed us to.
James said that true and undefiled religion before God the father is this, to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction and to remain unspotted to the world.
And that is what we do when we truly love God with all our hearts, because if we truly love God with our all, we will remain unspotted from the world as we turn from sin and live by his will, and if we help and visit those we see in need, then we are loving our neighbour as ourselves. And these are the two greatest commandments that we should live by and in doing so, we truly follow Jesus.
Maryhig
kenco69
Hi
Just wondering are you an ex 2x2 not that it makes any difference.
Do you have a ministry and are you in Ireland as your believes are similar to mine
Do you meet every Sunday and what form does your meeting take. Do yo gather round and partake of the emblems.
Sorry for all the questions but I once was a 2x2
Kenco69
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Post by Grant on Aug 26, 2019 15:01:27 GMT -5
Sorry to interrupt but until Maryhig comes online, my understanding is that she identifies with the group who left with Edward Cooney when he was put out of the 2x2s. From what she writes, she lives in Wales but affiliates with the group in Ireland. You may want to read over her previous posts by pressing on her name. From what I understand from her posts, they do not have a ministry as such but they talk to people about Jesus in their daily lives.
Their beliefs are a lot different from mainline Christian and 2x2 beliefs especially around the sacrifice and blood of Jesus. She writes that the blood of Jesus does not save us but his life. That His death on the Cross was an evil thing and so on. They do have communion to celebrate His life not death in Sunday morning meetings. They use an early edition of the 2x2 hymn book.
Patricia Roberts wrote a book on the Life and Ministry of Edward Cooney. I think it is now online. I attended one of their Sunday morning meetings in Ireland a number of years back.
The Omega followers on the other thread you wrote on referrs to those who followed William Irvine out. They are called the Omega followers.
I hope it's ok to answer in her absence. Please correct me Maryhig if I am wrong.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 29, 2019 6:29:11 GMT -5
Maryhig
Hi, I'm Mary, we to have house meetings but our meetings are focused on God and Christ Jesus, and we read all of the Bible. We don't believe that salvation is though anyone else but Jesus. He is the way the truth and the life. His the way is the way, the way he teaches and the way he lived is the only way back to the father and those who truly follow him follow him in word and deed, Jesus is our example to follow. There is no religion that reconciles us to the father. No denomination is fully right they all have man made add ons. But that doesn't mean all the people are hell bound. God looks at the heart and only he can judge every one of us. I just believe the way Jesus taught, he says follow me, not follow a certain denomination. So I follow him and live according to the way he taught and showed us to.
James said that true and undefiled religion before God the father is this, to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction and to remain unspotted to the world.
And that is what we do when we truly love God with all our hearts, because if we truly love God with our all, we will remain unspotted from the world as we turn from sin and live by his will, and if we help and visit those we see in need, then we are loving our neighbour as ourselves. And these are the two greatest commandments that we should live by and in doing so, we truly follow Jesus.
Maryhig
kenco69 Hi Just wondering are you an ex 2x2 not that it makes any difference. Do you have a ministry and are you in Ireland as your believes are similar to mine Do you meet every Sunday and what form does your meeting take. Do yo gather round and partake of the emblems. Sorry for all the questions but I once was a 2x2 Kenco69 I've replied on another thread too, as you asked this question there, this is a copy. Hope that's ok. Hello, sorry I've just seen your post. No I'm not a 2x2, we are known as "cooneyites" because we have meetings that were started by Edward Cooney, but we are followers of Jesus Christ, and all emphasis in our meetings is on God the father and Christ Jesus and the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. We also read all of the Bible, old and new testaments in our meetings. We don't have workers as such, we all are workers and do the works of God, we are only servants and we are all equal and we read mainly the KJV Bible. I'm not in Ireland but many of my family are from there. I'm in Wales. We have a meeting on a Sunday morning and 3 evenings a week for whomsoever can attend. Any questions please ask. 😊
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Post by maryhig on Aug 29, 2019 6:36:03 GMT -5
Sorry to interrupt but until Maryhig comes online, my understanding is that she identifies with the group who left with Edward Cooney when he was put out of the 2x2s. From what she writes, she lives in Wales but affiliates with the group in Ireland. You may want to read over her previous posts by pressing on her name. From what I understand from her posts, they do not have a ministry as such but they talk to people about Jesus in their daily lives. Their beliefs are a lot different from mainline Christian and 2x2 beliefs especially around the sacrifice and blood of Jesus. She writes that the blood of Jesus does not save us but his life. That His death on the Cross was an evil thing and so on. They do have communion to celebrate His life not death in Sunday morning meetings. They use an early edition of the 2x2 hymn book. Patricia Roberts wrote a book on the Life and Ministry of Edward Cooney. I think it is now online. I attended one of their Sunday morning meetings in Ireland a number of years back. The Omega followers on the other thread you wrote on referrs to those who followed William Irvine out. They are called the Omega followers. I hope it's ok to answer in her absence. Please correct me Maryhig if I am wrong. You've got me nearly right there but I do believe in the blood of Jesus, but I see it differently. I see the blood of Jesus as his poured out life. Jesus said unless to eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you. This is not his natural flesh and blood, it's spiritual. It means we are to take in his life. If we don't take in his life, we have no life in us. The life is in the blood. And the blood of Christ has to be in us for us to live. That is his life within. And our life, our old ways in the flesh and this world have to go (death to self) and we are to follow Jesus in word and deed and live by the will of God. Jesus came by water and by blood. He came by the word of God (water) and he also lived it out. (Blood, poured out life)
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Post by snow on Aug 29, 2019 16:33:25 GMT -5
Sorry to interrupt but until Maryhig comes online, my understanding is that she identifies with the group who left with Edward Cooney when he was put out of the 2x2s. From what she writes, she lives in Wales but affiliates with the group in Ireland. You may want to read over her previous posts by pressing on her name. From what I understand from her posts, they do not have a ministry as such but they talk to people about Jesus in their daily lives. Their beliefs are a lot different from mainline Christian and 2x2 beliefs especially around the sacrifice and blood of Jesus. She writes that the blood of Jesus does not save us but his life. That His death on the Cross was an evil thing and so on. They do have communion to celebrate His life not death in Sunday morning meetings. They use an early edition of the 2x2 hymn book. Patricia Roberts wrote a book on the Life and Ministry of Edward Cooney. I think it is now online. I attended one of their Sunday morning meetings in Ireland a number of years back. The Omega followers on the other thread you wrote on referrs to those who followed William Irvine out. They are called the Omega followers. I hope it's ok to answer in her absence. Please correct me Maryhig if I am wrong. You've got me nearly right there but I do believe in the blood of Jesus, but I see it differently. I see the blood of Jesus as his poured out life. Jesus said unless to eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you. This is not his natural flesh and blood, it's spiritual. It means we are to take in his life. If we don't take in his life, we have no life in us. The life is in the blood. And the blood of Christ has to be in us for us to live. That is his life within. And our life, our old ways in the flesh and this world have to go (death to self) and we are to follow Jesus in word and deed and live by the will of God. Jesus came by water and by blood. He came by the word of God (water) and he also lived it out. (Blood, poured out life) Do you have the ritual of passing bread and wine in your Sunday meetings? I'm not sure you have ever said if you do or not.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 30, 2019 6:02:36 GMT -5
You've got me nearly right there but I do believe in the blood of Jesus, but I see it differently. I see the blood of Jesus as his poured out life. Jesus said unless to eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you. This is not his natural flesh and blood, it's spiritual. It means we are to take in his life. If we don't take in his life, we have no life in us. The life is in the blood. And the blood of Christ has to be in us for us to live. That is his life within. And our life, our old ways in the flesh and this world have to go (death to self) and we are to follow Jesus in word and deed and live by the will of God. Jesus came by water and by blood. He came by the word of God (water) and he also lived it out. (Blood, poured out life) Do you have the ritual of passing bread and wine in your Sunday meetings? I'm not sure you have ever said if you do or not. Yes, but we do it in rememberence of the life of Jesus. Jesus said, "take this in rememberence of me" he didn't say "remember my death" so we remember him.
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Post by snow on Aug 30, 2019 18:12:53 GMT -5
Do you have the ritual of passing bread and wine in your Sunday meetings? I'm not sure you have ever said if you do or not. Yes, but we do it in rememberence of the life of Jesus. Jesus said, "take this in rememberence of me" he didn't say "remember my death" so we remember him. I like that perspective better than all the focus on death.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Sept 2, 2019 13:36:58 GMT -5
Actually, Maryhig, Paul (the Apostle, who I assume you also accept) says this, in 1 Corinthians 11:26, “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”
You can’t get away with only telling half the story.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2019 1:17:15 GMT -5
Actually, Maryhig, Paul (the Apostle, who I assume you also accept) says this, in 1 Corinthians 11:26, “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” You can’t get away with only telling half the story. In the KJV it's not proclaim but show. And proclaim can also mean to show, or to make known. There are different type of deaths. But the death that glorifies God is death to self. And it's through this death that we are reconciled through Jesus to God. And it's this death we proclaim or show till he comes. God does not need a human sacrifice to save us from his own wrath, and he certainly didn't need to come here himself and be one. God is a God of life not a God of death. The only death God wants to see is a death to sin in us and the image of his son in and through us. Many follow a dying Jesus, so that they can live a life in the flesh and still claim to be saved. I follow a living Jesus whom I die for daily so that he can live in me and I am being saved daily as Christ through the Spirit is helping me overcome as I live by the will of God. As Jesus said, those who lose their life for his sake shall save it. And that doesn't mean we have to die on a literal cross. It means we are to lose our lives in the flesh and deny ourselves, take up our cross and let go of this world for his sake and live by the will of God, so others can see the love of God and life of Christ in and through us. And Christ in and through those who truly bare witness to the truth, can carry on saving. 2 Corinthians 4 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; ALWAYS BEARING ABOUT IN THE BODY THE DYING OF THE LORD JESUS, THAT THE LIFE ALSO OF JESUS MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST IN OUR BODY. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Sept 7, 2019 1:29:21 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply Mary.
We have been down this road a few times before. I am not here to convince you of a different view. I just wanted to offer another perspective.
I don’t think any point is served by continuing a debate when you feel free to keep unilaterally reinterpreting the plain meaning of scripture by ‘spiritualising’ everything.
When you say ‘death’ doesn’t mean actual death, and that every reference to physical death must be about self-sacrifice by believers (which is a legitimate thing, but a separate issue to the physical death and resurrection of our Lord), then we have no common ground for discussion.
I will just mention one thought, what do you think the constant reference in the OT to things like ‘without the shedding of blood (literal blood not figurative self-sacrifice) there can be no forgiveness of sins’ and the whole program of physical sacrifice of animals prefiguring a greater offering, combined with many New Testament references to the Passover lamb? You cannot just explain it all away by hand-waving and coming up with a theology that is not recognisable by most of the world’s Christian believers.
And I disagree that people trust in the death of Jesus so that they can go and do their own thing. That is such a misrepresentation. I for one trust that Jesus took the penalty I could never pay and that he has set me free to live for him and others. Not for myself. That is what I believe. It is not ALL about us and what we do.
Respect and peace to you.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 14, 2019 13:25:20 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply Mary. We have been down this road a few times before. I am not here to convince you of a different view. I just wanted to offer another perspective. I don’t think any point is served by continuing a debate when you feel free to keep unilaterally reinterpreting the plain meaning of scripture by ‘spiritualising’ everything. When you say ‘death’ doesn’t mean actual death, and that every reference to physical death must be about self-sacrifice by believers (which is a legitimate thing, but a separate issue to the physical death and resurrection of our Lord), then we have no common ground for discussion. I will just mention one thought, what do you think the constant reference in the OT to things like ‘without the shedding of blood (literal blood not figurative self-sacrifice) there can be no forgiveness of sins’ and the whole program of physical sacrifice of animals prefiguring a greater offering, combined with many New Testament references to the Passover lamb? You cannot just explain it all away by hand-waving and coming up with a theology that is not recognisable by most of the world’s Christian believers. And I disagree that people trust in the death of Jesus so that they can go and do their own thing. That is such a misrepresentation. I for one trust that Jesus took the penalty I could never pay and that he has set me free to live for him and others. Not for myself. That is what I believe. It is not ALL about us and what we do. Respect and peace to you. As I said, I see it very differently to you, God didn't need a human sacrifice to save us. And God certainly doesn't need to be a human sacrifice to save us from his own wrath! That's just doesn't make sense at all! Also, Jesus and his apostles spoke in the Spirit, so there are deeper meanings. The shedding of the blood isn't Jesus's literal blood. It's the same blood that we are to drink to have life in us. Jesus came as a living sacrifice not a human one, and he sacrificed his whole life to live by the will of God and bring us the gospel and a new and living way to follow. We are reconciled to God by the word of God, once we hear, believe and repent and then we are to turn from sin and live by his will and bring the love of God and life of Christ to others. I was speaking to a young woman the other day, she has started coming to our meetings. She told me that she has been to many churches but only one told her that she must turn from wilfully sinning. The rest spoke mainly about Jesus dying on the cross for us so that we have no more sin that we are judged on, and that God doesn't see her sins anymore. This is not the truth, we will be judged on what we do good and bad, and those who know God and know the truth will be held more accountable than those who don't. As Jesus said to Pilate, "those who have handed me over to you have the greater sin," so it was a sin to hand Jesus over to be murdered and it was a greater sin because those who did so knew the laws of God and they knew "thou shalt not kill." And God has nothing to do with sin. Jesus said "this is your hour and the power of darkness," God is not the power of darkness God is light. Satan was in those who handed Jesus over to be murdered and they did so under the power of his darkness because they were envious of Jesus and their hearts were wicked before God. It was an evil act by men filled with wickedness. God is love, and Jesus was in the express image of God and he came as an example for us to follow. And that example does not include murder. But love, mercy peace and forgiveness. It was wrong before God to murder Jesus, God foreknew what they would do and told it through the prophets, and Jesus came to bare witness to the truth and he was willing to go through it to save as many as would believe in the gospel and turn from sin and turn to the living God. But that doesn't mean that it was right for those who did this wicked act to do so, or that we are saved by that act either. It was murder, and murder is a sin before God. Millions of Christians may believe it, but, only Satan teaches that we are still saved even if we carry on wilfully sinning. As he did to Eve from the beginning telling her that she will not surely die. But yes we will, we will be separated from God if we carry on wilfully sinning once we know the truth. And to be separated from God is to be dead to him, because we choose our flesh and this world before him. Sin is wrong before God and those who carry on wilfully sinning can't be saved, because God saves those who live by his will by helping them to overcome sin, saving them from the flesh and the ways of this world. Also, if they pleased not God in killing Jesus, then it was a sin to murder him! And God doesn't condone sin! 1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, AND THEIR OWN PROPHETS, AND HAVE PERSECUTED US; AND THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men:
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Post by Grant on Sept 14, 2019 15:15:30 GMT -5
I have been in churches for a while now and have never heard that we can wilfully sin. That is a made up misconception by those who do not understand the concept.
We all sin because we are human and because we sin God has made a way that we are forgiven through the death of Jesus on the Cross if we accept and believe in him. If we have the Spirit of Christ we will not continue to wilfully sin because the spirit of Christ is not in us.
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Sacrifice has always been literal and physical. The Jews offered up physical sacrifice and Jesus was the final sacrifice. Jesus died for our sin or else he died in vain. Was the blood sacrifice of killing animals in the Old Testament done by evil men or at God's instruction? It was God's will that Jesus should die like that. He said not your will but thine be done.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 14, 2019 16:14:28 GMT -5
I have been in churches for a while now and have never heard that we can wilfully sin. That is a made up misconception by those who do not understand the concept. We all sin because we are human and because we sin God has made a way that we are forgiven through the death of Jesus on the Cross if we accept and believe in him. If we have the Spirit of Christ we will not continue to wilfully sin because the spirit of Christ is not in us. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Sacrifice has always been literal and physical. The Jews offered up physical sacrifice and Jesus was the final sacrifice. Jesus died for our sin or else he died in vain. Was the blood sacrifice of killing animals in the Old Testament done by evil men or at God's instruction? It was God's will that Jesus should die like that. He said not your will but thine be done. Actually no one sins until they have absorbed the prevailing concept of what constitutes sin. It's called the age of understanding, if I recall correctly.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 15, 2019 3:12:58 GMT -5
I have been in churches for a while now and have never heard that we can wilfully sin. That is a made up misconception by those who do not understand the concept. We all sin because we are human and because we sin God has made a way that we are forgiven through the death of Jesus on the Cross if we accept and believe in him. If we have the Spirit of Christ we will not continue to wilfully sin because the spirit of Christ is not in us. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Sacrifice has always been literal and physical. The Jews offered up physical sacrifice and Jesus was the final sacrifice. Jesus died for our sin or else he died in vain. Was the blood sacrifice of killing animals in the Old Testament done by evil men or at God's instruction? It was God's will that Jesus should die like that. He said not your will but thine be done. Hi Enuf, there is a literal and a spiritual. Jesus came to bare witness to the truth. And to do so he had to deny himself and deny his will to live by the will of God to show us how to live before God. And he did this perfectly leaving us an example to follow. This is a living sacrifice, sacrificing our life in the flesh and this world to live by the will of God, to lose our life for Christ's sake, Jesus said those who are willing to lose their life shall find it. And God strengthened Jesus because he always did what pleased the father and the father gave him the power to overcome the flesh. And he will do the same with us too by the power of the Spirit, if we are willing to lay down our lives for others and live by his will and bare witness to the truth and truly follow Jesus. We can't do it without God, but we won't get the power of the Spirit unless we are willing to obey God and live by his will. As for wilfully sinning, yes we can wilfully sin. If we know it is wrong to do, and do it, it is wilful sinning. And once we know God and do this then we will be judged on that all the more because we know the truth. How can any church that say they are teaching the gospel, not teach that we are to turn from wilful sinning. Even Jesus himself told the woman caught in adultery to go sin no more. Also the man he healed, Jesus told him to also go sin no more. We are taught right through the Bible to turn from sin. Only the devil teaches us that we can still wilfully sin and be saved. OSAS is a false gospel. In Hebrews it says that we can wilfully sin. And it says that we are judged on it too. Hebrews 10 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 15, 2019 3:40:07 GMT -5
By the way, it was God's will that Jesus was to go through whatever was set before him (including the cross), and bare it and show love and mercy in return, showing us how to overcome evil with good. God's will isn't for us to murder one another, but love one another. God doesn't need to use wickedness and murder for us to be saved. Only wicked men murder, and they are under the influence of the devil not God.
We are not saved by Jesus dying on the cross, we are reconciled by him being dead to self, this is the true death by which we are saved by, and Jesus was dead to the flesh in order, to bring us the truth. It is this death in which we glorify God. And this is the death by which we are reconciled to God. And we are reconciled by the word of God. It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world into himself, in the lifetime of Jesus and that we are reconciled by the ministry of reconciliation, by the word of God. No need for a human sacrifice! Jesus was saving in his lifetime because he was a living sacrifice, and he was saving those who truly believed in him, those who truly followed him and lived by what he taught, obeying the word of God and following his example.
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Post by snow on Sept 15, 2019 14:00:15 GMT -5
I have been in churches for a while now and have never heard that we can wilfully sin. That is a made up misconception by those who do not understand the concept. We all sin because we are human and because we sin God has made a way that we are forgiven through the death of Jesus on the Cross if we accept and believe in him. If we have the Spirit of Christ we will not continue to wilfully sin because the spirit of Christ is not in us. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Sacrifice has always been literal and physical. The Jews offered up physical sacrifice and Jesus was the final sacrifice. Jesus died for our sin or else he died in vain. Was the blood sacrifice of killing animals in the Old Testament done by evil men or at God's instruction? It was God's will that Jesus should die like that. He said not your will but thine be done. Actually no one sins until they have absorbed the prevailing concept of what constitutes sin. It's called the age of understanding, if I recall correctly. Depends what doctrine you go by though doesn't it? Those who believe in original sin believe we are born sinners whether we have sinned or not.
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Post by snow on Sept 15, 2019 14:03:46 GMT -5
By the way, it was God's will that Jesus was to go through whatever was set before him (including the cross), and bare it and show love and mercy in return, showing us how to overcome evil with good. God's will isn't for us to murder one another, but love one another. God doesn't need to use wickedness and murder for us to be saved. Only wicked men murder, and they are under the influence of the devil not God. We are not saved by Jesus dying on the cross, we are reconciled by him being dead to self, this is the true death by which we are saved by, and Jesus was dead to the flesh in order, to bring us the truth. It is this death in which we glorify God. And this is the death by which we are reconciled to God. And we are reconciled by the word of God. It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world into himself, in the lifetime of Jesus and that we are reconciled by the ministry of reconciliation, by the word of God. No need for a human sacrifice! Jesus was saving in his lifetime because he was a living sacrifice, and he was saving those who truly believed in him, those who truly followed him and lived by what he taught, obeying the word of God and following his example. Well that sure is a better belief than a belief that someone has to bleed and be tortured for forgiveness to happen and for them to be saved. I have never understood why God needed killing and bleeding to happen for him to forgive someone.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 15, 2019 17:05:25 GMT -5
By the way, it was God's will that Jesus was to go through whatever was set before him (including the cross), and bare it and show love and mercy in return, showing us how to overcome evil with good. God's will isn't for us to murder one another, but love one another. God doesn't need to use wickedness and murder for us to be saved. Only wicked men murder, and they are under the influence of the devil not God. We are not saved by Jesus dying on the cross, we are reconciled by him being dead to self, this is the true death by which we are saved by, and Jesus was dead to the flesh in order, to bring us the truth. It is this death in which we glorify God. And this is the death by which we are reconciled to God. And we are reconciled by the word of God. It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world into himself, in the lifetime of Jesus and that we are reconciled by the ministry of reconciliation, by the word of God. No need for a human sacrifice! Jesus was saving in his lifetime because he was a living sacrifice, and he was saving those who truly believed in him, those who truly followed him and lived by what he taught, obeying the word of God and following his example. Well that sure is a better belief than a belief that someone has to bleed and be tortured for forgiveness to happen and for them to be saved. I have never understood why God needed killing and bleeding to happen for him to forgive someone. I suspect that it originated in the idea that the ancients believed natural disasters were orchestrated revenge by a jealous god, and could be appeased by some kind of hurtful sacrifice on their part as penitence. Easier to sacrifice anything besides one's own life.
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Post by snow on Sept 16, 2019 13:14:52 GMT -5
Well that sure is a better belief than a belief that someone has to bleed and be tortured for forgiveness to happen and for them to be saved. I have never understood why God needed killing and bleeding to happen for him to forgive someone. I suspect that it originated in the idea that the ancients believed natural disasters were orchestrated revenge by a jealous god, and could be appeased by some kind of hurtful sacrifice on their part as penitence. Easier to sacrifice anything besides one's own life. Very likely. It's really obvious that the Hebrews believed they could appease their god with sacrifices. It doesn't say much about the sacrifice of their children, but it must have happened up until Abraham was told to save his son and sacrifice an animal instead. So they evolved to the next step. Then Christianity came along and set them back into the killing of a human again, by saying that the sacrificial death of Jesus was needed, blood needed to be spilled, in order to appease and buy forgiveness for everyone's sins. Why Christians today don't see it for what it was is beyond me. They are all too ready to call what the Azetecs and Mayans did in human and animal sacrifice as barbaric and then they ignore what the origins of their religion did and believed which was no different really.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 16, 2019 18:56:32 GMT -5
I suspect that it originated in the idea that the ancients believed natural disasters were orchestrated revenge by a jealous god, and could be appeased by some kind of hurtful sacrifice on their part as penitence. Easier to sacrifice anything besides one's own life. Very likely. It's really obvious that the Hebrews believed they could appease their god with sacrifices. It doesn't say much about the sacrifice of their children, but it must have happened up until Abraham was told to save his son and sacrifice an animal instead. So they evolved to the next step. Then Christianity came along and set them back into the killing of a human again, by saying that the sacrificial death of Jesus was needed, blood needed to be spilled, in order to appease and buy forgiveness for everyone's sins. Why Christians today don't see it for what it was is beyond me. They are all too ready to call what the Azetecs and Mayans did in human and animal sacrifice as barbaric and then they ignore what the origins of their religion did and believed which was no different really. The christianizing of the messiah was really a very opportune adaptation from Greek mythology.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 17, 2019 5:21:01 GMT -5
By the way, it was God's will that Jesus was to go through whatever was set before him (including the cross), and bare it and show love and mercy in return, showing us how to overcome evil with good. God's will isn't for us to murder one another, but love one another. God doesn't need to use wickedness and murder for us to be saved. Only wicked men murder, and they are under the influence of the devil not God. We are not saved by Jesus dying on the cross, we are reconciled by him being dead to self, this is the true death by which we are saved by, and Jesus was dead to the flesh in order, to bring us the truth. It is this death in which we glorify God. And this is the death by which we are reconciled to God. And we are reconciled by the word of God. It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world into himself, in the lifetime of Jesus and that we are reconciled by the ministry of reconciliation, by the word of God. No need for a human sacrifice! Jesus was saving in his lifetime because he was a living sacrifice, and he was saving those who truly believed in him, those who truly followed him and lived by what he taught, obeying the word of God and following his example. Well that sure is a better belief than a belief that someone has to bleed and be tortured for forgiveness to happen and for them to be saved. I have never understood why God needed killing and bleeding to happen for him to forgive someone. And God certainly doesn't need to come here and be a human sacrifice at the hands of wicked men to save us from his own wrath! That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Jesus said that he was born and came into this world to bare witness to the truth. That's why he came, and he was murdered for it by wicked men. He came and showed and taught us the true way to live before God. And those who are of the truth hear his voice and they follow him. Meaning they too deny themselves, and take up their cross and live by the will of God. And those who truly follow Jesus will care for others showing the love, mercy and forgiveness of Christ that's growing in their hearts, in their lives as their old ways die and the Spirit of Christ grows stronger in their hearts. You'll know those who truly follow Jesus by their fruits.
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Post by snow on Sept 17, 2019 13:14:02 GMT -5
Very likely. It's really obvious that the Hebrews believed they could appease their god with sacrifices. It doesn't say much about the sacrifice of their children, but it must have happened up until Abraham was told to save his son and sacrifice an animal instead. So they evolved to the next step. Then Christianity came along and set them back into the killing of a human again, by saying that the sacrificial death of Jesus was needed, blood needed to be spilled, in order to appease and buy forgiveness for everyone's sins. Why Christians today don't see it for what it was is beyond me. They are all too ready to call what the Azetecs and Mayans did in human and animal sacrifice as barbaric and then they ignore what the origins of their religion did and believed which was no different really. The christianizing of the messiah was really a very opportune adaptation from Greek mythology. I think I know what you mean by that, but not entirely sure. Could you elaborate a bit more for me please?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 17, 2019 16:40:45 GMT -5
The christianizing of the messiah was really a very opportune adaptation from Greek mythology. I think I know what you mean by that, but not entirely sure. Could you elaborate a bit more for me please? It is an error to believe that, to Jews, "messiah" meant "christ". The Jews DID NOT believe in a christ. The Jewish "messiah" was to come to deliver the Jewish people from their temporal oppressors. The word "christ" originates in Greek Paganism/Mythology, and it was commonly used for a person who was the "son of a god" whose earthly purpose was to "teach/prepare people" to join him in the afterlife when he "returned to his father/god". Augustine is responsible for (1) injecting Greek theology and (2) deciding Jesus was a "christ", thus transforming Jesos' Judaism into a Christian religion, known as Christianity today. Recall, Jesus never referred to himself as a "christ".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 20:42:41 GMT -5
I think I know what you mean by that, but not entirely sure. Could you elaborate a bit more for me please? It is an error to believe that, to Jews, "messiah" meant "christ". The Jews DID NOT believe in a christ. The Jewish "messiah" was to come to deliver the Jewish people from their temporal oppressors. The word "christ" originates in Greek Paganism/Mythology, and it was commonly used for a person who was the "son of a god" whose earthly purpose was to "teach/prepare people" to join him in the afterlife when he "returned to his father/god". Augustine is responsible for (1) injecting Greek theology and (2) deciding Jesus was a "christ", thus transforming Jesos' Judaism into a Christian religion, known as Christianity today. Recall, Jesus never referred to himself as a "christ". there are a number of verses where he suggest that he is the Christ, and there are a number of verses where they call him Christ and he doesn't correct them from doing so.... and they were called christians in the book of Acts a bit before augustine took power....
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 17, 2019 21:14:17 GMT -5
It is an error to believe that, to Jews, "messiah" meant "christ". The Jews DID NOT believe in a christ. The Jewish "messiah" was to come to deliver the Jewish people from their temporal oppressors. The word "christ" originates in Greek Paganism/Mythology, and it was commonly used for a person who was the "son of a god" whose earthly purpose was to "teach/prepare people" to join him in the afterlife when he "returned to his father/god". Augustine is responsible for (1) injecting Greek theology and (2) deciding Jesus was a "christ", thus transforming Jesos' Judaism into a Christian religion, known as Christianity today. Recall, Jesus never referred to himself as a "christ". there are a number of verses where he suggest that he is the Christ, and there are a number of verses where they call him Christ and he doesn't correct them from doing so.... and they were called christians in the book of Acts a bit before augustine took power.... I didn't say "they" call him. I said "he didn't call himself" that. You will notice that the only people who called him a "son of god" were Pagan/Roman/non-Jews.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 18, 2019 2:39:15 GMT -5
there are a number of verses where he suggest that he is the Christ, and there are a number of verses where they call him Christ and he doesn't correct them from doing so.... and they were called christians in the book of Acts a bit before augustine took power.... I didn't say "they" call him. I said "he didn't call himself" that. You will notice that the only people who called him a "son of god" were Pagan/Roman/non-Jews. Jesus himself said he is the son of God John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Also, when Jesus said to Peter "who do you say that I am" Peter said "you are the Christ the son of the living God". Jesus then said to Peter, "flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you, but my father which is in heaven" Jesus also told his disciples to tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ, Jesus didn't tell people he was the Christ, that came by revelation from God. The Christ means the Messiah, the anointed of God. And Jesus was certainly that. No one has wisdom and understanding of the Spirit like Jesus unless it comes from God.
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Post by snow on Sept 18, 2019 12:57:44 GMT -5
I think I know what you mean by that, but not entirely sure. Could you elaborate a bit more for me please? It is an error to believe that, to Jews, "messiah" meant "christ". The Jews DID NOT believe in a christ. The Jewish "messiah" was to come to deliver the Jewish people from their temporal oppressors. The word "christ" originates in Greek Paganism/Mythology, and it was commonly used for a person who was the "son of a god" whose earthly purpose was to "teach/prepare people" to join him in the afterlife when he "returned to his father/god". Augustine is responsible for (1) injecting Greek theology and (2) deciding Jesus was a "christ", thus transforming Jesos' Judaism into a Christian religion, known as Christianity today. Recall, Jesus never referred to himself as a "christ". Okay yes, that's very true. The Messiah of the Jews was one that would save them from the Romans. Most of the zealots of that time that got crucified were trying to do just that. I don't think Jesus saw himself as any different. He was labelled as the 'Christos' after his death.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 18, 2019 17:07:40 GMT -5
I didn't say "they" call him. I said "he didn't call himself" that. You will notice that the only people who called him a "son of god" were Pagan/Roman/non-Jews. Jesus himself said he is the son of God John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Also, when Jesus said to Peter "who do you say that I am" Peter said "you are the Christ the son of the living God". Jesus then said to Peter, "flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you, but my father which is in heaven" Jesus also told his disciples to tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ, Jesus didn't tell people he was the Christ, that came by revelation from God. The Christ means the Messiah, the anointed of God. And Jesus was certainly that. No one has wisdom and understanding of the Spirit like Jesus unless it comes from God. Well, of course. John was written for Gentiles.
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