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Post by HUCk on Aug 15, 2006 0:02:33 GMT -5
There are certainly things which others believe that I cannot embrace for myself in the least, just as what I believe might be exactly the same for them. Why is this? [/font][/quote] You answered your question here, Dennis, as: "Uncommon experiences, abilities, knowledge, education, that result in uncommon beliefs, wisdom and understanding. " I agree with that and I notice that Clay, repeatedly mentions this syndrome and believes that the differences of opinions comes from the lack of acknowledging the Pope as the infallible authority on such matters. He says that is why there are 30,000 plus denominations and calls Protestantism a ''smorgasbord religion". Clay does not think any of us have the right to interpret scripture to our use.......that the task has already been done for us by previous popes. Can we get to the bottom of this? Howard
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 8:51:05 GMT -5
I guess I find it hard to "examine the issues" without confronting an actual live, speaking, thinking individual and Clay has offered himself as the defender of the truth (as he sees it). So, he becomes the sounding board in my search for answers. I simply do not have the capacity to give Howard the benefit of the doubt. He has abused any good will that could possibly exist between us, and I think this statement is an example of his duplicity. In other words, if he merely wanted a "sounding board", all he has to do is ASK me something in good faith. He could start by taking lessons from Timber or Happy or countless others who don't necessarily agree with me but are curious as to why I believe what I do. He does not do this; therefore, I believe that he does not want a Catholic "sounding board". Instead he wants to play on the internet by seeking only to inflame. Furthermore, he has stated that it is his "duty" to "warn" others about Catholicism here on this board. Therefore, this is why I do not believe Howard's stated intent. Over the years, he has referred to Catholicism as "the Church" as mentioned in the bible and I find that offensive and off base. I see as much presumption going on within the Vatican as I knew in the "Truth"......and we all know how that goes. Pity that Howard is still unable to see presumption in himself. One can easily be "offended" by the Catholic Church's claims to authority without behaving has Howard does. ....and to Dennis, yes, I've mellowed as you've noticed. I have many good supportive Catholic friends and you might expect that I don't argue with them openly. This is because it is somehow less personal for Howard to be a rabid Catholic-baiter behind the relative anonymity of the internet. Tell you what, Howard - do me a favor. The next time you go visit your Catholic friends, ask them if Jesus becomes human excrement after they've received the Eucharist. I recognize the Holy Spirit in their lives as much as in any Protestant. I do not recognize a franchise on God that Clay promotes about his church. We've been over this so many times it is ridiculous. The Catholic Church recognizes that which is holy and good in non-Catholics. Howard knows this and continues to ignore it for the purpose of his ignorant polemics. I find a real truth.... that a person who can't separate himself from his denomination without feeling fallen away from God, then he's probably trusting in something beyond or in addition to the blood of Jesus. That's the Jesus Plus Syndrome. This is Howard's opinion, only. I disagree. That should be the end of it, but Howard won't shut up about it. Yes, this forum is not for exposing the ills of Catholicism, but then neither should it be used for promoting or defending Catholicism. And I don't use this forum to give unsolicited pro-Catholic information. I respond if someone says something, which is entirely within my right. The overriding consensus here is that we need to acknowlege Jesus' life and death as the fulfillment of our faith, regardless of our meaningless and overdone (and much presumed) habits of worship. However meaningless or overdone indeed. By pursuing a Catholic debate, I could only hope that real truth would become evident. It has not. It always comes back to "Jesus is the Way" in spite of Catholicism, the "Truth" etc. Another example of Howard's lies. The Catholic Church has never said Jesus is the way because of the Catholic Church. Of course that would be ridiculous. I would be a more likeable person if I would align with the majority and pick the "Truth" apart. That remains to be seen...
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Post by studylearning on Aug 15, 2006 9:29:38 GMT -5
For Clay.
May I ask you to explain what that symbol avatar means. I was watching the Morning service from St. Thomas Aquinas and the Priest had that symbol on.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 9:52:17 GMT -5
For Clay. May I ask you to explain what that symbol avatar means. I was watching the Morning service from St. Thomas Aquinas and the Priest had that symbol on. An excellent question, asked in a friendly way. Howard should take note... The symbol is the "Chi-rho", which is the first two letters of Christ's Greek transliterated name. Because it also looks like a cross it is a nice symbol to have around (and non-Catholic churches use it as well).
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studylearning notlogged
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Post by studylearning notlogged on Aug 15, 2006 10:14:03 GMT -5
For Clay. May I ask you to explain what that symbol avatar means. I was watching the Morning service from St. Thomas Aquinas and the Priest had that symbol on. An excellent question, asked in a friendly way. Howard should take note... The symbol is the "Chi-rho", which is the first two letters of Christ's Greek transliterated name. Because it also looks like a cross it is a nice symbol to have around (and non-Catholic churches use it as well). Thank you very much for the explaination. I like to learn new things. It was only when you started to use it that I noticed it more and more. Thanks again
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Post by HUCK on Aug 15, 2006 10:56:23 GMT -5
. I pray that both of you will become truly one with me in our belief and worship of Jesus Christ, just as I wish for us all who believe on Him.
Kindly meant.
Dennis [/font][/quote] Dennis, It's hard to attempt to "be one" with Clay when his papal interpretation of "One God, one faith, one baptism" refers to the "one faith" being Catholicism. It's a total mis-application of the term. I can fellowship with and enjoy common ground with many Catholics, but when they start talking "one faith'' in the sense that Clay uses it, it's as equally disturbing as a worker's advice to me many years ago to "come to meeting and be saved". The Holy Spirit's work in the world goes on despite such intent to regulate, control and limit Him. Howard
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 11:15:03 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit's work in the world goes on despite such intent to regulate, control and limit Him. Yet another example of Howard's misrepresentations. Dennis, this is why there can be little common ground between Howard and myself.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 12:13:04 GMT -5
Thank you very much for the explaination. I like to learn new things. It was only when you started to use it that I noticed it more and more. Thanks again You're very welcome! It was my pleasure. Clay
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Post by HUCk on Aug 15, 2006 12:52:43 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit's work in the world goes on despite such intent to regulate, control and limit Him. Yet another example of Howard's misrepresentations. Not a misrepresentation; just plain fact, Clay. "Tell you what, Howard - do me a favor. The next time you go visit your Catholic friends, ask them if Jesus becomes human excrement after they've received the Eucharist." Of course He doesn't; Jesus was never eaten in the first place. The wafers and wine sure do though.
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Post by selah on Aug 15, 2006 13:03:42 GMT -5
Thanks for reply #27 Huck.
You wrote:
Yes, I agree. Thanks for your post. It gave me a greater insight as to why you have challenged Clay's beliefs.
I do find it interesting to discover the meaning behind the rituals of other denominations though....whether I agree or disagree. That Catholicism has some exclusive elements does make it relevant to some of our discussions here.
Clay, I don't know your story. Were you once a part of the f&w? There is a lot I don't understand about the Catholic faith. I have good friends who, after 30 years in the Pentecostal, faith have converted to Charismatic Catholicism. The husband of the couple was raised Catholic and then married a Pentecostal girl. Now she has gone with him as he's returned to his roots. Interesting.
I have concerns about some Catholic doctrine though. That may be due to misunderstanding and misinformation, but to this point I haven't felt the need to thoroughly weigh it out.
I did experience exclusion from communion when I visited, and this I found to be similar to the f&w.
I appreciated the sense I felt of a sacred communication between many Catholic parishoners and God. It seems the Catholic church is more devotional than evangelical.
Just some observations I had.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by HUCK on Aug 15, 2006 13:34:32 GMT -5
Clay,
Go ahead and tell us that you so completely accept non-Catholics as a part of the body of Christ that you will deny the Catholic Church is the "one faith" mentioned in Ephesians 4:5.
I repeat......
"It's hard to attempt to "be one" with Clay when his papal interpretation of "One God, one faith, one baptism" refers to the "one faith" being Catholicism. It's a total mis-application of the term."
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 15:49:29 GMT -5
Not a misrepresentation; just plain fact, Clay. Simply wrong. "Tell you what, Howard - do me a favor. The next time you go visit your Catholic friends, ask them if Jesus becomes human excrement after they've received the Eucharist." Of course He doesn't; Jesus was never eaten in the first place. The wafers and wine sure do though. See, a charitable response from Howard would have been, " Gosh, Clay, I just don't agree with the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation".Instead, he resorted to crude mockery - something I'm sure he wouldn't dream of doing face to face with his actual Catholic friends.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 15:52:04 GMT -5
Clay, Go ahead and tell us that you so completely accept non-Catholics as a part of the body of Christ that you will deny the Catholic Church is the "one faith" mentioned in Ephesians 4:5. I repeat...... "It's hard to attempt to "be one" with Clay when his papal interpretation of "One God, one faith, one baptism" refers to the "one faith" being Catholicism. It's a total mis-application of the term."I have yet to understand why Howard keeps talking about "one baptism" when he has not been baptized. For the one-millionth time, I accept non-Catholics as part of the Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. Those who are not in perfect communion with the Catholic Church are still part of that Body of Christ. Howard wilfully refuses to accept this answer, because he'd rather try to make it a point of contention.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 15:57:00 GMT -5
Clay, I don't know your story. Were you once a part of the f&w? There is a lot I don't understand about the Catholic faith. I have good friends who, after 30 years in the Pentecostal, faith have converted to Charismatic Catholicism. The husband of the couple was raised Catholic and then married a Pentecostal girl. Now she has gone with him as he's returned to his roots. Interesting. I grew up in a professing home for 18 years. I never professed and left as soon as I was able to live on my own. Through many years of exploring I discerned that the best way for me to know and love God was in the Catholic Church, not on my own. I have concerns about some Catholic doctrine though. That may be due to misunderstanding and misinformation, but to this point I haven't felt the need to thoroughly weigh it out. That's fine with me. I know that you and I could rationally discuss our differences. The end result might be that you still disagree, but at least you'd know the actual Catholic belief. I did experience exclusion from communion when I visited, and this I found to be similar to the f&w. But the reason for exclusion is different than with the F&W's. In Catholic liturgy those who are not Catholic simply do not believe in Transubstantiation; therefore, to take communion with us would be pretending a unity in this particular area that simply does not exist. I appreciated the sense I felt of a sacred communication between many Catholic parishoners and God. It seems the Catholic church is more devotional than evangelical. That was one thing that drew me to the Catholic faith!
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Post by selah on Aug 15, 2006 16:01:32 GMT -5
I do know that my Catholic friends who were once Pentecostal believe that the body of Christ includes all regenerate believers and is not just the Catholic church.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by HUCK on Aug 15, 2006 18:33:01 GMT -5
I have yet to understand why Howard keeps talking about "one baptism" when he has not been baptized. And you have yet to understand that the verse is not speaking of water baptism. For the one-millionth time, I accept non-Catholics as part of the Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. Those who are not in perfect communion with the Catholic Church are still part of that Body of Christ. And Clay is the only one on this board who believes that the Body of Christ is the Catholic Church. That fallacy is only preached within the Catholic Church. No one else believes it. Howard wilfully refuses to accept this answer, because he'd rather try to make it a point of contention. No, I refuse to accept it because the Body of Christ is NOT the Catholic Church and I am not Catholic by default. I am not ''gravely deficient'' because of my disassociation with the Catholic Church. Again, the Catholic Church is the only one that preaches that fallacy. No one else believes it and it isn't stated in the bible. I do not need to eat Jesus in order to have eternal life and the Holy Spirit will not leave me if I don't. Look how spirit filled Happy, Dennis and Linda and others are and they don't eat Jesus. Oh yes, they all have a better way with words than I do too. ;D
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 19:47:47 GMT -5
And you have yet to understand that the verse is not speaking of water baptism. "born again of water and spirit" is obvious both to me and countless other non-Catholic Christians. And Clay is the only one on this board who believes that the Body of Christ is the Catholic Church. That fallacy is only preached within the Catholic Church. No one else believes it. So what - is this supposed to be a popularity contest? I do not need to eat Jesus in order to have eternal life and the Holy Spirit will not leave me if I don't. Look how spirit filled Happy, Dennis and Linda and others are and they don't eat Jesus. "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within you." John 6:53 seems pretty straight-forward to us. I just think it is hilarious that Howard despises the Catholic Church for its claims of apostolic authority while at the same time being so dogmatic in his self-appointed interpretation of Scripture. Oh yes, they all have a better way with words than I do too. ;D Oh, sure. It's all ;D and jokes here. I challenge Howard to tell his Catholic friends that Jesus becomes human excrement and see what kind of "fellowship" he has.
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Post by Noticed on Aug 15, 2006 20:18:22 GMT -5
Clay said the Catholic Church recognizes that which is holy and good in non-Catholics.
This is NOT the same as accepting non-Catholics as a part of the body of Christ, nor it is acknowledging that the Holy Spirit dwells in those who refuse and refute the teachings of the RCC.
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Official Catholic Doctrine
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Post by Official Catholic Doctrine on Aug 15, 2006 20:30:32 GMT -5
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 20:54:48 GMT -5
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 This post is a prime example of sloppy proof-texting: Paragraph 847 says this about the above - "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation" (LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872).
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 15, 2006 21:26:22 GMT -5
Clay said the Catholic Church recognizes that which is holy and good in non-Catholics. This is NOT the same as accepting non-Catholics as a part of the body of Christ, nor it is acknowledging that the Holy Spirit dwells in those who refuse and refute the teachings of the RCC. Go back and read my reply #40
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Post by HUCK on Aug 15, 2006 22:00:00 GMT -5
(Clay) I challenge Howard to tell his Catholic friends that Jesus becomes human excrement and see what kind of "fellowship" he has.
(Howard) Whatever is eaten becomes excrement but I'd never claim that Jesus becomes excrement because no one can eat him and no one ever has. Wafers and wine turn into excrement but they're just simply wafers and wine.
If Jesus meant for his followers to "eat my flesh", those present at his crucifixion sure could have but it never even entered their minds. Could you imagine history recording the disappearance of Jesus' body due to his apostles having eaten it? On the other hand, if these early christians were Catholics as Clay claims, then they were directly disobeying his command to "eat my flesh" when all they ate was bread and wine.
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Post by HUCK on Aug 15, 2006 22:13:49 GMT -5
Let's pick this apart.......my response in bold type.
"This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own Do I stand at fault now that I've been informed about "His Church"? do not know Christ and his Church:You mean the two are inseparable?....I can't just come to Christ without going through the Catholic Church "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ I know the Gospel but don't connect it with a churchor his Church,He didn't designate what church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart,"Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation" Of course they do....."Whosoever believes in ME shall never die"(LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872).
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 16, 2006 17:49:23 GMT -5
(Clay) I challenge Howard to tell his Catholic friends that Jesus becomes human excrement and see what kind of "fellowship" he has. (Howard) Whatever is eaten becomes excrement but I'd never claim that Jesus becomes excrement because no one can eat him and no one ever has. Wafers and wine turn into excrement but they're just simply wafers and wine. Of course the point is that Howard mocked the Catholic faith - the same faith that his Catholic friends have - including by suggesting that Jesus becomes human excrement. Example of his bigotry are provided below: professing.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=catholic&action=display&thread=1121988277&page=1#1127154619professing.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=catholic&action=display&thread=1107454716&page=1#1111162304The other point is that Howard likes to claim fellowship with his "real" Catholic friends, but he hypocritically mocks his friends' beliefs in the Eucharist behind their backs here at the TMB. The final point is that he feels no remorse for doing so behind the safety of a computer screen, but he doesn't have the shameless audacity and the insensitivity to say the things he has said to me to his friends. If Jesus meant for his followers to "eat my flesh", those present at his crucifixion sure could have but it never even entered their minds. We've been over this before. During His crucifixion the sacrifice was still being made. The command He gave in John 6 applied to after the sacrifice was completed and He had ascended to His throne in heaven. This is why Jesus said to offer the Eucharist as a memorial sacrifice (Luke 22:19)
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Post by HUCK on Aug 16, 2006 18:55:58 GMT -5
Your last post, Clay, doesn't leave much to respond to......you're quite centered on how much you dislike me and don't offer much food for thought.
Instead, I'll remark on the following Catholic quotes:
"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation"
Basically, Catholics expect to be saved solely due to their membership in the Catholic Church whereas they consider all others to seek God (but not accept Christ as Lord and Savior) "and try via actions to do his will as they know it."
That description would fit a Muslim, a JW, Mormon or a Hindu.
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Post by HUCK on Aug 17, 2006 17:32:56 GMT -5
"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"According to the above Catholic claim, it appears that anyone who had never heard of the Catholic Church would be in a much better position to obtain eternal life than anyone who did hear about it (because then he suddenly becomes an dissenter). But according to the paragraph below, the ancient American Indian, Australian Aborigine and the Caveman had a better chance of gaining salvation than a Methodist who was told by a Catholic that the Catholic Church was the mechanism whereby one must enter heaven. "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation"The key issue seems to be........... ........."knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ...." As long as we don't know that, then we're off the hook. I don't KNOW that because I don't BELIEVE it to be true. This same rejection on my part would also not qualify me to be a member "by desire" and therefore I'm hellbound according to: www.truecatholic.org/cathsalv.htmHowever, not all of them have an efficacious desire, and unless the desire is efficacious, the act of contrition will not effect forgiveness of sins and the obtaining of sanctifying grace. Once again, "Outside the Church there is no salvation," no forgiveness of sin, and there will be no obtaining of sanctifying grace. So......(according to Catholicism), we'd all be better off as Cavemen who never even heard of Jesus Christ.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 17, 2006 17:54:07 GMT -5
Your last post, Clay, doesn't leave much to respond to......you're quite centered on how much you dislike me and don't offer much food for thought. On the contrary, I've simply documented instances demonstrating Howard's hatred of all things Catholic and exposed his hypocrisy of behaving one way on the internet but a different way to his Catholic friends' faces.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 17, 2006 17:55:48 GMT -5
The key issue seems to be........... ........."knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ...." As long as we don't know that, then we're off the hook. I don't KNOW that because I don't BELIEVE it to be true. This same rejection on my part would also not qualify me to be a member "by desire" and therefore I'm hellbound according to: www.truecatholic.org/cathsalv.htm Howard either is too sloppy in his quoting of the website he linked to, or he intentionally neglected to mention #5. 5. Because the Church is necessary for salvation with the necessity of precept, any person who knows the Church to have been divinely instituted by Our Lord and yet refuses to enter it or to remain within it cannot attain eternal salvation. Through his unbelief, Howard does not "know" the Catholic Church; therefore, the quotes regarding no salvation outside the Catholic Church do not apply to him. P.S. that's actually a pretty good article Howard found. I wonder if he bothered to read the whole thing...
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