cb
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Post by cb on Jun 28, 2019 15:04:56 GMT -5
Hi, I am new to the boards. I am from the no named Omega message branch of William Irvine. The last one he started after leaving the 2x2's. I have learned so much from this site as I had never heard of the 2x2's before or anything else really except for our super small world. Reading Cherie's summary of the Omega Message and the fact sheet of the three sects ( 2x2, Cooneyites, and Omega Message), it pretty much sums it up. There are some differences in my experience that I will share here. We never learned about the Age of Grace (forgiveness of sins) ending in 1914. We learned that that is the time the Omega Message started and the time of the end had come, hence the only study being done in Revelation. I had never heard about the forgiveness of sins, then or ever. We were taught that salvation was only through William Irvine. Jesus was not really a big part of our beliefs. All I really knew about him was that he was the son of God (literally, not in the trinity sense). And that the religious people killed him. And that is why we hate church people so much. They are all the same and they will be the ones who kill William Irvine and John when they come back during the tribulation. Churches and anyone affiliated are of Satan. While true, the religious people of the time did kill Jesus, it was part of God's plan for one, and second, the churches of today have nothing to do with that. The Christian churches of today were started in Acts as a way of worshiping, learning, and spreading the news about Jesus. The only part of the Bible we read (King James only) was Revelation and the small parts of the Gospels that tell of the religious people killing Jesus. I had no knowledge of Adam and Eve and the fall of man. Though we never talked about sin, we were told that the world was and had fallen apart as a result of Pilate freeing Barabas instead of Jesus. That is when evil entered the world. But there was no need for forgiveness of sins cause there was no belief that Jesus died for it and he was irrelevant in our eternity.
The only thing that mattered was how strong our faith was in William Irvine. Which was pretty scary. For one, growing up in this and being young, reading WI's letters and the King James bible weren't too easy to understand. I hardly understand WI's letters now. But heaven forbid you ask questions. Maybe if it is to further understand but if you have any doubt or need clarification in that direction then your faith is like a weed or something like that. I have forgotten the threat now, but basically if you have any doubt at all, you aren't going to be worthy and you will be destroyed along with everyone else. I remember being in a church for a funeral as a kid. I was terrified for even being there. Then they prayed. I was begging and pleading with God not to strike me down and kill me right then and there for even being present while they did that. I was crying out inside asking him to forgive me for being there and assure him I wasn't praying and to please not kill me. There was always so much fear and anxiety. I always figured I would never be considered worthy so I just begged he'd let me die before I was 12 so I wouldn't have to go through that end of the world devastation. Funny thing is as I write this, I realize how much I was talking to God. Prayer was not allowed, at least not in front of anyone. Nor were you to talk about praying if you did pray, even if it was alone. Praying out-loud was religious, therefore of the devil.
And of course, the end of the world was coming anytime. We always had to be ready. We were taught not to get to close to people nor involved in human things so we would have no problem leaving. Really the getting involved in human things was separate. Not just so we could leave. So there were no after school activities, no sleepovers or birthday parties. Only with close family. Then we spent them reading the book of letters. Yay! We didn't celebrate religious holidays. We usually got together for Christmas and had dinner and read the book of letters. But there was no exchanging of gifts, trees, lights, etc. No easter bunny. But we did celebrate Halloween! But back to the end of the world and his false predictions. So, I didn't even realize how many times WI falsely predicted the end of the world till reading on the Telling the Truth website. Then I went back in my letters and read them and sure enough, he was wrong every time. It also was never talked about how he thought he was going to be alive at the end of the world. He wasn't supposed to die a human death from throat cancer or whatever it was. He was supposed to be here when John came back. Oh, so WI believed he was the reader of Revelation. Revelation talks about a reader and writer. So John was the writer and William Irvine was the reader. He was The Only one who could interpret Revelation. So that is why it was to be him and John that came back as the two witnesses that would be killed and lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days before rising to heaven. I did point this out to a current Omega Message follower, his false prophecies and how that makes him a false prophet according to GOD and the bible. Their rebuttal was that WI stated he was only human and therefore got over eager sometimes and interpreted God wrong. As he got older and further along, he got a better understanding of what God was showing him. Funny, cause God says that would never happen. If someone claimed to be a prophet and their prophecy did not come to pass, he was a false prophet.
Anyway, I could go on and on. I hope that if any questioning or ex-Omega people read this, they will find they are not alone. Being that we did not officially meet anywhere or have a real organization, it was a very very small world. I knew maybe a dozen or two growing up. Mainly just family and a few people that we would stop in and visit if we went on vacation. Read some letters and that was it. Thanks to Cherie's extensive research and including us on her site, there is hope of others finding out there's a few of us out here.
If you have any questions, ask away.
Thanks for inviting me here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2019 15:50:50 GMT -5
interesting....sounds like he lost his mind for sure....
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 28, 2019 16:09:04 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jun 28, 2019 19:37:27 GMT -5
Welcome cb. Wow, interesting for sure. He founded the 2x2's and they still believe it's the only true way and that you only get into heaven by professing and being baptized by the workers and being a 2x2. So he really has messed up a lot of people in his craziness.
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Post by withlove on Jun 28, 2019 20:17:49 GMT -5
Welcome, cb. Fascinating to hear from you, and am curious to hear more. Is marriage to outsiders common? Is it considered one of the "wicked" acts, as opposed to the sins that God overlooks? Could you give a rough estimate of the married, un-married, and married-to-outsiders within the group? 150 is such a small number for finding spouses.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 29, 2019 0:32:18 GMT -5
Welcome! Thanks so much for introducing yourself here. William Irvine's hatred of clergy and other churches continues its legacy in the 2x2 group also - they are still unable to accept other Christians as fellow believers in their meetings.
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Post by snow on Jun 29, 2019 13:22:29 GMT -5
We now have a better view of what the other two groups that branched off of the 2x2's look like. With cb and the Omega Message and Maryhig with the Coonyite perspective. Very good to have you both on here letting us know what the other two looked like and what they believed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2019 17:01:38 GMT -5
We now have a better view of what the other two groups that branched off of the 2x2's look like. With cb and the Omega Message and Maryhig with the Coonyite perspective. Very good to have you both on here letting us know what the other two looked like and what they believed. I think we need to be careful not to help perpetuate the 2x2 myth that the 2x2s and the Cooneyites are two different sects. The 2x2s ARE the Cooneyites and always have been although historically they have gone to great lengths to deny this in a bid to try to disassociate the latter day, underground, 2x2 group that the Cooneyites evolved into from its notorious, public, riot inciting, hell fire street preaching, embarrassing and controversial past. The 2x2s never ceased being the Cooneyites although through denials and the passage of time the term is no longer (widely) used to refer to them. I think therefore we should avoid assigning the term Cooneyite to Edward Cooney’s breakaway group. It was a small breakaway group which received little, if any, public attention. The fact that Edward Cooney himself was part of the breakaway group is incidental and does not change the fact that the public and press dubbed the group associated with Irvine, Cooney and Walker ‘the Cooneyites’ in the early part of the century in the absence of any official name. I think the best description for Edward Cooneys breakaway group is simply ‘Edward Cooney’s breakaway group‘ although of course the group came to be as a result of excommunications rather than anyone actually breaking away. Matt10
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Post by Admin on Jun 29, 2019 18:31:07 GMT -5
Hi cb, you are a welcome addition to our board, along with our resident Cooneyite, maryhig. Very glad to have you both, and to learn of your perspectives (as you will from ours). You said it was a "super small world" (the Omega Message branch of Irvine's churches). I can imagine! The 2x2 world is small enough! Just replace that "faith in William Irvine" you mentioned with "faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" and a whole bigger world awaits! Blessings, admin
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Post by nathan on Jun 30, 2019 2:08:28 GMT -5
interesting....sounds like he lost his mind for sure.... Yes, I believe he did too, Wally.
Jack Carroll wrote TWO letters warning the friends and those in the ministry concerning William Irvine in 1917 about his failed prophecy of Jesus returns in 1914 didn't come true, and had a few sexual relationship with women in the fellowship and perhaps in the ministry as well. I had those two letters but now I lost it when Proboards deleted my 2x2 message board.
The senior workers demoted William Irvine as their leader to a regular worker with a companion and assigned him to a field, he didn't like that idea and left the ministry in 1914 and eventually the 2x2 fellowship 1919.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 30, 2019 8:20:33 GMT -5
Jack Carroll wrote TWO letters warning the friends and those in the ministry concerning William Irvine in 1918 about his failed prophecy of Jesus returns in 1917 didn't come true, and had a few sexual relationship with women in the fellowship and perhaps in the ministry as well. I had those two letters but now I lost it when Proboards deleted my 2x2 message board.
Jack's two letters were written in 1919. They are posted on TTT at: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/carrolls.php#WarningWmI
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 30, 2019 9:48:27 GMT -5
Please, let's keep this thread restricted to the topic of the Omega Message. There are other threads on this sub-board that deal with Cooney.
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Post by nathan on Jun 30, 2019 10:19:30 GMT -5
Please, let's keep this thread restricted to the topic of the Omega Message. There are other threads on this sub-board that deal with Cooney. The Omega Message people might want to know and read more about the 2x2s friends and workers that William Irvine who played a great part of before he became Omega Message guy to them and the other group he was a leader of.
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cb
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Post by cb on Jul 1, 2019 0:06:08 GMT -5
Welcome, cb. Fascinating to hear from you, and am curious to hear more. Is marriage to outsiders common? Is it considered one of the "wicked" acts, as opposed to the sins that God overlooks? Could you give a rough estimate of the married, un-married, and married-to-outsiders within the group? 150 is such a small number for finding spouses. Hi, So marriage was supposed to be only to other believers. Problem is, as you figured out, that is pretty difficult. I never even knew of 150! In fact, in just answering someone else's comment, I figured throughout my entire life, I knew of 23. Wi's Omega message has pretty much died out. There was so few known when I was growing up that I actually had no options for that to happen. I knew no single people who believed other than my first cousins. My parents and other family who believed kind of skipped a generation having us later in life, because having children was strongly discouraged. So there was no one else by then. Those who had kids when we visited were already out and married by the time we would have met them. So in that generation, say now in their 60's, I only know of one who married within. There was just no options. And that may have led to the demise of this belief as the new spouses thought it was crazy and did not convert. I never heard of even a single person converting to believing in William Irvine in my entire life. Of my first cousins who are the only ones in my age range within even a 20 year range, only one has married and they are the only one I know of for sure who has left the message. I'm pretty sure all but one have, but nothing has been said.
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cb
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Post by cb on Jul 1, 2019 0:26:45 GMT -5
Hi cb , you are a welcome addition to our board, along with our resident Cooneyite, maryhig . Very glad to have you both, and to learn of your perspectives (as you will from ours). You said it was a "super small world" (the Omega Message branch of Irvine's churches). I can imagine! The 2x2 world is small enough! Just replace that "faith in William Irvine" you mentioned with "faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" and a whole bigger world awaits! Blessings, admin Thank you. Yes, it was a super small world because we actually didn't even have churches. We only knew of a few people who believed cause of the letters he sent. I guess it was someone who knew someone kind of thing and therefore got to receive a couple letters from William Irvine. Then they re-typed his letters and shared them with those they knew. I'm talking if I had to total up all the people I knew or ever heard of who believed the Omega Message, my guess would be 23. This covers 3 states and two countries. Other than my immediate family, there was only maybe three others in the whole state that I had heard of. A few others in a couple other states. If we went on vacation, we would stop by and visit them and read William Irvine's letters. There was no organization. So it was only my immediate family (well, out to aunts/uncles, cousins and grandparents) that we had any contact with on a regular basis. We would read letters each time we gathered for a birthday or Christmas dinner. Again, no other holiday festivities, just dinner and letter reading. And I am SO beyond thankful that God/Jesus saved me. And yes what a bigger world!! It just truly amazes me, how I grew up with absolute hatred toward Christianity and churches and even after leaving the belief, I swore I would never step foot in a church except for weddings or funerals. My hatred ran deep!! But He never gave up on me and now I have been a believer and go to church regularly for the last 10 years. And I am ALL IN! And how much easier it is. No manipulation, no fear of where I stand all the time. I learned about sin and how we all have it. And that Jesus dying on the cross paid for our sin. And as he overcame death by rising again, we can have eternal life too. Because of Him. Not William Irvine. Not any other human. And the sad thing is, it's been in the bible the whole time. And we never saw it cause we only read what fed William Irvine's agenda. How thankful I am!
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Post by nathan on Jul 1, 2019 0:38:55 GMT -5
Hi cb , you are a welcome addition to our board, along with our resident Cooneyite, maryhig . Very glad to have you both, and to learn of your perspectives (as you will from ours). You said it was a "super small world" (the Omega Message branch of Irvine's churches). I can imagine! The 2x2 world is small enough! Just replace that "faith in William Irvine" you mentioned with "faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" and a whole bigger world awaits! Blessings, admin Thank you. Yes, it was a super small world because we actually didn't even have churches. We only knew of a few people who believed cause of the letters he sent. I guess it was someone who knew someone kind of thing and therefore got to receive a couple letters from William Irvine. Then they re-typed his letters and shared them with those they knew. I'm talking if I had to total up all the people I knew or ever heard of who believed the Omega Message, my guess would be 23. This covers 3 states and two countries. Other than my immediate family, there was only maybe three others in the whole state that I had heard of. A few others in a couple other states. If we went on vacation, we would stop by and visit them and read William Irvine's letters. There was no organization. So it was only my immediate family (well, out to aunts/uncles, cousins and grandparents) that we had any contact with on a regular basis. We would read letters each time we gathered for a birthday or Christmas dinner. Again, no other holiday festivities, just dinner and letter reading. And I am SO beyond thankful that God/Jesus saved me. And yes what a bigger world!! It just truly amazes me, how I grew up with absolute hatred toward Christianity and churches and even after leaving the belief, I swore I would never step foot in a church except for weddings or funerals. My hatred ran deep!! But He never gave up on me and now I have been a believer and go to church regularly for the last 10 years. And I am ALL IN! And how much easier it is. No manipulation, no fear of where I stand all the time. I learned about sin and how we all have it. And that Jesus dying on the cross paid for our sin. And as he overcame death by rising again, we can have eternal life too. Because of Him. Not William Irvine. Not any other human. And the sad thing is, it's been in the bible the whole time. And we never saw it cause we only read what fed William Irvine's agenda. How thankful I am! I wonder why William Irvine did NOT continue Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry within your Omega group? It works with the 2x2s group when he was a leader of and still going better than when they started in 1900s.
Did William Irvine's Omega followers have Sunday fellowship gathering in their homes? How about Have any Bible studies among yourselves.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 1, 2019 0:46:55 GMT -5
Thank you. Yes, it was a super small world because we actually didn't even have churches. We only knew of a few people who believed cause of the letters he sent. I guess it was someone who knew someone kind of thing and therefore got to receive a couple letters from William Irvine. Then they re-typed his letters and shared them with those they knew. I'm talking if I had to total up all the people I knew or ever heard of who believed the Omega Message, my guess would be 23. This covers 3 states and two countries. Other than my immediate family, there was only maybe three others in the whole state that I had heard of. A few others in a couple other states. If we went on vacation, we would stop by and visit them and read William Irvine's letters. There was no organization. So it was only my immediate family (well, out to aunts/uncles, cousins and grandparents) that we had any contact with on a regular basis. We would read letters each time we gathered for a birthday or Christmas dinner. Again, no other holiday festivities, just dinner and letter reading. And I am SO beyond thankful that God/Jesus saved me. And yes what a bigger world!! It just truly amazes me, how I grew up with absolute hatred toward Christianity and churches and even after leaving the belief, I swore I would never step foot in a church except for weddings or funerals. My hatred ran deep!! But He never gave up on me and now I have been a believer and go to church regularly for the last 10 years. And I am ALL IN! And how much easier it is. No manipulation, no fear of where I stand all the time. I learned about sin and how we all have it. And that Jesus dying on the cross paid for our sin. And as he overcame death by rising again, we can have eternal life too. Because of Him. Not William Irvine. Not any other human. And the sad thing is, it's been in the bible the whole time. And we never saw it cause we only read what fed William Irvine's agenda. How thankful I am! I wonder why William Irvine did NOT continue Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry within your Omega group? It works with the 2x2s group when he was a leader of and still going better than when they started in 1900s.
Did William Irvine's Omega followers have Sunday fellowship gathering in their homes? How about Have any Bible studies among yourselves.
If you read the opening post you will find the answers to those questions.
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Post by nathan on Jul 1, 2019 1:07:02 GMT -5
I wonder why William Irvine did NOT continue Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry within your Omega group? It works with the 2x2s group when he was a leader of and still going better than when they started in 1900s.
Did William Irvine's Omega followers have Sunday fellowship gathering in their homes? How about Have any Bible studies among yourselves.
If you read the opening post you will find the answers to those questions. Thanks.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 1, 2019 7:54:24 GMT -5
cb - would you please tell TMB what the Omega view of sin was/is. I found that very interesting when you told me about it earlier
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Post by Admin on Jul 1, 2019 17:03:04 GMT -5
Yes, it was a super small world because we actually didn't even have churches. We only knew of a few people who believed cause of the letters he sent. I guess it was someone who knew someone kind of thing and therefore got to receive a couple letters from William Irvine. Then they re-typed his letters and shared them with those they knew. I'm talking if I had to total up all the people I knew or ever heard of who believed the Omega Message, my guess would be 23. This covers 3 states and two countries. Thanks again for your insights. As well as the US, what was the other country where Message People lived? And I am SO beyond thankful that God/Jesus saved me. And yes what a bigger world!! It just truly amazes me, how I grew up with absolute hatred toward Christianity and churches and even after leaving the belief, I swore I would never step foot in a church except for weddings or funerals. My hatred ran deep!! But He never gave up on me and now I have been a believer and go to church regularly for the last 10 years. And I am ALL IN! And how much easier it is. No manipulation, no fear of where I stand all the time. I learned about sin and how we all have it. And that Jesus dying on the cross paid for our sin. And as he overcame death by rising again, we can have eternal life too. Because of Him. Not William Irvine. Not any other human. And the sad thing is, it's been in the bible the whole time. And we never saw it cause we only read what fed William Irvine's agenda. How thankful I am! Praise God! What an amazing testimony. When God chooses someone, nobody and nothing can resist! Blessings admin
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2019 17:12:32 GMT -5
Hi cb , you are a welcome addition to our board, along with our resident Cooneyite, maryhig . Very glad to have you both, and to learn of your perspectives (as you will from ours). You said it was a "super small world" (the Omega Message branch of Irvine's churches). I can imagine! The 2x2 world is small enough! Just replace that "faith in William Irvine" you mentioned with "faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" and a whole bigger world awaits! Blessings, admin Thank you. Yes, it was a super small world because we actually didn't even have churches. We only knew of a few people who believed cause of the letters he sent. I guess it was someone who knew someone kind of thing and therefore got to receive a couple letters from William Irvine. Then they re-typed his letters and shared them with those they knew. I'm talking if I had to total up all the people I knew or ever heard of who believed the Omega Message, my guess would be 23. This covers 3 states and two countries. Other than my immediate family, there was only maybe three others in the whole state that I had heard of. A few others in a couple other states. If we went on vacation, we would stop by and visit them and read William Irvine's letters. There was no organization. So it was only my immediate family (well, out to aunts/uncles, cousins and grandparents) that we had any contact with on a regular basis. We would read letters each time we gathered for a birthday or Christmas dinner. Again, no other holiday festivities, just dinner and letter reading. And I am SO beyond thankful that God/Jesus saved me. And yes what a bigger world!! It just truly amazes me, how I grew up with absolute hatred toward Christianity and churches and even after leaving the belief, I swore I would never step foot in a church except for weddings or funerals. My hatred ran deep!! But He never gave up on me and now I have been a believer and go to church regularly for the last 10 years. And I am ALL IN! And how much easier it is. No manipulation, no fear of where I stand all the time. I learned about sin and how we all have it. And that Jesus dying on the cross paid for our sin. And as he overcame death by rising again, we can have eternal life too. Because of Him. Not William Irvine. Not any other human. And the sad thing is, it's been in the bible the whole time. And we never saw it cause we only read what fed William Irvine's agenda. How thankful I am! This truly is crazy stuff although strangely fascinating at the same time. I knew from the reports of the early days of 2x2ism that William Irvine was slightly unhinged and that the 2x2 church that he founded was fairly high up on the crazy spectrum. But this takes it to a whole new level. It just proves that when it comes to religion people are capable of believing anything no matter how absurd. I knew the gene pool was small in 2x2ism but 23 seems inconceivable. You do wonder who anyone could get caught up in such a crazy belief system ..... and then I suddenly remember. I have read many of William Irvine‘s letters and I have to say they appear to me to have no meaning all. They’re not even of any literary value. Which goes to show that with sufficient religious conditioning people can find meaning in anything even when there is no meaning there. I recall my own witless attempts at finding some 2x2 confirming meaning in various biblical versus which I suspect were never intended to convey any meaning at all. Of course it does raise the question as to why should William Irvine’s letters be of any less value than, say, Paul’s letters in the New Testament which were certainly not part of the scripture as Jesus knew it or of the scripture to which Jesus referred. Or Joseph Smith’s writings or the Prophet Mohammad’s. I guess it is only when the believer assigns meaning to religious writings that they acquire meaning and then only to those who believe in them. Paul’s writings which at one time may have had meaning for me no longer have any whatsoever just as William Irvine letters may once had meaning for you but no longer have now. What makes one man’s religious letters more valuable than any others? I guess meaning, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I pass a group of enthusiastic and friendly (perhaps overly so) Jehovah’s witnesses en route to work every morning where they advertise their religious wares on a little stand with titles such as ‘Does God Really Care?’ and ‘Is life meaningless?’. They have attempted to entice me with their sales pitch many a time to the point where I once (only half) jokingly responded that I’d been brought up in a crazy religion and I didn’t need another crazy religion to which one replied, ‘We are not part of a crazy religion’. To which I resisted saying, ‘Oh Yes you are’. The truth is that everyone’s thinks their own religion is sensible, it is only other people’s which are crazy. The Anglicans think the catholic doctrine is crazy, the Catholics that the 2x2 doctrine is crazy, the 2x2s that they Omega message is crazy. Only today I had someone informing me that they had watched a television programme about India and reincarnation recently and without any sense of irony said ‘that reincarnation idea is totally crazy’. I had to point out that coming back a as cat or a dog seemed to me no less crazy than turning into a pillar of salt, ascending directly up to heaven or rising from the dead after three days in the grave. The one thing William Irvine has taught me is that people claiming that they have some special insight into the true way or the only way or the mind of god are best avoided no matter how sincere or well meaning. And if something looks or sounds a bit crazy it probably is. You can’t really go wrong with that. Matt10
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cb
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Post by cb on Jul 1, 2019 23:40:24 GMT -5
cb - would you please tell TMB what the Omega view of sin was/is. I found that very interesting when you told me about it earlier I wrote a really great answer to your question and then I somehow deleted it. But I will probably be much more concise this time. We have no concern about sin whatsoever. It was never discussed or acknowledged. So there was no need for forgiveness from it since it didn't matter anyway. The only thing that mattered was our belief in William Irvine and his prophecies. That is all. Nothing more. What I find interesting or sad depending on how you look at it, is that the whole bible talks about sin. In the Old Testament, it talks about how people made animal sacrifices to pay for their sins. Then in the New Testament, Jesus became the final sacrifice for sin. The bible makes that pretty clear throughout the whole thing. But we never read that. I'd never heard of that. If I had, it would have made one think what about that part? Then we would have learned about the Age of Grace ending I guess. I did know that it was 1914 that William Irvine's Omega message began, but we never learned what was before that. Atleast I never did. It just didn't matter. I did ask a current WI follower once, what they knew about Jesus dying for our sins. They said they didn't know anything about it. But that it didn't matter. What was important was Revelation and his message for today.
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cb
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Post by cb on Jul 1, 2019 23:46:45 GMT -5
Yes, it was a super small world because we actually didn't even have churches. We only knew of a few people who believed cause of the letters he sent. I guess it was someone who knew someone kind of thing and therefore got to receive a couple letters from William Irvine. Then they re-typed his letters and shared them with those they knew. I'm talking if I had to total up all the people I knew or ever heard of who believed the Omega Message, my guess would be 23. This covers 3 states and two countries. Thanks again for your insights. As well as the US, what was the other country where Message People lived? That I knew of, Canada. Keep in mind the 23 people I am counting were those who I had met. Maybe only once, but I met them. Reading WI's letters, there were many more people in its hay day and some in Australia and England. I never knew any of those. And I don't know if any were even alive when I was reading their letters. I know it is estimated that there are 150 left. Could be, but I cant imagine there would still be that many.
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Post by nathan on Jul 2, 2019 0:29:47 GMT -5
cb - would you please tell TMB what the Omega view of sin was/is. I found that very interesting when you told me about it earlier I wrote a really great answer to your question and then I somehow deleted it. But I will probably be much more concise this time. We have no concern about sin whatsoever. It was never discussed or acknowledged. So there was no need for forgiveness from it since it didn't matter anyway. The only thing that mattered was our belief in William Irvine and his prophecies. That is all. Nothing more. What I find interesting or sad depending on how you look at it, is that the whole bible talks about sin. In the Old Testament, it talks about how people made animal sacrifices to pay for their sins. Then in the New Testament, Jesus became the final sacrifice for sin. The bible makes that pretty clear throughout the whole thing. But we never read that. I'd never heard of that. If I had, it would have made one think what about that part? Then we would have learned about the Age of Grace ending I guess. I did know that it was 1914 that William Irvine's Omega message began, but we never learned what was before that. Atleast I never did. It just didn't matter. I did ask a current WI follower once, what they knew about Jesus dying for our sins. They said they didn't know anything about it. But that it didn't matter. What was important was Revelation and his message for today. CB, you Omega people got a different William Irvine than the one the early workers 2x2s met and had known him in 1898. This is the William Irvine that most of the 2x2s workers and friends KNEW back in 1898 and they respect him greatly. John Long's (an ex-2x2 worker) Journal in 1899 wrote:
William Irvine's Doctrines & Leaderships: "Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he [Wm Irvine] was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9.
He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus; and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God."
"In either secular or religious matters, he was a born leader of men; he was a holy man, and practical. In personal dealing, he was preeminently the best conversationalist I ever met, and skillful in soul winning. He had a marvelous insight into the deep things of God's word, and like his Master, was an apt teacher of all who received the truth with pleasure. He always set forth the cross, and was a swift witness against all pride, vainglory and hypocrisy; he was severe on Christians, but merciful to sinners. In prayer, praise, and preaching he excelled in joy, liberty, and power. He was very much opposed and misunderstood by religious people; nevertheless, the common people liked him and heard him gladly." (From: John Long's Journal) It seemed William Irvine became a different man and preacher AFTER he left the 2x2s ministry 1914 and the fellowship in 1917.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 2, 2019 10:57:52 GMT -5
In his letters, Irvine referred to "what was before" as the "Alpha gospel" or just "Alpha;" and as "the Testimony" or just "Testy."
You probably read right over it since you didnt know what those terms meant.
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cb
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Post by cb on Jul 2, 2019 11:50:18 GMT -5
In his letters, Irvine referred to "what was before" as the "Alpha gospel" or just "Alpha;" and as "the Testimony" or just "Testy." You probably read right over it since you didnt know what those terms meant. I knew that what was before that time was the Alpha Gospel and we were now in the Omega Message. But yes, I never knew what the Alpha Gospel was or what was believed during that time.
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cb
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Post by cb on Jul 8, 2019 1:05:05 GMT -5
Welcome! Thanks so much for introducing yourself here. William Irvine's hatred of clergy and other churches continues its legacy in the 2x2 group also - they are still unable to accept other Christians as fellow believers in their meetings. Thank you. You tying the 2x2's as fellow believers brings up something I spend too much time thinking about. I still have a lot to learn about the 2x2's but I know there are significant differences between them and the Omega Message. But I often think about the eternity of those who WI has ruined. For us, we do believe in God (as in the Father). They so strongly believe they are doing right by God by believing in his prophet, William Irvine. But their salvation is tied up in him. You are only worthy based on how strong your belief is in him. Not Jesus. Like I said in another post, Jesus was pretty minor in our beliefs cause we only concentrated on how the religious people killed him. It wasn't until I was recently looking back on some of WI's letters that I saw how much he referenced Jesus. I never saw that before. But it was never in the gospel way. It was in the end of the world judgement terms. But our focus was only on William Irvine. No one had pictures of Jesus in their house, but everyone has a picture or two of WI. The only ones that were important were God (the Father) and William Irvine. Anyway, I'm getting on a rabbit trail. But there is still no admission of sin. No one cares about it. There's no repentance cause it doesn't matter. So that big huge part of admitting you are a sinner and you need Jesus's forgiveness is missing. That is the part that kills me. This is where WI took and destroyed so many lives. And people who believe in the Message admit they don't know if they are saved or not. They won't know. I always hope that their belief in God is enough. I hope that He has mercy on those who have been deceived. I have a lot of anger about William Irvine for a lot of things. But that one is hard to forgive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 1:20:14 GMT -5
Oh it’s all so interesting. Thanks for sharing. Ones thoughts are going in all directions ( as I’m sure yours are. ) Take care.
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