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Post by rational on Oct 30, 2018 9:44:11 GMT -5
That is not converting. It is presenting a different point of view with the facts supporting that view. Nothing has changed. It is like opening a window shade and suddenly being able to see what is actually in the room. Not a conversion as such but the presentation of reality. Then it is up to the person to decide what to believe. Unless the messenger is lying I fail to see the issue. It's the weakness of human nature that doesn't like to be consistently made to look like an ignoramous or stupid. No one can make someone look foolish. It is personal perception. Along the same idea that no one can make you feel guilty - your feelings are yours. As are your beliefs. Sounds like it was time to re-evaluate your beliefs if they can be deflated so easily. You can not make faith look foolish. Either it is or it is not. What is the danger if reality is the cause? When a belief is founded on verifiable data momentary disbelief can always be bolstered by reviewing the facts. The bible writers may have realized the danger of promoting a belief that can be defeated by a presentation of verifiable facts. What this is really saying is that faith has difficulty in standing up to reality.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 30, 2018 11:31:47 GMT -5
Well, with atheists pushing all the fairy tales being alike as well the Bible and all the inconsistencies etc, they get a theists to start doubting themselves and so it goes on and on, until the theist is an atheist. How is it about people "start doubting themselves?"
Isn't it rather about starting to to question what they believe, -not who they are? Being raised two by two often the very strict unwritten laws have caused many to be quit insecure in their own character. Thus catch such a one with will buy faith due to some occasion and then be hit with a barrage of how stupid they are to believe as they do, sure they'll question their identity. I know some that stayed in the group had no more idea who they were. This is the detriment of unwritten laws and control by someone in either a leadership role or just someone older then themselves. Faith takes many beatings in normal life. For some, the experience make them have stronger faith, other just wilt
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Post by rational on Oct 30, 2018 14:31:31 GMT -5
How is it about people "start doubting themselves?"
Isn't it rather about starting to to question what they believe, -not who they are? Being raised two by two often the very strict unwritten laws have caused many to be quit insecure in their own character. Thus catch such a one with will buy faith due to some occasion and then be hit with a barrage of how stupid they are to believe as they do, sure they'll question their identity. I know some that stayed in the group had no more idea who they were. This is the detriment of unwritten laws and control by someone in either a leadership role or just someone older then themselves. Faith takes many beatings in normal life. For some, the experience make them have stronger faith, other just wilt Let's look at it without the magical shroud of religion: I have believe that if I stand on bubble-wrap gravity will be reduced and my weight will be reduced by 98%. Someone points out that it is a crazy belief and offers verifiable proof that the belief is wrong. No one is saying the belief is stupid, just presenting data showing it is wrong. Where is the fault?
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Post by snow on Oct 30, 2018 14:45:36 GMT -5
How would that 'conversion' come into being? You either believe or you don't. you can destroy someones belief in something or deconstruct it..... That shouldn't be possible if what you believe is based on verifiable fact. I think one reason why atheists are considered a threat when they talk about facts vs faith is that there is nothing tangible for theists to point to. That's got to be hard and one reason why a strong faith is seen as such a virtue by theists.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 30, 2018 17:50:55 GMT -5
you can destroy someones belief in something or deconstruct it..... That shouldn't be possible if what you believe is based on verifiable fact. I think one reason why atheists are considered a threat when they talk about facts vs faith is that there is nothing tangible for theists to point to. That's got to be hard and one reason why a strong faith is seen as such a virtue by theists. Fact is: Brainwashing. Even when someone doesn't think it matters to what they are hearing or reading, it does make a difference. Which such instance is continuous, the effect becomes more embeded. The evidence of the brainwashing may not be too apparent until one day some occasion just brings it into light. Then the change is brought into being. I've heard this is how they prepare some of the suicide bombers. Submit them to a repeated barrage of the greatness of being a source of carrying out the purpose of the bombing that'll land them in some kind of Paradise in the after life. It brainwashed them in the direction they need to go.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 30, 2018 17:55:27 GMT -5
you can destroy someones belief in something or deconstruct it..... That shouldn't be possible if what you believe is based on verifiable fact. I think one reason why atheists are considered a threat when they talk about facts vs faith is that there is nothing tangible for theists to point to. That's got to be hard and one reason why a strong faith is seen as such a virtue by theists. Shouldn't be a situation in a normal exchange between people. However again the barrage that is a fierce rapid exchange from one side, isn't a normal pattern of communication. Thus it becomes a kind of brainwashing. True there are people who can't be hypnotized, brainwashed, or affected when subjected to the barrage. But there are oversensitive are easily affected.
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Post by rational on Oct 30, 2018 19:17:47 GMT -5
That shouldn't be possible if what you believe is based on verifiable fact. I think one reason why atheists are considered a threat when they talk about facts vs faith is that there is nothing tangible for theists to point to. That's got to be hard and one reason why a strong faith is seen as such a virtue by theists. Fact is: Brainwashing. Even when someone doesn't think it matters to what they are hearing or reading, it does make a difference. Which such instance is continuous, the effect becomes more embeded. The evidence of the brainwashing may not be too apparent until one day some occasion just brings it into light. Then the change is brought into being. I've heard this is how they prepare some of the suicide bombers. Submit them to a repeated barrage of the greatness of being a source of carrying out the purpose of the bombing that'll land them in some kind of Paradise in the after life. It brainwashed them in the direction they need to go. The reason they 'brainwash' the terrorists is because they are trying to get them to act based on beliefs rather than facts. If you have the data there is no need to 'brainwash' someone. Simply present the data. In the absence of data you need to repeat the story/lie many times to get people to believe what you are telling them is true. And that is why you do not want them to communicate with people who are able to present verifiable data that shows their belief is wrong or, at best, not supported. If you don't want to confront and examine your beliefs it is probably best to stay far from people who can present data that show the errors of our thinking.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 30, 2018 22:33:31 GMT -5
Fact is: Brainwashing. Even when someone doesn't think it matters to what they are hearing or reading, it does make a difference. Which such instance is continuous, the effect becomes more embeded. The evidence of the brainwashing may not be too apparent until one day some occasion just brings it into light. Then the change is brought into being. I've heard this is how they prepare some of the suicide bombers. Submit them to a repeated barrage of the greatness of being a source of carrying out the purpose of the bombing that'll land them in some kind of Paradise in the after life. It brainwashed them in the direction they need to go. The reason they 'brainwash' the terrorists is because they are trying to get them to act based on beliefs rather than facts. If you have the data there is no need to 'brainwash' someone. Simply present the data. In the absence of data you need to repeat the story/lie many times to get people to believe what you are telling them is true. And that is why you do not want them to communicate with people who are able to present verifiable data that shows their belief is wrong or, at best, not supported. If you don't want to confront and examine your beliefs it is probably best to stay far from people who can present data that show the errors of our thinking. But, there are some with faith that defies the data especially when speaking of the spiritual life. Since spirits are not with physical form that earthbound humans recognize, it's hard to educate people about such when there is no faith in real desire to know. Spiritual life has to be experienced in order for a person to understand that there is such a thing Of course thus all comes down to selection in the part of the Human vs the part of the spiritual world. The situation is akin to other realms of humanity. True fellowship is enjoyed by a common interest, common goals and common achievements. Take a person into training and showing an exotic animal vs someone who's into building exotic buildings. Just because both are dealing with "exotic" is no sign that they'd enjoy fellowship together. However another builder enter the picture but not into the same styles as the first builder, they can come to a fellowship equally. But the exotic animal trainer can't. It's very much the same thing in those who are spiritual vs this who say spiritual is bunk. There's no commonality there.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 30, 2018 23:03:57 GMT -5
How is it about people "start doubting themselves?"
Isn't it rather about starting to to question what they believe, -not who they are? Being raised two by two often the very strict unwritten laws have caused many to be quit insecure in their own character. Thus catch such a one with will buy faith due to some occasion and then be hit with a barrage of how stupid they are to believe as they do, sure they'll question their identity. I know some that stayed in the group had no more idea who they were This is the detriment of unwritten laws and control by someone in either a leadership role or just someone older then themselves. Faith takes many beatings in normal life. For some, the experience make them have stronger faith, other just wilt Very true, -being raised two by two certainly did make me feel anxious and insecure in how I felt about myself. How could it not?
But STR, -you keep repeating this thing about "stupidity." But never did anyone call me "stupid" when I was a believer! Has anyone here or anywhere else told you that you were "stupid?"
My friends simply showed me the impossibility of those beliefs I were holding! I simply listened and realized that they were right!
STR, It isn't just a 2x2 thing that has "detriment of unwritten laws and control by someone in either a leadership role or just someone older then themselves" - -which keep people captive to something that is not based in reality.
It is ANY belief system which is grounded in the supernatural or the paranormal keeps one captive and feeling insecure. It is bound to! How could it not? Your mind is telling you that certain things can't be true but your belief system telling you they are! That is NOT a normal life.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 31, 2018 0:08:18 GMT -5
I firmly disagree. With our spirits they need nurturing as well as our bodies. But the body's diet won't do for the spirit. I'm sorry for anyone who has no idea of the wealth of a living, healthy spirit. There's more to life then what our bodies do in earth. I don't like the severity of the control humans play over one another. Nor do I like the evil things done to humans by humans then they Blame it on their God. But it's possible to have a born again spirit that is healthy and helpful to the homeostasis of the person.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 31, 2018 0:33:23 GMT -5
That shouldn't be possible if what you believe is based on verifiable fact. I think one reason why atheists are considered a threat when they talk about facts vs faith is that there is nothing tangible for theists to point to. That's got to be hard and one reason why a strong faith is seen as such a virtue by theists. Fact is: Brainwashing. Even when someone doesn't think it matters to what they are hearing or reading, it does make a difference. Which such instance is continuous, the effect becomes more embeded. The evidence of the brainwashing may not be too apparent until one day some occasion just brings it into light. Then the change is brought into being. I've heard this is how they prepare some of the suicide bombers. Submit them to a repeated barrage of the greatness of being a source of carrying out the purpose of the bombing that'll land them in some kind of Paradise in the after life. It brainwashed them in the direction they need to go. STR, what I am talking about here is NOT "Brainwashing!"
Definition of: brainwashing
1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
NO ONE is trying to force you to give up your religious belief & to accept a contrasting regimented idea.
Now THIS is "Brainwashing" Brainwashing -is the concept that the human mind can be altered or controlled by certain psychological techniques. Brainwashing is said to reduce its subject’s ability to think critically or independently, to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into the subject’s mind, as well as to change his or her attitudes, values, and beliefs.
So, -STR, - NO ONE is trying to "reduce your ability to think critically!"
In fact, "thinking critically"- is precisely what I keep telling people to do!
"Critical Thinking refers to the ability to analyze information objectively and make a reasoned judgment.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 31, 2018 1:17:22 GMT -5
I firmly disagree.With our spirits they need nurturing as well as our bodies. But the body's diet won't do for the spirit. I'm sorry for anyone who has no idea of the wealth of a living, healthy spirit.There's more to life then what our bodies do in earth. I don't like the severity of the control humans play over one another. Nor do I like the evil things done to humans by humans then they Blame it on their God. But it's possible to have a born again spirit that is healthy and helpful to the homeostasis of the person. Neither do I like the ways that people try to control others.
But after getting rid of that control that others had over me I am not about to turn around & fool my own self with some other control system!
I have a happy content healthy "spirit" and it would know immediately if it someone came along & tried to "feed" it with questionable crappy material.
I have learned the hard way to have a very sensitive "nonsense" meter!
True, There's no sense of blaming a god for the evil things people do.
After all, -it was they who created that god just as they created numerous other gods past & present to let them do what they wanted to do anyway.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 31, 2018 1:47:09 GMT -5
The reason they 'brainwash' the terrorists is because they are trying to get them to act based on beliefs rather than facts. If you have the data there is no need to 'brainwash' someone. Simply present the data. In the absence of data you need to repeat the story/lie many times to get people to believe what you are telling them is true. And that is why you do not want them to communicate with people who are able to present verifiable data that shows their belief is wrong or, at best, not supported. If you don't want to confront and examine your beliefs it is probably best to stay far from people who can present data that show the errors of our thinking. But, there are some with faith that defies the data especially when speaking of the spiritual life. Since spirits are not with physical form that earthbound humans recognize, it's hard to educate people about such when there is no faith in real desire to know. Spiritual life has to be experienced in order for a person to understand that there is such a thing Of course thus all comes down to selection in the part of the Human vs the part of the spiritual world. The situation is akin to other realms of humanity. True fellowship is enjoyed by a common interest, common goals and common achievements. Well, aren't we back to circular reasoning again?
You can't have a "spiritual life" unless you have "faith" You must have "faith" in order to have a "spiritual life" Circular Reasoning(also known as: paradoxical thinking, circular argument, circular cause and consequence, reasoning in a circle) Description: A type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premises, which is supported by the proposition, creating a circle in reasoning where no useful information is being shared. Logical Form:X is true because of Y. Y is true because of X. Example #1:Pvt. Joe Bowers: What are these electrolytes? Do you even know? Secretary of State: They're... what they use to make Brawndo! Pvt. Joe Bowers: But why do they use them to make Brawndo? Secretary of Defense: [raises hand after a pause] Because Brawndo's got electrolytes. Explanation: This example is from a favorite movie of mine, Idiocracy, where Pvt. Joe Bowers (played by Luke Wilson) is dealing with a bunch of not-very-smart guys from the future. Joe is not getting any useful information about electrolytes, no matter how hard he tries. Example #2:The Bible is the Word of God because God tells us it is... in the Bible. Explanation: This is a very serious circular argument on which many people base their entire lives. This is like getting an e-mail from a Nigerian prince, offering to give you his billion dollar fortune -- but only after you wire him a “good will” offering of $50,000. Of course, you are skeptical until you read the final line in the e-mail that reads “I, prince Nubadola, assure you that this is my message, and it is legitimate.
You can trust this e-mail and any others that come from me.” Now you know it is legitimate... because it says so in the e-mail.
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Post by Gene on Oct 31, 2018 4:43:41 GMT -5
Guess this makes me 25% Evangelical
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Post by rational on Oct 31, 2018 8:33:26 GMT -5
The reason they 'brainwash' the terrorists is because they are trying to get them to act based on beliefs rather than facts. If you have the data there is no need to 'brainwash' someone. Simply present the data. In the absence of data you need to repeat the story/lie many times to get people to believe what you are telling them is true. And that is why you do not want them to communicate with people who are able to present verifiable data that shows their belief is wrong or, at best, not supported. If you don't want to confront and examine your beliefs it is probably best to stay far from people who can present data that show the errors of our thinking. But, there are some with faith that defies the data especially when speaking of the spiritual life. Since spirits are not with physical form that earthbound humans recognize, it's hard to educate people about such when there is no faith in real desire to know. Spiritual life has to be experienced in order for a person to understand that there is such a thing Of course thus all comes down to selection in the part of the Human vs the part of the spiritual world. The situation is akin to other realms of humanity. True fellowship is enjoyed by a common interest, common goals and common achievements. Take a person into training and showing an exotic animal vs someone who's into building exotic buildings. Just because both are dealing with "exotic" is no sign that they'd enjoy fellowship together. However another builder enter the picture but not into the same styles as the first builder, they can come to a fellowship equally. But the exotic animal trainer can't. It's very much the same thing in those who are spiritual vs this who say spiritual is bunk. There's no commonality there. I am sure that you could get anyone to be very interested in the spiritual world. I know I have spent considerable time examining paranormal claims but to date have discovered they can be explained without having to venture into the "spiritual" realm. And even when requested no one has been able to provide verifiable information to support their claims. The methods of how humans perceive their environment is well documented. Humans live and experience things in a physical world. When subjected to controlled tests in controlled environments the "spirits" always fail to appear. Devices have been invented to measure energy at far lower levels that can be detected by humans. And energy is needed to cause a sensation in humans. Yet there is no energy detected. The human mind is a wonderful thing and can create a playground for itself.
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Post by intelchips on Oct 31, 2018 9:19:18 GMT -5
"I am sure that you could get anyone to be very interested in the spiritual world. I know I have spent considerable time examining paranormal claims but to date have discovered they can be explained without having to venture into the "spiritual" realm"
Nice! If one doesn't know something it's not a crime. Maybe one didn’t spend 16 years in school. Maybe one spent only 12 or less. Personally I would never hold someone accountable for their missing knowledge. However, if someone has an absence of knowledge and they either know or don’t know they have this absence of knowledge and then they also have the power of the so called Gospels and use it over people then they are dangerous and in need of critical condemnation before they hurt the little ones who also lack knowledge. . .
Cheers
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 31, 2018 9:53:22 GMT -5
"The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the perishing."
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Post by rational on Oct 31, 2018 11:03:12 GMT -5
"The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the perishing." The preaching of the cross is only a comfort to those who believe. If you were diagnosed with Hansen’s disease would you turn to prayer or get treatment with antibiotics? If I had an ancient text that claimed by rubbing the silver droppings of a unicorn on infected areas would provide a cure would you try it?
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Post by matisse on Oct 31, 2018 14:40:00 GMT -5
"The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the perishing." "The Emperor has no clothes."
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Post by nathan on Oct 31, 2018 15:39:43 GMT -5
"The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the perishing." ** Amen, str... to the unbelievers they don't KNOW or Understand the DIVINE Power behind Jesus death on the CROSS of Calvary. To the unbelievers the gospel story is ridiculous, and a waste of time but to the believers is the power of God once they understand the meaning of the great Divine LOVE of Christ for the humans. Christ came down from heaven to RESTORE our heavenly rightful place to be with the Godhead as the children of the Creators (Created us in Their Image and Likeness before the FALL of Adam and Eve) to RULE and Reign in the Universe with The Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 31, 2018 17:34:13 GMT -5
"The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the perishing." The preaching of the cross is only a comfort to those who believe. If you were diagnosed with Hansen’s disease would you turn to prayer or get treatment with antibiotics? If I had an ancient text that claimed by rubbing the silver droppings of a unicorn on infected areas would provide a cure would you try it? No info have I given should make you come up with this post.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 1, 2018 0:42:53 GMT -5
"The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the perishing." STR, -that is just the usual kind of default statement that people have to make when they really have nothing of substance to contribute otherwise.
It means nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 0:52:00 GMT -5
"The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the perishing." STR, -that is just the usual kind of default statement that people have to make when they really have nothing of substance to contribute otherwise.
It means nothing.
what you don't realize is that its being said so that its a witness against you on the great day....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 1, 2018 1:03:40 GMT -5
STR, -that is just the usual kind of default statement that people have to make when they really have nothing of substance to contribute otherwise.
It means nothing.
what you don't realize is that its being said so that its a witness against you on the great day.... "Nothing of substance". I'm sorry that people cannot see that substance, it might mean a whole lot of substance to them. It's from the Bible and I quoted it because of the disdainful happiness that some have because they don't believe in the cross and all that means. And I quoted it because even those words were spoken and/or written many lifetimes ago, I was surprised how fitting they are in these times!
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 1, 2018 2:58:04 GMT -5
what you don't realize is that its being said so that its a witness against you on the great day.... "Nothing of substance". I'm sorry that people cannot see that substance, it might mean a whole lot of substance to them. It's from the Bible and I quoted it because of the disdainful happiness that some have because they don't believe in the cross and all that means. And I quoted it because even those words were spoken and/or written many lifetimes ago, I was surprised how fitting they are in these times! That is just it. They were written a long time ago.
For people to be caught up in such net of guilt, feeling so in debt for something that even it did happen was of no fault of theirs today, makes me sad to see such pain it still causes so many people like yourself.
My has nothing whatever to do with any "disdainful happiness!"
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 1, 2018 3:04:37 GMT -5
STR, -that is just the usual kind of default statement that people have to make when they really have nothing of substance to contribute otherwise.
It means nothing.
what you don't realize is that its being said so that its a witness against you on the great day.... What I realize is that "saying" has been repeated so many times & used to condemn & control so many people that it is causes me pain to see those people STILL being hurt by it!
THAT is what I realize!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 8:53:46 GMT -5
what you don't realize is that its being said so that its a witness against you on the great day.... What I realize is that "saying" has been repeated so many times & used to condemn & control so many people that it is causes me pain to see those people STILL being hurt by it!
THAT is what I realize!the hole your in just got a bit deeper there dmmichgood....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 1, 2018 10:02:13 GMT -5
what you don't realize is that its being said so that its a witness against you on the great day.... What I realize is that "saying" has been repeated so many times & used to condemn & control so many people that it is causes me pain to see those people STILL being hurt by it!
THAT is what I realize!What you don't seem to realize that your expression of "hurt" is telling the truth you are hiding from. Because you see/feel hurt by those words says you are not as disbelieving in the Bible as you so like to claim. If you really disbelieved the Bible those words can wouldn't even be seen by you muchless the rancor you have with them. Again words from long ago are still living today as in the words spoken by God to Moses. It isn't you they've turned away from, but me they've turned away from.
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