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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 20:57:01 GMT -5
Snow, ma’am: it appears to me you are mixing reward with eternal life. For me, they are NOT one and the same thing. Reward to my mind from the Holy Bible, is determined as you state, by works. Eternal life, everlasting life, ongoing life, by the same criteria to me is NOT determined by human works, rather by God’s gift of grace.
Not or open to argument for me, as it is just that plain and simple. Nor do I mean this to be cruel and contradictory, rather a matter of further enlightenment. You are a non believer, so it doesn’t matter one whit to you, however it does to me. I would gladly chose you as a sister in belief, if you wanted it so, but you do not, so, I cannot.
DAJ You have raised an interesting thought. May I ask a further question? I will and you can choose if you wish to answer, how about we do it that way. If works are how your reward is determined and grace gives you the chance to live forever, then that must mean that we are all saved by grace because don't Christians believe that everyone lives forever? It's just where we'll spend it that's the issue. So basically you are saying that works gets you into heaven (reward) or hell (punishment), and grace lets you live forever in whatever place you get to go based on your works? well its true everyone does live forever but i wouldn't say that saved by grace is an extension of it if you go to hell....
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 2, 2018 21:08:48 GMT -5
Snow, ma’am: it appears to me you are mixing reward with eternal life. For me, they are NOT one and the same thing. Reward to my mind from the Holy Bible, is determined as you state, by works.
Eternal life, everlasting life, ongoing life, by the same criteria to me is NOT determined by human works, rather by God’s gift of grace.
Not or open to argument for me, as it is just that plain and simple. Nor do I mean this to be cruel and contradictory, rather a matter of further enlightenment. You are a non believer, so it doesn’t matter one whit to you, however it does to me. I would gladly chose you as a sister in belief, if you wanted it so, but you do not, so, I cannot.
DAJ You have raised an interesting thought. May I ask a further question? I will and you can choose if you wish to answer, how about we do it that way. If works are how your reward is determined and grace gives you the chance to live forever, then that must mean that we are all saved by grace because don't Christians believe that everyone lives forever? It's just where we'll spend it that's the issue. So basically you are saying that works gets you into heaven (reward) or hell (punishment), and grace lets you live forever in whatever place you get to go based on your works? Thank you for that snow. You said it very well.
Dennis, -if as you said, " everlasting life" is a "gift" of GRACE given by God meaning that it could either heaven or hell; -hell with it's punishments seems a rather weird kind of "gift" doesn't it? nor does it seem to be the definition of "GRACE."
Definition of grace; 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine assistance
It seems that is easy to understand-whether we are "believers" or not "believers."
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 2, 2018 21:14:48 GMT -5
Again another interpretation. Maybe your's is right. I don't know. All I know is what he said. Some of you will be alive when I return. And that he would reward based on what they had done (works). Likely those that heard him say that did think he meant he'd come back sooner except for Peter, James and John. And he'd told those three not to tell what they'd witnessed that day until after he ascended. Besides he did return before any had died. He spent forty days with his disciples before he ascended the second time. But I heard or read from Bible scholars that what he was referring to was the beginning of the next chapter where he took Peter, James and John on the mountain and they witnessed his transfiguration also Moses and Elias being there. This is him coming in his kingdom. An apologetic answer from some Bible scholars, but that hardly explains the use of the word "generation" does it?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 2, 2018 22:42:15 GMT -5
that probably means the 2nd death as an expression...similar to getting into trouble with your parents while your out and about but then saying to the kids wait till you get home cause your gonna get it....or your mom punishing you but then saying wait till your father gets home... Well that's one interpretation. I wouldn't know which one is right of course. I just know what it says. Not what it might have meant beyond what it says. Jesus did return once already. But he spent only forty days with his apostles and disciples, then he ascended into heaven as told in Acts 1. We read in John 21:17 that Jesus told Mary to go and tell his brethren that he was ascending to his Father and their Father...then it says the same day at evening he appeared to them where they were with closed doors for fear of the Jews, and told them peace be until you. But by Matthew 17 going in to tell what Jesus did with Peter, James and John in the mountain, it's as if he had told them what they would see and then Peter telling in II Peter 1 that it wasn't fables, but that Peter had seen his Majesty. Otherwords Peter was saying he saw Jesus in his kingdom. The second death has to do with the unsaved people after Judgment day. It has nothing to do with Jesus' return because he'd already returned with his millennial reign. Second death happens just as the old heaven and Earth are folded up and the new heaven and Earth are brought into being.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 2, 2018 22:53:03 GMT -5
Likely those that heard him say that did think he meant he'd come back sooner except for Peter, James and John. And he'd told those three not to tell what they'd witnessed that day until after he ascended. Besides he did return before any had died. He spent forty days with his disciples before he ascended the second time. But I heard or read from Bible scholars that what he was referring to was the beginning of the next chapter where he took Peter, James and John on the mountain and they witnessed his transfiguration also Moses and Elias being there. This is him coming in his kingdom. An apologetic answer from some Bible scholars, but that hardly explains the use of the word "generation" does it?It is quite all together if you don't quit reading too soon. Chapter 17 starts with "And after six days Jesus. ". This is tying chapter 16 and chapter 17 together. Then you read what Peter says about seeing Jesus' Majesty, is saying he saw him in his kingdom. There's no apologetics involved. It's a matter of reading the Bible as it is. And also, Jesus did return once after he'd gone to his Father and their Father and his God. And their God. In the same day he ascended he came back to where they were behind closed doors due to fear of the Jews. And spent forty days with his disciples before ascending in their presence as told in Acts 1.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 2, 2018 23:56:42 GMT -5
DEAR Lady, the way you perceive what Christians believe, and how I perceive it is considerably different.
Death th to me means separation from my God, eternally, forever. To those blessed with eternal life, it means moving from this awareness to another of promise. Personally, I am very certain I was once there, and grieving over my children I was leaving behind, my God GAVE me the choice to return. I had been taught many things I did not prove true in that experience. On the other hand, I proved many things true by that experience most posting here have dismissed or ridiculed. Be that as it may be.
It is my perception that death to you and all non believers is merely an end to this life as you know it to be, nothing thereafter. I know of no Christian who believes like that. Not one over my entire lifetime. We do not. Neither I nor any other “Christian.” Personally, I believe your eternity separated from God will last until He ends it, if ever. It is NOT what I nor again any other Christian I have ever known would ever chose for you. Personally, I believe any kindness you have ever shown to a believer will not go unrewarded, which to me means you will be thankful for having shown it then.
Now this brings us to the other side, separated by a fixed gulf, to me of souls never having had our choices in life. Personally, again, I believe I will be rewarded for every kindness shown to you and those like you. How? I have NO idea! I just believe in loving kindness. Some here do not believekind I think this way. They simply do not know me, and there is little I can do about that.
Kindest Thoughts and wishes to all of you... DAJ
I think actually we are believing the same thing, Dennis. You phrase it as death to be separated from God. I believe that is so, but I think it's called the second death because every one has to die once according to the Bible, but those saved by Grace won't know of the second death or the eternal separation from God. As to non saved and rewards? As I said the Just Judge will do what is right, though we do have the example of Jesus saying he knew them not. It isn't for me to know I'm sure.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 3, 2018 0:13:32 GMT -5
An apologetic answer from some Bible scholars, but that hardly explains the use of the word "generation" does it? It is quite all together if you don't quit reading too soon. Chapter 17 starts with "And after six days Jesus. ". This is tying chapter 16 and chapter 17 together. Then you read what Peter says about seeing Jesus' Majesty, is saying he saw him in his kingdom. There's no apologetics involved. It's a matter of reading the Bible as it is. And also, Jesus did return once after he'd gone to his Father and their Father and his God. And their God. In the same day he ascended he came back to where they were behind closed doors due to fear of the Jews. And spent forty days with his disciples before ascending in their presence as told in Acts 1. STR, Where is the scripture that states Jesus ascended once, -then came back again, -then stayed for 40 days before he ascended a second time?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 3, 2018 1:16:56 GMT -5
It is quite all together if you don't quit reading too soon. Chapter 17 starts with "And after six days Jesus. ". This is tying chapter 16 and chapter 17 together. Then you read what Peter says about seeing Jesus' Majesty, is saying he saw him in his kingdom. There's no apologetics involved. It's a matter of reading the Bible as it is. And also, Jesus did return once after he'd gone to his Father and their Father and his God. And their God. In the same day he ascended he came back to where they were behind closed doors due to fear of the Jews. And spent forty days with his disciples before ascending in their presence as told in Acts 1. STR, Where is the scripture that states Jesus ascended once, -then came back again, -then stayed for 40 days before he ascended a second time?
In John's gospel chapter 20:17-- it tells about Mary Magdalene and Jesus in the garden on first day of week right after he resurrected, he tells her to go tell his brethren that he is going to his Father and their Father, his God and their God and that he'd see them in Galilee. Jesus had not been to heaven to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest would do to offer the sacrifice for sin. This is his first claim as the Priesthood of Melchizedek forever. He'd made the sacrifices for mankind's sins, but then he would have to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest. As he'd said he was fulfilling and finishing the old law. As the veil had been rent in Twain in the earth bound temple, the only Holiest of Holies was heaven at the throne of God the Father. Then same chapter in John says that on the same day later in the evening he appeared to his disciples behind closed doors. This is his first return. They saw him the next forty days before his second ascension as told in Acts 1. He hasn't returned to the earth again as in the general population to expect. That will be for his millennial reign. There may have been a few times a person may have seen him one on one, but those were exceptional occasions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 1:19:59 GMT -5
STR, Where is the scripture that states Jesus ascended once, -then came back again, -then stayed for 40 days before he ascended a second time?
In John's gospel chapter 20:17-- it tells about Mary Magdalene and Jesus in the garden on first day of week right after he resurrected, he tells her to go tell his brethren that he is going to his Father and their Father, his God and their God and that he'd see them in Galilee. Jesus had not been to heaven to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest would do to offer the sacrifice for sin. This is his first claim as the Priesthood of Melchizedek forever. He'd made the sacrifices for mankind's sins, but then he would have to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest. As he'd said he was fulfilling and finishing the old law. As the veil had been rent in Twain in the earth bound temple, the only Holiest of Holies was heaven at the throne of God the Father. Then same chapter in John says that on the same day later in the evening he appeared to his disciples behind closed doors. This is his first return. They saw him the next forty days before his second ascension as told in Acts 1. He hasn't returned to the earth again as in the general population to expect. That will be for his millennial reign. There may have been a few times a person may have seen him one on one, but those were exceptional occasions. that is an interesting interpretation don't know though if it is right or wrong....
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 3, 2018 1:32:57 GMT -5
STR, Where is the scripture that states Jesus ascended once, -then came back again, -then stayed for 40 days before he ascended a second time?
In John's gospel chapter 20:17-- it tells about Mary Magdalene and Jesus in the garden on first day of week right after he resurrected, he tells her to go tell his brethren that he is going to his Father and their Father, his God and their God and that he'd see them in Galilee. Jesus had not been to heaven to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest would do to offer the sacrifice for sin. This is his first claim as the Priesthood of Melchizedek forever. He'd made the sacrifices for mankind's sins, but then he would have to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest. As he'd said he was fulfilling and finishing the old law. As the veil had been rent in Twain in the earth bound temple, the only Holiest of Holies was heaven at the throne of God the Father. Then same chapter in John says that on the same day later in the evening he appeared to his disciples behind closed doors. This is his first return. They saw him the next forty days before his second ascension as told in Acts 1. He hasn't returned to the earth again as in the general population to expect. That will be for his millennial reign. There may have been a few times a person may have seen him one on one, but those were exceptional occasions. Whoa! could be, but I have never heard that before!
Where did you hear that from?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 3:38:53 GMT -5
Not unusual at all. Every small group / life group I have been in has had the emblems from time to time. Be it Baptist to Pentecostal. We may have a devotional time in the small group when we reflect and partake of the emblems several times a year. People at times will also have the emblems with someone when visiting them in hospital too. It is not just to be taken on a Sunday morning in the home. What about the years before the workers started having Sunday morning fellowship meetings. Did they not have the emblems? God dwells in the heart. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in his name there he is in the midst. The workers have turned the Sunday morning meeting in the home into a temple where God is found. No, he's with us everywhere anytime. Yes, I agree God wants to dwell in our hearts as His home. However, Jesus has establish in LUKE 22, where He and the 12 apostles came together to celebrate the Passover Lamb of God. They continue this type of Christ's Passover meals in the New Testament and to worship God the Father, singing hymns, given thanks to Jesus life, death and resurrection until He comes again.
We read in the New Testament in the scriptures the apostles and followers of Jesus gathered in the homes of believers (2-3, 10-20 people) to worship God on first day of the week/Sunday and have fellowship with one another to encourage each others to continue in the LORD, keep the fire of God's LOVE burning strong within our hearts.Acts 2:42-47 King James Version (KJV) 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. It seems the emblems (breakng bread) was partaken of regularly, perhaps even with every main meal, much like we do in saying grace before a meal.
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janj
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Post by janj on Sept 3, 2018 4:21:27 GMT -5
Just stating facts - I’m definitely not judging them to hell which is what many workers do all the time. I look forward to the day when they publicly rebuke themselves and their people who call their fellowship “the truth” and state Jesus is “the truth”. I hope it occurs. It seems some people don't like to face facts Ross.Bowden ! I suppose the next thing will be that we have it wrong... the workers have never said they were the "only right way" or spoken against "Worldly churches" ! Ros -why don't you actually read the post a person is commenting on before you launch in with your standard attack. I was commenting on Ross's statement: "The 2x2 ministry is all about themselves and their authority. It’s not about worshipping and serving the risen Lord and upholding His name" "Only right way & worldly churches"..where did you drag that up from (yet again!). You tell Nathan over and over that he quotes as fact, things that are only his opinion. Well Ross's statement was entirely opinion and a judgemental one at that!! Regardless if what we believe, to say the ministry (which includes every one of them) are all about themselves and their authority is not factual or correct.
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Post by nathan on Sept 3, 2018 8:59:08 GMT -5
Yes, I agree God wants to dwell in our hearts as His home. However, Jesus has establish in LUKE 22, where He and the 12 apostles came together to celebrate the Passover Lamb of God. They continue this type of Christ's Passover meals in the New Testament and to worship God the Father, singing hymns, given thanks to Jesus life, death and resurrection until He comes again.
We read in the New Testament in the scriptures the apostles and followers of Jesus gathered in the homes of believers (2-3, 10-20 people) to worship God on first day of the week/Sunday and have fellowship with one another to encourage each others to continue in the LORD, keep the fire of God's LOVE burning strong within our hearts. Acts 2:42-47 King James Version (KJV) 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. It seems the emblems (breaking bread) was partaken of regularly, perhaps even with every main meal, much like we do in saying grace before a meal. The Bible uses the expression “breaking of bread” in different ways. First, Acts 2:42-46 describes the early church breaking bread as part of their fellowship: "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers."
The early Christians came together regularly for common meals, which included the breaking of bread. Acts 2:44 refers to them having “everything in common,” and this no doubt included sharing meals together, each one receiving from the others what they needed. Verse 46 describes them breaking bread in their homes.
Paul wrote in I Cor. The Christians celebrate Christ's Passover/bread and wine on 1st day of the week, in remembering the Life, death/sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. People are working daily to earn their living, bills to pays, families to care for and the children. Sometimes the believers have non-believers husbands or wives so they had to spent time with them too.
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Post by nathan on Sept 3, 2018 9:10:18 GMT -5
In John's gospel chapter 20:17-- it tells about Mary Magdalene and Jesus in the garden on first day of week right after he resurrected, he tells her to go tell his brethren that he is going to his Father and their Father, his God and their God and that he'd see them in Galilee. Jesus had not been to heaven to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest would do to offer the sacrifice for sin. This is his first claim as the Priesthood of Melchizedek forever. He'd made the sacrifices for mankind's sins, but then he would have to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest. As he'd said he was fulfilling and finishing the old law. As the veil had been rent in Twain in the earth bound temple, the only Holiest of Holies was heaven at the throne of God the Father. Then same chapter in John says that on the same day later in the evening he appeared to his disciples behind closed doors. This is his first return. They saw him the next forty days before his second ascension as told in Acts 1. He hasn't returned to the earth again as in the general population to expect. That will be for his millennial reign. There may have been a few times a person may have seen him one on one, but those were exceptional occasions. Whoa! could be, but I have never heard that before!
Where did you hear that from? I agree with STR, Jesus' Spirit descended to HADES for 3 days and nights to free the Old and New Testament believers souls were held captive their by sins. God could NOT allow Adam, Eve and their children souls enter heaven because of sin=DEATH. The Believers had to wait for Jesus to pay the Ransom priced before they could be SET FREE from Hades for 4000 yrs.
Now the New Test. believers ascended to heaven after death, because Jesus has paid our ransom free, we no longer go to HADES and wait there. ONLY the unbelievers go and wait in HADES until the appear to God for the judgment day. After Jesus rose from the dead, He told Mary Mag. "Don't touch me, for I have NOT ascended to my Father in heaven." He went to the Father with the New resurrection body, and he came back and be with more than 500 of his followers for 40 days. Then after that he ascended to the Father, and the disciples saw it with their own eyes. The angels said to them the same Jesus will come back in the same manner, as you saw him ascended in the sky.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 3, 2018 9:49:55 GMT -5
In John's gospel chapter 20:17-- it tells about Mary Magdalene and Jesus in the garden on first day of week right after he resurrected, he tells her to go tell his brethren that he is going to his Father and their Father, his God and their God and that he'd see them in Galilee. Jesus had not been to heaven to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest would do to offer the sacrifice for sin. This is his first claim as the Priesthood of Melchizedek forever. He'd made the sacrifices for mankind's sins, but then he would have to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest. As he'd said he was fulfilling and finishing the old law. As the veil had been rent in Twain in the earth bound temple, the only Holiest of Holies was heaven at the throne of God the Father. Then same chapter in John says that on the same day later in the evening he appeared to his disciples behind closed doors. This is his first return. They saw him the next forty days before his second ascension as told in Acts 1. He hasn't returned to the earth again as in the general population to expect. That will be for his millennial reign. There may have been a few times a person may have seen him one on one, but those were exceptional occasions. that is an interesting interpretation don't know though if it is right or wrong.... He'd told Mary not to hold him or touch him. This is carrying out the Mosaic law that priests had to be sanctified to serve in the temple. We see the first time such was asked by God that the children of Israel were to cleanse themselves 3 days and not come at their wives 3 days before coming near the mountain. When David and his men ate the shewbread the priest determined that the men had not been with their wives or women for 3 days. Jesus had been 3 days without human touch, so he wanted to keep clean so he could go into heaven in the Holiest of Holies and present himself as priest forever after the order of Melchizedek to his Father, his God. Wally, Jesus said every jot and tittle of the law would be fulfilled. We know many things in the OT are types and foreshadow of the NT particularly Jesus. The Passover lamb was taken into the house on the tenth day of the month and kept there and butchered on the fourteenth day of the month. This was the cleansing process for the lamb, 3 days out of the herd being mixed mingled with whatever was in the herd. Jesus is the Lord's Passover Lamb. He was separated from humans 3days and thus was cleansed per law of Passover Lamb. And the priests law as well. Thus he would not have let Thomas touch him either if he hadn't already presented himself as the High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. John found it important to tell of this ascension of Jesus because it fulfilled God's promise that Jesus would be High Priest after Order of Melchizedek. Thus another prophecy AND Mosaic be law fulfilled.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 3, 2018 9:55:06 GMT -5
In John's gospel chapter 20:17-- it tells about Mary Magdalene and Jesus in the garden on first day of week right after he resurrected, he tells her to go tell his brethren that he is going to his Father and their Father, his God and their God and that he'd see them in Galilee. Jesus had not been to heaven to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest would do to offer the sacrifice for sin. This is his first claim as the Priesthood of Melchizedek forever. He'd made the sacrifices for mankind's sins, but then he would have to go into the Holiest of Holies as the Chief Priest. As he'd said he was fulfilling and finishing the old law. As the veil had been rent in Twain in the earth bound temple, the only Holiest of Holies was heaven at the throne of God the Father. Then same chapter in John says that on the same day later in the evening he appeared to his disciples behind closed doors. This is his first return. They saw him the next forty days before his second ascension as told in Acts 1. He hasn't returned to the earth again as in the general population to expect. That will be for his millennial reign. There may have been a few times a person may have seen him one on one, but those were exceptional occasions. Whoa! could be, but I have never heard that before!
Where did you hear that from?Notes from one of the original workers. Also from other ministers of Christian churches. In my reply to Wally, I tried to tie it into the OT via the Passover lamb and other OT laws about priests or people presenting themselves before God. I think Evan Jones was the first who had spoken a bit about the priesthood of Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 11:54:42 GMT -5
Acts 2:42-47 King James Version (KJV) 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. It seems the emblems (breaking bread) was partaken of regularly, perhaps even with every main meal, much like we do in saying grace before a meal. The Bible uses the expression “breaking of bread” in different ways. First, Acts 2:42-46 describes the early church breaking bread as part of their fellowship: "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers."
The early Christians came together regularly for common meals, which included the breaking of bread. Acts 2:44 refers to them having “everything in common,” and this no doubt included sharing meals together, each one receiving from the others what they needed. Verse 46 describes them breaking bread in their homes.
Paul wrote in I Cor. The Christians celebrate Christ's Passover/bread and wine on 1st day of the week, in remembering the Life, death/sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. People are working daily to earn their living, bills to pays, families to care for and the children. Sometimes the believers have non-believers husbands or wives so they had to spent time with them too.
Nathan, these examples were all the same. The breaking of bread, whenever it occurred was the emblems celebration.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 12:59:46 GMT -5
Acts 2:42-47 King James Version (KJV) 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.This must be the early early church. hmmmm. How shall we deal with the idea that they sold all they had, had all things in common, and yet apparently had houses to eat in? hmmm. Time to start doubting those doubts, and keeping in our place.
It doesn't say they sold all they had, it says they sold their possessions and goods (likely non-essentials)
As far as I can observe, if you are going to claim that your church is the only true church, you need to have a plan in place for dismissing all those parts of the bible you don't choose to follow, while emphasizing a few verses that you do. It seems to be dealt with thus...
I make no such claim. I do not go to Meetings.
1. Treat the moral instructions of Jesus as they pertain to how a person is to individually live and walk as secondary. In essence, these things only matter if you are in the one true church. It's also helpful to treat grace as something that kicks in after you die.
2. When confronted with something in scripture that you can outwardly do (often instructions to a specific group of people) AND you notice that the majority of churches around you don't do this, make that the "Foundation of the Gospel". Context of the scripture is irrelevant, because after all, God has spoken to very special YOU, and very special YOU now have very special knowledge/wisdom from on high. (Be both exceedingly humble, and exceedingly smug at the same time. You'll fool the right sort of people this way, and keep the wrong sort out)
3. When confronted with scripture that you can outwardly do, but don't do, use your very special wisdom given from on high to very special you to become an expert in biblical context. When people object to this cherry picking, just remember, very special YOU are right. This doubters are worldlings after all, who lack the very special wisdom given to very special (and oh so humble) you.
4. If someone says something that causes you any discomfort in the mind, remember to doubt your doubts. You don't want to have the liberty to think thoughts, after all. Stay in your place, like a sheep.
5. Remember, salvation comes by staying in the fold, one true Way, Truth of God, and Center of God's Will. You might be the only person in your town destined for eternal life. This is actually wonderful news - Jesus said there were many mansions in his house. With any luck, heaven will be so sparsely populated that you can have a summer and a winter mansion.
6. Bearing in mind #5, make sure you don't invite too many people to your church, and make sure you don't evangelize. Best, really, to make sure no one knows you exist. You don't want the "wrong sort" of Christian accidentally joining your True Church. That sort of thing happens, and you may not get that Summer mansion. Make sure you convince yourself and others in the true church that you actually are seeking lost souls, however. How can you reconcile this obvious disconnect? With man's knowledge, it is impossible. Best to doubt your doubts. Keep in your place.
7. Just remember, Jesus died for all, but only very special you found the right loophole that will save you. Just don't tell anyone for goodness sakes! Jesus said that few will find the straight and narrow way. He also sad that 'many' will try to enter by the broad gate. I do not know how few the few will be, or how many the many will be, but I suspect these things are relative.
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Post by snow on Sept 3, 2018 14:12:30 GMT -5
Again another interpretation. Maybe your's is right. I don't know. All I know is what he said. Some of you will be alive when I return. And that he would reward based on what they had done (works). Likely those that heard him say that did think he meant he'd come back sooner except for Peter, James and John. And he'd told those three not to tell what they'd witnessed that day until after he ascended. Besides he did return before any had died. He spent forty days with his disciples before he ascended the second time. But I heard or read from Bible scholars that what he was referring to was the beginning of the next chapter where he took Peter, James and John on the mountain and they witnessed his transfiguration also Moses and Elias being there. This is him coming in his kingdom. Well however, it can be interpreted, he hasn't come back yet. That much we know.
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Post by snow on Sept 3, 2018 14:15:34 GMT -5
You have raised an interesting thought. May I ask a further question? I will and you can choose if you wish to answer, how about we do it that way. If works are how your reward is determined and grace gives you the chance to live forever, then that must mean that we are all saved by grace because don't Christians believe that everyone lives forever? It's just where we'll spend it that's the issue. So basically you are saying that works gets you into heaven (reward) or hell (punishment), and grace lets you live forever in whatever place you get to go based on your works? No, works don't get you into heaven and no, not everybody lives forever. Believing in Jesus Christ and that his sacrifice cleanses us and saves us eternally. Paul wrote about those whose works wouldn't stand the test by fire but their souls would be saved because they believed in Jesus Christ. Otherwords they will not be rewarded for their works but they'll have eternal life. Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ or saved by grace, will not have life eternal and are in danger of the second death. Their works will be judged and whatever the Just Judge deems right for their reward, he'll give but not unto eternal life. Likely by them not being in the Book of Life, the Judge will tell them he knows them not and they are in danger of the second death. They usually get rewards for their works while on earth, such as notice amongst men, named great for such deeds etc. That's what I've always said that the workers are being beaten out of rewards after death because they're reaping them through the adulation of their people while in earth. It is right to respect them for their works sake but not as it's been for them in the last two or three generations of workers being rewarded with the best of their needs, adulation, having dining privileges without sharing with the crowd, etc. Well that's totally different from what I understood gammalgubbe saying. It's all so confusing. Guess that's why I'm not a theist. Can't figure anything out.
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Post by snow on Sept 3, 2018 14:18:56 GMT -5
DEAR Lady, the way you perceive what Christians believe, and how I perceive it is considerably different.
Death th to me means separation from my God, eternally, forever. To those blessed with eternal life, it means moving from this awareness to another of promise. Personally, I am very certain I was once there, and grieving over my children I was leaving behind, my God GAVE me the choice to return. I had been taught many things I did not prove true in that experience. On the other hand, I proved many things true by that experience most posting here have dismissed or ridiculed. Be that as it may be.
It is my perception that death to you and all non believers is merely an end to this life as you know it to be, nothing thereafter. I know of no Christian who believes like that. Not one over my entire lifetime. We do not. Neither I nor any other “Christian.” Personally, I believe your eternity separated from God will last until He ends it, if ever. It is NOT what I nor again any other Christian I have ever known would ever chose for you. Personally, I believe any kindness you have ever shown to a believer will not go unrewarded, which to me means you will be thankful for having shown it then.
Now this brings us to the other side, separated by a fixed gulf, to me of souls never having had our choices in life. Personally, again, I believe I will be rewarded for every kindness shown to you and those like you. How? I have NO idea! I just believe in loving kindness. Some here do not believekind I think this way. They simply do not know me, and there is little I can do about that.
Kindest Thoughts and wishes to all of you... DAJ
Thanks for the answer. We can agree on part of that. I believe in loving kindness. I don't care about an afterlife, but I do care how I walk through the one life I do know I have.
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Post by snow on Sept 3, 2018 14:21:05 GMT -5
So you're saying that it's a misprint? He definitely said that he would return before they died. And, why wouldn't Jesus know when he was returning if he is God and knows everything? Misunderstanding and misinterpreting the scriptures. We went over and explained this portion of the scriptures in the past but people don't accept it. Christ/God Living in the body of a man, he had his limitation of knowing things. As a man Jesus couldn't appear and disappear as he wished like after he had received the Resurrection body.
Jesus said he doesn't know the time of his 2nd coming, no man or the angels either. ONLY the Father KNOWS when is for His time to return back on earth to rule and reign with His people. So, men should NOT try to predict the time, it is useless and hopeless, just be READY then it doesn't when He shows up.
Well then I'll just continue living life as I have. Trying to do no harm, loving and helping when I can. I can't say I believe in something I see no evidence for. That would make me a hypocrite.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 14:29:12 GMT -5
Jesus said that few will find the straight and narrow way. He also sad that 'many' will try to enter by the broad gate. I do not know how few the few will be, or how many the many will be, but I suspect these things are relative.
Relative indeed, as most 2x2s are "born-and-raised", and many inter-related! 😂 Ah my dear friend, but how many are the many and how mostly are the most?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 3, 2018 14:41:30 GMT -5
This must be the early early church. hmmmm. How shall we deal with the idea that they sold all they had, had all things in common, and yet apparently had houses to eat in? hmmm. Time to start doubting those doubts, and keeping in our place.
It doesn't say they sold all they had, it says they sold their possessions and goods (likely non-essentials)
As far as I can observe, if you are going to claim that your church is the only true church, you need to have a plan in place for dismissing all those parts of the bible you don't choose to follow, while emphasizing a few verses that you do. It seems to be dealt with thus...
I make no such claim. I do not go to Meetings.
1. Treat the moral instructions of Jesus as they pertain to how a person is to individually live and walk as secondary. In essence, these things only matter if you are in the one true church. It's also helpful to treat grace as something that kicks in after you die.
2. When confronted with something in scripture that you can outwardly do (often instructions to a specific group of people) AND you notice that the majority of churches around you don't do this, make that the "Foundation of the Gospel". Context of the scripture is irrelevant, because after all, God has spoken to very special YOU, and very special YOU now have very special knowledge/wisdom from on high. (Be both exceedingly humble, and exceedingly smug at the same time. You'll fool the right sort of people this way, and keep the wrong sort out)
3. When confronted with scripture that you can outwardly do, but don't do, use your very special wisdom given from on high to very special you to become an expert in biblical context. When people object to this cherry picking, just remember, very special YOU are right. This doubters are worldlings after all, who lack the very special wisdom given to very special (and oh so humble) you.
4. If someone says something that causes you any discomfort in the mind, remember to doubt your doubts. You don't want to have the liberty to think thoughts, after all. Stay in your place, like a sheep.
5. Remember, salvation comes by staying in the fold, one true Way, Truth of God, and Center of God's Will. You might be the only person in your town destined for eternal life. This is actually wonderful news - Jesus said there were many mansions in his house. With any luck, heaven will be so sparsely populated that you can have a summer and a winter mansion.
6. Bearing in mind #5, make sure you don't invite too many people to your church, and make sure you don't evangelize. Best, really, to make sure no one knows you exist. You don't want the "wrong sort" of Christian accidentally joining your True Church. That sort of thing happens, and you may not get that Summer mansion. Make sure you convince yourself and others in the true church that you actually are seeking lost souls, however. How can you reconcile this obvious disconnect? With man's knowledge, it is impossible. Best to doubt your doubts. Keep in your place.
7. Just remember, Jesus died for all, but only very special you found the right loophole that will save you. Just don't tell anyone for goodness sakes! Jesus said that few will find the straight and narrow way. He also sad that 'many' will try to enter by the broad gate. I do not know how few the few will be, or how many the many will be, but I suspect these things are relative.
God has set his elects and their salvation before the world ever began. He also has set each ones time to be in earth so that he'll have his presence across the earth at all times.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 3, 2018 14:43:47 GMT -5
Relative indeed, as most 2x2s are "born-and-raised", and many inter-related! 😂 Ah my dear friend, but how many are the many and how mostly are the most? John saw them in heaven in white robes. Unnumerable as the sands if the sea but a mere drop in the bucket when numbered with the unsaved.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 14:49:09 GMT -5
Jesus said that few will find the straight and narrow way. He also sad that 'many' will try to enter by the broad gate. I do not know how few the few will be, or how many the many will be, but I suspect these things are relative.
God has set his elects and their salvation before the world ever began. He also has set each ones time to be in earth so that he'll have his presence across the earth at all times. Can you explain this a bit further Shaz, perhaps even a reference of two?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 14:52:18 GMT -5
Ah my dear friend, but how many are the many and how mostly are the most? John saw them in heaven in white robes. Unnumerable as the sands if the sea but a mere drop in the bucket when numbered with the unsaved. I don't doubt you, but can you please reference this. It would be interesting to study a bit further.
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Post by snow on Sept 3, 2018 14:53:31 GMT -5
This must be the early early church. hmmmm. How shall we deal with the idea that they sold all they had, had all things in common, and yet apparently had houses to eat in? hmmm. Time to start doubting those doubts, and keeping in our place.
It doesn't say they sold all they had, it says they sold their possessions and goods (likely non-essentials)
As far as I can observe, if you are going to claim that your church is the only true church, you need to have a plan in place for dismissing all those parts of the bible you don't choose to follow, while emphasizing a few verses that you do. It seems to be dealt with thus...
I make no such claim. I do not go to Meetings.
1. Treat the moral instructions of Jesus as they pertain to how a person is to individually live and walk as secondary. In essence, these things only matter if you are in the one true church. It's also helpful to treat grace as something that kicks in after you die.
2. When confronted with something in scripture that you can outwardly do (often instructions to a specific group of people) AND you notice that the majority of churches around you don't do this, make that the "Foundation of the Gospel". Context of the scripture is irrelevant, because after all, God has spoken to very special YOU, and very special YOU now have very special knowledge/wisdom from on high. (Be both exceedingly humble, and exceedingly smug at the same time. You'll fool the right sort of people this way, and keep the wrong sort out)
3. When confronted with scripture that you can outwardly do, but don't do, use your very special wisdom given from on high to very special you to become an expert in biblical context. When people object to this cherry picking, just remember, very special YOU are right. This doubters are worldlings after all, who lack the very special wisdom given to very special (and oh so humble) you.
4. If someone says something that causes you any discomfort in the mind, remember to doubt your doubts. You don't want to have the liberty to think thoughts, after all. Stay in your place, like a sheep.
5. Remember, salvation comes by staying in the fold, one true Way, Truth of God, and Center of God's Will. You might be the only person in your town destined for eternal life. This is actually wonderful news - Jesus said there were many mansions in his house. With any luck, heaven will be so sparsely populated that you can have a summer and a winter mansion.
6. Bearing in mind #5, make sure you don't invite too many people to your church, and make sure you don't evangelize. Best, really, to make sure no one knows you exist. You don't want the "wrong sort" of Christian accidentally joining your True Church. That sort of thing happens, and you may not get that Summer mansion. Make sure you convince yourself and others in the true church that you actually are seeking lost souls, however. How can you reconcile this obvious disconnect? With man's knowledge, it is impossible. Best to doubt your doubts. Keep in your place.
7. Just remember, Jesus died for all, but only very special you found the right loophole that will save you. Just don't tell anyone for goodness sakes! Jesus said that few will find the straight and narrow way. He also sad that 'many' will try to enter by the broad gate. I do not know how few the few will be, or how many the many will be, but I suspect these things are relative.
Knowing how mansions work (theoretically of course) aren't the broad doors the main front doors where people are accepted and welcomed? And the narrow doors are usually in the back just off the staff quarters and kitchen?
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