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Post by speak on Sept 1, 2018 2:23:23 GMT -5
Who said the apostles didn't reach the people? man you like to twist what people write. Did Jesus speak in tongues? If you read your Bible you will notice that it is God who draws. You know I have a great problem with you, it is that in most every post you write there is always a critical note. An example of loving you neighbor no doubt? ? You wrote that "Speaking in tongues is just babble which nobody understands, I doubt Jesus spoke in tongues, how could He reach the people if He did? same with the workers today it would be a worthless exersize. And there are signs, wonders and healings today it is that you don't recognize them or you can't see them". No one is twisting except you. You wrote that tongues would be a worthless exercise if the workers used it, and that Jesus could not reach people if he spoke in tongues. As I said tongues were given as a sign of the Holy Spirit which was only sent after the resurrection. The apostles had it in their ministry and it was not a worthless exercise as they reached a lot of people. As I stated, the workers are not reaching people so is it a worthless exercise? I see you do not like to be challenged, sorry to rock the boat. God draws people in many different ways. No I did not know you had a problem with me as we have not spoken before. Talk about negative, isn't it the pot calling the kettle black? And sorry I am not your neighbour in any sense of the word except we are on this board, if that makes me a neighbour. I doubt if we are even on the same planet. Now if you could please to be so kind as to show me where I stated word for word that Jesus could not reach people if he spoke in tongues. If not you have twisted my written words and have turned my words into lie, shame. Which one's, how many. Which people did they reach with tongues? and how many? Challenge all you like I really don't care. How many ways of Christ are there? Pity because Jesus said you should be. You on Mars?
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Post by Grant on Sept 1, 2018 3:28:36 GMT -5
You wrote that "Speaking in tongues is just babble which nobody understands, I doubt Jesus spoke in tongues, how could He reach the people if He did? same with the workers today it would be a worthless exersize. And there are signs, wonders and healings today it is that you don't recognize them or you can't see them". No one is twisting except you. You wrote that tongues would be a worthless exercise if the workers used it, and that Jesus could not reach people if he spoke in tongues. As I said tongues were given as a sign of the Holy Spirit which was only sent after the resurrection. The apostles had it in their ministry and it was not a worthless exercise as they reached a lot of people. As I stated, the workers are not reaching people so is it a worthless exercise? I see you do not like to be challenged, sorry to rock the boat. God draws people in many different ways. No I did not know you had a problem with me as we have not spoken before. Talk about negative, isn't it the pot calling the kettle black? And sorry I am not your neighbour in any sense of the word except we are on this board, if that makes me a neighbour. I doubt if we are even on the same planet. Can't you answer a simple question? Did Jesus speak in tongues?Read my post. I said that tongues did not happen until after the resurrection. Jesus left them and sent the Holy Spirit in his place. Who was resurrected if it was not Jesus? He did not speak in tongues but sent the Holy Spirit and those who believed spoke in tongues.
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Post by Grant on Sept 1, 2018 3:34:13 GMT -5
You wrote that "Speaking in tongues is just babble which nobody understands, I doubt Jesus spoke in tongues, how could He reach the people if He did? same with the workers today it would be a worthless exersize. And there are signs, wonders and healings today it is that you don't recognize them or you can't see them". No one is twisting except you. You wrote that tongues would be a worthless exercise if the workers used it, and that Jesus could not reach people if he spoke in tongues. As I said tongues were given as a sign of the Holy Spirit which was only sent after the resurrection. The apostles had it in their ministry and it was not a worthless exercise as they reached a lot of people. As I stated, the workers are not reaching people so is it a worthless exercise? I see you do not like to be challenged, sorry to rock the boat. God draws people in many different ways. No I did not know you had a problem with me as we have not spoken before. Talk about negative, isn't it the pot calling the kettle black? And sorry I am not your neighbour in any sense of the word except we are on this board, if that makes me a neighbour. I doubt if we are even on the same planet. Now if you could please to be so kind as to show me where I stated word for word that Jesus could not reach people if he spoke in tongues. If not you have twisted my written words and have turned my words into lie, shame. Which one's, how many. Which people did they reach with tongues? and how many? Challenge all you like I really don't care. How many ways of Christ are there? Pity because Jesus said you should be. You on Mars? You wrote above " How could Jesus reach people if he did (speak in tongues). Unless you change your attitude, i will not be responding to anymore of your posts on this subject. I understand it's night in your part of the world. Sleep well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 7:36:53 GMT -5
Can't you answer a simple question? Did Jesus speak in tongues?Read my post. I said that tongues did not happen until after the resurrection. Jesus left them and sent the Holy Spirit in his place. Who was resurrected if it was not Jesus? He did not speak in tongues but sent the Holy Spirit and those who believed spoke in tongues. define tongues.... was it the current meaningless babble that some engage in nowadays? or was it simply knowing different worldly languages such as greek, egyptian, latin, aramaic, hebrew, persian? OR was it simply speaking with the new understanding of Christianity and Christs words?
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Post by nathan on Sept 1, 2018 7:54:55 GMT -5
The tongues in I Cor. was about speaking in human known languages (NOT the Jiberish non-sense we see many Pentecostal are doing in their church services), where others in the meetings had NOT learned the languages so Paul asked to have interpreters so those in the gathering could understand what the speakers are saying! If there was NO interpreter in the room then the speaker should not try to speak in languages that nobody could understand. 1 Corinthains 13:1, Paul said, though I speak with the tongues of men and angels ...... and have not charity...... Is the language of angels a known language? Some languages were known some were not. Many times it was not. Yes, angels have their own languages, but when they have a message from God to deliver to men, they ALWAYS speak in whatever the humans languages so the humans can RECEIVE and UNDERSTAND the message given to them by God. What good if the angels speak in Jiberish-untelligent-unrecognizeable language then the listeners will say he is a MAD, crazy angel.
This is what happening in the Pentecostal churches, hardly anyone can understand what these speakers in tongues are saying, then how can anyone say AMEN! or give praises to God to what they are saying/jiberish sounds.
The gift of tongues was part of the New Testament church life. Some miracles, some tongues, etc. Tongues was a sign that the Holy spirit was there. It was not forbidden except if someone was speaking it out loud in the church and no one was there to interpret it. Even if it was other languages, the people had not learned it. The apostolic church had tongues and miracles evident. A person cannot call themselves the apostolic ministry if they do not have these signs in their ministry. It was obviously in the New Testament church. I have no problem if churches do or do not have these signs but I have a problem with people saying they are a continuation of the apostolic ministry but do not have a ministry like the apostles had. Come to think of it, it is only Nathan who claims it is the apostlic ministry although the workers claimed in the past to be a continuation of it but even now most acknowledge they were started by men just over 100 years ago. The gift of Jiberrish speaking in tongues today, have caused A LOT of chaos and confusion... There is no edification to MOST people in the room, because nobody can understand what they are SAYING even among themselves. God is NOT the author of confusion but of Order.
Tongues means languages... NOT Jibberish, unrecognizable sounds. Paul said he spoke 3 or 4 human languages more than those in Corinth but when he came to their worship gathering he spoke in humans tongues/languages, so the people in the room can understand the messages or spoken words he has for them.
It seems you don't understand the apostolic gifts... We read in the book of Acts Timothy, Silas, Titus were called apostles just like Paul but they don't have the gifts of healing, raised the dead, heal the blinds. Paul wrote to Timothy and asked him to take some wine for his often stomach ailment. Timothy had no gift of healing because he could NOT heal himself. There were apostles sick and almost died and Paul could NOT do anything for them, just pray for them.
Some gifts were ONLY temporary signs to fulfill scriptures such as healing, performing miracles, raise the dead like Jesus and the 12, 70 apostles to show proof to the children of Israel in those day! that Jesus was/is the promised Messiah. Once Jesus and the early apostles proved their point, there is no more need for miracles signs of speaking in miracles languages that people can hear and understand exactly what the message was for them like in Acts 2, 10 and 19.
If the workers, preachers, and priests have these gifts of speaking in KNOWN languages like in Acts then they don't need to go to language schools to learn different languages to preach among the native people today!
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Post by nathan on Sept 1, 2018 10:08:40 GMT -5
And you claim to be following the apostolic ministry. The apostles were a weird bunch? It was to be in order in church meetings and interpreted, not creating confusion. *** You and I don't see this happening in the speaking in tongues speakers in today! There are so much confusion to those who attending the services. The speakers don't know what he/she is saying and neither they can't interpret the message so people can understand and get edifices. When I was a Pentecostal remember I spoke in gibberish tongue and I didn't know what I was saying and I coudn't interpret it either. I was confused so those around me. I brought my friends to those services and they were scared and terrified. God's Spirit brings peacefullnes and calmness NOT fear and confusion to those around them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 12:02:12 GMT -5
Since the speaking of tongues was evidence that the spirit was upon them, maybe people who cannot understand the speaking of tongues and think that it's just gibberish simply don't have the spirit to translate for them?
I can't understand when they are speaking in tongues either, but playing early saints advocate...
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Post by Grant on Sept 1, 2018 12:10:15 GMT -5
We read in Acts that people around them thought they were drunk with wine when they heard those who the Holy Spirit had fallen on speaking in tongues, so it's no wonder people today think it's gibberish when they don't understand it. That's how it sounds to a lot of people even in Bible days. Acts 2 verse 13 onwards.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 12:22:21 GMT -5
We read in Acts that people around them thought they were drunk with wine when they heard those who the Holy Spirit had fallen on speaking in tongues, so it's no wonder people today think it's gibberish when they don't understand it. That's how it sounds to a lot of people even in Bible days. i had a father who was a drunkard and he rarely made sense but he never engaged in babble that passes for speaking in tongues we see today....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 1, 2018 12:27:06 GMT -5
And you can meet together anywhere too, but you guys say it has to be a home. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there i am in the midst. Nothing about it must be a home Nathan said they went to the temple to teach and that everything else was in the home. No, the Bible also tells us they went to the temple daily to pray. Also if we look at the apostles they were traveling evangelists preaching to the world, the workers are not. They just stay in one place sheltered from the world only preaching to their own. The great commission was to go, not stay. and you ex's say praying publicly was wrong in Jesus eyes and say doing so at convention and in the home is wrong...how much more trouble would they have gotten into doing it in the temple in those days since the temple was no longer a valid place of worship or prayer with Jesus death and resurrection and the vail being rent in twain... It's important to remember that the apostles were Jews as well as mist of Christians at that point. These Apostles and Christians clung to the old Mosaic law. So they continued as they'd been taught as little ones. And remember that Jesus, himself went to the Temple regularly as male Jews were to do. Jesus said that the law of Moses would not pass until every jot and tittle was fulfilled. It was during the time of Paul's work amongst the Gentiles that even Paul as well as the other Christ followers learned that the old law had been fulfilled by Jesus Christ and as Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that worshipping God in the temple or I the Mountain as the Samaritans we're doing would not be, but worshipping God in spirit and in truth wherever we are. So mtgs. In churches, homes, temples, mountains, or anywhere one might be wasn't required but to worship God in spirit and in truth, for God is spirit.
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Post by Grant on Sept 1, 2018 12:29:25 GMT -5
We read in Acts that people around them thought they were drunk with wine when they heard those who the Holy Spirit had fallen on speaking in tongues, so it's no wonder people today think it's gibberish when they don't understand it. That's how it sounds to a lot of people even in Bible days. i had a father who was a drunkard and he rarely made sense but he never engaged in babble that passes for speaking in tongues we see today.... Like I added above read Acts 2 verse 13 onwards. There were obviously people then and now who can't discern the difference.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 1, 2018 12:38:50 GMT -5
you can pray anywhere.... But it does say to not pray in public, at least not out loud. No one in Christianity follows that rule. I'm not sure what you're saying. As for myself, I pray in my secret place, quietly sometimes, weeping sometimes, and rejoicing other times. No one but God knows about it. I'm telling it now to assure you that there are people that know praying in the secret place gets better results, usually.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 1, 2018 12:48:27 GMT -5
It does not say which temple Philemon prayed in. It just says he remembered them in his prayers. I don't even know if the temple had been destroyed by the time he came along. What we do know is that the believers sold everything and had everything in common and continued to meet together every day in the temple courts. There were signs and wonders, healings and speaking in tongues. All which the workers do not do yet claim to be copying the apostles ministry. The believers in Jerusalem Acts 2-6 (Pentecostal feast) SOLD some of their property, land and laid the money at the apostles feet so they could divide up the money to help 3000 and 5000 had converted to become Christ's followers. They want to stay a little longer in to learn more about Jesus and his teachings from the apostles before they were heading back homes to their countries!
The communion living was a one time thing!Actually they became a commune because they believed Jesus would return soon and they wanted to be together for that. Also it says for fear of the Jews, they met in the places they lived like their homes or upper rooms they'd rented.
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Post by snow on Sept 1, 2018 13:20:07 GMT -5
In a way, isn't that exactly what they believe? After all if he was fully human and not a god like some Christian denominations believe, then he would have to be the first worker if there is an unbroken line of workers from the days of Jesus to this day and age. Yes, that’s what they seem to believe as Nate has indicated. They didn’t believe that in 1900 but it indicates how screwed up their belief system has become! Having said that I know a few professing folk who would completely reject that Jesus was the first worker. Others believe that standing next to their favourite worker is just like standing next to Jesus! A very muddled belief system. It's a belief. When beliefs can't be backed up with facts, they become muddled belief systems.
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Post by snow on Sept 1, 2018 13:31:51 GMT -5
But it does say to not pray in public, at least not out loud. No one in Christianity follows that rule. I'm not sure what you're saying. As for myself, I pray in my secret place, quietly sometimes, weeping sometimes, and rejoicing other times. No one but God knows about it. I'm telling it now to assure you that there are people that know praying in the secret place gets better results, usually. But when you were a 2x2 you prayed in meetings and at convention etc. People pray in churches (public) all the time. Not what Jesus said. He said keep it private. If people did more of that and didn't think that their prayers should be allowed everywhere we'd have fewer clashes in this world. Christians don't want to me made to pray like a Muslim and Muslims don't want to pray like Christians. And Atheists don't want to listen to either group praying. But the matter is solved by Jesus. He said don't pray in public.
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Post by snow on Sept 1, 2018 13:34:38 GMT -5
The believers in Jerusalem Acts 2-6 (Pentecostal feast) SOLD some of their property, land and laid the money at the apostles feet so they could divide up the money to help 3000 and 5000 had converted to become Christ's followers. They want to stay a little longer in to learn more about Jesus and his teachings from the apostles before they were heading back homes to their countries!
The communion living was a one time thing! Actually they became a commune because they believed Jesus would return soon and they wanted to be together for that. Also it says for fear of the Jews, they met in the places they lived like their homes or upper rooms they'd rented. This is true STR. He said he would return before they died. So they did what made sense, since they wouldn't be needing anything earthly for long. They took their possessions and made them communal just waiting for Jesus to return like he promised. Didn't happen, so people started getting married again, bought possessions etc. and started writing script about how Jesus would return. Some day.
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Post by nathan on Sept 1, 2018 16:00:47 GMT -5
Since the speaking of tongues was evidence that the spirit was upon them, maybe people who cannot understand the speaking of tongues and think that it's just gibberish simply don't have the spirit to translate for them? I can't understand when they are speaking in tongues either, but playing early saints advocate... ** In the book of Acts 2, 10 and 19 The early apostles and followers of jesus spoke in known and intelligent languages where the speakers and listeners understand each others. There was no confusion, it was a miracle tounges. However, the tongues in I Cor. was not miracle tongues like in Acts 2,10,19 but humans languages.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 1, 2018 16:12:14 GMT -5
Since the speaking of tongues was evidence that the spirit was upon them, maybe people who cannot understand the speaking of tongues and think that it's just gibberish simply don't have the spirit to translate for them? I can't understand when they are speaking in tongues either, but playing early saints advocate... ** In the book of Acts 2, 10 and 19 The early apostles and followers of jesus spoke in known and intelligent languages where the speakers and listeners understand each others. There was no confusion, it was a miracle tounges. However, the tongues in I Cor. was not miracle tongues like in Acts 2,10,19 but humans languages. This I agree with.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 1, 2018 16:37:38 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you're saying. As for myself, I pray in my secret place, quietly sometimes, weeping sometimes, and rejoicing other times. No one but God knows about it. I'm telling it now to assure you that there are people that know praying in the secret place gets better results, usually. But when you were a 2x2 you prayed in meetings and at convention etc. People pray in churches (public) all the time. Not what Jesus said. He said keep it private. If people did more of that and didn't think that their prayers should be allowed everywhere we'd have fewer clashes in this world. Christians don't want to me made to pray like a Muslim and Muslims don't want to pray like Christians. And Atheists don't want to listen to either group praying. But the matter is solved by Jesus. He said don't pray in public. Jesus said not to stand in public and pray such things as the man who prayed and was thankful he wasn't like the sinners wheras Jesus' comparison to a man who was afraid to lift his head and he prayed for Mercy because he was a sinner. I haven't stood on the street and prayed as either one of those men. I prayed where it shouldn't have been offensive to anyone because prayer was part of the religious service, such as conv and home mtgs. If there were people there that it offended, I'd opine they were in the wrong place not me. Jesus prayed. He prayed at the last Supper, and in the synagogues and temple, when he was participating. I also think he would say "I pray..." When he was speaking to or for someone. His objection was acainst speaking in bragging or such tones to indicate the prayerful one was lording it over others or better in God's sight.
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Post by nathan on Sept 1, 2018 17:07:40 GMT -5
Actually they became a commune because they believed Jesus would return soon and they wanted to be together for that. Also it says for fear of the Jews, they met in the places they lived like their homes or upper rooms they'd rented. This is true STR. He said he would return before they died. So they did what made sense, since they wouldn't be needing anything earthly for long. They took their possessions and made them communal just waiting for Jesus to return like he promised. Didn't happen, so people started getting married again, bought possessions etc. and started writing script about how Jesus would return. Some day. Many of the apostles and people through the centuries misunderstood and misinterpreted what Jesus had said, because even He himself doesn't KNOW the time of His 2nd coming. How could he say he would return before they died. Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 This gospel of the kingdom shall PREACH and be a Witnesses to ALL nations then shall the END comes. The gospel has NOT preach to ALL nations, yet so how can Jesus return before they died? Most of the apostles and disciples died by the end of the 1st century.... and now we are living in the 21st century. Jesus will RETURN but the time is up to God the Father to decide.
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Post by nathan on Sept 1, 2018 17:28:20 GMT -5
The tongues in I Cor. was about speaking in human known languages (NOT the Jiberish non-sense we see many Pentecostal are doing in their church services), where others in the meetings had NOT learned the languages so Paul asked to have interpreters so those in the gathering could understand what the speakers are saying! If there was NO interpreter in the room then the speaker should not try to speak in languages that nobody could understand. 1 Corinthains 13:1, Paul said, though I speak with the tongues of men and angels ...... and have not charity...... Is the language of angels a known language? Some languages were known some were not. Many times it was not. The gift of tongues was part of the New Testament church life. Some miracles, some tongues, etc. Tongues was a sign that the Holy spirit was there. It was not forbidden except if someone was speaking it out loud in the church and no one was there to interpret it. Even if it was other languages, the people had not learned it. The apostolic church had tongues and miracles evident. A person cannot call themselves the apostolic ministry if they do not have these signs in their ministry. It was obviously in the New Testament church. I have no problem if churches do or do not have these signs but I have a problem with people saying they are a continuation of the apostolic ministry but do not have a ministry like the apostles had. Come to think of it, it is only Nathan who claims it is the apostlic ministry although the workers claimed in the past to be a continuation of it but even now most acknowledge they were started by men just over 100 years ago. I first read the workers are New Testament apostolic ministry mentioned in Cornelius Jaenen/Canada book the Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship book, where he wrote about John Govan had the 2x2 apostolic itinerant ministry... William Irvine was part of the Faith Mission apostolic ministry preachers.
William Irvine and his Faith Mission co-workers brought many people to follow Jesus and many of the converts became 2x2 workers and the friends in 1900s. The 2x2 workers continued using 2x2 Faith Mission apostolic ministry method in their group.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 19:41:50 GMT -5
Tongues was a temporary reversal of what happened after the Tower of Babel.
If you don't believe me, ask me!
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Post by Get off of TMB on Sept 1, 2018 19:44:05 GMT -5
Other churches meet in homes.
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janj
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Post by janj on Sept 1, 2018 20:00:09 GMT -5
And you claim to be following the apostolic ministry. The apostles were a weird bunch? It was to be in order in church meetings and interpreted, not creating confusion. . The 2x2 ministry is all about themselves and their authority. It’s not about worshipping and serving the risen Lord and upholding His name. IMO a statement like this is dangerously judgemental.
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Post by speak on Sept 1, 2018 20:05:18 GMT -5
Now if you could please to be so kind as to show me where I stated word for word that Jesus could not reach people if he spoke in tongues. If not you have twisted my written words and have turned my words into lie, shame. Which one's, how many. Which people did they reach with tongues? and how many? Challenge all you like I really don't care. How many ways of Christ are there? Pity because Jesus said you should be. You on Mars? You wrote above " How could Jesus reach people if he did (speak in tongues). Unless you change your attitude, i will not be responding to anymore of your posts on this subject. I understand it's night in your part of the world. Sleep well. " How could Jesus reach people if he did (speak in tongues) is not the same as that Jesus could not reach people if he spoke in tongues. Understand?
Oh well you will do as you wish. And you still could not/would not answer the question Did Jesus speak in tongues. I don't expect an answer because I know you don't know.
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Post by speak on Sept 1, 2018 20:10:16 GMT -5
Tongues was a temporary reversal of what happened after the Tower of Babel. If you don't believe me, ask me! Cheers buddy
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 20:37:24 GMT -5
Other churches meet in homes. yes there are a few and even a few new denominations that want to meet just in homes. but generally speaking those that meet in homes are just waiting till they have enough money to build a church building...
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Post by nathan on Sept 1, 2018 20:39:20 GMT -5
Tongues was a temporary reversal of what happened after the Tower of Babel. If you don't believe me, ask me! Acts 2, 10, and 19 the Miracle tongues was the reverse of what happened at the Tower of Babel. The Miracle tongues in Acts sent people away rejoicing, praising God. Tower of Babel God confused their languages so they could NOT communicate and understand each another, and they went away unhappy.
The tongues of the Pentecostal speakers today, when people go away they scratching their heads with confusion?
The tongues that the 2x2 use in their worship Sunday morning meetings, people go away rejoicing because they understand the message God has for them clearly.
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