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Post by Get off of TMB on Aug 30, 2018 14:55:11 GMT -5
YouTube · Ken Zenk
21:07 57 Philemon - J Vernon Mcgee - Thru the Bible Apr 1, 2014https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DH63ejKO6qhw&ved=2ahUKEwjP_LmAx5XdAhVpUd8KHTJ2Cp4QwqsBMAJ6BAgKEAU&usg=AOvVaw22LEPb2xFtNsnKVoCcRgeM
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Post by Get off of TMB on Aug 30, 2018 14:55:27 GMT -5
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Post by Get off of TMB on Aug 30, 2018 14:57:57 GMT -5
It is about 10 minutes into it that he deals with the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 16:24:21 GMT -5
yes it took awhile to get to it...but glad he did acknowledge that it was a church in the home...its actually mentioned 3-4 times in the NT BTW...
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Post by Grant on Aug 30, 2018 17:01:32 GMT -5
Those were in the days of persecution.
Also Christianity was new and they started meeting in the home as they had no where else to meet. Then they appointed elders and decons and those over the meetings and church affairs.
They grew and in places where it was safer they began meeting in the open eventually building their own larger buildings to meet in rather than just being confined to the few they were meeting with. Makes sense. Why isolate yourself to a dozen people a week when a larger building could accommodate more people.
When you think about it, it is likely one of the reasons the workers group is not growing because of lack of input outside of their small meeting. Imagine hearing the same things from the same dozen people every week. Gospel meetings are for outsiders and not for teaching so not much meat there.
Convention is the only place where they get any teaching.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 17:36:28 GMT -5
Those were in the days of persecution. one could ASSume that was the reason but one would be guessing at best....
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2018 18:20:19 GMT -5
Those were in the days of persecution. Also Christianity was new and they started meeting in the home as they had no where else to meet. Then they appointed elders and decons and those over the meetings and church affairs. They grew and in places where it was safer they began meeting in the open eventually building their own larger buildings to meet in rather than just being confined to the few they were meeting with. Makes sense. Why isolate yourself to a dozen people a week when a larger building could accommodate more people. When you think about it, it is likely one of the reasons the workers group is not growing because of lack of input outside of their small meeting. Imagine hearing the same things from the same dozen people every week. Gospel meetings are for outsiders and not for teaching so not much meat there. Convention is the only place where they get any teaching. You don't KNOW your church history very good. You know mostly the main stream Christianity RCC and Protestants in the 16-21st century churches that you read in books. You were a 2x2 and still don't understand the workers teachings and why they operate the way they do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 19:59:09 GMT -5
Didn't they heal people back then?
Acts 2:46 "Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts"
For them to fulfill the very earliest Church, they would have to publicly meet every single day in the religious Temple. Then they would eat together in their homes. So, the two by two style of Fellowship has the earliest Church correct when they have potlucks.
Oh those false churches! Misinterpreting scripture. They think they have to Worship in homes, when the early church really met every single day in the temple. So glad I'm not part of those false churches that have it all wrong.
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2018 21:57:12 GMT -5
Didn't they heal people back then? Acts 2:46 "Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts" For them to fulfill the very earliest Church, they would have to publicly meet every single day in the religious Temple. Then they would eat together in their homes. So, the two by two style of Fellowship has the earliest Church correct when they have potlucks. Oh those false churches! Misinterpreting scripture. They think they have to Worship in homes, when the early church really met every single day in the temple. So glad I'm not part of those false churches that have it all wrong. In those days, the apostles and believers went to the temple court yard to teach people about Jesus was the Messiah. The followers of Jesus broke bread in the believers homes NOT in the temple court yards. Jesus and Paul went to those places like the temple court yards, or the synagogues to make converts or find followers for God and Jesus.
We read in Acts 1 and the rest of the book of Acts and the apostles epistles, the apostles and disciples gathered in the homes of believers to Pray/praising God together, break bread/Eucharist or partake Christ's Passover with one another, sharing God's words, encouraging each others to continue in the Lord. (I Cor. chapters 11-14).
This New Testament of fellowship has continued through the centuries by the true believers and worshipers of God... Jesus established iy in Luke 22 Christ's Passover meals or fellowship of believers to come together to worship the Godhead in Spirit and in Truth until He comes again to be King of kings and LORD of lords in the Universe!
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Post by Grant on Aug 30, 2018 22:33:19 GMT -5
They went to the temple daily to pray.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 22:36:04 GMT -5
They went to the temple daily to pray. you can pray anywhere....
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Post by Grant on Aug 30, 2018 22:48:32 GMT -5
And you can meet together anywhere too, but you guys say it has to be a home. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there i am in the midst. Nothing about it must be a home
Nathan said they went to the temple to teach and that everything else was in the home. No, the Bible also tells us they went to the temple daily to pray.
Also if we look at the apostles they were traveling evangelists preaching to the world, the workers are not. They just stay in one place sheltered from the world only preaching to their own.
The great commission was to go, not stay.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 22:55:52 GMT -5
And you can meet together anywhere too, but you guys say it has to be a home. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there i am in the midst. Nothing about it must be a home Nathan said they went to the temple to teach and that everything else was in the home. No, the Bible also tells us they went to the temple daily to pray. Also if we look at the apostles they were traveling evangelists preaching to the world, the workers are not. They just stay in one place sheltered from the world only preaching to their own. The great commission was to go, not stay. and you ex's say praying publicly was wrong in Jesus eyes and say doing so at convention and in the home is wrong...how much more trouble would they have gotten into doing it in the temple in those days since the temple was no longer a valid place of worship or prayer with Jesus death and resurrection and the vail being rent in twain...
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2018 23:40:38 GMT -5
And you can meet together anywhere too, but you guys say it has to be a home. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there i am in the midst. Nothing about it must be a home Nathan said they went to the temple to teach and that everything else was in the home. No, the Bible also tells us they went to the temple daily to pray. Also if we look at the apostles they were traveling evangelists preaching to the world, the workers are not. They just stay in one place sheltered from the world only preaching to their own. The great commission was to go, not stay. hmmmm... was To go, Where are they going to spend for the nights? Don't they ever rest, and eat?
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2018 23:42:28 GMT -5
And you can meet together anywhere too, but you guys say it has to be a home. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there i am in the midst. Nothing about it must be a home Nathan said they went to the temple to teach and that everything else was in the home. No, the Bible also tells us they went to the temple daily to pray. Also if we look at the apostles they were traveling evangelists preaching to the world, the workers are not. They just stay in one place sheltered from the world only preaching to their own. The great commission was to go, not stay. and you ex's say praying publicly was wrong in Jesus eyes and say doing so at convention and in the home is wrong...how much more trouble would they have gotten into doing it in the temple in those days since the temple was no longer a valid place of worship or prayer with Jesus death and resurrection and the vail being rent in twain... Amen, Wally.. Jesus KNEW and told the disciples in Matthew 24 about the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed/burned to the ground and that was fulfilled in A.D. 70 by the Romans army. That was why, Jesus established Luke 22 Christ Passover so the Church/assembly of the New Testament followers were able to meet in the homes of believers to pray and to worship God in Spirit and in Truth until He comes again to be King of kings on the earth/Universe.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2018 0:02:27 GMT -5
Those were in the days of persecution. one could ASSume that was the reason but one would be guessing at best.... It's not an assumption that Christians were persecuted to go underground in Bible times throughout the Roman Empire. The Roman government severely punished people who would not honor all the gods being worshiped throughout the empire. Where they weren't restricted by Roman law for worshiping publicly was in Palestine, which wasn't a province in the Roman Empire but a separate territory that the Romans controlled. Jews (or Palestinian Christians as some would prefer to call them) were free to keep Jewish law as long as they didn't show any sign of revolt against the Roman government. We don't read of house worship being instituted in Biblical Palestine.
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Post by nathan on Aug 31, 2018 0:19:57 GMT -5
one could ASSume that was the reason but one would be guessing at best.... It's not an assumption that Christians were persecuted to go underground in Bible times throughout the Roman Empire. The Roman government severely punished people who would not honor all the gods being worshiped throughout the empire. Where they weren't restricted by Roman law for worshiping publicly was in Palestine, which wasn't a province in the Roman Empire but a separate territory that the Romans controlled. Jews (or Palestinian Christians as some would prefer to call them) were free to keep Jewish law as long as they didn't show any sign of revolt against the Roman government. We don't read of house worship being instituted in Biblical Palestine. Then Read Acts 1:12-20 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Then READ another part in Acts 2:41-42 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
~~ It seemed the apostles and disciples started to follow the instruction of Jesus... Christ's Passover Luke 22 with the apostles and followers of Christ praying in the homes of believers, and making the church matters in the home of believers in Jerusalem.... and later on throughout the known world of the apostles.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 0:29:34 GMT -5
one could ASSume that was the reason but one would be guessing at best.... It's not an assumption that Christians were persecuted to go underground in Bible times throughout the Roman Empire. The Roman government severely punished people who would not honor all the gods being worshiped throughout the empire. Where they weren't restricted by Roman law for worshiping publicly was in Palestine, which wasn't a province in the Roman Empire but a separate territory that the Romans controlled. Jews (or Palestinian Christians as some would prefer to call them) were free to keep Jewish law as long as they didn't show any sign of revolt against the Roman government. We don't read of house worship being instituted in Biblical Palestine. just to be clear i didn't say it was an assumption that they were persecuted, i said that the reasons for home worship was ASSumed or guessing at best....
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2018 1:13:59 GMT -5
Who said it was wrong to pray at convention or in the home meetings? Never heard if that before. People pray at church and home meetings all the time.
The temple was where people prayed so why would they get into trouble going there to pray. Everyone was doing it. Who said they were praying out loud. My guess is that they prayed quietly like people do when they might pray in a church alone.
Nathan where is your Faith. Where would they stay you ask? Jesus had no where to lay his head. They stayed anywhere and everywhere. Who ever would give them money or a bed or even outside if necessary. The early workers did it but the never changing way has changed and workers no longer go out by faith.
The upper room didn't seem like a house to me. They stayed in places like inns. You wouldn't fit 120 into a house today. So it seems like they met in large buildings.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 1:18:12 GMT -5
Who said it was wrong to pray at convention or in the home meetings? Never heard if that before. People pray at church and home meetings all the time. The temple was where people prayed so why would they get into trouble going there to pray. Everyone was doing it. Who said they were praying out loud. My guess is that they prayed quietly like people do when they might pray in a church alone. Nathan where is your Faith. Where would they stay you ask? Jesus had no where to lay his head. They stayed anywhere and everywhere. Who ever would give them money or a bed or even outside if necessary. The early workers did it but the never changing way has changed and workers no longer go out by faith. right you've never heard ex's on here complain about the praying in public issue?... you have no idea what the workers are doing in areas you have not been too...MAYBE you had a couple lazy workers in your area but thats your area not mine or anyone elses....
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2018 1:26:26 GMT -5
I certainly know how the workers live. I've lived in 2 countries and stayed in lots. Are you saying that the workers don't live with the friends in your area and go out on the streets talking to people about Jesus? Everyone on this board says the same thing that the workers only mix and preach to their own.
In 3rd world countries or where there are no professing people or they're too poor the workers are theyre given money to rent accommodation. All their financial needs are supplied with credit and bank cards at their disposal.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 1:36:55 GMT -5
I certainly know how the workers live. I've lived in 2 countries and stayed in lots. Are you saying that the workers don't live with the friends in your area and go out on the streets talking to people about Jesus? Everyone on this board say the same thing. In 3rd world countries or where there are no professing people or they're too poor the workers are theyre given money to rent accommodation. All their financial needs are supplied with credit and bank cards at their disposal. again your areas not mine...i've seen and heard of workers baching it, living with the friends or even staying a night or 2 at a hotel...a few years ago i've was with workers who went down to the local park and passed out flyers ... has anyone slept out under the stars? i don't know but show me in the bible where its a requirement to only sleep out under the stars.... the only requirement i know of thats being ignored is that they were to stay in one home and not go from home to home....
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2018 1:52:55 GMT -5
No one said it was a requirement to sleep under the stars but I'm sure that there were times they did. I'm sure Jesus and his followers would have stayed up the mountain and slept there the night. It's cooler outside in those hot countries.
Jesus had no where to lay his head. Does that mean he had a nice warm bed to go home too? I lost count how many times at convention I heard workers say that like Jesus they have no where to lay their head.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 2:38:13 GMT -5
No one said it was a requirement to sleep under the stars but I'm sure that there were times they did. I'm sure Jesus and his followers would have stayed up the mountain and slept there the night. It's cooler outside in those hot countries. Jesus had no where to lay his head. Does that mean he had s nice warm bed yo go home too? I lost count how many times at convention I heard workers say that like Jesus they have no where to lay their head. if its not your home is it really your bed and pillow?
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2018 3:40:23 GMT -5
Jesus is not talking about owning his own bed or pillow but is saying he has no where to lay his head. He is not saying he didn't own his own bed and pillow.
If you stay at someone's house you have somewhere to lay your head, do you not? Jesus said he had no where to lay his head. The workers claim that like Jesus they have no where to lay their head which is not true. They sleep in a nice warm bed every night. A big difference to having no where to lay their head.
Plenty of people do not own their own home and plenty of people sleep in other peoples beds.
Your arguments are bordering on ridiculous. You seem to not know the difference between Jesus saying he had no where to lay his head and some one living in other peoples homes. Next you'll be saying perhaps Jesus took his pillow with him in a back pack. I wonder how many workers take their faviourite pillow with them.
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Post by nathan on Aug 31, 2018 6:57:43 GMT -5
Jesus is not talking about owning his own bed or pillow but is saying he has no where to lay his head. He is not saying he didn't own his own bed and pillow. If you stay at someone's house you have somewhere to lay your head, do you not? Jesus said he had no where to lay his head. The workers claim that like Jesus they have no where to lay their head which is not true. They sleep in a nice warm bed every night. A big difference to having no where to lay their head. Plenty of people do not own their own home and plenty of people sleep in other peoples beds. Your arguments are bordering on ridiculous. You seem to not know the difference between Jesus saying he had no where to lay his head and some one living in other peoples homes. Next you'll be saying perhaps Jesus took his pillow with him in a back pack. I wonder how many workers take their faviourite pillow with them. Your understanding of the workers and Jesus are kind of screwed up or NOT totally true according to majority of the workers lifestyle. There are a few ex-workers on the board so they KNOW about these things. So, let me explain... Jesus said he had no where to lay his head, that meant when he started out in the ministry, he LEFT ALL his possession, house if he had it, and occupation behind and went forth preaching the gospel by Faith that God the Father would provide for all his needs, homes to stay in, money to buy food, clothes and so on. Jesus has taught the men and women who God has called to be in the apostolic ministry, God would be taken cares of their daily needs just like He takes care of the birds and the lilies in the fields. Read Matthew 7:24-34.In the beginning when Jesus started in the ministry, he had no wife to bring along, or children, no home of his own, no money, he went in faith because he believed that God will move the hearts of men and women to provide for his daily needs. We read in the gospel the women, and men provided for Jesus daily needs and his followers just like he said it would happened in Matthew 7:24-34. AND is still the same today with majority of the workers!After being in the ministry a few years Jesus said this in John 4 after he had done visited with the Samaritan women and the disciples went into town to buy foods. John 4:34-38 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours. ~~ Many Samaritans made their choice to serve God because Jesus had taken the time to visit with her at the well. Many years later, we read in the book of Acts 8 Philip the evangelist came and preached the gospel to the Samaritans towns and many decided to serve God because Jesus had sown the gospel seeds to the Samaritan women testimony. Today's workers are enjoying homes to sleep, food to eat, cars to drive, money to spend and so on because of the early days had sown the gospel seeds in the hearts of men and women. The early workers slept in the open sky, in the school rooms, the barns or where they can lay their heads for the nights. The workers today are ENJOYING or reaping the benefits of the early days workers labored... Just like the apostles enjoy the fruits of harvest because of Jesus labor or spending time with the woman at the well.
Like Wally has said, there are some lazy workers among us, who don't like to go out and search for the lost sheep, lost coins and prodigals.... but majority of the workers do go out looking for people to tell about the gospel of Jesus Christ. When I was in the work we constantly busy 7 days a week, having bible studies with people, visit the sick in the nursing homes, hospitals, the elderly, or anyone wants to hear the gospel. Majority of the workers are following Jesus example for being NOT married in the ministry, they are NOT following Peter, who was an married apostle. The unmarried workers want to dedicate their whole life to God and God's people. Married workers have their attention are divided with trying to please the wife and their children if they had it. Paul wrote about this in I Cor. 7:32-33 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
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Post by nathan on Aug 31, 2018 11:20:16 GMT -5
Last convention we were at, the visiting worker said that in the course of the past year, her and her companion personally were only responsible for one person coming to gospel meetings. She went on to explain how the workers rely on the friends to be mixing with the world and inviting people. For me, it doesn't line up, but whatever people need to feel like they're part of the super secret one True way, I suppose. I would mention that multiple of the friends I've personally talked to are frustrated by this as well. But what do we know? I've become a "lost-out worldling", and they're "not in the center of God's True Way", so no cause to be doubters. *** what the sister worker said is true, most of the workers have little contacts with the world because they don't work. The workers can do some volunteer works for community, this way they have some exposure with outsiders. The workers today are 75% pastors, and 25% preaching. There are more to care for the lambs and sheep and more problems to deal with than the early workers. The friends can help the workers out by inviting their friends, neighbors, relatives or co-workers to hear the gospel because they have established good reports with them than the workers. Jesus apostolic ministry and followers working together as a TEAM for God's kingdom. Both teams have parts to fill, the church will grow and prospers when they work together. Don't try to work against each others, that is the work of the enemy and Satan. The workers need the friends for their support and the friends need the workers for their services.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 13:08:41 GMT -5
Jesus is not talking about owning his own bed or pillow but is saying he has no where to lay his head. He is not saying he didn't own his own bed and pillow. If you stay at someone's house you have somewhere to lay your head, do you not? Jesus said he had no where to lay his head. The workers claim that like Jesus they have no where to lay their head which is not true. They sleep in a nice warm bed every night. A big difference to having no where to lay their head. Plenty of people do not own their own home and plenty of people sleep in other peoples beds. Your arguments are bordering on ridiculous. You seem to not know the difference between Jesus saying he had no where to lay his head and some one living in other peoples homes. Next you'll be saying perhaps Jesus took his pillow with him in a back pack. I wonder how many workers take their faviourite pillow with them. so when Jesus laid and feel alseep on the ship/boat during the storm was that not a place to "lay his head"...it was someone elses ship wasn't it? so what Jesus was really saying is that he gave up all to preach the gospel and used other peoples things to get by....just like the workers do today...digging a little deeper help sometimes concerning scripture...
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