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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 3:57:04 GMT -5
Most people on medication do not need psychiatric care. Yes I've worked with those who have been in prison mental health facilities. There is one about 15 kms from where I live.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2018 11:16:45 GMT -5
I agree, society has done an less than stellar job in helping people in the prevention and in educating the general public. But in their lots of people just don't care to be educated too. I always think how short sighted government is when the first thing to get cut in budgets is the psych section of hospitals and other facilities. A high percentage of our prison population have a mental illness of one kind or another. Yet we don't address that statistic adequately. This might explain some of the reason why "cuts on budgets is the psych section of hospitals etc.," rather than prisons.
Many of the US prisons are private for-profit prisons contracted by a government agency.
"Private prison companies typically enter into contractual agreements with governments that commit prisoners and then pay a per diem or monthly rate, either for each prisoner in the facility, or for each place available, whether occupied or not. Such contracts may be for the operation only of a facility, or for design, construction and operation.
Lately a number of private prison companies have been inserting similar occupancy guarantee provisions into prison privatization contracts and requiring states to maintain high occupancy rates within their privately owned prisons.
Three privately run prisons in Arizona have contracts that require 100 percent inmate occupancy, so the state is obligated to keep its prisons filled to capacity.
Otherwise it has to pay the private company for any unused beds."
www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about_how_private_prisons_make_money_partner/
So does anyone think that those in prisons who are mental ill but should be in a mental health facility instead, are really getting the treatment that they need in a prison?
Also, does anyone understand now that private prisons who insist that all their beds be occupied is one of the reasons the US has such a high number of people incarcerated in the US? Imo, prisons should not be a business. In a business the bottom line is making money and being successful. It makes no sense to me that a prison should be run like a business for obvious reasons. If making money is the objective, they will need to fill the beds and provide the least amount to those who occupy those beds. That's just a lose/lose for the American citizenship imo. It's not much better in Canada though when it comes to getting prisoners with mental illnesses help. My nephew is bi polar and they know he is. He was sentenced a few years ago and they provided a few anger management programs he could attend if he wanted to, but they put no conditions on it. They had the chance to get him on meds but nothing. He has since done his time, been out for about 6 months, and now he's back in again waiting for sentencing and the lawyer is trying to get him a lessor sentence because he's trying to trace his mental health history. But does that mean they will do anything to actually help him? Not likely. Working with Corrections Canada I saw so much of this. It's a revolving door with little or know understanding of what to do to stop it. Either that or no interest in doing anything that might effectively stop it.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2018 11:19:10 GMT -5
Except!-
Wally, -those mentally ill in prison often would not have committed some "crime" if they had had proper treatment for their mental illness to start with! Prisions do have their own mental health facilities. There are special mental health facilities for prisioners who are mentally ill. Forensic psychiatric inpatient clinics. Childhood sexual abuse is a crime, only a very few offenders are mentally ill. Very few offenders of crime are mentally ill. Some would try and claim they are mentally ill in order to get a lighter sentence. There are also treatment programmes and special treatment units for sexual offenders in some prisons. In Canada the only ones that get into the Forensic psychiatric hospital are those that are found Not Guilty by reason of Insanity. The rest go through the system with groups like AA and Anger management and sometimes if they are lucky, a counselor. It's not enough.
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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 13:27:12 GMT -5
Most general prisions have their psychologists and run rehab programmes. Maybe Canada doesn't.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2018 13:35:58 GMT -5
Most general prisions have their psychologists and run rehab programmes. Maybe Canada doesn't. We have counselors and like I said above they do run programs like AA NA and Anger Management groups. Sometimes it's a condition but the judges mostly just leave it up to the inmates whether or not they attend these programs. It is obviously more extensive in our Forensic facilities, but like I said, you had to be found Not Guilty by reason of Insanity. Not many qualify for that.
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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 13:38:03 GMT -5
They used to be just for those who were convicted for reason of insanity but now days it is also for those who are more suited for treatment than in castration. Those with drug and alcohol problem are often sent to live in rehab places for up to a couple of years in leiu of prison.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2018 13:39:10 GMT -5
We see more conditions put on them when they are petitioning for Day parole or full parole. By then they are out and a lot of time has been wasted imo.
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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 13:46:44 GMT -5
Things have changed a lot over the 25 years I've been working in the system. Maybe you have not been in it for a few years or Canada behind some other countries. Drug and alcohol rehab centres are a compulsory alternative to jail for many people and are full to capacity. If they don't attend, usually up to 2 years inpatients or less severe can attend as outpatients but still attend daily with regular drug testing. If they fail, time is added to their rehab or they are sent to jail for a time until they are ready to do the program seriously. Many get out of jail early to go to a live in rehab centre. Many attend counselling at the same time if they choose or are court directed. There are many alternatives to jail if people are serious for help both as an alternative to jail and after leaving prison.
This also applies to sex offenders. Special units are provided for sex offenders in some prisons which focus on rehab and there are community programmes for sex offenders who are directed by the courts to attend or police diversion for the less serious offending or as part of their continued sentencing after leaving jail. People aren't just left with nothing. Many are required to attend probation for an extended period of time.
People can attend the programmes voluntary if they want but very a few people put their hands up and admit to having a problem. Also programs are usually full up with court appointed offenders. Most peolple can't afford them but if referred by the court, the court pays. Thus the reason for a lot of people not getting help until it's too late.
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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 13:49:28 GMT -5
Some of the best non violence programmes have come out of Canada so I doubt if they are behind.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2018 14:16:36 GMT -5
Things have changed a lot over the 25 years I've been working in the system. Maybe you have not been in it for a few years or Canada behind some other countries. Drug and alcohol rehab centres are a compulsory alternative to jail for many people and are full to capacity. If they don't attend, usually up to 2 year inpatients or less severe can attend as outpatients but still attend daily with regular drug testing. If they fail, time is added to their rehab or they are sent to jail for a time until they are ready to do the program seriously. Many get out jail early to go to a live in rehab centre. Many attend counselling at the same time if they choose or are court directed. There are many alternatives to jail if people are serious for help both as an alternative to jail and after leaving prison. This also applies to sex offenders. Special units are provided for sex offenders in some prisons which focus on rehab and there are community programmes for sex offenders who are directed by the courts to attend or police diversion for te less serious offending or as part of their continued sentencing after leaving jail. People aren't just left with nothing. Many are required to attend probation for am extended period of time. Could be enuf. I have been out of it for about 10 years. We had programs when I was in it, and sometimes they were mandatory. But a lot were not made mandatory. The judges had control over that. I do know that my nephew who has been in the system since I left had been diagnosed as bi polar before his first offence. The Judge was made aware of it and still didn't do anything about making counseling or programs mandatory for him. Now he's in the system again, the lawyer is trying to go back over his mental health history. Only to get him less time though. It remains to be seen if the judge makes counseling and programs mandatory this time. In many cases when I was part of Corrections, it was too little too late.
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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 14:19:35 GMT -5
People can attend the programmes voluntary if they want but very a few people put their hands up and admit to having a problem. Also programs are usually full up with court appointed offenders. Most peolple can't afford them but if referred by the court, the court pays. Thus the reason for a lot of people not getting help until it's too late.
A rehab centre is not a place for someone with bi polar.
Counselling is often seen as an easy option by offenders. Facing others in a group is far harder than facing a counsellor in a room alone and only admitting it to one person than many.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2018 14:28:53 GMT -5
People can attend the programmes voluntary if they want but very a few people put their hands up and admit to having a problem. Also programs are usually full up with court appointed offenders. Most peolple can't afford them but if referred by the court, the court pays. Thus the reason for a lot of people not getting help until it's too late. A rehab centre is not a place for someone with bi polar To cont..... No a rehab is not for someone with bi polar. But there were things the judge could have made mandatory like putting him on a drug program to stabilize his extreme mood swings for example. This has been done for those who have been diagnosed with Schizophrenia and been quite effective. Bottom line, there needs to be more emphasis on preventative mental health care, BEFORE they enter the justice system. Ideally that is the answer. Easier said then done though, I recognize that.
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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 14:35:47 GMT -5
If your cousin has been diagnosed with bi polar surely he/she would be on medication. Also people have to admit to having a problem before the offense occurs and if people are not aware or are in denial they aren't likely to respond to treatment.
I added some to my post above in place of to continue..
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2018 14:38:59 GMT -5
If your cousin has been diagnosed with bi polar surely he/she would be on medication. Also the person has to admit to having a problem before theoffense occurs and it people are not aware or are in denial so aren't likely to respond to treatment. He was diagnosed and put on meds when he was a juvenile. But as soon as he turned of age (adult) he stopped because he didn't like the side effects. I can't say I blame him. Not nice side effects for a young man. In Canada he can't be made to take drugs unless he is court ordered after an offense. That is why I am baffled why the judge didn't make them a mandatory part of his conviction. He knew about it and didn't even make counseling mandatory. I know he attended AA and Anger Management sporadically in prison, but on his own, not court ordered.
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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 14:52:17 GMT -5
Attending programmes in jail are not usually court-ordered, they are voluntary in jail. My understanding is that the courts can't control what happens in the prison. Only what happens after they leave prison.
Many people do the programs while in prison only to reduce their sentence but admit later that they weren't ready at the time to take it seriously.
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2018 9:50:59 GMT -5
Does everyone with depression commit suicide when they have an impulse to do so? Unfortunately, there are many who try and a few that succeed (if I can use that word for that action). This is just one example of how your last statement is flawed. I feel society has done a good job in teaching that acting on wrong impulses is wrong. Most pedophiles and the like sort know this and have deep convictions about their impulses and that they are not to be acted on. What I've been shouting is that society has done an awful job in helping people in the prevention, as well as the education of the general population as to the reasons behind why people are this way. I agree, society has done an less than stellar job in helping people in the prevention and in educating the general public. But in their lots of people just don't care to be educated too. I always think how short sighted government is when the first thing to get cut in budgets is the psych section of hospitals and other facilities. A high percentage of our prison population have a mental illness of one kind or another. Yet we don't address that statistic adequately. There are other factors to consider. Consider the cases of Regina Calcaterra in New York or the Turpin family in California. Abuse by family members is the most common source of abuse and is therefore difficult to recognize. How many people do each of us know that are currently abusing their children? How many people will approach an adult who is using excessive force in a market? What about verbal abuse?
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2018 9:58:56 GMT -5
Most people on medication do not need psychiatric care. Yes I've worked with those who have been in prison mental health facilities. There is one about 15 kms from where I live. Medication without follow-up treatment is like setting up a hose to turn on every time there is a fire without addressing the underlying cause of the fire. Medications are not cures. Treating symptoms does not address the underlying issue. Medicine have benefits and risks. Someone need to monitor the effects. Medications work best when they are part of an overall treatment program.
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Post by snow on Apr 8, 2018 11:18:03 GMT -5
I agree, society has done an less than stellar job in helping people in the prevention and in educating the general public. But in their lots of people just don't care to be educated too. I always think how short sighted government is when the first thing to get cut in budgets is the psych section of hospitals and other facilities. A high percentage of our prison population have a mental illness of one kind or another. Yet we don't address that statistic adequately. There are other factors to consider. Consider the cases of Regina Calcaterra in New York or the Turpin family in California. Abuse by family members is the most common source of abuse and is therefore difficult to recognize. How many people do each of us know that are currently abusing their children? How many people will approach an adult who is using excessive force in a market? What about verbal abuse? Not many. I have and people shy away from confrontations like that. I recognize it's hard and frightening to confront, but how can anyone see a child being hurt, not just disciplined, and they don't step in? I have only done it twice in my life. Both times I came away from it with a pounding heart because I was so scared. I'm sure it didn't do anything, that when the kid got out of the store the mom just continued. I didn't know what to do other than to speak up and stop it then. That's probably why people turn a blind eye. They don't know what they can do in the long term.
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2018 11:52:31 GMT -5
There are other factors to consider. Consider the cases of Regina Calcaterra in New York or the Turpin family in California. Abuse by family members is the most common source of abuse and is therefore difficult to recognize. How many people do each of us know that are currently abusing their children? How many people will approach an adult who is using excessive force in a market? What about verbal abuse? Not many. I have and people shy away from confrontations like that. I recognize it's hard and frightening to confront, but how can anyone see a child being hurt, not just disciplined, and they don't step in? I have only done it twice in my life. Both times I came away from it with a pounding heart because I was so scared. I'm sure it didn't do anything, that when the kid got out of the store the mom just continued. I didn't know what to do other than to speak up and stop it then. That's probably why people turn a blind eye. They don't know what they can do in the long term. I have taken the easy route and indicated to the mother/father that kids can be a handful and empathize with their frustration. In 3 out of 4 times the parents actually looked relieved that someone had mentioned it and also admitted they were a bit harsh. The other time, judging from the actions I observed in the car, I felt it might have made it worse for the child. Made me a little leery of trying to help. I know what you mean - not usually a long term solution.
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Post by snow on Apr 8, 2018 12:56:42 GMT -5
Not many. I have and people shy away from confrontations like that. I recognize it's hard and frightening to confront, but how can anyone see a child being hurt, not just disciplined, and they don't step in? I have only done it twice in my life. Both times I came away from it with a pounding heart because I was so scared. I'm sure it didn't do anything, that when the kid got out of the store the mom just continued. I didn't know what to do other than to speak up and stop it then. That's probably why people turn a blind eye. They don't know what they can do in the long term. I have taken the easy route and indicated to the mother/father that kids can be a handful and empathize with their frustration. In 3 out of 4 times the parents actually looked relieved that someone had mentioned it and also admitted they were a bit harsh. The other time, judging from the actions I observed in the car, I felt it might have made it worse for the child. Made me a little leery of trying to help. I know what you mean - not usually a long term solution. Unless you are going to go the full length and report them immediately to social services, you can put the child in further danger. When confronted it can go badly for the child as you pointed out. That is why when I've said something I tried to be tactful about it, just enough to make them stop at that moment and like you, an understanding that kids can be frustrating.
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Post by magpie1 on Nov 3, 2018 17:25:15 GMT -5
Pedophiles: A person with sustained sexual desires towards pre-pubescent children. www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia#1 has very good points to it. Hebephile: A Person with sustained sexual desires towards children from about 11 to 14 years old. Ephebophiles: A person with sustained sexual desires towards children from about 15 to 16 years old. Teleiophiles: A person with sustained sexual desires towards children from about 17 to 18 years old. Infantophile: A person with sustained sexual desires towards infants. Child abuser: A person who mistreats a child (0-18 years old) sexually. What is my point? We mislabel people all the time. Professions believe that most child abusers are not pedophiles or any of the other terms. Most pedophiles (or the others) are not child abusers. Ask any professional who deals with his subject and they will tell you exactly this. Am I condoning any abuse towards children, NO. However, I want to speak up on this matter that I feel people so often take up with little or no understanding, but a lot of emotion. People with these feelings are clinically diagnosed with a mental disorder. Is a brain disease any different than heart disease, or cancer, etc? I say no. Does the pedophile wake up one morning and say "I think I want to be sexually attracted to children today." No more than a person who wakes up and says "I want to have a heart attack today." See the above link. With that said, how does society help these people not act on their feelings? Can you imagine a Pedophile Anonymous meeting? What kind of lynch mob would be waiting outside for them to exit (if they didn't burn down the place with everyone inside first). I feel that as a society we would be far better off for people who have these feelings to be free enough to get help so that it doesn't bottle up inside and then eventually spill out and harm another. To the child abuser issue. Why are most child abusers not pedophiles (or the like sort), but rather people with "healthy sexual" desires towards someone else their own age? Again, professionals in the line of treatment of these people will tell you that it is because children are easy targets where grown people are resistant. There are many, many underlying issues that are rarely addressed; depression, low self-esteem, being abused themselves as a child, and so on, that a person should be free to get help for before it leads up to wrong actions. Yet as a society we don't allow that to happen because of the stigma we have put on people with sustained sexual attractions toward children. Again, professionals who deal in this line of work will tell you that most people who come to them for help hate the attraction they have and have absolutely no desire to act upon it. In light of getting help for this mental disorder, yes, there is help. Again, as a society, we have made it very difficult for people to get help. Can a person who is a convicted child abuser get help and live in society as a healthy contributor to society? Yes, but the underlying issues have to be dealt with first. Shame on us for not allowing those who have gone through the daily process of seeking God's grace to not act on wrong thoughts and feeling from being just as free as we are. Do you know a pedophile? Yes. You just don't know they are one. Now that I've thrown gas on the fire, I'll step back and watch the blow up! Thought it is time to remind us all,again, of the dozen decades of the hidden,now. slightly revealed enormous cancer of CSA (Child Sexual Abuse) the 2x2 children have suffered. The criminal noncompassionate way victims have/are being handled,and the Ministry perpetrators hidden. No if's or buts Pedophelia is a "mental disorder",for life,strong Psychologists,Doctors & Pastoral counselling can sometimes help restrain it,but it is sadly a lifetime curse. Save your kids today clean it out,or get out & help the past and present victims,even if you have to help them pay for the best professional help. Love Magpie
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Post by Gene on Nov 3, 2018 20:05:01 GMT -5
Most people on medication do not need psychiatric care. Yes I've worked with those who have been in prison mental health facilities. There is one about 15 kms from where I live. Medication without follow-up treatment is like setting up a hose to turn on every time there is a fire without addressing the underlying cause of the fire. Medications are not cures. Treating symptoms does not address the underlying issue. Medicine have benefits and risks. Someone need to monitor the effects. Medications work best when they are part of an overall treatment program. Is this the case for bipolar, too? That is, are you saying medication (for life) is not sufficient, but that medication should only be for some set period while the underlying issue is being addressed?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2018 20:17:38 GMT -5
Medication without follow-up treatment is like setting up a hose to turn on every time there is a fire without addressing the underlying cause of the fire. Medications are not cures. Treating symptoms does not address the underlying issue. Medicine have benefits and risks. Someone need to monitor the effects. Medications work best when they are part of an overall treatment program. Is this the case for bipolar, too? That is, are you saying medication (for life) is not sufficient, but that medication should only be for some set period while the underlying issue is being addressed? for bipolar, schizophrenia, paranoia etc...etc i've never heard of anyone coming off meds. i have heard of people coming off depression meds though...and i've only heard of people reducing therapy sessions never quitting them for bipolar schizo,paranoia...
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Post by rational on Nov 4, 2018 8:32:44 GMT -5
Medication without follow-up treatment is like setting up a hose to turn on every time there is a fire without addressing the underlying cause of the fire. Medications are not cures. Treating symptoms does not address the underlying issue. Medicine have benefits and risks. Someone need to monitor the effects. Medications work best when they are part of an overall treatment program. Is this the case for bipolar, too? That is, are you saying medication (for life) is not sufficient, but that medication should only be for some set period while the underlying issue is being addressed? No, I am saying that a person using long-term medication needs to be evaluated periodically to take into account the variability in how the body processes drugs over time and possibly make changes to achieve the maximum benefit. It also provides a means to evaluate any possible underlying causes of the illness. Haldol (one drug used for bipolar disorder) might be a great antipsychotic drug that can help with a number of problems but then it also presents an increased risk of death with long term use. A periodic evaluation of the psychosis being treated might reveal an alternative treatment that would have fewer side effects. No one wants a world filled with people doing the 'haldol shuffle' (restlessness, need to keep moving, shuffling walk, stiffness when moving the arms and legs, etc.) when there are other possible treatments that have less severe side effects.
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Post by magpie1 on Nov 4, 2018 16:38:50 GMT -5
Remember the young man who developed Bipolar,and suicided. His story? His sister after that founded the Australian Bipolar Research Fund.Before he took his life the 2x2s gossiped quite uncompassionatly about his erratic behaviour,no help was offered,as that Ministry don't or have the ability to help. He was the victim of,three paedophiles, an ex Worker,two men who went onto the work.His story has been printed,by Pelagius...Magpie PS, I sincerely hope all 2x2s and the cold Ministry are generously donating to that fund,his tormented life was the fruits of the 2x2s paedophiles,wasn't it?.
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Post by rational on Nov 5, 2018 12:23:19 GMT -5
Remember the young man who developed Bipolar,and suicided. His story? His sister after that founded the Australian Bipolar Research Fund.Before he took his life the 2x2s gossiped quite uncompassionatly about his erratic behaviour,no help was offered,as that Ministry don't or have the ability to help. He was the victim of,three paedophiles, an ex Worker,two men who went onto the work.His story has been printed,by Pelagius...Magpie PS, I sincerely hope all 2x2s and the cold Ministry are generously donating to that fund,his tormented life was the fruits of the 2x2s paedophiles,wasn't it?. You are making a claim regarding the cause of bipolar disorder that you would have difficulty supporting. Child sexual abuse is not the cause of all ills. While membership in the F&W might provide a good scapegoat for everything that goes awry in ones live this is probably not the truth.
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Post by magpie1 on Nov 5, 2018 14:57:12 GMT -5
Rationale,as with people genetically inclined to schizophrenia,may go through life unknowing they are. But a trigger can set it off,today the use of drugs,living in fear,trauma such as CSA/rape,etc. The home we owned and ran,for 25 years, with up to 26 residents(all ages) who could no longer care for themselves,was for Intellectual Disability and Mental Illness. Quite life threatening from time to time,but we learned a lot,and survived. Magpie
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Post by rational on Nov 6, 2018 10:06:09 GMT -5
Rationale,as with people genetically inclined to schizophrenia,may go through life unknowing they are. But a trigger can set it off,today the use of drugs,living in fear,trauma such as CSA/rape,etc. The home we owned and ran,for 25 years, with up to 26 residents(all ages) who could no longer care for themselves,was for Intellectual Disability and Mental Illness. Quite life threatening from time to time,but we learned a lot,and survived. Magpie I understand that trauma can trigger many things but I was commenting on your frequent posting that seems to blame either membership in the F&W or acts of the workers for a long litany of woes.
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