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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 18:35:37 GMT -5
Pedophiles: A person with sustained sexual desires towards pre-pubescent children. www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia#1 has very good points to it. Hebephile: A Person with sustained sexual desires towards children from about 11 to 14 years old. Ephebophiles: A person with sustained sexual desires towards children from about 15 to 16 years old. Teleiophiles: A person with sustained sexual desires towards children from about 17 to 18 years old. Infantophile: A person with sustained sexual desires towards infants. Child abuser: A person who mistreats a child (0-18 years old) sexually. What is my point? We mislabel people all the time. Professions believe that most child abusers are not pedophiles or any of the other terms. Most pedophiles (or the others) are not child abusers. Ask any professional who deals with his subject and they will tell you exactly this. Am I condoning any abuse towards children, NO. However, I want to speak up on this matter that I feel people so often take up with little or no understanding, but a lot of emotion. People with these feelings are clinically diagnosed with a mental disorder. Is a brain disease any different than heart disease, or cancer, etc? I say no. Does the pedophile wake up one morning and say "I think I want to be sexually attracted to children today." No more than a person who wakes up and says "I want to have a heart attack today." See the above link. With that said, how does society help these people not act on their feelings? Can you imagine a Pedophile Anonymous meeting? What kind of lynch mob would be waiting outside for them to exit (if they didn't burn down the place with everyone inside first). I feel that as a society we would be far better off for people who have these feelings to be free enough to get help so that it doesn't bottle up inside and then eventually spill out and harm another. To the child abuser issue. Why are most child abusers not pedophiles (or the like sort), but rather people with "healthy sexual" desires towards someone else their own age? Again, professionals in the line of treatment of these people will tell you that it is because children are easy targets where grown people are resistant. There are many, many underlying issues that are rarely addressed; depression, low self-esteem, being abused themselves as a child, and so on, that a person should be free to get help for before it leads up to wrong actions. Yet as a society we don't allow that to happen because of the stigma we have put on people with sustained sexual attractions toward children. Again, professionals who deal in this line of work will tell you that most people who come to them for help hate the attraction they have and have absolutely no desire to act upon it. In light of getting help for this mental disorder, yes, there is help. Again, as a society, we have made it very difficult for people to get help. Can a person who is a convicted child abuser get help and live in society as a healthy contributor to society? Yes, but the underlying issues have to be dealt with first. Shame on us for not allowing those who have gone through the daily process of seeking God's grace to not act on wrong thoughts and feeling from being just as free as we are. Do you know a pedophile? Yes. You just don't know they are one. Now that I've thrown gas on the fire, I'll step back and watch the blow up! i had no idea there were some many kinds of philes...
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Post by rational on Apr 5, 2018 18:37:25 GMT -5
Do you know a pedophile? Yes. You just don't know they are one. Now that I've thrown gas on the fire, I'll step back and watch the blow up! Facts stripped of emotion. Correcting a problem is difficult unless you are dealing with the facts of the situation and not the emotions caused by the event. Ask Rind and Tromovitch how they fared when they presented data that differed with what people believed to be true. Susan Clancy was vilified for her 2010 book. Problems cannot be solved is they cannot be truthfully examined.
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Post by Gene on Apr 5, 2018 18:37:48 GMT -5
Knew of a case in Wisconsin where a male 2&2 preacher left a public restroom saw His tan dress shirt was caught in his ziippered up fly, turned to face the rr door unzipped, replaced and rezipped, go arrested for exposure forbidden by overseer to defend himself in court, wound up with a sex related charge on his record forced to face the consequences of that The rest of his life. Sad case. CP?
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Post by thelight on Apr 5, 2018 19:09:07 GMT -5
To the child abuser issue. Why are most child abusers not pedophiles (or the like sort), but rather people with "healthy sexual" desires towards someone else their own age? Again, professionals in the line of treatment of these people will tell you that it is because children are easy targets where grown people are resistant. Shame on us for not allowing those who have gone through the daily process of seeking God's grace to not act on wrong thoughts and feeling from being just as free as we are. I'm not sure that I agree with this statement. Are most child abusers not pedophiles??? I think that yes, there may be some that are not & as you have mentioned they abuse children because they are easier targets than adults.... however I would think that most child abusers abuse children because that is what they have a taste for. And a lot of them would either prefer little girls or little boys, with a low percentage getting a kick out of either gender. I could be wrong but I'd like to hope that a lot of people who are prepared to sexually abuse someone choose an adult because they value childhood/children & perhaps have their own children so have empathy for them. In these situations I don't think it's so black & white, I think there are so many variables in order to categorize someone. People that are this way inclined are free to seek help - psychologists & psychiatrists. THEY have to be the ones willing to take that step on their own, after realising that they have a problem (because it is a problem & not something that is ever going to be accepted in society as normal like being gay now (mostly)). Children are a gift that (most) parents will do anything in their power to protect, why would any parent be completely at ease with having known child abusers or pedophiles walking the streets free? We all know they are out there & that we could all have one living in our street or even welcomed into our home at meetings, which is why we have to be so extremely vigilant in supervising our children so they don't fall into the wrong hands. I know that chemical castration is done in the US..... I've not really heard of it here in Australia, maybe it should be a voluntary option for people who are attracted to children who are afraid that they will eventually act on their feelings. And it should be a done deal for anyone who is convicted of abusing a child.
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jjj
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Post by jjj on Apr 5, 2018 20:16:47 GMT -5
enuf:
I should have made that clear also as I am fully aware that most abused children don't become abusers (30% if I recall right). However, a high percentage of abusers were abused. A lot of this has to do with destroyed self-esteem, etc.
I'd say very few perpetrators ask for help, only a small percentage of people who are brave enough to admit what they are and hate it seek help ahead of time. This is where I feel our society has failed to make it easy for people who want help to learn how to not act on their feelings as the fear of being reported for thoughts/feelings that have not become action is really high. Professionals only have to report past abuses and anything they feel is imminent, not that a person has that tendency.
I do feel that those who act on their wrong feelings shouldn't be let off the hook, just as those who have a tendency to steal shouldn't be let off the hook when they shoplift. I would like to see society be more of a help in people dealing with things before they become actions and this will not happen until we start seeing pedophilia, etc. as brain diseases and not lynch people for having feelings they hate.
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Post by thelight on Apr 5, 2018 20:38:17 GMT -5
I would like to see society be more of a help in people dealing with things before they become actions and this will not happen until we start seeing pedophilia, etc. as brain diseases and not lynch people for having feelings they hate. I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think that is ever going to happen. People still do not accept others who are dealing with mental illness & disabilities who pose absolutely no risk to them or their family.... Unfortunately & as scary as it is, I believe this is something that we are all going to have to live with & deal with - there will always be those who do not believe they have a problem & will maintain the need for child porn, child trafficking & CSA. These people will travel overseas to what is in their eyes "legally" having sex with children, because they are paying for it. I don't think there is any way to stamp it out or get society on side to say "it's fine that you are a pedophile or child abuser - we fully support you".
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jjj
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Post by jjj on Apr 5, 2018 20:41:38 GMT -5
thelight:
Most child abusers are not pedophiles. A study by Michael Seto and Martin L. Lalumière titled “A Brief Screening Scale to Identify Pedophilic Interests Among Child Molesters” found that only between 27% and 40% of child molesters were pedophiles. (https://medium.com/pedophiles-about-pedophilia/of-pedophilia-and-child-molestation-50fb042a46d)
Yes, people are free to seek help. If society made black hair a sin to have, would you even venture out of the house to get it dyed? Yes, you could cover it up (which is what most pedophiles do) so nobody knows but the fear of even opening up about it to anyone is even scarier that gays declaring their sexuality in 1940. Yes, they have to take that step on their own. Why isn't is accepted in society? Do pedophiles and like sort choose to be thus? No. My argument is that what they are isn't the sin, but acting on it is a sin. I feel that society should accept pedophilia as something they have just as they are short or tall, black or blond hair, green or brown eyes and so on. I don't feel that society should ever allow the sexual exploitation of children to ever be accepted.
You will always have pedophiles walking the streets because most know to act on it is wrong and they refuse to do so, thus nobody knows what they are. I do agree that parents need to be very involved with their children and not be on the watch for pedophiles, but for child abusers (which may include pedophiles but the majority not). Are you (generally speaking) aware of every person who has an anger issue? Are you worried about them? No, but you are aware of and worried about those who act on it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 20:43:32 GMT -5
I would like to see society be more of a help in people dealing with things before they become actions and this will not happen until we start seeing pedophilia, etc. as brain diseases and not lynch people for having feelings they hate. I don't think there is any way to stamp it out or get society on side to say "it's fine that you are a pedophile or child abuser - we fully support you". don't underestimate mankinds stupidity... we've had judges give out sentences of only a couple months or so to CSA offenders before... i remember one woman offender that was given no sentence because she was "too pretty for prison"...
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Post by rational on Apr 5, 2018 20:45:28 GMT -5
To the child abuser issue. Why are most child abusers not pedophiles (or the like sort), but rather people with "healthy sexual" desires towards someone else their own age? Again, professionals in the line of treatment of these people will tell you that it is because children are easy targets where grown people are resistant. Shame on us for not allowing those who have gone through the daily process of seeking God's grace to not act on wrong thoughts and feeling from being just as free as we are. I'm not sure that I agree with this statement. Are most child abusers not pedophiles??? I think that yes, there may be some that are not & as you have mentioned they abuse children because they are easier targets than adults.... however I would think that most child abusers abuse children because that is what they have a taste for. And a lot of them would either prefer little girls or little boys, with a low percentage getting a kick out of either gender. I could be wrong but I'd like to hope that a lot of people who are prepared to sexually abuse someone choose an adult because they value childhood/children & perhaps have their own children so have empathy for them. In these situations I don't think it's so black & white, I think there are so many variables in order to categorize someone. People that are this way inclined are free to seek help - psychologists & psychiatrists. THEY have to be the ones willing to take that step on their own, after realising that they have a problem (because it is a problem & not something that is ever going to be accepted in society as normal like being gay now (mostly)). Children are a gift that (most) parents will do anything in their power to protect, why would any parent be completely at ease with having known child abusers or pedophiles walking the streets free? We all know they are out there & that we could all have one living in our street or even welcomed into our home at meetings, which is why we have to be so extremely vigilant in supervising our children so they don't fall into the wrong hands. I know that chemical castration is done in the US..... I've not really heard of it here in Australia, maybe it should be a voluntary option for people who are attracted to children who are afraid that they will eventually act on their feelings. And it should be a done deal for anyone who is convicted of abusing a child. What would chemical castration solve? As a study suggested, there should be more specific definitions for CSA. CSA does not always depend on the ability of the criminal to become aroused. Australia In 2010, a repeat child sex offender who had been subject to chemical castration was accused of inappropriately touching and kissing a young girl. He was found not guilty by a jury, which was not informed of the context of his previous offenses.
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jjj
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Post by jjj on Apr 5, 2018 20:48:54 GMT -5
Wally,
Is it wrong to say what people are is wrong (pedophiles, homosexuals, etc.) or when they act out on what God has declared as wrong?
I've never said or will say, that those who do wrong shouldn't be punished. Just don't punish those who are, but don't do.
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Post by thelight on Apr 5, 2018 20:58:51 GMT -5
Australia In 2010, a repeat child sex offender who had been subject to chemical castration was accused of inappropriately touching and kissing a young girl. He was found not guilty by a jury, which was not informed of the context of his previous offenses.
There in lies another problem! Chemical castration may not work in every single case, but getting rid of those hormones would have to help. And yes, clearer definitions of CSA would be good, however with so many variables it might be hard to put some people into one particular box.
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Post by rational on Apr 5, 2018 21:02:15 GMT -5
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jjj
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Post by jjj on Apr 5, 2018 21:07:07 GMT -5
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY. AND YES, I'M SHOUTING!
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Post by thelight on Apr 5, 2018 21:10:10 GMT -5
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY. AND YES, I'M SHOUTING! However, do you foresee society ever changing to accept them & offer support?
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jjj
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Post by jjj on Apr 5, 2018 21:17:46 GMT -5
[/quote]However, do you foresee society ever changing to accept them & offer support? [/quote]
I don't see it happening, but why should you and I not make it happen?
Change happens one person at a time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 23:39:56 GMT -5
Wally, Is it wrong to say what people are is wrong (pedophiles, homosexuals, etc.) or when they act out on what God has declared as wrong? I've never said or will say, that those who do wrong shouldn't be punished. Just don't punish those who are, but don't do. your right as long as they don't act on their impulses there shouldn't be a problem...but it is a rare creature that doesn't given in at least once to their impulses...
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Post by Grant on Apr 6, 2018 4:21:25 GMT -5
Castration does not stop offending. It starts in the thoughts. Like with everything thoughts become feelings and feelings become action. Child abuse can take all forms and might or might not include sexual abuse. A person who physically abuses a child can be convicted of child abuse. Another reason for child abuse, sexual or otherwise is about power. Many abusers don't go for help because they tell themselves it is the last time. There are plenty of treatment programs for those who want help. It is likely though that they will have to pay if they aren't sent though the court system. Many child sexual abuses start with watching child porn. Finkelhor's model is one used to train those working with offenders and used for the last 30 years. Sorry about some of the advertising in the second link. I agree where it says sexual offending is in addition to and not because of a mental illness. www.secasa.com.au/pages/theories-on-why-sexual-abuse-happens/the-four-pre-conditions-model/www.ohrn.nhs.uk/conferences/past/irelandslides.pdf
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Post by rational on Apr 6, 2018 7:59:18 GMT -5
Wally, Is it wrong to say what people are is wrong (pedophiles, homosexuals, etc.) or when they act out on what God has declared as wrong? I've never said or will say, that those who do wrong shouldn't be punished. Just don't punish those who are, but don't do. your right as long as they don't act on their impulses there shouldn't be a problem...but it is a rare creature that doesn't given in at least once to their impulses... You need to read more about pedophiles than what is shown on the news.
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jjj
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Post by jjj on Apr 6, 2018 8:12:24 GMT -5
Wally, Is it wrong to say what people are is wrong (pedophiles, homosexuals, etc.) or when they act out on what God has declared as wrong? I've never said or will say, that those who do wrong shouldn't be punished. Just don't punish those who are, but don't do. your right as long as they don't act on their impulses there shouldn't be a problem...but it is a rare creature that doesn't given in at least once to their impulses... Does everyone with depression commit suicide when they have an impulse to do so? Unfortunately, there are many who try and a few that succeed (if I can use that word for that action). This is just one example of how your last statement is flawed. I feel society has done a good job in teaching that acting on wrong impulses is wrong. Most pedophiles and the like sort know this and have deep convictions about their impulses and that they are not to be acted on. What I've been shouting is that society has done an awful job in helping people in the prevention, as well as the education of the general population as to the reasons behind why people are this way.
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Post by rational on Apr 6, 2018 8:26:43 GMT -5
Castration does not stop offending. It starts in the thoughts. Like with everything thoughts become feelings and feelings become action. There are no doubt some males here have undergone a period of chemical castration (often passed off as hormone therapy) prior to and during treatment for prostate cancer. The treatment may reduce the frequency but does not eliminate the desire. Which, of course, questions the efficacy of chemical castration to control acts that are motivated by a criminal seeking power. In the US one of the largest insurance companies has this to say about it: I. Based upon our criteria and assessment of peer-reviewed literature, sex offender treatment programs have been medically proven to be effective and therefore are considered a medically appropriate treatment for adults and adolescents. II. Adults must meet the following criteria. The patient must have a principal diagnosis of mental illness as specified in the current edition of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) or ICD-9-CM or ICD-10 which includes: A. Paraphilic disorders; B. Pedophilic disorders; C. Co-morbid substance abuse disorder ; D. History of legal charges related to sexual offenses with high risk of re-offending. III. Adolescents must meet the following criteria. The patient must have a principal diagnosis of mental illness as specified in the current edition of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) or ICD-9-CM or ICD-10 which includes: A. Paraphilic disorders; B. Pedophilia disorder; C. Impulse control disorder; D. Co-morbid substance abuse disorder; E. History of legal charges related to sexual offenses with high risk of re-offending. References? Is consuming porn the cause of does one become a consumer of pron after the fact? The UNH Crimes against Children Research Center (Finkelhor is the director) also has made a database available that addresses many aspects of children's lives. Itrces that had as much detail into how children were disciplined - recording bits of data that noted how physical punishment was administered, that is, spanking with open hand on the buttocks, slapping the face with open hand, hitting with a paddle, etc, instead of just calling physical punishment "spanking".
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Post by snow on Apr 6, 2018 16:10:41 GMT -5
your right as long as they don't act on their impulses there shouldn't be a problem...but it is a rare creature that doesn't given in at least once to their impulses... Does everyone with depression commit suicide when they have an impulse to do so? Unfortunately, there are many who try and a few that succeed (if I can use that word for that action). This is just one example of how your last statement is flawed. I feel society has done a good job in teaching that acting on wrong impulses is wrong. Most pedophiles and the like sort know this and have deep convictions about their impulses and that they are not to be acted on. What I've been shouting is that society has done an awful job in helping people in the prevention, as well as the education of the general population as to the reasons behind why people are this way. I agree, society has done an less than stellar job in helping people in the prevention and in educating the general public. But in their lots of people just don't care to be educated too. I always think how short sighted government is when the first thing to get cut in budgets is the psych section of hospitals and other facilities. A high percentage of our prison population have a mental illness of one kind or another. Yet we don't address that statistic adequately.
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Post by magpie on Apr 6, 2018 17:10:00 GMT -5
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Post by magpie on Apr 6, 2018 17:16:56 GMT -5
Perhaps someone could replace the site address for the Victorian Government "Who needs a check?" I have rechecked what I had placed and it is drawing a blank...Thankyou Maggie. PS remember this site was placed on TMB to help protect your little children.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 6, 2018 20:07:39 GMT -5
Does everyone with depression commit suicide when they have an impulse to do so? Unfortunately, there are many who try and a few that succeed (if I can use that word for that action). This is just one example of how your last statement is flawed. I feel society has done a good job in teaching that acting on wrong impulses is wrong. Most pedophiles and the like sort know this and have deep convictions about their impulses and that they are not to be acted on. What I've been shouting is that society has done an awful job in helping people in the prevention, as well as the education of the general population as to the reasons behind why people are this way. I agree, society has done an less than stellar job in helping people in the prevention and in educating the general public. But in their lots of people just don't care to be educated too. I always think how short sighted government is when the first thing to get cut in budgets is the psych section of hospitals and other facilities. A high percentage of our prison population have a mental illness of one kind or another. Yet we don't address that statistic adequately. This might explain some of the reason why "cuts on budgets is the psych section of hospitals etc.," rather than prisons.
Many of the US prisons are private for-profit prisons contracted by a government agency.
"Private prison companies typically enter into contractual agreements with governments that commit prisoners and then pay a per diem or monthly rate, either for each prisoner in the facility, or for each place available, whether occupied or not. Such contracts may be for the operation only of a facility, or for design, construction and operation.
Lately a number of private prison companies have been inserting similar occupancy guarantee provisions into prison privatization contracts and requiring states to maintain high occupancy rates within their privately owned prisons.
Three privately run prisons in Arizona have contracts that require 100 percent inmate occupancy, so the state is obligated to keep its prisons filled to capacity.
Otherwise it has to pay the private company for any unused beds."
www.salon.com/2013/09/23/6_shocking_revelations_about_how_private_prisons_make_money_partner/
So does anyone think that those in prisons who are mental ill but should be in a mental health facility instead, are really getting the treatment that they need in a prison?
Also, does anyone understand now that private prisons who insist that all their beds be occupied is one of the reasons the US has such a high number of people incarcerated in the US?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 0:32:33 GMT -5
I agree, society has done an less than stellar job in helping people in the prevention and in educating the general public. But in their lots of people just don't care to be educated too. I always think how short sighted government is when the first thing to get cut in budgets is the psych section of hospitals and other facilities. A high percentage of our prison population have a mental illness of one kind or another. Yet we don't address that statistic adequately. So does anyone think that those in prisons who are mental ill but should be in a mental health facility instead, are really getting the treatment that they need in a prison?
Also, does anyone understand now that private prisons who insist that all their beds be occupied is one of the reasons the US has such a high number of people incarcerated in the US? yes a lot of prisoners should be in institutions rather than prison... i wouldn't want to be caught up in the prison system but a saying comes to mind "if you can't do the time don't do the crime"....
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 7, 2018 0:57:43 GMT -5
So does anyone think that those in prisons who are mental ill but should be in a mental health facility instead, are really getting the treatment that they need in a prison?
Also, does anyone understand now that private prisons who insist that all their beds be occupied is one of the reasons the US has such a high number of people incarcerated in the US? yes a lot of prisoners should be in institutions rather than prison... i wouldn't want to be caught up in the prison system but a saying comes to mind "if you can't do the time don't do the crime".... Except!-
Wally, -those mentally ill in prison often would not have committed some "crime" if they had had proper treatment for their mental illness to start with!
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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 2:47:56 GMT -5
yes a lot of prisoners should be in institutions rather than prison... i wouldn't want to be caught up in the prison system but a saying comes to mind "if you can't do the time don't do the crime".... Except!-
Wally, -those mentally ill in prison often would not have committed some "crime" if they had had proper treatment for their mental illness to start with! Prisions do have their own mental health facilities. There are special mental health facilities for prisioners who are mentally ill. Forensic psychiatric inpatient clinics. Childhood sexual abuse is a crime, only a very few offenders are mentally ill. Very few offenders of crime are mentally ill. Some would try and claim they are mentally ill in order to get a lighter sentence. There are also treatment programmes and special treatment units for sexual offenders in some prisons.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 7, 2018 3:36:04 GMT -5
Except!-
Wally, -those mentally ill in prison often would not have committed some "crime" if they had had proper treatment for their mental illness to start with! Prisions do have their own mental health facilities. There are special mental health facilities for prisioners who are mentally ill. Forensic psychiatric inpatient clinics. Childhood sexual abuse is a crime, only a very few offenders are mentally ill. Very few offenders of crime are mentally ill. Some would try and claim they are mentally ill in order to get a lighter sentence. There are also treatment programmes and special treatment units for sexual offenders in some prisons. Where are your information coming from? Do you work in a prison? Where are the statistics that "There are special mental health facilities for prisoners who are mentally ill?" and there are "Forensic psychiatric inpatient clinics?"
In my family there is a couple who both work in a prison and she is the one who gives out the medications.
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