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Post by xna on Sept 23, 2017 17:43:17 GMT -5
Hopefully that's a spoof! It is exactly what children are being taught though. I don't understand how people don't see it? It seems so obvious to me just how much God is a man made concept to provide power over the people for some, comfort and security for others. It was intended to ridicule the notion of original sin. I don't know how anyone could not see the idea is just cruel and unfair, but it's a foundation of christianity.
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Post by Grant on Sept 23, 2017 17:54:22 GMT -5
Is it fair that children inherit genetic diseases? I'm not advocating inherited sin but that nature and nurture are intertwined. It's that debate that no one is born a clean slate.
We are all born with the potential to do wrong and we all do. There is no one who is born with a perfect 'sin free' nature. Taking our first breath shows our frailty and dependence on things outside ourselves. We live in an imperfect world and we are imperfect beings.
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Post by snow on Sept 23, 2017 18:01:55 GMT -5
Is it fair that children inherit genetic diseases? I'm not advocating inherited sin but that nature and nurture are intertwined. It's that debate that no one is born a clean slate. We are all born with the potential to do wrong and we all do. There is no one who is born with a perfect 'sin free' nature. Taking our first breath shows our frailty and dependence on things outside ourselves. We live in an imperfect world and we are imperfect beings. Yes we are all born with the potential to do bad things, make bad judgement calls etc. But it's when you also add on to that the guilt that goes with the message that's a problem. When you tell them because they have the potential to mess up sometimes, that they are evil and a sinner and must cry to God for forgiveness, that's a problem. If you tell them that they should ask forgiveness for the death of Jesus dying for their sins, that's a problem. If you tell them they are going to hell if they don't do all the right things to be saved, that's a problem. The whole concept of original sin and being sinners, is horrible, and that's a problem. I see this abuse in my birth family all the time. Little innocent children being told they will go to hell if they aren't good. It makes me want to cry when I hear what they say to their kids because it's a continued indoctrination and people are so used to it they don't even recognize that it's so abusive. That's a problem.
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Post by Grant on Sept 23, 2017 18:10:58 GMT -5
The Christian message is not that they have to do the right thing to be saved. It is the opposite. It is that we do mess up but we are forgiven because Jesus went to the Cross because we mess up.
Christianity offers hope, unlike the non believer who has no reason to do right except for fear of jail or death. There are consequences for our wrong whether we like it or not. Christianity offers hope and freedom for our wrong here in the present whereas the non believer does not have this.
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Post by xna on Sept 23, 2017 18:17:26 GMT -5
Is it fair that children inherit genetic diseases? I don't think life is fare. I also don't think all wrongs will be made right in an afterlife. The best chance to make life more fare is for mankind to speak up against injustice when he finds it. The fact that life is not fare, is an argument against a just god. Stephen Fry had a famous response to this question.
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Post by snow on Sept 23, 2017 18:19:10 GMT -5
The Christian message is not that they have to do the right thing to be saved. It is the opposite. It is that we do mess up but we are forgiven because Jesus went to the Cross because we mess up. Christianity offers hope, unlike the non believer who has no reason to do right except for fear of jail or death. There are consequences for our wrong whether we like it or not. Lol, there ya go again. Atheists do right because they are decent people and they do wrong if they aren't decent people. Kind of like theists! Don't need the threat of hell to know that what we do to others makes a difference. When I was growing up in the 2x2's I was told to be good or I would go to hell. That's exactly what my nieces and nephews are being taught. I know because I've been there to hear it. I recognize that not all Christians believe this. Some believe you are saved by grace and in that case it would be more a message of hope. You only have to say I love Jesus and believe in him and you are saved. Or if you're catholic you can go confess everything every Sunday and it's all good. That makes more of a petition that it is a religion of hope. But it's not what all Christians believe so it's a religion of fear for some. I know I was scared of hell as a kid. I'm sure it wasn't just me.
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Post by Grant on Sept 23, 2017 18:33:22 GMT -5
No one said about believers or non believers being decent people, I said about being fallible because we are human and Christians knowing freedom from their mistakes in this life because they have the peace that they are forgiven. It's not about waiting until death but knowing you are forgiven here and now. They believe we don't have to carry the burden of their wrong because Jesus has done it.
You have a distorted view of Christanity. The focus and message is paradise. Some churches are critised because they don't preach hell fire and brimstone. Others don't believe in hell but heaven or nothing. The christian message is positive and looking up not down to hell.
Do you always look on the negative. Don't get into a relationship because of the potential for negative or do you look at the rewards. Do you see the glass half empty or half full?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 23, 2017 18:43:21 GMT -5
The Christian message is not that they have to do the right thing to be saved. It is the opposite. It is that we do mess up but we are forgiven because Jesus went to the Cross because we mess up. Christianity offers hope, unlike the non believer who has no reason to do right except for fear of jail or death. There are consequences for our wrong whether we like it or not. Christianity offers hope and freedom for our wrong here in the present whereas the non believer does not have this. Your second paragraph has a complete falsehood espoused by christians. I do not why this is, maybe to bolster their sagging butts. Non believers do right all the time simply because of love for humankind, because they and everyone has a moral compass. It could be said that the only reason why christians do good is because of a fear of missing out on a mythical eternity. How weak is that?
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Post by xna on Sept 23, 2017 18:54:12 GMT -5
Christianity offers hope, unlike the non believer who has no reason to do right except for fear of jail or death. People are nice because that's the way they want to be treated. They do not harm others because they don't want to be harmed in turn. We live in communities, so happiness and suffering of other human beings matter. An excerpt from: Myth: Atheists Have No Reason to be Mora
"The idea that atheists have no reason to be moral without a god or religion may be the most popular and repeated myth about atheism out there.....So what's the point of being moral if God doesn't exist? It's the same "point" that people should acknowledge if God does exist: because the happiness and suffering of other human beings matter to us such that we should seek, whenever possible, to increase their happiness and decrease their suffering. It's also the "point" that morality is required for human social structures and human communities to survive at all. Neither the presence nor the absence of any gods can change this, and while religious theists may find that their beliefs impact their moral decisions, they cannot claim that their beliefs are prerequisites for making any moral decisions at all."
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Post by Grant on Sept 23, 2017 19:10:45 GMT -5
Again curly, I was not talking about who does right or wrong I am talking about what Snow said about Christians believing that we are born in sin or words to that affect.
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Post by snow on Sept 23, 2017 19:43:54 GMT -5
No one said about believers or non believers being decent people, I said about being fallible because we are human and Christians knowing freedom from their mistakes in this life because they have the peace that they are forgiven. It's not about waiting until death but knowing you are forgiven here and now. They believe we don't have to carry the burden of their wrong because Jesus has done it. You have a distorted view of Christanity. The focus and message is paradise. Some churches are critised because they don't preach hell fire and brimstone. Others don't believe in hell but heaven or nothing. The christian message is positive and looking up not down to hell. Do you always look on the negative. Don't get into a relationship because of the potential for negative or do you look at the rewards. Do you see the glass half empty or half full? My point was that some people are decent and some are not. Doesn't matter if you're a theist or an atheist. You made the statement that atheists don't have any reason to do good except to stay out of jail. Which is very wrong. I don't do those things because it's wrong to do harm. Why is it wrong? Because it hurts someone else and in society we will always do better if we pull together and people can feel somewhat safe. No one likes to live in an unsafe environment and some people believe it's their responsibility to contribute to the well being of others. It is always better to act from a place of love rather than a place of obligation or for a reward like heaven. Or, like some Christians believe, not going to hell. Do you deny that the religion we grew up in didn't preach that we were saved by our deeds? I have the version of Christianity I was taught. Sure it was twisted, all religion is imo. Not every Christian believes they are saved by grace. Those that don't believe in saved by grace don't have any guarantees of heaven so that would not make it a religion of hope. Wishing, but not hope. It would be doing what they should do because of the fear of hell.
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Post by Grant on Sept 23, 2017 20:18:51 GMT -5
I did not say that atheists only do good because of the threat of jail. In response to your post about some Christians believing that we are born sinners and the threat of hell, I said that Christians can know a peace and forgiveness because they believe that Jesus died for their sins. Your lack of understanding of what many churches teach is getting in the way of your understanding what I am saying and what churches teach.
Yes the 2x2s preach a work based Gospel but I didn't hear the threat of hell all the time or often at all but the word lost was used... And the 2x2s are not all of Christanity. Christianity needs to be defined outside of our 2x2 experience.
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Post by rational on Sept 23, 2017 23:18:08 GMT -5
Is it fair that children inherit genetic diseases? I'm not advocating inherited sin but that nature and nurture are intertwined. It's that debate that no one is born a clean slate. We are all born with the potential to do wrong and we all do. There is no one who is born with a perfect 'sin free' nature. Taking our first breath shows our frailty and dependence on things outside ourselves. We live in an imperfect world and we are imperfect beings. This argument makes little sense in terms of sin. We have the potential to do wrong but at what point does that happen? According to doctrine a 6 month child that had not been baptized is doomed to hell for the sin that, according to your statement, s/he might or might not commit sometime in her/his life. But, for adventure, how does killing a person do anything about the wrongs of another? Sounds like the acts during the american civil war when a wealthy person could buy his way out of the army and have someone else go in his place. Then there is the notion of sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law. For an individual that does not believe in divine law, or a divine law giver, sin is not any more possible that it would be for someone to 'goof up' by committing an immoral act considered to be a transgression against wishes of the great unicorn. We are all born with a sin free nature. The concept of sin is something that has to be taught to children.
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otto2
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by otto2 on Sept 24, 2017 15:36:01 GMT -5
Is it fair that children inherit genetic diseases? I'm not advocating inherited sin but that nature and nurture are intertwined. It's that debate that no one is born a clean slate. We are all born with the potential to do wrong and we all do. There is no one who is born with a perfect 'sin free' nature. Taking our first breath shows our frailty and dependence on things outside ourselves. We live in an imperfect world and we are imperfect beings. This argument makes little sense in terms of sin. We have the potential to do wrong but at what point does that happen? According to doctrine a 6 month child that had not been baptized is doomed to hell for the sin that, according to your statement, s/he might or might not commit sometime in her/his life. But, for adventure, how does killing a person do anything about the wrongs of another? Sounds like the acts during the american civil war when a wealthy person could buy his way out of the army and have someone else go in his place. Then there is the notion of sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law. For an individual that does not believe in divine law, or a divine law giver, sin is not any more possible that it would be for someone to 'goof up' by committing an immoral act considered to be a transgression against wishes of the great unicorn. We are all born with a sin free nature. The concept of sin is something that has to be taught to children. I think not rational. You don't need to teach kids to lie and cheat and steal, they do it instinctively, it's in their nature. Admittedly it may not be over serious matters; maybe stealing their friend's pencil or somesuch and then denying it, or copying their friend's homework and saying they didn't, but they do it without question, right from the word go! But telling the truth? Now that's a concept that definitely needs to be taught, and over a great many years too. Some people never learn it.
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Post by xna on Sept 24, 2017 15:58:40 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 16:56:48 GMT -5
your statistic doesn't list every sin known to God...
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Post by xna on Sept 24, 2017 17:14:34 GMT -5
your statistic doesn't list every sin known to God... That is true. This just looks at crime (breaking the secular law). According to 1 John 3:4 KJV "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Can anyone name the Christian laws today? It seems like an important point. I know the Jews have 613 commandments.
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Post by snow on Sept 24, 2017 17:15:08 GMT -5
I did not say that atheists only do good because of the threat of jail. In response to your post about some Christians believing that we are born sinners and the threat of hell, I said that Christians can know a peace and forgiveness because they believe that Jesus died for their sins. Your lack of understanding of what many churches teach is getting in the way of your understanding what I am saying and what churches teach. Yes the 2x2s preach a work based Gospel but I didn't hear the threat of hell all the time or often at all but the word lost was used... And the 2x2s are not all of Christanity. Christianity needs to be defined outside of our 2x2 experience. We all knew what 'lost' meant. If I had a dollar for every time somebody told me I'm going to hell, I'd be rich, truly. I recognize that the 2x2's are in a group of Christians and some other traditional religions are a group separate from them while the RCC are separate again from everyone else. All these groups have similar doctrine though. Trouble is if you don't believe in God none of them bring any iota of comfort. I'm glad that you have found a church that brings you comfort.
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Post by rational on Sept 24, 2017 21:00:04 GMT -5
This argument makes little sense in terms of sin. We have the potential to do wrong but at what point does that happen? According to doctrine a 6 month child that had not been baptized is doomed to hell for the sin that, according to your statement, s/he might or might not commit sometime in her/his life. But, for adventure, how does killing a person do anything about the wrongs of another? Sounds like the acts during the american civil war when a wealthy person could buy his way out of the army and have someone else go in his place. Then there is the notion of sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law. For an individual that does not believe in divine law, or a divine law giver, sin is not any more possible that it would be for someone to 'goof up' by committing an immoral act considered to be a transgression against wishes of the great unicorn. We are all born with a sin free nature. The concept of sin is something that has to be taught to children. I think not rational. You don't need to teach kids to lie and cheat and steal, they do it instinctively, it's in their nature. Admittedly it may not be over serious matters; maybe stealing their friend's pencil or somesuch and then denying it, or copying their friend's homework and saying they didn't, but they do it without question, right from the word go! But telling the truth? Now that's a concept that definitely needs to be taught, and over a great many years too. Some people never learn it. I think you perhaps missed the point. Taking a pencil from another person might be wrong but it is not a sin. It becomes a sin to the child when they are taught that taking a pencil from another is against the divine law of god, but before that, the child has to be told about god and learn what is and is not acceptable to the particular god being worshiped. Children gain their moral compass by modeling the people who raise them. Sin only exists if the actor believes in a paranormal being and acts against the laws that are attributed to that particular paranormal being.
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Post by rational on Sept 24, 2017 21:11:36 GMT -5
Again curly, I was not talking about who does right or wrong I am talking about what Snow said about Christians believing that we are born in sin or words to that affect. While snow might have said it the bible said it first: Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
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Post by Grant on Sept 24, 2017 21:20:48 GMT -5
Children often lie to keep out of trouble. Are you saying their parents taught them to do this, Rational? I would say lying to keep out of trouble is more natural than taught. It can be reinforced by positive results and extinguished by punishment but how did the child know to do it in the first place? You can replace the word sin with doing wrong.
You say Rational, that children gain their moral code by modeling as if we are born immoral. I believe that we are born with a moral and immoral code which is shaped through reward and punishment. But of course this is often not the case as many people are punished and still continue to do the wrong thing and end up in jail which also does not help. Their moral code has been shaped by their upbringing. Personality also plays a part. We often see one child in a family go astray while the rest of the children are fine.
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Post by Grant on Sept 24, 2017 21:27:53 GMT -5
Again curly, I was not talking about who does right or wrong I am talking about what Snow said about Christians believing that we are born in sin or words to that affect. While snow might have said it the bible said it first: Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.I see that for once Eve is not blamed for sin entering the world but presumably it was talking about Adam. I also see that the word men is used and not woman. And to think women in those days had it hard in a male dominated world. Psalm 51:5. How do you know he is not talking about his mother having him out of wedlock? Back those days it was considered a sin.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 24, 2017 21:32:00 GMT -5
Children often lie to keep out of trouble . Are you saying their parents taught them to do this, Rational? I would say lying to keep out of trouble is more natural than taught. It can be reinforced by positive results and extinguished by punishment but how did the child know to do it in the first place? You can replace the word sin with doing wrong. You say Rational, that children gain their moral code by modeling as if we are born immoral. I believe that we are born with a moral and immoral code which is shaped through reward and punishment. But of course this is often not the case as many people are punished and still continue to do the wrong thing and end up in jail which also does not help. Their moral code has been shaped by their upbringing. Personality also plays a part . We often see one child in a family go astray while the rest of the children are fine. That conclusion depends on what you mean by going "astray."
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Post by Grant on Sept 24, 2017 21:39:13 GMT -5
Good thought Dmm. Going astray could simply be a child who is seen as non compliant because he/she is more independant than the others and takes the family out of its comfort zone. I could just be a child choosing not to profess. Rock the boat kind of thing. Often these children end up going places.
Going astray in my orignal context meant getting into trouble, as defined by the society they live in.
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Post by xna on Sept 24, 2017 21:40:05 GMT -5
While snow might have said it the bible said it first: Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. rational arguments based on the bible is; NOT rational!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 25, 2017 0:01:46 GMT -5
Again curly, I was not talking about who does right or wrong I am talking about what Snow said about Christians believing that we are born in sin or words to that affect. While snow might have said it the bible said it first: Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.No wonder some people today believe having sex with someone else is sinful. The writer of this verse was surely a crass person.
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Post by joanna on Sept 25, 2017 0:43:51 GMT -5
The concept of sin does not allow for nuance.
The deontological theory supports that to sin is wrong regardless of the consequences.
I have lied and would so so again if a similar situation arose. I presented a false and detailed explanation for my source of the knowledge of a situation which needed to be urgently addressed. The reason I lied was to protect a whistleblower who would almost certainly have been dismissed from their role had I revealed the true source of my information.
Consequentialism determines right from wrong by considering the consequences of the action. A lie can be a positive action. There are many instances where killing another has saved lives and was therefore also a positive action. There are other behaviours or actions labelled as sinful with no regard for the individual experiences.
Sin is a simplistic, inadequate and even a dangerous construct. It is a term which should be relegated to history.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 25, 2017 3:14:27 GMT -5
I think it depends on whether one has had a spiritual awakening or not. A spiritual awakening is an individual experience which connects one to a power greater than oneself - the consciousness of a power greater than oneself dwelling within which gives an assurance of guidance and a deep feeling of peace and satisfaction. In other words, it is an "experience", not a theory. One difficulty is that most spiritual awakenings are preceded by "faith" (a leap in the dark if you like) - at least that is how it was for me. It is way beyond my tiny brain to explain the detail of the "meaning of life" so I don't exercise myself in matters too great for me. I was planting some seeds recently and the thought struck me "What put something within this seed so that the roots know to grow down and the flower knows to grow up?". Did this happen by chance? I choose to think not but many would disagree! Continuer, that's good, it's also like Christ through the Spirit. Once the seed sinks into a soft heart, and the word takes root then being watered in the light, it grows and strengthens us, and then just as the flower grows and blossoms or a tree bares fruit, so do those born of God, they produce the fruit of the Spirit and then the love of God and the life of Christ is seen in and through them as they walk in the Spirit baring witness to the truth, following Jesus.
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