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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 15, 2019 5:50:31 GMT -5
Fixit, Christ/Jesus is God, who has the same essence/Spirit as the Father and the Holy Spirit before the Universe for created by THEM... You claimed you worship God the Father ONLY! Then WHY are you putting Jesus and the Holy Spirit on the same LEVEL as God the Father on your Sunday morning Worship fellowship gathering every Sunday day around the world by given thanks for emblems/Bread and Wine to Jesus for your and 2x2s Salvation? If you attended with ears to hear rather than a need to be heard, you wouldn't write as you do. Post of the Week fixit !!! He is so busy wanting to be heard or big note himself ! Thankfully there are very few people who take him seriously !
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Post by nathan on Jul 15, 2019 7:53:40 GMT -5
7/14/19 fixit (a 2x2 church elder has Sunday Worship/meeting in his home) said: I follow Jesus. I don't worship Jesus. Jesus was telling Satan that only the Lord God should be worshipped. He said to worship God the Father and no one else.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
It would seem that this makes me a heretic. Nathan, in case someone takes you seriously, I feel compelled to put the record straight. Are you trying to get me burned at the stake? You changed what I wrote! Jesus was telling Satan that only the Lord God should be worshipped.You seem to be twisting the scripture to fit your dogma. I follow Jesus. He said to worship God the Father and no one else.Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.It would seem that this makes me a heretic. You said you follow Jesus but You only want to worship ONLY the Father NOT the Son because he is NOT God according to your posts, and the verses you quoted. Am I right? you worship ONLY God the Father and him thou shalt served. You don't believe Jesus is God. I showed you many verses where people worshipped Jesus in the gospels and in Revelation, and Jesus did NOT tell people NOT to worship Him.
Are you denying that you worship ONLY God the Father and NOT Jesus?
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Post by nathan on Jul 15, 2019 8:01:07 GMT -5
Fixit, Christ/Jesus is God, who has the same essence/Spirit as the Father and the Holy Spirit before the Universe for created by THEM... You claimed you worship God the Father ONLY! Then WHY are you putting Jesus and the Holy Spirit on the same LEVEL as God the Father on your Sunday morning Worship fellowship gathering every Sunday day around the world by given thanks for emblems/Bread and Wine to Jesus for your and 2x2s Salvation? If you attended with ears to hear rather than a need to be heard, you wouldn't write as you do. I know what I heard and read notes from workers, and the many of the friends and exes posted on TMB and meetings for 40 yrs. Most of them don't believe Jesus is God. For almost 20 yrs, the readers on TMB KNOW what I am talking about, they can read and NOT stupid you know.
I have discussed with you about this subject for many years on TMB, even when you changed your names from Jesus only, and others names and now you post as fixit.
7/14/19 There are trillions species of intelligence life in the trillions galaxies in the Universe. The Venusians human looking angels from Interior planet are telling/showing us about different intelligence beings in our own galaxy.
The US and Russians gov't keep records of all kinds of et's visitors and those who have lived inside the inner earth for millions of yrs.
Fixit wrote: Do these trillions of species worship your trinity/God?
** Yes, MANY trillions species will come to KNOW and worship the Godhead/TRINITY when Christ/God Jesus returns as KING of kings and LORD of lords on earth and throughout the trillions galaxies in the Universe!
When Jesus returns He will grant His old and New Test. Believers resurrection bodies so that we will be able to teleport to trillions galaxies in the Universe to tell trillions species ABOUT THE Godhead/the TRINITY= God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit .. The CREATORS of ALL THINGS WE SEE and HAVE, during the 1000 yrs reign.
From the START, It was the Godhead/Father, Christ and Holy Spirit plans to create Adam, Eve and their children to RULE and REIGN with them throughout the Universe! God/Elohim said, "Let US create man in OUR image and in OUR Likeness!" If they HAD eaten the Tree of Life or chose Christ! They and their children had become immortals beings like God, But the Serpent/Satan hindered God's plan by deceiving Eve then she convinced Adam into sins, they picked the forbidden fruit/Satan and they became mortal human beings/Death here and now and for eternity.
In Genesis chapter 3:15 God/Christ had promised to Adam, Eve and their mortal human beings, He would come to defeat Satan as the god of this world, and that is through His Death on Calvary Cross, he would pay the ransom for our sins to Redeem ALL the humans souls from HADES/inner earth prisons, where Satan has been holding them as his prisoners/slaves until the Judgement DAY! to be cast in the Lake of Fire with Satan, 1/3 of fallen angels and their billions followers whom they deceived in believing/serving them as God on earth through false religions and 40,000 plus denominations of Christianity.
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Post by fixit on Jul 15, 2019 14:15:49 GMT -5
Nathan, in case someone takes you seriously, I feel compelled to put the record straight. Are you trying to get me burned at the stake? You changed what I wrote! You said you follow Jesus but You only want to worship ONLY the Father NOT the Son because he is NOT God according to your posts, and the verses you quoted. Am I right? you worship ONLY God the Father and him thou shalt served. You don't believe Jesus is God. I showed you many verses where people worshipped Jesus in the gospels and in Revelation, and Jesus did NOT tell people NOT to worship Him.
Are you denying that you worship ONLY God the Father and NOT Jesus?
Again Nathan, you are putting words in my mouth. Read and comprehend what I wrote without jumping to conclusions. Jesus was telling Satan that only the Lord God should be worshipped. You seem to be twisting the scripture to fit your dogma. I follow Jesus. He said to worship God the Father and no one else. Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. It would seem that this makes me a heretic.
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Post by nathan on Jul 15, 2019 14:44:45 GMT -5
You said you follow Jesus but You only want to worship ONLY the Father NOT the Son because he is NOT God according to your posts, and the verses you quoted. Am I right? you worship ONLY God the Father and him thou shalt served. You don't believe Jesus is God. I showed you many verses where people worshipped Jesus in the gospels and in Revelation, and Jesus did NOT tell people NOT to worship Him.
Are you denying that you worship ONLY God the Father and NOT Jesus?
Again Nathan, you are putting words in my mouth. Read and comprehend what I wrote without jumping to conclusions. Jesus was telling Satan that only the Lord God should be worshipped. You seem to be twisting the scripture to fit your dogma. I follow Jesus. He said to worship God the Father and no one else. Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. It would seem that this makes me a heretic. ** Let me ask you this point blank question. Do you, the 2x2 workers and the friends worship Jesus in your Sunday morning worship gathering every Sunday?
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Post by fixit on Jul 15, 2019 15:55:10 GMT -5
Nathan, I prefer to end this discussion because I don't trust you to interpret what I'm saying and relay it correctly.
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Post by nathan on Jul 15, 2019 16:49:19 GMT -5
Nathan, I prefer to end this discussion because I don't trust you to interpret what I'm saying and relay it correctly. ** I asked you a VERY simple question you wrote that you FOLLOW Jesus. So, I ask you, do you bow your head, heart, mind and soul to WORSHIP Jesus in your 2x2 Sunday morning worship gathering.
That is NOT a VERY difficult question is it? You are a 2x2 church elder and have fellowship with many 2x2 believers in your own home for MANY years so, you should be able to answer that simple question I would say.
ALL you have to say is Yes, I worship Jesus or NO, I do NOT worship Jesus. How can I misinterpret or change your answer?The Jehovah Witnesses teaches that we are to WORSHIP on God the Father and NOT the Son. We should worship only Jehovah. Psalm 83:18 says: “You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.” Jesus wanted people to know exactly who the true God is, and he taught people God’s name. (Read John 17:6.) Jesus said: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”
The Mormon teaching that Jesus and Satan are brothers is based on their concept of God being the Father of all pre-existent spirits. Since Jesus is the son of the Father and all other spirits, including Satan, are sons and daughters of the Father then all are brothers and sisters! www.bible-truth.org/jesusbro.htmIt's good and necessary a must to KNOW who we are worshiping.... How can we teach others when we are so confuse and don't know or understand Who we are worshiping. How can we teach anyone about God's truth and teachings when we don't understand or know the subject ourselves.
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Post by nathan on Jul 21, 2019 11:06:37 GMT -5
Jul 19, 2019 openingact34 said: Today, the worldlings are all celebrating the anniversary of Apollo 11 and looking forward to more cavorting about the solar system. But what does the Bible say about space exploration? "The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." - Psalm 115:16 You might say that the first "astronaut" was the devil, as described in Isaiah 14:12-16 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." Or perhaps John F. Kennedy is the better analogy. After announcing that mankind would ascend above the clouds into the heavens and walk upon the moon, he was struck down. Perhaps by God? Kennedy toured NASA only six days before his assassination. This is not simply an "Old Testament thing" either. In Acts 17:26, Paul preaches that God "hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation".One thing is sure: You cannot truly be a Christian and work in the aerospace area. We hope that those who are currently mired in the wickedness of designing and building rockets, satellites, and planes will prayerfully consider these matters, repent, and leave the aerospace field to secular people. ~~ I believe you have taken verses out of CONTEXT. If travel in Space is wicked and sinful as you put it then God is the worse sinner of them all, because after 1000 yrs reign with Christ and His people on earth and in the Universe is finished then God and ALL of the believers live in Space in their NEW city in heaven forever more. This Old earth will be destroyed with heavenly FIRE/meteorites from God.
By the way, Jesus came from heaven/Outer space to earth does make HIM a wicked person? He came from outer space to earth to die and redeem us from HELL/Everlasting Fire for eternity.
Rev. 21:1-8 And I/John the apostle saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and ladymongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Top 20 Most Bizarre UFO Sightings | www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqV9m7smO3A
Published on Aug 21, 2013
SETI researcher Seth Shostak bets that we will find extraterrestrial life in the next twenty-four years, or he'll buy you a cup of coffee. At TEDxSanJoseCA, he explains why new technologies and the laws of probability make the breakthrough so likely -- and forecasts how the discovery of civilizations far more advanced than ours might affect us here on Earth. There are BILLIONS earth like planets in our own Milky Way galaxy alone. There are more than Trillions galaxies out there. (Filmed at TEDxSanJoseCA.)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0m8WdR1FcQ
God, Christ and Holy Spirit don't need spaceship to travel. They teleport themselves from place to place in a matter of seconds, the New Resurrected Jesus could appear and disappear in a blink of an eye. The disciples locked their door because they were terrified of the enemy in finding them, then a blink of an eye Jesus appeared among them.
When Jesus returns we/believers in Christ will have the same New Resurrected body like he has, that will NEVER die, get sick, or grow old. We can teleport wherever we want in a blink of an eye, no need spaceship to travel anywhere in the Universe.
John the apostle wrote I John 3:2 Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when he/Jesus appears, we will be like him because we will see him as he is.
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Post by nathan on Jul 23, 2019 7:59:45 GMT -5
Jul 22, 2019 nathan said:
STR, Did you know that God the Father and the Holy Spirit sent out more apostles AFTER Jesus ascended back to heaven. Therefore, there has always been apostles on the earth NOT just the 12, 70, and Paul that Jesus sent out when he was living on the earth.
Before sending out the 12 and 70 Jesus asked them to PRAY to the Father in heaven, that HE will send forth MORE laborers into His harvest field.
There were MANY nations must have the gospel preached to them do you think the 12 apostles, and Paul could preach the gospel the next 2000 yrs? Does that make sense to you, STR? Their lifespan is average 70 yrs old, and it has been almost 2000 yrs. How do you think the 12 apostles and Paul were going to reach many of the nations have NOT been discovered yet! They would be ALL dead by the end of the 1st century.
Your hardline belief there WERE only 13 apostles makes no sense whatsoever! We are in living in the 21st century and those 12 apostles and Paul dead 2000 yrs ago. Therefore, God and the Holy Spirit must raise up more apostles for our generation wouldn't you THINK?1) STR wrote: You are the only person I’ve heard say apostle after the NT were . I’m talking only about those that JESUS called Apostles, which were the first 12. We have NO record otherwise except in your dreams.~~ Nathan: Yes, we have 2000 years history of Jesus TWO and TWO apostles ministry documented that I have shared it for over 20 yrs on TMB. Therefore, the 2x2 workers were NOT the ONLY ones came up with that idea in 1898. By the way, WI and the 2x2s workers got the TWO and TWO workers ministry from the Faith Mission, founder John Govan in 1886 and He got that idea from Holiness Movement, and they got it from others before them...Title: The Pilgrim Church Author: E. H. Broadbent
Chapter V history of the Vaudois/WaldensesThe Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulicans, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity. When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles. To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles." When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith." gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.htmlThe short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord. And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it. www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century. In J. Newton Brown's "Encyclopedia of religious Knowledge:
We are given the following account of the Origin of the name "Waldenses:" The Valleys are called 'Vaux', whence 'Vaudois' and Peter Waldo is said to have borne the name "Waldo", because he was a "Follower" of that sect. The Waldenses taught that the Roman Church DEPARTED from it former sanctity and purity in the time of Emperor Constantine the Great (A.D. 320). The Waldenses, therefore, "Refused" to submit to the usurped power of its pontiff. In Germany---and later, in England---many of the Waldenses were called "Lollards," as some believe, after the celebrated Water Lollard, of Germany, who exercised his ministry in the early part of the 14th century. Fuller, However, informed us that in the reign of Edward III, about (A.D. 1315). Walter Lollard, a German preacher or as Perrin in his "History of the Waldenses," calls him one of the "Barbs" (Pastor) of great renown among them, came into England, and was so eminent in England, and as in France they were called "Berengarians" from Berengarius, and "Petrobrusians" from Peter Bruis; and in Italy and Flanders "Arnoldists" from the famous Arnold of Brescia. So did the Waldensian Christians, for many generations afterwards, bear the name of this worthy man, being called "Lollards." Long before the Reformation, the Waldenses had planted their churches and disseminated their doctrine in almost all the provinces of Europe, particular in France, Germany, Bohemia, Moravia, Switzerland, Holland, and England. In about (A.D. 1158), about 30 persons of Waldensian sect came over into England to disseminate their doctrine. We have mentioned of them in England in (A.D. 1182). Bishop Usher mentions the order of the Friar Minorities coming to England in (A.D. 1235) to "Surpress" the Waldensian heresy.
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Post by nathan on Jul 23, 2019 8:06:41 GMT -5
A History of the Christian Church by William Jones first edition 1812 Chapter 5--section 3.
A view of doctrinal sentiments and religious practices of the Waldenses, collected from their own writings. Their historian, John Paul Perrin, in his "Histoitre des Vaudois," published at Geneva in 1619, has furnished us with two of their "Confessions of Faith," of which the following are faithful translations. Sir Samuel Morland has fixed the date of the first of them in the Year 1120 A.D. [Morland's History of the Churches of Peidmont, Page. 30]
The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120)
1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the Apostles' Creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles.
2. We believe that there is One Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible.
4. The books above mentioned teach us---that that there is ONE GOD, almighty, unbounded in the wisdom, in infinite in goodness, and who, in his goodness, has made all things. For he created Adam after his own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam.
6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display his grace and mercy toward us.
7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness---our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for justification.
8. And we also firmly believe, that there in NO other mediator, or advocate with God the Father, but Jesus Christ. And as to the Virgin Mary, she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and this we also believe concerning all others Saints, namely, that they are waiting in heaven for the resurrection of their bodies at the Day of Judgment.
9. We also believe, that after this life, there are but two places---One for those who are Saved, and other for the Damned, which [two] we call paradise and hell, wholly denying Purgatory of Antichrist, invented in opposition to the truth.
10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions of men (in the affairs of religion) as an unspeakable abomination before God; such as the festivals days, and vigils of Saints, and what is called holy-water, the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like things, but above all, the Masses.
11. We hold in abhorrence all human inventions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce distress [alluding probably to the voluntary penances and mortification imposed by the Catholics on themselves] and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind.
12. We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard it as proper and even necessary that believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that believers may be saved without these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of observing them.
13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper.
14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshiping of dead saints is idolatry.
The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists.
From: The Heroic of Men & Women for religion of Jesus Christ by James D. McCabe. (1881) The Valleys of Piedmont:
Within this little areas, scarcely larger than the District of Columbia, USA. Has existed from remote times a peculiar race of people, rarely numbering more than 20,000. The have retained their primitive appearance and manners to a greater degree than almost any other European community. They have always been noted for the simplicity and purity of their lives, and their absolute freedom from the ignorance, superstition, and vice which have cursed the countries around them. The men are tall, well made, graceful in action, vigorous and hardly. The women are fair, endowed with a native grace and refinement, and have always been noted for their chastity and modest deportment. Both sexes are frank, hospitable, peaceful, and forbearing in disposition. Soon after the introduction of Christianity into Italy by the Apostles, the people of these valleys became converts to the faith preached by Paul the apostle. They accepted and taught the doctrines of the Apostles, and practiced the simple rites or usages as described by Justin or Tellurian. They acknowledge the Holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, and rejected all that was not taught in the books of the New Testament.
From the days of Constantine (the Roman Emperor who became a Christian) to the present time, they have never changed their faith, and have never altered in any important particular their religious observances. The Vaudois themselves called themselves only by the name of Christians. They were required to commit to memory the Gospels of Matthew and John, the general epistles, and a part of those of Paul. They were instructed, moreover, during two or three successive winters, and trained to speak in Latin, and in Italian. They were supported by voluntary contributions of the believers. One part was given to the ministers, once to the poor, and the third was reserved for the missionaries of the Church. These missionaries always Went Forth Two and Two, to wit, a young man and old one. The latter was the Regidor, and his COMPANION the Coadjutor.
They traveled to Italy, where they had stations organized in many places, and secret adherents in almost all the towns. Each minister was required to become a missionary in his turn. The younger ones were thus initiated into the delicate duties of evangelization--each of them being under the experienced guidance of a man of years, who according to the discipline of his church, was his superior, and whom he was bound to obey in everything as a matter of duty, and not merely out of deference. The Old man, on his part, thus made his preparation for repose, by training for the Church Successors worthy of it and of himself. His task being accomplished, he could die in peace, with consolatory assurance of having Committed the Sacred Trust of the Gospel into Prudent and Zealous hands. Their maintenance of the absolute authority of the Word of God, and of the doctrine of Salvation by Jesus Christ.
The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy. In the annual synod (special gatherings), which was held in the Valleys, inquiry was made concerning the conduct of the ministers and changes of residence were made amongst them. Those actually employed in the ministry were changed from place to place every three years---two of them always exchanging places with another, except the aged men, who were no longer removed. The Vaudois were bound to visit the sick; they admonished those who behaved ill, and if remonstrance's produced no effect, they went to length of Excommunication; but it was very rare.
Their preaching, catechizing, and other exercise of instruction and devotion, were generally similar to those of reformed Churches, except that the worshippers pronounced, with a low voice, the prayer which preceded and that which followed the sermon. They Vaudois likewise had hymns, which they only sung in private, and which, moreover, agrees with what we know of the customs of the primitive Church. Their doctrines were equally analogous, or rather were remarkably identical with those of the Apostolic times, and of the earliest fathers of the Church.
They may be briefly summed up in these few words: The absolute authority and inspiration of the Bible-- The Trinity, the Godhead---- The sinful state of man--- Free Salvation by Jesus Christ--- But above all, Faith working by Love. Their missionaries were everywhere, proclaiming the SIMPLE truths of Christianity, and stirring the hearts of men and women to their very Depths. In Hungary, in Bohemia, in France, in England, in Scotland, as well in Italy, they were working with tremendous, through Silent power. Such was the organization, and such were the doctrines of the Apostolic Church of the Valleys of Piedmont.
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Post by nathan on Jul 27, 2019 8:37:55 GMT -5
~~ Whathat wrote: Many of these movements have their roots in Methodism. Basically Methodists were against pre-destination and had a greater emphasis on works. Out of Methodism, came the Holiness Movement which was heavily influenced by John Wesley's essay on Christian Perfection. (The Wesleys were the original Methodists.)
The above mentioned 'Church of Christ' and other branches of the 'Disciples of Christ' all came out of the Holiness Movement branch of early Methodism. The wiki articles on 'Holiness Movement' and 'Disciples of Christ' have all been improved over time and contain further information.
I've previously argued that there is a succession of ideas from the Catholic church to Waldensians to Moravian church to John Wesley to the Faith Mission and to the 2x2 workers and Friends. Along the way, there are many other off shoots that are similar to the Friends, like the ongoing Faith Mission, the Keswick Convention and the Brunstad Christian Church.
The Brunstad Christian church is particularly interesting because it's teachings are very similar to the friends (or, two by twos) and yet the two movements know nothing of each other. However, both movements in their early days had involvement with the seminal Keswick Convention, so their respective teachings do have common historical roots.
May 28, 2019 snow said: 1) But you're not stating that the 2x2's were actually Waldensians and therefore from the shores of Galilee like Nathan keeps claiming, right? The Waldensians believed in transubstantiation and infant baptisms and a few more very Catholic beliefs. What about the Waldensians makes you add them into the denominations like the 2x2's? ~~ Whathat wrote: The Waldensians had itinerant preachers that travelled in pairs.
The Waldensians influenced the early Moravians, even though the Moravians today are little distinguished from other Protestant churches.
www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-1986-10-10-2555896-story.html See archive.org/stream/historyofmoravia00huttuoft/historyofmoravia00huttuoft_djvu.txt
(The voice in the night). The Moravian missionaries (guess how they travelled), had a profound influence on John Wesley, then an Anglican preacher.
www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-1/moravians-and-john-wesley.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley
The first paragraphs of the wiki biography of Wesley are interesting. You see how he moved doctrinally away from the Church of England, and the Calvinists, was influenced by the Moravians, and wrote a significant essay called 'On Christian Perfection'. Wesley wrote dozens of essays, but this one is central to Wesleyan teaching "that, in this life, Christians could achieve a state where the love of God "reigned supreme in their hearts", giving them outward holiness. [Wesley's] evangelicalism, firmly grounded in sacramental theology, maintained that means of grace were the manner by which God sanctifies and transforms the believer, encouraging people to experience Jesus Christ personally. Wesley's teachings, collectively known as Wesleyan theology, continue to underpin the doctrine of the Methodist Churches."
If you read the essay, and there are different versions, but I mean the one that runs 100+ pages, it bears little relation to Methodist teaching today, and is very compatible with workers' preaching. I don't think Wesley actually organized a denomination. He and his band of preachers came to be called Methodists, and the church formed later. But his teachings spawned all kinds of movements.
It's an interesting trail, and I see the concept of Arminianism winds into it. This Spring, I wandered into an old church in Leiden, Holland which was a Pilgrim colony - persecuted in England they went to Leiden, NL. Quite a few of them from Holland and England then went to eastern North America, now the USA, and this new colony was so successful that the Leiden colony, which came under increasing persecution from the Calvinists, folded.
2) snow said: Yes I know that they went in pairs. But many of their beliefs when they first started were exactly the same as the RCC. They just didn't agree with the level of prosperity of the RCC. So I still don't know if you think that the 2x2 church is just a continuation of the Waldensians like Nathan claims, or that it is in no way connected and just shares some of the 2x2 ways of operating, like the pairs of ministers?
~~ Whathat wrote: I had this question at the back of my mind the last few days. Although I haven't bothered much with it the last few years, I did spend some time a few years ago thinking and learning about the historicity of the early workers. (Historicity meaning "the feature of our human situation by which we are located in specific concrete temporal and historical circumstances"). To digress a bit, I like to do that ... this Winter I took an in depth course on the Pierre Trudeau years, which was fascinating, revealing and often surprising. For example, did you know that Pierre read to his sons every day, and they always began with a Bible reading? That should get 10 more votes in Alberta.
Anyway, I don't view the workers movement as solely centred on a single charismatic leader with a quack interpretation of theology. I see them dissatisfied with established church theology, but located in a very broad movement to return to the Biblical text and a perceived simplicity of the early church as they understood it (This tendency is termed 'restorationism'). The broad movement was the "Third Great Awakening" and within that, the Holiness Movement.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Great_Awakeningen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movementA significant development within this entire movement was the idea of itinerant preachers who were not attached to a single congregation, and could not be controlled by a church hierarchy, but lived by attracting multi-denominational crowds and travelling from place to place. One of the first of these was Dwight L. Moody. This was not an easy thing to do - break free from the hierarchy, and in a sense, live on "faith" that God will provide, because reverends/parsons who controlled a distinct congregation often felt threatened by this and sometimes worked against it.
After Moody, there was the Faith Mission, Keswick Convention, China Inland Mission and other such preaching efforts around the Holiness doctrine. (If you read Christian Perfection by Wesley - gives you an idea of the belief.)
Many of these travelled in pairs, but that would be a natural consequence of trying to restore the early New Testament church. Not unusual, looked at that way. A single minister with a congregation, which is the norm of conventional Christianity, right or wrong, isn't prescribed by the Bible.
William Irvine was a "rebel" within the Faith Mission, but I feel it wasn't Irvine it would have been someone else. I think of it this way. Faith Mission were lay preachers who went town to town, but sought to co-operate with local established churches. They did hold mid-week prayer meetings, similar to friends' worship meeting. It was only natural, that in Ireland especially, some folks would be disaffected with the established churches, and say, let's just keep doing this - their weekly prayer meetings. Irvine provided the tenacity and ego to go it alone, and John Long provided the sincerity and integrity to the Bible to ensure the movement was credible.
There were other, very similar, parallel results from this time - Brunstad Movement, Keswick Convention, ongoing Faith Mission, Cooneyites, and even earlier, Church of God (Anderson, Indiana), Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) - and so on.
It does become highly problematic to think that the Bible prescribed exactly what the friends do in every detailed manifestation of their practices. For example, whither "fields"? Sure apostles went in different directions, but to all appearances drifted with the wind and were led by the Spirit. So, nothing wrong with "fields" on the basis of some commons sense principle, but you're going to have problems if you think that there was a church movement with "fields", printed lists of worker assignments, and so on, that predates 1910.
What about the hymn book, the particular manner of women's hair, and other particularities? These all began at a particular point in history. So, when people think of a movement that began at Galilee, what exactly are they thinking of? And why would any other "restoration" movement NOT qualify as going back to Galilee.
("Fields" were an issue for Edward Cooney, and the establishment of the practice led to his exit. The idea that the NT text provides a complete description of church polity has proven highly problematic, with a lot of complex literal textual analysis of the Bible to backup each little nuance of difference between the various movements. This sparks all manner of creative interpretation and bending and twisting to get to this or that particular practice within each different movement.)
And brilliantly satirized by Emo Phillips, as follows:youtu.be/WjQTiD3tzAkprofessing.proboards.com/post/846957/quote/28238?page=1
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Post by nathan on Jul 28, 2019 8:35:22 GMT -5
~~ Jul 27, 2019 Nathan wrote: The 2x2 are the 21st century apostles/workers from 1898 to now and to the time of Jesus returns. There were 2x2 apostles/workers Vaudois, Paulicans, Waldenses of Lyon, France, and MANY more like them throughout Europe and other countries for centuries! who had done it before the 2x2 workers/apostles for 1800 yrs.
1) STR, ex-2x2: Well, if that’s true; then the workers’ church can’t be the only true church! It’s impossible!
~~ nathan said: STR, Do you KNOW of any church that is out there LIKE the 1st century church that Jesus and apostles started? Who, and where is it today?
We read in Matthew 24 when Jesus returns His church will be gathered from all over the earth! So, Where's that church/assembly of believers that Jesus and the apostles started... as you claimed there are NO more apostles today! but when Jesus returns it seemed the ministry of apostles was ALIVE and WELL on the earth when that time comes
2) Enuff ex-2x2 wrote: No, there is no church out there like the 1st century church. We're in the 21st century in case you didn't know. And we don't live in Israel so have very little idea of life back then. You've tried to compare something from 1st century Israel into todays culture. Doesn't work.
~~ Nathan: The scriptures and the apostles Peter, Paul and John have warned about the EX-2x2s had happened in their days, through the centuries and has happened in ours days also so, please take heed, learn and REPENT before it too late.
~~ Peter wrote in II Peter 2: 1-22.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceiving while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
~~ Paul wrote in II Timothy 3:1-14
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them.
~~ John the apostle wrote I John 2:18-19
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
3) STR wrote: Jesus laid the foundation while on earth. Foundations don’t need to be laid more then once. Ephesians 4 tells us what Jesus gave for his ministry.
Nathan: I AM NOT talking about laying the 12 apostles foundation again! IT already been done but EACH generation of servants and His people in every century through the ages are to CONTINUE to BUILD ON the foundations of the 12 apostles, prophets and Jesus Christ the chief corner stone had LAID already.... To the time of Jesus returns Matthew 28 the GREAT commission to PREACH and TEACH to ALL nations through down the ages to the end of Gentiles era or that God have given the Gentiles from many nations to be SAVED through the gospel of Jesus Christ SAVES sinners.
Paul wrote in Eph 2:19-20 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.
Paul wrote in I Cor. 3:10-15 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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Post by nathan on Aug 4, 2019 8:54:15 GMT -5
Aug 2, 2019 23:16:00 jetmech said: What about the Disciples who Jesus instructed to give up all that they have and follow him? How was it again .... " ... No script for their journey ..." and so on ... wouldn't one consider that the same system?" Doesn't a child mimic their parents? Isn't this how a child learns who they are ... by mimicking their parents? I don't believe the 2X2 way is so much about being 'packaged' and 'stamped' as it is about 'mimicking"'and 'modeling' the true way 1) RossB: Yes, the disciples followed Jesus but they did not sell all and Jesus did not instruct them to sell all. They went on a short-term mission (about 6 weeks) to the cities in Galilee to tell them that the Messiah has come. They then returned. I am sure Jesus stayed many times in Peter’s home in Capernaum (Matthew 8:14-16) - a city which was the center of His ministry and where He spent a considerable amount of time. And Jesus, on the cross, would have hardly asked John to look after His mother if John didn’t have a home or the means to do so. It’s not clear to me why workers believe that the apostles sold all and had nothing. I guess it’s just historical revisionism designed to fit into their modern 2x2 narrative. ~~ NathanB: The 2x2 workers follow the teaching of Jesus Matthew 19:21-29." If thou (the rich young ruler) will be Perfect, go and SELL that thou has, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasures in heaven, and come and follow me." Jesus offered this rich young ruler a place in the ministry! but he refused because the wealth he had. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."There are TWO main callings in the New Testament covenants or teachings of Jesus and the apostles: Romans 1:1,7 Perhaps, this historical documents of the Vaudois Christians teachings/belief= Paul's converts and the apostles through the centuries will help you to understand the New Testament Two callings. The 2x2 workers/apostles and friends/followers of Jesus have MANY similar belief and teachings to the Vaudois and those like them through the centuries.2) RossB: The Vaudois/Waldenses teaching/belief: The Pilgrim Church by E. H. Broadbent Sending forth the Vaudois/apostles preachers into the world. Two callings: Apostles and Disciples. ~~ Nathan: Some among the brethren devoted themselves entirely to traveling and ministering the Word and were called "the Perfect" and in accordance with the Lord's word in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou will be Perfect, go and SELL that thou has, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasures in heaven, and come and follow me." The apostles or the Perfect "Possess nothing," they had NO homes, and Literally Acted upon this command.It was recognize that ALL believers are NOT call to such a path, and that the MAJORITY of believers, while acknowledge that they and ALL belong to Christ, should serve Him while "Remaining" in their families and continuing their usual occupations. Those whom they called "Apostles" played an important part in their testimony. While the elders of the churches and believers "Remained" in their homes, the "Apostles" traveled continually, visiting the churches. A distinction was made between those called to be Apostles or Perfect, and others followers of Christ, based on the fact that in the Gospel some were called to "SELL ALL" that they had and follow Christ, while others of His disciples were equally called to serve Him in the surroundings in which He found them. The Vaudois/Waldensian Apostles had NO property or goods or home or family; if they HAD these they left them. Their life was one of self-denial, hardship and danger. They traveled in utmost simplicity, without money, without second suit, their needs being supplied by the "Believers" among whom they ministered the Word. They Always go Two and Two, an elder and a younger man, of whom the latter waited on his older companion. (no need for theological training since the younger companion gets on-the-job training guidance from the older companion and the Holy Spirit). No need for seminary school since the Holy Spirit is the only Teacher they need. Their visits were highly esteemed, and they were treated with every token of respect and affection. They NEVER ask for anything; indeed, many undertook serious medical studies that they might be able to care for the bodies of those they met with. The Name "Friends of God" was often given to them. They were required to commit to memory the Gospels of Matthew and John, the general epistles, and a part of those of Paul. They were instructed, moreover, during two or three successive winters, and trained to speak in Latin, and in Italian. They were supported by voluntary contributions of the believers. One part was given to the ministers, once to the poor, and the third was reserved for the missionaries of the Church. These missionaries always Went Forth Two and Two, a young man and old one. The latter was the Regidor, and his COMPANION the Coadjutor. They traveled to Italy, where they had stations organized in many places, and secret adherents in almost all the towns. Each minister was required to become a missionary in his turn. The younger ones were thus initiated into the delicate duties of evangelization--each of them being under the experienced guidance of a man of years, who according to the discipline of his church, was his superior, and whom he was bound to obey in everything as a matter of duty, and not merely out of deference. The Older man, on his part, thus made his preparation for repose, by training for the Church Successors worthy of it and of himself. His task being accomplished, he could die in peace, with consolatory assurance of having Committed the Sacred Trust of the Gospel into Prudent and Zealous hands. Their maintenance of the absolute authority of the Word of God, and of the doctrine of Salvation by Jesus Christ. The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy. In the annual synod (special gatherings), which was held in the Valleys, inquiry was made concerning the conduct of the ministers and changes of residence were made amongst them. Those actually employed in the ministry were changed from place to place every three years---two of them always exchanging places with another, except the aged men, who were no longer removed. The Vaudois were bound to visit the sick; they admonished those who behaved ill, and if remonstrance's produced no effect, they went to length of Excommunication; but it was very rare. The "Brethren", themselves, were great preachers, for there had always been amongst them missionary preachers, called "apostles," simply meaning thereby, "Person Sent." These apostles went out TWO and TWO, generally an older and a younger man. When they reached a house of a "Brother," they were lodged and fed gladly, for all the "Brethren" were taught that God was pleased, if His messengers were lovingly welcome in his name. Many of these preachers were students of medicine, and, therefore, their journey from land to land were what we should call a "medical mission." But, the object was the SOUL. And, faithfully, bravely, and diligently did they give themselves up to this great and blessed work. Title: The Pilgrim Church Author: E. H. Broadbent Chapter V history of the Vaudois/Waldenses gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.html
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Post by nathan on Aug 10, 2019 7:59:14 GMT -5
Enuff wrote: Well, the Waldensians could not be futher from the 2x2s. 2x2 statement of faith. The church in the home and 2x2 ministers. I did not read that in the so called Waldensians confession of faith.
1. They believe in the apostles creed. A Catholic church document and statement of faith. 2. They believe in the One Godhead - trinity. The workers put out workers who preach this. 8. The Waldensians confess no other mediator but Jesus Christ. No workers which Nathan has been promoting as needing to though.
No comparison to the Waldensians which Nathan says are the workers forefathers. ~~ Nathan: What you exes don't KNOW or understand is in 15th century there was a BIG break off from the Vaudois main group and they joined and became the Reformation movement, some of them joined the Protestant Reformers and became part of the Reformation in the 16-18th century.
The Main group of the Vaudois continued holding TRUE to Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship.The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship by Cornelius J. Jaenen give us an insight some of the Waldenses joined the Protestants Reformation in 1532 A.D.
From 1509 to 1564, there lived another of the greatest of the reformers. This was John Calvin, a Frenchman, but seeming at the time to be living in Switzerland. He was really a mighty man. He was a contemporary of Martin Luther for 30 years, and was 22 years old when Zwingli died. Calvin is the accredited founder of the Presbyterian church. Some of the historians, however, give that credit to Zwingli, but the strongest evidence seems to favor Calvin. Unquestionably the work of Zwingli, as well as that of Luther, made much easier the work of Calvin. So in 1541, just eleven years (that seems to be the year), after the founding by Luther of the Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church came into existence. It too, as in the case of the Lutherans, was led by a reformed Catholic priest or at least official. These six — Wycliffe, Huss, Savonarola, Zwingli, Luther and Calvin, great leaders in their great battles for reformation, struck Catholicism a staggering blow. In 1560, nineteen years after Calvin's first organization in Geneva, Switzerland, John Knox, a disciple of Calvin, established the first Presbyterian Church in Scotland, and just thirty-two years later 1592, the Presbyterian became the State Church of Scotland. The departure of the Swiss Waldenses/Vaudois in 1532 A.D. In 1532 Swiss Protestants began sending emissaries among the Waldensian in an effort to absorb them into the Reformation and give themselves as historical foundation in the earlier revival movements. At a Colloquium held at Chanforan many Waldensian preachers were OPPOSED to renouncing their ideals of Celibacy, Itinerant and Poverty, also their teaching concerning the necessity of good works to accompany faith. Two Barb's (preachers), Daniel de Valence and Jean de Molines, withdrew to consult with Czech brethren of similar persuasion at Malta Boleslav. A second colloquium was held with the Swiss Calvinists at Prali in 1533 at which a report of the two emissaries to Bohemia was considered. When the Protestants delegates succeeded in CONVINCING a MAJORITY to join them, Daniel de Valence and Jean de Molines withdrew. Matej Cervenka, a Bohemian coreligionist, met John Calvin in Strasbourg during the summer of 1540 and left a brief account of his interview. In 1555 the first Calvinist TEMPLE was erected in the Waldensian territory, marking the abandonment of their earlier beliefs. Their itinerant ministry came to an end with the death of the last barben (preacher), Gilles des Gilles. By 1560s most of the Waldensian had abandoned their earlier positions and had ACCEPTED reorganization along Calvinists lines, in part for political reasons. Contact with reformers in Germany and Switzerland, in 1520, demonstrated that they had similar ideals. The Italian Waldensian decided to join the Reform Church and declared themselves Protestants. They built their first Protestant church structure in 1555. (Prior to that date the Catholic-dominated governments outlawed them from building churches and destroyed any churches they did build. The Waldensian had usually worshiped secretly in homes or even caves.) The Calvinists also claimed that the Cathars and Waldensian were their precursors, in order to identify themselves with the earlier idealistic and ideological movements. waldensianpresbyterian.org/ Another link to read www.chiesavaldese.org/eng/pages/beliefs/waldensians.php 1) Martin Luther, in the year 1588, published the Confessions of the Waldenses, to which he wrote a preface. In that preface he candidly acknowledge that, in the days of his Popery he had HATED the Waldenses, as persons who were consigned over to perdition. But having understood from their confessions and writings the piety of their faith, he perceived that those good men had been greatly wronged whom the Pope had condemned as Heretics; for that, on the contrary they were rather entitled to the praise due to holy martyrs. He adds, that among them he had found one thing worthy of admiration, a thing unheard of in the Popeish church, that, laying aside the doctrines of men, they meditated in the law of God, day and night; and they were expert, and even well versed in the acknowledge of the Scriptures. Some of them had NOT so much as known who are called masters, wholly neglected the Scriptures, and some of them had not so much as seen the Bible at any time. Moreover, having read the Waldensian Confession, he said he returned thanks to God for the great light, which it had pleased him to bestow upon that people. 2) Theodore Beza, the contemporary and colleague of Calvin, says, "As for the Waldenses, I may be permitted to call them the very seed of the Primitive and Purer Christian Church, since they are those that have been upheld, as is abundantly manifest, by the wonderful providence of God, so that neither those endless storms and tempests by which the whole Christian world has been shaken for so many succeeding ages, and the western parts at length so miserably oppressed by the bishop of Rome, falsely so called; nor those horrible persecutions which have been expressly raised against them, were ever able so far to prevail as to make them bend, or yield a voluntary subjection to the Roman tyranny and Idolatry." [Preface to Morland's History, Page 7]. On other occasion the same writer remarks that, "The Waldenses, time out of mind, have opposed the abuses of the Church of Rome, and have been persecuted after such a manner, not by the sword of the word of God, but by every species of cruelty, added to a MILLION of calumnies and false accusations, that they have been compelled to disperse themselves wherever they could, wandering through the deserts like wild beasts." "The Lord, nevertheless, has so preserved the residue of them, that, notwithstanding the rage of the whole world, they still inhabit 3 countries at a great distance from each other, Calabria, Bohemia, and Piedmont, and the countries adjoining, where they dispersed themselves from the quarters of Provence about 270 years ago. They never adhered to Papal superstitions; for which reason they have been continually harassed by the bishops and inquisitors abusing the arm of secular justice, so that their continuance to the present time is evident miraculous" [History of the Reformed Churches in France, Tom. 1, Book 1, Page 35 in Perrin, Book 1, Chapter 6]. 3) Daniel de Valence and Jean de Molines, instead of conforming themselves to the resolutions that had been discussed and approved, in resentment withdrew themselves into private life, but NOT without giving a testimony of their displeasure and indignation, that they dispersed the greatest possible number of manuscripts and ancient memoirs of the Waldesians that would have been useful to all us now, and to posterity. 4) Calvinist declared that he too was part of the Waldensians movement, although he had distanced himself from them because he found himself in disagreement with them because of doctrine. John Calvin became one of the Co-the founders of the Presbyterian church. www.johncalvinpresbyterian.org/
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Post by nathan on Aug 11, 2019 9:19:49 GMT -5
Aug 10, 2019 nathan said:
It is you/STR the doubting Thomas... The information I got on the Waldenses are from the Vaudois historian themselves and other non-Waldenses church historian. Let me ask you again. Where did you get the information in the 1900 that you claimed the Waldenses were NOT Paul's own converts from Rome before he was beheaded by Nero the Emperor.
~~ Dmg (ex-2x2 now is an atheist) wrote: Nathan, I am sure that you aren't the only one that would like very much to believe that the *THRUTH* fellowship, as we know it, went all the way back to the original apostles. But is just wishful thinking because they Want to believe.
With the way the Catholic church rooted out every one who preached anything contrary to Catholic doctrine, it would have been impossible for anyone to survive. It just did NOT happen. The early workers relied on people being unaware of history of Christianity in order for them to claim that the *TRUTH* fellowship went all the way back to the early apostles. It was really inexcusable for the workers to do that. They themselves were learned men & knew better than that!
~~ Nathan wrote: You ex-2x2s, atheists and doubting Thomas are out there, don't KNOW or UNDERSTAND the Power of the ALMIGHTY God. You exes, atheists and doubting Thomas are out there, don't KNOW or UNDERSTAND the Power of the ALMIGHTY God. Jesus said to Peter 2000 yrs ago, "Upon this ROCK I will build MY CHURCH! and the gates of HELL/Satan, shall NOT able to prevail/STOP against it." Matthew 16:18
Jesus TRUE 2x2 apostolic ministry/servants and church/believers persecuted, hunted down like dogs but they survived through the centuries, it was foretold and recorded by John the apostle 2000 yrs ago.
You must READ, STUDY the Bible and church history then you will see and understanding the ALMIGHT God's wisdom, plans and POWER!. Rev. chapter 11 about Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry through the centuries.
Rev. 11:1-6 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth (Gentiles era opportunity in preaching/believing the gospel of Jesus Christ who SAVES! to the time of Jesus returns!) .
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. (The Church is RAPTURED! after the full numbers of believers have gathered up, then Jesus returns!)
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev. chapter 12-13. the New Testament church survived through Satan's onslaught by manipulating the false religions/RCC and Protestants to do his killing, tortured of Jesus TRUE church on the earth but God has preserved and protected the bride/church of Christ until Jesus returns.
Rev. 12:9-17 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (Mary the wife of Joesph) which brought forth the man/Jesus child.
14 And to the woman (the TRUE church/the Bride of Christ) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman/bride of Jesus, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev. 13: 4-8 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast/unholy RCC church/atheists gov'ts: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him/Satan to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him/Satan, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev. chapters 14-15. Rev. 14:1-6 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
~~ Here is God's judgement on the BEAST/RCC and her 40,000 Protestants daughters and atheists gov'ts that helped the Woman/RCC to persecute and try to wipe out Jesus church/people and servants on the earth.
Rev. 14:7-13 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev. chapters 17-18 John the apostle revealed Who is the Woman/false bride of Christ rides/controls the Beast/unholy kings, emperors, and atheists gov'ts have tried to destroy the TRUE church of God on the earth but God has protected and preserved to the time of Jesus returns!
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Post by nathan on Aug 11, 2019 9:59:02 GMT -5
Rev. chapter 17 The Woman/false bride RCC rides/controls/rule over kings, emperors, and Billions of people on earth
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great lady that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth/Vatican Rome. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the lady sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the lady, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city/Vatican Rome, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Rev. chapter 18 God's judgement on the Woman/false bride of Christ
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
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Post by nathan on Aug 11, 2019 10:50:01 GMT -5
Rev. 19 God's Marriage Super for the Lamb of God/Jesus with His redeemers from the earth.
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great lady, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God (John chapter 1 The Word of God was made flesh in the man Jesus and dwell among us.)
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
~~ The Final Judgement DAY for Satan, 1/3 fallen angels, the Woman/false bride and her children, false prophets on the earth
Rev. 20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Post by nathan on Aug 11, 2019 11:07:02 GMT -5
The New Jerusalem city, New heaven and earth God the Father and Christ our Lord God Savior have prepared for His Redeemers to live for eternity
Rev. 21-22 And I/John saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he/Jesus said unto me, It is done. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and ladymongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
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Post by nathan on Aug 11, 2019 15:49:03 GMT -5
1) Enuf wrote: You/Nathan quote a couple of people who have tried to bend the facts to suit their own agenda. You have not considered all the facts. The workers church which his board is about started with William Irvine around 1897. The workers do not claim any connection to the Waldensians. You have read not studied church history.
Jaenen did not claim that his writings were facts. Christianburg did not add anything new that disagrees with what we are saying. We know the Waldensians were there but had no connection with the workers church. The teachings were Catholic in their origin.
2) Matisse wrote: There is an art to floating possibilities while maintaining plausible deniability. Even if Jaenen makes no factual claims, he lays out a series of shimmering, floating dots that beg to be connected by those who yearn for those connections to exist. I haven't heard of any workers expressing disapproval of Jaenen's work. If it had been widely denounced by the workers, my mother would not possess a copy of the essay.~~ Nathan: Well, before Dr. Cornelius J. sent his book the Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship to the Printing Press... he sent out copies of his book to some overseers and senior workers to check it out to get their approval before he send it to the Printing Press! He got their approval and green light to print it.
Before Cornelius printing the book, I called on the phone and talked to him a few times about my finding on the Vaudois/Waldenses in 1898 from a historian professor at the University of Oregon was given lecture about them when my companion Jay W. and myself and others heard it also. It was astounding! And I sent the Pilgrim Church of Broadbent book to him.
In Cornelius book he has many interesting information on the Vaudois history, belief also. Before the acknowledgement page he wrote: To my wife, family, colleagues and friends whose understanding and support sustained me in this enterprise.
3) Enuf wrote: The Vaudois/Waldense has Nothing to do with the workers church or the Faith Mission from which they broke away from.
~~ Nathan wrote: ALL of You ex-2x2, workers and the friends, need to have some history lesson from Whathat, a fellow ex-2x2 on TMB. I believe Whathat hits the nail right on the head! This is what I have been trying to say for 25 years..... Cherie K. and MOST ex-2x2 and many 2x2s DO NOT Understand or believe it !! because they believe Cherie Telinng the Truth website is recording the WHOLE truth history of William Irvine.
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, wrote on the Truth Message Board.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder).... www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gif
Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness movement
Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)
I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
~~ Nathan: Jesus KNEW the kind of lifestyle the apostles were going to live as celibate lives. He wanted the men he sent forth as preachers of the gospel would be FREE from the cares of life and families ties so, they could dedicate their whole life to God to seek the lost sheep, lost coins and lost souls, showing love and care for the sheep and lambs of God.
According to the forums.catholic 1) This person/Thistle wrote: " It is speculation how many, if any of the Apostles were married apart from Peter. Despite your mistaken interpretation about Paul, we only know for sure that Peter was married. Also with regard to Peter we don’t even know if he was still married or a widower when Jesus called him because Scripture only mentions his mother in law but does not say anything about his wife or children."2) Abu wrote: It is certainly doubtful, and most probably untrue, that “many of the apostles were married.” From the beginning, continence was required for priest and bishop – priestly celibacy is an Apostolic norm.
Among the Apostles, only Saint Peter is known to have been married because his mother-in-law is mentioned in the Gospels, but no mention is made of his wife or children. Tradition tells us that he was a widower who was caring for his wife’s aged mother. Some of the others might have been married, but there is no indication of this and it is a clear that they left everything, including their families, to follow Christ.
St. Peter asked Our Lord, “What about us? We left all we had to follow you.” The Divine Master answered: “I tell you solemnly, there is no one who has left house, wife, brothers, parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not be given repayment many times over in this present time and, in the world to come, eternal life” (Lk 18:28-30, cf. Mt 19:27-30; Mk 10:20-21).
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Post by nathan on Aug 29, 2019 22:53:36 GMT -5
There are two paradise, one on earth and the other paradise in is heaven/Venus. The Garden of Eden, also called Paradise, is the biblical "garden of God" described in the Book of Genesis and the Book of Ezekiel.
The Garden of Eden is thus accepted by our Sages as a physical domain deep inside Inner Earth. There is an Inner Earth and the Garden of Eden is at the center of the Earth thousands of miles down, directly underneath the Cave of Makhpelah. The astounding proclamation is stated every so clearly in the Zohar and in other ancient sources. The existence of Inner Earth should come as a surprise to no one. Such knowledge has long been known in ancient cultures for thousands of years, even expanding across the oceans. Even the ancient Native American Hopis know of these places. Even in the realm of science there have been some famous names who embrace what has become known as the Hollow Earth theory. Such scientists include amongst others Sir Edmund Haley, famous for the comet named after his discovery Haley's comet.The existence of Inner or Hollow Earth is much more than a mere theological statement made by the Torah Sages. There have been numerous encounters between surface dwelling human beings and the numerous other types of life that inhabit the inner realms. Not all such encounters have been benign. Our Sages have outlined that Inner Earth is actually divided up in seven sections which in Hebrew are called the Sheva Artzot. These are enumerated in detail in the Zohar (Hashmetut 1, 254a; Hesed L'Avraham 2,4 and Emek HaMelekh, Sha'ar 21). While some modern so-called Rabbis want to describe the Sheva Artzot as all being land masses here on the surface of the Earth, those proclaiming this are doing so untruthfully. They are either not reading what our Sages have taught or they are lying about what our Sages have taught. The Garden of Eden is said to be only one of the many locations in Inner Earth. The Zohar teaches that it was here that Adam materialized on Earth; it was from the center-most domain (Eden) in Inner Earth that he was cast out; it was in other domains in Inner Earth that he lived and that Kayin and Abel were born. It is even stated that Adam left numerous other progeny throughout Inner Earth over the centuries of his life. The Zohar says that many who escaped the destruction of the Tower of Babel did so by relocating to Inner Earth. Inner Earth has long been said to be the domain of the fallen angels and the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis 6.
Inner Earth is said to also be the domain of many animals which we have long considered to be mythological, such as the unicorn, the phoenix, the minotaur, centaur and dragon (ref. Hesed L'Avraham 2:4). Inner Earth inhabitants are said to come in many different shapes and sizes, from what we would call giants, to the likes of what would call hobbits; indeed, there is even said to be a head of two headed human beings. All these things are proclaimed by our Sages to be physically real. There are many races of indigenous intelligent sentient entities living in Inner Earth. Many of these species know about us and many of them have interacted with us for a very long time. Some of these races are benign or even benevolent. Others on the other hand are nothing but trouble.
One of these troublesome races are referred to as the Nishaya, after the name of their domain. They are one of the “Shedim” (demons) spoken of by our Sages throughout the centuries. The Zohar and other literature describes their appearance as being frail, short, with a greyish skin-tone, no noses, just slits to breath/The GREYS. Allegedly they have no females of their species and thus seek our human females with which to procreate. Many might recognize the similarities between the Nishaya and modern day so-called extraterrestrials and so-called alien abductions. www.koshertorah.com/PDF/eden.pdf13 pieces of evidence supporting hollow earth
humansarefree.com/2015/09/13-pieces-of-evidence-supporting-hollow.html Names of 10 humans witnesses who entered the Inner/hollow earth since 1827 to 1990s.
ourhollowearth.com/ourhollo/index.html www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-hollow-earth-is-filled-with-giants-germans-and-a-little-sunDr. Stranges later wrote his other book, "My Friend From Beyond Earth," which I have had a copy of for many years. Valiant Thor also wrote a book that Dr. Stranges published called, "Outwitting Tomorrow." As recorded in these books, Valiant Thor told Dr. Stranges that his planet Venus is hollow like our Earth is hollow and that his people live INSIDE Venus. As you will also learn in this video, Valiant Thor told Dr. Stranges that all the planets in our solar system including Earth and Venus are hollow, and that people live in their interior worlds. In the 50's Howard Menger was taken to an alien base on the far side of the moon in a Venusian flying saucer craft, as he described in his book, The High Bridge Incident, The Story Behind the Story, and at that base he met people from all the planets in our solar system. NASA may not be able to see any people living on the surfaces of the other planets in our solar system, but we have the verbal and written testimony of Dr. Frank Stranges that he was told by a man from Venus named Valiant Thor, that all the planets are hollow and people live in their interiors. If you read Dr. Stranges books, you will learn that Val Thor told him that his people of Venus are Christians, and that they walk and talk daily with Jesus Christ, our creator.
Dr. Stranges' widow still maintains their website and continues to publish a newsletter with regular communications from Commander Valiant Thor of Venus. In Dr. Stranges book, "My Friend From Beyond Earth," Valiant Thor tells us that he is commander of a spaceship 7 miles long and 3 miles tall and is also head of the Council of the Twelve of the planet Venus. He came to Earth in a flying saucer craft he called, "Victor One" to try to bring us back in harmony with our creator.www.ourhollowearth.com/ourhollo/p3.html#June1-2016
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 2, 2019 12:55:03 GMT -5
This is what really happened as far as scientists can ascertain at this point in time. Formation and evolution of the Solar System From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to navigationJump to search Artist's conception of a protoplanetary disk The formation and evolution of the Solar System began 4.6 billion years ago with the gravitational collapse of a small part of a giant molecular cloud.[1] Most of the collapsing mass collected in the center, forming the Sun, while the rest flattened into a protoplanetary disk out of which the planets, moons, asteroids, and other small Solar System bodies formed. This model, known as the nebular hypothesis was first developed in the 18th century by Emanuel Swedenborg, Immanuel Kant, and Pierre-Simon Laplace. Its subsequent development has interwoven a variety of scientific disciplines including astronomy, physics, geology, and planetary science. Since the dawn of the space age in the 1950s and the discovery of extrasolar planets in the 1990s, the model has been both challenged and refined to account for new observations. The Solar System has evolved considerably since its initial formation. Many moons have formed from circling discs of gas and dust around their parent planets, while other moons are thought to have formed independently and later been captured by their planets. Still others, such as Earth's Moon, may be the result of giant collisions. Collisions between bodies have occurred continually up to the present day and have been central to the evolution of the Solar System. The positions of the planets might have shifted due to gravitational interactions.[2] This planetary migration is now thought to have been responsible for much of the Solar System's early evolution. In roughly 5 billion years, the Sun will cool and expand outward to many times its current diameter (becoming a red giant), before casting off its outer layers as a planetary nebula and leaving behind a stellar remnant known as a white dwarf. In the far distant future, the gravity of passing stars will gradually reduce the Sun's retinue of planets. Some planets will be destroyed, others ejected into interstellar space. Ultimately, over the course of tens of billions of years, it is likely that the Sun will be left with none of the original bodies in orbit around it.[3] Contents 1 History 2 Formation 2.1 Pre-solar nebula 2.2 Formation of the planets 3 Subsequent evolution 3.1 Terrestrial planets 3.2 Asteroid belt 3.3 Planetary migration 3.4 Late Heavy Bombardment and after 4 Moons 5 Future 5.1 Long-term stability 5.2 Moon–ring systems 5.3 The Sun and planetary environments 6 Galactic interaction 6.1 Galactic collision and planetary disruption 7 Chronology 7.1 Timeline of Solar System evolution 8 See also 9 Notes 10 References 11 Bibliography 12 External links History Main article: History of Solar System formation and evolution hypotheses Pierre-Simon Laplace, one of the originators of the nebular hypothesis Ideas concerning the origin and fate of the world date from the earliest known writings; however, for almost all of that time, there was no attempt to link such theories to the existence of a "Solar System", simply because it was not generally thought that the Solar System, in the sense we now understand it, existed. The first step toward a theory of Solar System formation and evolution was the general acceptance of heliocentrism, which placed the Sun at the centre of the system and the Earth in orbit around it. This concept had developed for millennia (Aristarchus of Samos had suggested it as early as 250 BC), but was not widely accepted until the end of the 17th century. The first recorded use of the term "Solar System" dates from 1704.[4] The current standard theory for Solar System formation, the nebular hypothesis, has fallen into and out of favour since its formulation by Emanuel Swedenborg, Immanuel Kant, and Pierre-Simon Laplace in the 18th century. The most significant criticism of the hypothesis was its apparent inability to explain the Sun's relative lack of angular momentum when compared to the planets.[5] However, since the early 1980s studies of young stars have shown them to be surrounded by cool discs of dust and gas, exactly as the nebular hypothesis predicts, which has led to its re-acceptance.[6] Understanding of how the Sun is expected to continue to evolve required an understanding of the source of its power. Arthur Stanley Eddington's confirmation of Albert Einstein's theory of relativity led to his realisation that the Sun's energy comes from nuclear fusion reactions in its core, fusing hydrogen into helium.[7] In 1935, Eddington went further and suggested that other elements also might form within stars.[8] Fred Hoyle elaborated on this premise by arguing that evolved stars called red giants created many elements heavier than hydrogen and helium in their cores. When a red giant finally casts off its outer layers, these elements would then be recycled to form other star systems.[8] Formation See also: Nebular hypothesis Pre-solar nebula The nebular hypothesis says that the Solar System formed from the gravitational collapse of a fragment of a giant molecular cloud.[9] The cloud was about 20 parsec (65 light years) across,[9] while the fragments were roughly 1 parsec (three and a quarter light-years) across.[10] The further collapse of the fragments led to the formation of dense cores 0.01–0.1 pc (2,000–20,000 AU) in size. [9][11] One of these collapsing fragments (known as the pre-solar nebula) formed what became the Solar System.[12] The composition of this region with a mass just over that of the Sun (M☉) was about the same as that of the Sun today, with hydrogen, along with helium and trace amounts of lithium produced by Big Bang nucleosynthesis, forming about 98% of its mass. The remaining 2% of the mass consisted of heavier elements that were created by nucleosynthesis in earlier generations of stars.[13] Late in the life of these stars, they ejected heavier elements into the interstellar medium.[14]
Hubble image of protoplanetary discs in the Orion Nebula, a light-years-wide "stellar nursery" probably very similar to the primordial nebula from which the Sun formed The oldest inclusions found in meteorites, thought to trace the first solid material to form in the pre-solar nebula, are 4568.2 million years old, which is one definition of the age of the Solar System.[1] Studies of ancient meteorites reveal traces of stable daughter nuclei of short-lived isotopes, such as iron-60, that only form in exploding, short-lived stars. This indicates that one or more supernovae occurred near the Sun while it was forming. A shock wave from a supernova may have triggered the formation of the Sun by creating relatively dense regions within the cloud, causing these regions to collapse.[15] Because only massive, short-lived stars produce supernovae, the Sun must have formed in a large star-forming region that produced massive stars, possibly similar to the Orion Nebula.[16][17] Studies of the structure of the Kuiper belt and of anomalous materials within it suggest that the Sun formed within a cluster of between 1,000 and 10,000 stars with a diameter of between 6.5 and 19.5 light years and a collective mass of 3,000 M☉. This cluster began to break apart between 135 million and 535 million years after formation.[18][19] Several simulations of our young Sun interacting with close-passing stars over the first 100 million years of its life produce anomalous orbits observed in the outer Solar System, such as detached objects.[20]
Because of the conservation of angular momentum, the nebula spun faster as it collapsed. As the material within the nebula condensed, the atoms within it began to collide with increasing frequency, converting their kinetic energy into heat. The centre, where most of the mass collected, became increasingly hotter than the surrounding disc.[10] Over about 100,000 years,[9] the competing forces of gravity, gas pressure, magnetic fields, and rotation caused the contracting nebula to flatten into a spinning protoplanetary disc with a diameter of about 200 AU[10] and form a hot, dense protostar (a star in which hydrogen fusion has not yet begun) at the centre.[21]
At this point in its evolution, the Sun is thought to have been a T Tauri star.[22] Studies of T Tauri stars show that they are often accompanied by discs of pre-planetary matter with masses of 0.001–0.1 M☉.[23] These discs extend to several hundred AU—the Hubble Space Telescope has observed protoplanetary discs of up to 1000 AU in diameter in star-forming regions such as the Orion Nebula[24]—and are rather cool, reaching a surface temperature of only about 1000 kelvins at their hottest.[25] Within 50 million years, the temperature and pressure at the core of the Sun became so great that its hydrogen began to fuse, creating an internal source of energy that countered gravitational contraction until hydrostatic equilibrium was achieved.[26] This marked the Sun's entry into the prime phase of its life, known as the main sequence. Main-sequence stars derive energy from the fusion of hydrogen into helium in their cores. The Sun remains a main-sequence star today.[27]
Formation of the planets See also: Protoplanetary disk The various planets are thought to have formed from the solar nebula, the disc-shaped cloud of gas and dust left over from the Sun's formation.[28] The currently accepted method by which the planets formed is accretion, in which the planets began as dust grains in orbit around the central protostar. Through direct contact, these grains formed into clumps up to 200 metres in diameter, which in turn collided to form larger bodies (planetesimals) of ~10 kilometres (km) in size.[29] These gradually increased through further collisions, growing at the rate of centimetres per year over the course of the next few million years.[29]
The inner Solar System, the region of the Solar System inside 4 AU, was too warm for volatile molecules like water and methane to condense, so the planetesimals that formed there could only form from compounds with high melting points, such as metals (like iron, nickel, and aluminium) and rocky silicates. These rocky bodies would become the terrestrial planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars). These compounds are quite rare in the Universe, comprising only 0.6% of the mass of the nebula, so the terrestrial planets could not grow very large.[10] The terrestrial embryos grew to about 0.05 Earth masses (M⊕) and ceased accumulating matter about 100,000 years after the formation of the Sun; subsequent collisions and mergers between these planet-sized bodies allowed terrestrial planets to grow to their present sizes (see Terrestrial planets below).[30]
When the terrestrial planets were forming, they remained immersed in a disk of gas and dust. The gas was partially supported by pressure and so did not orbit the Sun as rapidly as the planets. The resulting drag and, more importantly, gravitational interactions with the surrounding material caused a transfer of angular momentum, and as a result the planets gradually migrated to new orbits. Models show that density and temperature variations in the disk governed this rate of migration,[31][32] but the net trend was for the inner planets to migrate inward as the disk dissipated, leaving the planets in their current orbits.[33]
The giant planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune) formed further out, beyond the frost line, which is the point between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter where the material is cool enough for volatile icy compounds to remain solid. The ices that formed the Jovian planets were more abundant than the metals and silicates that formed the terrestrial planets, allowing the giant planets to grow massive enough to capture hydrogen and helium, the lightest and most abundant elements.[10] Planetesimals beyond the frost line accumulated up to 4 M⊕ within about 3 million years.[30] Today, the four giant planets comprise just under 99% of all the mass orbiting the Sun. Theorists believe it is no accident that Jupiter lies just beyond the frost line. Because the frost line accumulated large amounts of water via evaporation from infalling icy material, it created a region of lower pressure that increased the speed of orbiting dust particles and halted their motion toward the Sun. In effect, the frost line acted as a barrier that caused material to accumulate rapidly at ~5 AU from the Sun. This excess material coalesced into a large embryo (or core) on the order of 10 M⊕, which began to accumulate an envelope via accretion of gas from the surrounding disc at an ever-increasing rate.[34][35] Once the envelope mass became about equal to the solid core mass, growth proceeded very rapidly, reaching about 150 Earth masses ~105 years thereafter and finally topping out at 318 M⊕.[36] Saturn may owe its substantially lower mass simply to having formed a few million years after Jupiter, when there was less gas available to consume.[30][37]
T Tauri stars like the young Sun have far stronger stellar winds than more stable, older stars. Uranus and Neptune are thought to have formed after Jupiter and Saturn did, when the strong solar wind had blown away much of the disc material. As a result, those planets accumulated little hydrogen and helium—not more than 1 M⊕ each. Uranus and Neptune are sometimes referred to as failed cores.[38] The main problem with formation theories for these planets is the timescale of their formation. At the current locations it would have taken millions of years for their cores to accrete.[37] This means that Uranus and Neptune may have formed closer to the Sun—near or even between Jupiter and Saturn—and later migrated or were ejected outward (see Planetary migration below).[38][39] Motion in the planetesimal era was not all inward toward the Sun; the Stardust sample return from Comet Wild 2 has suggested that materials from the early formation of the Solar System migrated from the warmer inner Solar System to the region of the Kuiper belt.[40]
After between three and ten million years,[30] the young Sun's solar wind would have cleared away all the gas and dust in the protoplanetary disc, blowing it into interstellar space, thus ending the growth of the planets.[41][42]
Subsequent evolution The planets were originally thought to have formed in or near their current orbits. However, this has been questioned during the last 20 years. Currently, many planetary scientists think that the Solar System might have looked very different after its initial formation: several objects at least as massive as Mercury were present in the inner Solar System, the outer Solar System was much more compact than it is now, and the Kuiper belt was much closer to the Sun.[43]
Terrestrial planets At the end of the planetary formation epoch the inner Solar System was populated by 50–100 Moon- to Mars-sized planetary embryos.[44][45] Further growth was possible only because these bodies collided and merged, which took less than 100 million years. These objects would have gravitationally interacted with one another, tugging at each other's orbits until they collided, growing larger until the four terrestrial planets we know today took shape.[30] One such giant collision is thought to have formed the Moon (see Moons below), while another removed the outer envelope of the young Mercury.[46]
One unresolved issue with this model is that it cannot explain how the initial orbits of the proto-terrestrial planets, which would have needed to be highly eccentric to collide, produced the remarkably stable and nearly circular orbits they have today.[44] One hypothesis for this "eccentricity dumping" is that the terrestrials formed in a disc of gas still not expelled by the Sun. The "gravitational drag" of this residual gas would have eventually lowered the planets' energy, smoothing out their orbits.[45] However, such gas, if it existed, would have prevented the terrestrial planets' orbits from becoming so eccentric in the first place.[30] Another hypothesis is that gravitational drag occurred not between the planets and residual gas but between the planets and the remaining small bodies. As the large bodies moved through the crowd of smaller objects, the smaller objects, attracted by the larger planets' gravity, formed a region of higher density, a "gravitational wake", in the larger objects' path. As they did so, the increased gravity of the wake slowed the larger objects down into more regular orbits.[47]
Asteroid belt The outer edge of the terrestrial region, between 2 and 4 AU from the Sun, is called the asteroid belt. The asteroid belt initially contained more than enough matter to form 2–3 Earth-like planets, and, indeed, a large number of planetesimals formed there. As with the terrestrials, planetesimals in this region later coalesced and formed 20–30 Moon- to Mars-sized planetary embryos;[48] however, the proximity of Jupiter meant that after this planet formed, 3 million years after the Sun, the region's history changed dramatically.[44] Orbital resonances with Jupiter and Saturn are particularly strong in the asteroid belt, and gravitational interactions with more massive embryos scattered many planetesimals into those resonances. Jupiter's gravity increased the velocity of objects within these resonances, causing them to shatter upon collision with other bodies, rather than accrete.[49]
As Jupiter migrated inward following its formation (see Planetary migration below), resonances would have swept across the asteroid belt, dynamically exciting the region's population and increasing their velocities relative to each other.[50] The cumulative action of the resonances and the embryos either scattered the planetesimals away from the asteroid belt or excited their orbital inclinations and eccentricities.[48][51] Some of those massive embryos too were ejected by Jupiter, while others may have migrated to the inner Solar System and played a role in the final accretion of the terrestrial planets.[48][52][53] During this primary depletion period, the effects of the giant planets and planetary embryos left the asteroid belt with a total mass equivalent to less than 1% that of the Earth, composed mainly of small planetesimals.[51] This is still 10–20 times more than the current mass in the main belt, which is now about 0.0005 M⊕.[54] A secondary depletion period that brought the asteroid belt down close to its present mass is thought to have followed when Jupiter and Saturn entered a temporary 2:1 orbital resonance (see below).
The inner Solar System's period of giant impacts probably played a role in the Earth acquiring its current water content (~6×1021 kg) from the early asteroid belt. Water is too volatile to have been present at Earth's formation and must have been subsequently delivered from outer, colder parts of the Solar System.[55] The water was probably delivered by planetary embryos and small planetesimals thrown out of the asteroid belt by Jupiter.[52] A population of main-belt comets discovered in 2006 has been also suggested as a possible source for Earth's water.[55][56] In contrast, comets from the Kuiper belt or farther regions delivered not more than about 6% of Earth's water.[2][57] The panspermia hypothesis holds that life itself may have been deposited on Earth in this way, although this idea is not widely accepted.[58]
Planetary migration Main articles: Nice model and Grand tack hypothesis According to the nebular hypothesis, the outer two planets may be in the "wrong place". Uranus and Neptune (known as the "ice giants") exist in a region where the reduced density of the solar nebula and longer orbital times render their formation highly implausible.[59] The two are instead thought to have formed in orbits near Jupiter and Saturn, where more material was available, and to have migrated outward to their current positions over hundreds of millions of years.[38]
Simulation showing outer planets and Kuiper belt:[2] a) Before Jupiter/Saturn 2:1 resonance b) Scattering of Kuiper belt objects into the Solar System after the orbital shift of Neptune c) After ejection of Kuiper belt bodies by Jupiter Orbit of Jupiter Orbit of Saturn Orbit of Uranus Orbit of Neptune The migration of the outer planets is also necessary to account for the existence and properties of the Solar System's outermost regions.[39] Beyond Neptune, the Solar System continues into the Kuiper belt, the scattered disc, and the Oort cloud, three sparse populations of small icy bodies thought to be the points of origin for most observed comets. At their distance from the Sun, accretion was too slow to allow planets to form before the solar nebula dispersed, and thus the initial disc lacked enough mass density to consolidate into a planet.[59] The Kuiper belt lies between 30 and 55 AU from the Sun, while the farther scattered disc extends to over 100 AU,[39] and the distant Oort cloud begins at about 50,000 AU.[60] Originally, however, the Kuiper belt was much denser and closer to the Sun, with an outer edge at approximately 30 AU. Its inner edge would have been just beyond the orbits of Uranus and Neptune, which were in turn far closer to the Sun when they formed (most likely in the range of 15–20 AU), and in 50% of simulations ended up in opposite locations, with Uranus farther from the Sun than Neptune.[61][2][39]
According to the Nice model, after the formation of the Solar System, the orbits of all the giant planets continued to change slowly, influenced by their interaction with the large number of remaining planetesimals. After 500–600 million years (about 4 billion years ago) Jupiter and Saturn fell into a 2:1 resonance: Saturn orbited the Sun once for every two Jupiter orbits.[39] This resonance created a gravitational push against the outer planets, possibly causing Neptune to surge past Uranus and plough into the ancient Kuiper belt.[61] The planets scattered the majority of the small icy bodies inwards, while themselves moving outwards. These planetesimals then scattered off the next planet they encountered in a similar manner, moving the planets' orbits outwards while they moved inwards.[39] This process continued until the planetesimals interacted with Jupiter, whose immense gravity sent them into highly elliptical orbits or even ejected them outright from the Solar System. This caused Jupiter to move slightly inward.[c] Those objects scattered by Jupiter into highly elliptical orbits formed the Oort cloud;[39] those objects scattered to a lesser degree by the migrating Neptune formed the current Kuiper belt and scattered disc.[39] This scenario explains the Kuiper belt's and scattered disc's present low mass. Some of the scattered objects, including Pluto, became gravitationally tied to Neptune's orbit, forcing them into mean-motion resonances.[62] Eventually, friction within the planetesimal disc made the orbits of Uranus and Neptune circular again.[39][63]
In contrast to the outer planets, the inner planets are not thought to have migrated significantly over the age of the Solar System, because their orbits have remained stable following the period of giant impacts.[30]
Another question is why Mars came out so small compared with Earth. A study by Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, Texas, published June 6, 2011 (called the Grand tack hypothesis), proposes that Jupiter had migrated inward to 1.5 AU. After Saturn formed, migrated inward, and established the 2:3 mean motion resonance with Jupiter, the study assumes that both planets migrated back to their present positions. Jupiter thus would have consumed much of the material that would have created a bigger Mars. The same simulations also reproduce the characteristics of the modern asteroid belt, with dry asteroids and water-rich objects similar to comets.[64][65] However, it is unclear whether conditions in the solar nebula would have allowed Jupiter and Saturn to move back to their current positions, and according to current estimates this possibility appears unlikely.[66] Moreover, alternative explanations for the small mass of Mars exist.[67][68][69]
Late Heavy Bombardment and after Life timeline This box: viewtalkedit -4500 —–-4000 —–-3500 —–-3000 —–-2500 —–-2000 —–-1500 —–-1000 —–-500 —–0 — water Single-celled life photosynthesis Eukaryotes Multicellular life Arthropods Molluscs Plants Dinosaurs Mammals Flowers Birds Primates ←Earth (−4540)←Earliest water←Earliest life←Earliest oxygen←Atmospheric oxygen←Oxygen crisis←Sexual reproduction←Earliest plants←Ediacara biota←Cambrian explosion←Tetrapoda←Earliest apes P h a n e r o z o i c
P r o t e r o z o i c
A r c h e a n H a d e a n PongolaHuronianCryogenianAndeanKarooQuaternaryIce Ages (million years ago) The image above contains clickable links(See also: Human timeline, and Nature timeline.) Main article: Late Heavy Bombardment
Meteor Crater in Arizona. Created 50,000 years ago by an impactor about 50 metres (160 ft) across, it shows that the accretion of the Solar System is not over. Gravitational disruption from the outer planets' migration would have sent large numbers of asteroids into the inner Solar System, severely depleting the original belt until it reached today's extremely low mass.[51] This event may have triggered the Late Heavy Bombardment that occurred approximately 4 billion years ago, 500–600 million years after the formation of the Solar System.[2][70] This period of heavy bombardment lasted several hundred million years and is evident in the cratering still visible on geologically dead bodies of the inner Solar System such as the Moon and Mercury.[2][71] The oldest known evidence for life on Earth dates to 3.8 billion years ago—almost immediately after the end of the Late Heavy Bombardment.[72]
Impacts are thought to be a regular (if currently infrequent) part of the evolution of the Solar System. That they continue to happen is evidenced by the collision of Comet Shoemaker–Levy 9 with Jupiter in 1994, the 2009 Jupiter impact event, the Tunguska event, the Chelyabinsk meteor and the impact that created Meteor Crater in Arizona. The process of accretion, therefore, is not complete, and may still pose a threat to life on Earth.[73][74]
Over the course of the Solar System's evolution, comets were ejected out of the inner Solar System by the gravity of the giant planets, and sent thousands of AU outward to form the Oort cloud, a spherical outer swarm of cometary nuclei at the farthest extent of the Sun's gravitational pull. Eventually, after about 800 million years, the gravitational disruption caused by galactic tides, passing stars and giant molecular clouds began to deplete the cloud, sending comets into the inner Solar System.[75] The evolution of the outer Solar System also appears to have been influenced by space weathering from the solar wind, micrometeorites, and the neutral components of the interstellar medium.[76]
The evolution of the asteroid belt after Late Heavy Bombardment was mainly governed by collisions.[77] Objects with large mass have enough gravity to retain any material ejected by a violent collision. In the asteroid belt this usually is not the case. As a result, many larger objects have been broken apart, and sometimes newer objects have been forged from the remnants in less violent collisions.[77] Moons around some asteroids currently can only be explained as consolidations of material flung away from the parent object without enough energy to entirely escape its gravity.[78]
Moons See also: Giant-impact hypothesis
Artist's conception of the giant impact thought to have formed the Moon Moons have come to exist around most planets and many other Solar System bodies. These natural satellites originated by one of three possible mechanisms:
Co-formation from a circumplanetary disc (only in the cases of the giant planets); Formation from impact debris (given a large enough impact at a shallow angle); and Capture of a passing object. Jupiter and Saturn have several large moons, such as Io, Europa, Ganymede and Titan, which may have originated from discs around each giant planet in much the same way that the planets formed from the disc around the Sun.[79][80][81] This origin is indicated by the large sizes of the moons and their proximity to the planet. These attributes are impossible to achieve via capture, while the gaseous nature of the primaries also make formation from collision debris unlikely. The outer moons of the giant planets tend to be small and have eccentric orbits with arbitrary inclinations. These are the characteristics expected of captured bodies.[82][83] Most such moons orbit in the direction opposite the rotation of their primary. The largest irregular moon is Neptune's moon Triton, which is thought to be a captured Kuiper belt object.[74]
Moons of solid Solar System bodies have been created by both collisions and capture. Mars's two small moons, Deimos and Phobos, are thought to be captured asteroids.[84] The Earth's Moon is thought to have formed as a result of a single, large head-on collision.[85][86] The impacting object probably had a mass comparable to that of Mars, and the impact probably occurred near the end of the period of giant impacts. The collision kicked into orbit some of the impactor's mantle, which then coalesced into the Moon.[85] The impact was probably the last in the series of mergers that formed the Earth. It has been further hypothesized that the Mars-sized object may have formed at one of the stable Earth–Sun Lagrangian points (either L4 or L5) and drifted from its position.[87] The moons of trans-Neptunian objects Pluto (Charon) and Orcus (Vanth) may also have formed by means of a large collision: the Pluto–Charon, Orcus–Vanth and Earth–Moon systems are unusual in the Solar System in that the satellite's mass is at least 1% that of the larger body.[88][89]
Future Astronomers estimate that the current state of the Solar System will not change drastically until the Sun has fused almost all the hydrogen fuel in its core into helium, beginning its evolution from the main sequence of the Hertzsprung–Russell diagram and into its red-giant phase. The Solar System will continue to evolve until then.
Long-term stability The Solar System is chaotic over million- and billion-year timescales,[90] with the orbits of the planets open to long-term variations. One notable example of this chaos is the Neptune–Pluto system, which lies in a 3:2 orbital resonance. Although the resonance itself will remain stable, it becomes impossible to predict the position of Pluto with any degree of accuracy more than 10–20 million years (the Lyapunov time) into the future.[91] Another example is Earth's axial tilt, which, due to friction raised within Earth's mantle by tidal interactions with the Moon (see below), is incomputable from some point between 1.5 and 4.5 billion years from now.[92]
The outer planets' orbits are chaotic over longer timescales, with a Lyapunov time in the range of 2–230 million years.[93] In all cases this means that the position of a planet along its orbit ultimately becomes impossible to predict with any certainty (so, for example, the timing of winter and summer become uncertain), but in some cases the orbits themselves may change dramatically. Such chaos manifests most strongly as changes in eccentricity, with some planets' orbits becoming significantly more—or less—elliptical.[94]
Ultimately, the Solar System is stable in that none of the planets are likely to collide with each other or be ejected from the system in the next few billion years.[93] Beyond this, within five billion years or so Mars's eccentricity may grow to around 0.2, such that it lies on an Earth-crossing orbit, leading to a potential collision. In the same timescale, Mercury's eccentricity may grow even further, and a close encounter with Venus could theoretically eject it from the Solar System altogether[90] or send it on a collision course with Venus or Earth.[95] This could happen within a billion years, according to numerical simulations in which Mercury's orbit is perturbed.[96]
Moon–ring systems The evolution of moon systems is driven by tidal forces. A moon will raise a tidal bulge in the object it orbits (the primary) due to the differential gravitational force across diameter of the primary. If a moon is revolving in the same direction as the planet's rotation and the planet is rotating faster than the orbital period of the moon, the bulge will constantly be pulled ahead of the moon. In this situation, angular momentum is transferred from the rotation of the primary to the revolution of the satellite. The moon gains energy and gradually spirals outward, while the primary rotates more slowly over time.
The Earth and its Moon are one example of this configuration. Today, the Moon is tidally locked to the Earth; one of its revolutions around the Earth (currently about 29 days) is equal to one of its rotations about its axis, so it always shows one face to the Earth. The Moon will continue to recede from Earth, and Earth's spin will continue to slow gradually. Other examples are the Galilean moons of Jupiter (as well as many of Jupiter's smaller moons)[97] and most of the larger moons of Saturn.[98]
Neptune and its moon Triton, taken by Voyager 2. Triton's orbit will eventually take it within Neptune's Roche limit, tearing it apart and possibly forming a new ring system. A different scenario occurs when the moon is either revolving around the primary faster than the primary rotates, or is revolving in the direction opposite the planet's rotation. In these cases, the tidal bulge lags behind the moon in its orbit. In the former case, the direction of angular momentum transfer is reversed, so the rotation of the primary speeds up while the satellite's orbit shrinks. In the latter case, the angular momentum of the rotation and revolution have opposite signs, so transfer leads to decreases in the magnitude of each (that cancel each other out).[d] In both cases, tidal deceleration causes the moon to spiral in towards the primary until it either is torn apart by tidal stresses, potentially creating a planetary ring system, or crashes into the planet's surface or atmosphere. Such a fate awaits the moons Phobos of Mars (within 30 to 50 million years),[99] Triton of Neptune (in 3.6 billion years),[100] and at least 16 small satellites of Uranus and Neptune. Uranus's Desdemona may even collide with one of its neighboring moons.[101]
A third possibility is where the primary and moon are tidally locked to each other. In that case, the tidal bulge stays directly under the moon, there is no transfer of angular momentum, and the orbital period will not change. Pluto and Charon are an example of this type of configuration.[102]
There is no consensus as to the mechanism of formation of the rings of Saturn. Although theoretical models indicated that the rings were likely to have formed early in the Solar System's history,[103] data from the Cassini–Huygens spacecraft suggests they formed relatively late.[104]
The Sun and planetary environments See also: Stellar evolution and Future of Earth In the long term, the greatest changes in the Solar System will come from changes in the Sun itself as it ages. As the Sun burns through its supply of hydrogen fuel, it gets hotter and burns the remaining fuel even faster. As a result, the Sun is growing brighter at a rate of ten percent every 1.1 billion years.[105] In about 600 million years, the Sun brightness will have disrupted the Carbon Cycle to the point that trees and forests (C3 photosynthetic plant life) will no longer be able to survive and in around 800 million years, the Sun will have killed all complex life on the Earth's surface and in the oceans. In 1.1 billion years' time, the Sun's increased radiation output will cause its circumstellar habitable zone to move outwards, making the Earth's surface too hot for liquid water to exist there naturally. At this point, all life will be reduced to single celled organisms.[106] Evaporation of water, a potent greenhouse gas, from the oceans' surface could accelerate temperature increase, potentially ending all life on Earth even sooner.[107] During this time, it is possible that as Mars's surface temperature gradually rises, carbon dioxide and water currently frozen under the surface regolith will release into the atmosphere, creating a greenhouse effect that will heat the planet until it achieves conditions parallel to Earth today, providing a potential future abode for life.[108] By 3.5 billion years from now, Earth's surface conditions will be similar to those of Venus today.[105]
Relative size of the Sun as it is now (inset) compared to its estimated future size as a red giant Around 5.4 billion years from now, the core of the Sun will become hot enough to trigger hydrogen fusion in its surrounding shell.[106] This will cause the outer layers of the star to expand greatly, and the star will enter a phase of its life in which it is called a red giant.[109][110] Within 7.5 billion years, the Sun will have expanded to a radius of 1.2 AU—256 times its current size. At the tip of the red giant branch, as a result of the vastly increased surface area, the Sun's surface will be much cooler (about 2600 K) than now and its luminosity much higher—up to 2,700 current solar luminosities. For part of its red giant life, the Sun will have a strong stellar wind that will carry away around 33% of its mass.[106][111][112] During these times, it is possible that Saturn's moon Titan could achieve surface temperatures necessary to support life.[113][114]
As the Sun expands, it will swallow the planets Mercury and Venus.[115] Earth's fate is less clear; although the Sun will envelop Earth's current orbit, the star's loss of mass (and thus weaker gravity) will cause the planets' orbits to move farther out.[106] If it were only for this, Venus and Earth would probably escape incineration,[111] but a 2008 study suggests that Earth will likely be swallowed up as a result of tidal interactions with the Sun's weakly bound outer envelope.[106]
Gradually, the hydrogen burning in the shell around the solar core will increase the mass of the core until it reaches about 45% of the present solar mass. At this point the density and temperature will become so high that the fusion of helium into carbon will begin, leading to a helium flash; the Sun will shrink from around 250 to 11 times its present (main-sequence) radius. Consequently, its luminosity will decrease from around 3,000 to 54 times its current level, and its surface temperature will increase to about 4770 K. The Sun will become a horizontal giant, burning helium in its core in a stable fashion much like it burns hydrogen today. The helium-fusing stage will last only 100 million years. Eventually, it will have to again resort to the reserves of hydrogen and helium in its outer layers and will expand a second time, turning into what is known as an asymptotic giant. Here the luminosity of the Sun will increase again, reaching about 2,090 present luminosities, and it will cool to about 3500 K.[106] This phase lasts about 30 million years, after which, over the course of a further 100,000 years, the Sun's remaining outer layers will fall away, ejecting a vast stream of matter into space and forming a halo known (misleadingly) as a planetary nebula. The ejected material will contain the helium and carbon produced by the Sun's nuclear reactions, continuing the enrichment of the interstellar medium with heavy elements for future generations of stars.[116]
The Ring nebula, a planetary nebula similar to what the Sun will become This is a relatively peaceful event, nothing akin to a supernova, which the Sun is too small to undergo as part of its evolution. Any observer present to witness this occurrence would see a massive increase in the speed of the solar wind, but not enough to destroy a planet completely. However, the star's loss of mass could send the orbits of the surviving planets into chaos, causing some to collide, others to be ejected from the Solar System, and still others to be torn apart by tidal interactions.[117] Afterwards, all that will remain of the Sun is a white dwarf, an extraordinarily dense object, 54% its original mass but only the size of the Earth. Initially, this white dwarf may be 100 times as luminous as the Sun is now. It will consist entirely of degenerate carbon and oxygen, but will never reach temperatures hot enough to fuse these elements. Thus the white dwarf Sun will gradually cool, growing dimmer and dimmer.[118]
As the Sun dies, its gravitational pull on the orbiting bodies such as planets, comets and asteroids will weaken due to its mass loss. All remaining planets' orbits will expand; if Venus, Earth, and Mars still exist, their orbits will lie roughly at 1.4 AU (210,000,000 km), 1.9 AU (280,000,000 km), and 2.8 AU (420,000,000 km). They and the other remaining planets will become dark, frigid hulks, completely devoid of any form of life.[111] They will continue to orbit their star, their speed slowed due to their increased distance from the Sun and the Sun's reduced gravity. Two billion years later, when the Sun has cooled to the 6000–8000K range, the carbon and oxygen in the Sun's core will freeze, with over 90% of its remaining mass assuming a crystalline structure.[119] Eventually, after roughly 1 quadrillion years, the Sun will finally cease to shine altogether, becoming a black dwarf.[120]
Galactic interaction
Location of the Solar System within the Milky Way The Solar System travels alone through the Milky Way in a circular orbit approximately 30,000 light years from the Galactic Centre. Its speed is about 220 km/s. The period required for the Solar System to complete one revolution around the Galactic Centre, the galactic year, is in the range of 220–250 million years. Since its formation, the Solar System has completed at least 20 such revolutions.[121]
Various scientists have speculated that the Solar System's path through the galaxy is a factor in the periodicity of mass extinctions observed in the Earth's fossil record. One hypothesis supposes that vertical oscillations made by the Sun as it orbits the Galactic Centre cause it to regularly pass through the galactic plane. When the Sun's orbit takes it outside the galactic disc, the influence of the galactic tide is weaker; as it re-enters the galactic disc, as it does every 20–25 million years, it comes under the influence of the far stronger "disc tides", which, according to mathematical models, increase the flux of Oort cloud comets into the Solar System by a factor of 4, leading to a massive increase in the likelihood of a devastating impact.[122]
However, others argue that the Sun is currently close to the galactic plane, and yet the last great extinction event was 15 million years ago. Therefore, the Sun's vertical position cannot alone explain such periodic extinctions, and that extinctions instead occur when the Sun passes through the galaxy's spiral arms. Spiral arms are home not only to larger numbers of molecular clouds, whose gravity may distort the Oort cloud, but also to higher concentrations of bright blue giants, which live for relatively short periods and then explode violently as supernovae.[123]
Galactic collision and planetary disruption Main article: Andromeda–Milky Way collision Although the vast majority of galaxies in the Universe are moving away from the Milky Way, the Andromeda Galaxy, the largest member of the Local Group of galaxies, is heading toward it at about 120 km/s.[124] In 4 billion years, Andromeda and the Milky Way will collide, causing both to deform as tidal forces distort their outer arms into vast tidal tails. If this initial disruption occurs, astronomers calculate a 12% chance that the Solar System will be pulled outward into the Milky Way's tidal tail and a 3% chance that it will become gravitationally bound to Andromeda and thus a part of that galaxy.[124] After a further series of glancing blows, during which the likelihood of the Solar System's ejection rises to 30%,[125] the galaxies' supermassive black holes will merge. Eventually, in roughly 6 billion years, the Milky Way and Andromeda will complete their merger into a giant elliptical galaxy. During the merger, if there is enough gas, the increased gravity will force the gas to the centre of the forming elliptical galaxy. This may lead to a short period of intensive star formation called a starburst.[124] In addition, the infalling gas will feed the newly formed black hole, transforming it into an active galactic nucleus. The force of these interactions will likely push the Solar System into the new galaxy's outer halo, leaving it relatively unscathed by the radiation from these collisions.[124][125]
It is a common misconception that this collision will disrupt the orbits of the planets in the Solar System. Although it is true that the gravity of passing stars can detach planets into interstellar space, distances between stars are so great that the likelihood of the Milky Way–Andromeda collision causing such disruption to any individual star system is negligible. Although the Solar System as a whole could be affected by these events, the Sun and planets are not expected to be disturbed.[126]
However, over time, the cumulative probability of a chance encounter with a star increases, and disruption of the planets becomes all but inevitable. Assuming that the Big Crunch or Big Rip scenarios for the end of the Universe do not occur, calculations suggest that the gravity of passing stars will have completely stripped the dead Sun of its remaining planets within 1 quadrillion (1015) years. This point marks the end of the Solar System. Although the Sun and planets may survive, the Solar System, in any meaningful sense, will cease to exist.[3]
Chronology Projected timeline of the Sun's life. From Formation To 14Gy The time frame of the Solar System's formation has been determined using radiometric dating. Scientists estimate that the Solar System is 4.6 billion years old. The oldest known mineral grains on Earth are approximately 4.4 billion years old.[127] Rocks this old are rare, as Earth's surface is constantly being reshaped by erosion, volcanism, and plate tectonics. To estimate the age of the Solar System, scientists use meteorites, which were formed during the early condensation of the solar nebula. Almost all meteorites (see the Canyon Diablo meteorite) are found to have an age of 4.6 billion years, suggesting that the Solar System must be at least this old.[128]
Studies of discs around other stars have also done much to establish a time frame for Solar System formation. Stars between one and three million years old have discs rich in gas, whereas discs around stars more than 10 million years old have little to no gas, suggesting that giant planets within them have ceased forming.[30]
Timeline of Solar System evolution External Timeline A graphical timeline is available at Graphical timeline of Earth and Sun Note: All dates and times in this chronology are approximate and should be taken as an order of magnitude indicator only.
Chronology of the formation and evolution of the Solar System Phase Time since formation of the Sun Time from present (approximate) Event Pre-Solar System Billions of years before the formation of the Solar System Over 4.6 billion years ago (bya) Previous generations of stars live and die, injecting heavy elements into the interstellar medium out of which the Solar System formed.[14] ~ 50 million years before formation of the Solar System 4.6 bya If the Solar System formed in an Orion nebula-like star-forming region, the most massive stars are formed, live their lives, die, and explode in supernova. One particular supernova, called the primal supernova, possibly triggers the formation of the Solar System.[16][17] Formation of Sun 0–100,000 years 4.6 bya Pre-solar nebula forms and begins to collapse. Sun begins to form.[30] 100,000 – 50 million years 4.6 bya Sun is a T Tauri protostar.[9] 100,000 – 10 million years 4.6 bya By 10 million years, gas in the protoplanetary disc has been blown away, and outer planet formation is likely complete.[30] 10 million – 100 million years 4.5–4.6 bya Terrestrial planets and the Moon form. Giant impacts occur. Water delivered to Earth.[2] Main sequence 50 million years 4.5 bya Sun becomes a main-sequence star.[26] 200 million years 4.4 bya Oldest known rocks on the Earth formed.[127][129] 500 million – 600 million years 4.0–4.1 bya Resonance in Jupiter and Saturn's orbits moves Neptune out into the Kuiper belt. Late Heavy Bombardment occurs in the inner Solar System.[2] 800 million years 3.8 bya Oldest known life on Earth.[72][129] Oort cloud reaches maximum mass.[75] 4.6 billion years Today Sun remains a main-sequence star.[105] 6 billion years 1.4 billion years in the future Sun's habitable zone moves outside of the Earth's orbit, possibly shifting onto Mars's orbit.[108] 7 billion years 2.4 billion years in the future The Milky Way and Andromeda Galaxy begin to collide. Slight chance the Solar System could be captured by Andromeda before the two galaxies fuse completely.[124] Post–main sequence 10 billion – 12 billion years 5–7 billion years in the future Sun has fused all of the hydrogen in the core and starts to burn hydrogen in a shell surrounding its core, thus ending its main sequence life. Sun begins to ascend the red giant branch of the Hertzsprung–Russell diagram, growing dramatically more luminous (by a factor of up to 2,700), larger (by a factor of up to 250 in radius), and cooler (down to 2600 K): Sun is now a red giant. Mercury, Venus and possibly Earth are swallowed.[106][111] During this time Saturn's moon Titan may become habitable.[113] ~ 12 billion years ~ 7 billion years in the future Sun passes through helium-burning horizontal-branch and asymptotic-giant-branch phases, losing a total of ~30% of its mass in all post-main-sequence phases. The asymptotic-giant-branch phase ends with the ejection of its outer layers as a planetary nebula, leaving the dense core of the Sun behind as a white dwarf.[106][116] Remnant Sun ~ 1 quadrillion years (1015 years) ~ 1 quadrillion years in the future Sun cools to 5 K.[130] Gravity of passing stars detaches planets from orbits. Solar System ceases to exist.[3] This template contains clickable linksClickableLocation of the Earth in the Universe(view • discuss)
Earth
Solar System
Gould Belt
Orion Arm
Milky Way
Local Group
Virgo SCl
Laniakea SCl
Our Universe See also icon Book: Solar System Accretion – The accumulation of particles into a massive object by gravitationally attracting more matter Age of the Earth – Scientific dating of the age of the Earth Big Bang – The prevailing cosmological model for the observable universe Chronology of the universe – Events since the Big Bang, 13.8 billion years ago Circumplanetary disk – moon-forming accumulation of particles around a planet Cosmology – the scientific study of the origin, evolution, and eventual fate of the universe Galaxy formation and evolution – The processes that formed a heterogeneous universe from a homogeneous beginning, the formation of the first galaxies, the way galaxies change over time History of Earth – The development of planet Earth from its formation to the present day Scale height Space and survival Stellar evolution – Changes to a star over its lifespan Structure formation – The formation of galaxies, galaxy clusters and larger structures from small early density fluctuations Tidal locking Timeline of the far future – Scientific projections regarding the far future
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Post by nathan on Sept 2, 2019 19:27:25 GMT -5
Has any of these so-called scientists entered the Hollow/inner earth, Hollow/inner Planet of Venus or the Hollow/inner moon, yet? ALL they KNOW what is on the surface of the earth and outer space ONLY, right?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 3, 2019 0:59:57 GMT -5
Has any of these so-called scientists entered the Hollow/inner earth, Hollow/inner Planet of Venus or the Hollow/inner moon, yet? ALL they KNOW what is on the surface of the earth and outer space ONLY, right? I have been further into the earth whilst caving, than any of your weirdo mates. Other than caves there is no hollow earth so no reputable scientist will even give your theories a second look. Tests done on density of the earth are one evidence that it is not hollow. The other evidence is how planets were formed. So your comment is as nonsensical as the rest of the lies you keep publishing.
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Post by nathan on Sept 3, 2019 7:58:37 GMT -5
Has any of these so-called scientists entered the Hollow/inner earth, Hollow/inner Planet of Venus or the Hollow/inner moon, yet? ALL they KNOW what is on the surface of the earth and outer space ONLY, right? I have been further into the earth whilst caving, than any of your weirdo mates. Other than caves there is no hollow earth so no reputable scientist will even give your theories a second look. Tests done on density of the earth are one evidence that it is not hollow. The other evidence is how planets were formed. So your comment is as nonsensical as the rest of the lies you keep publishing. You are such a doubting Thomas! Have you been to 800 miles deep below the surface? If you and your scientists haven't been down that deep, how in the world do you know the inner earth is hollow? You and them are guessing! and don't KNOW what is below 800 miles deep. Here is an Air Force Col. Billy Woodward who worked at the Area51, went down the inner/hollow earth 6 TIMES! your scientists better listen to him.
By the way, there are many others who entered the inner/hollow earth also.
In that period of service 1980-1992 I visited the Hollow Interior of the Earth six times, 800 miles deep. Upon my arrival to Area 51, I was indoctrinated to the existence of tunnels beneath Area 51, and soon after I met several of the Underground Shuttle Operators that have a stature of 13 to 14 feet in height.
www.thenewearth.org/InnerEarth.html
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 3, 2019 12:49:25 GMT -5
I have been further into the earth whilst caving, than any of your weirdo mates. Other than caves there is no hollow earth so no reputable scientist will even give your theories a second look. Tests done on density of the earth are one evidence that it is not hollow. The other evidence is how planets were formed. So your comment is as nonsensical as the rest of the lies you keep publishing. You are such a doubting Thomas! Have you been to 800 miles deep below the surface? If you and your scientists haven't been down that deep, how in the world do you know the inner earth is hollow? You and them are guessing! and don't KNOW what is below 800 miles deep. Here is an Air Force Col. Billy Woodward who worked at the Area51, went down the inner/hollow earth 6 TIMES! your scientists better listen to him.
By the way, there are many others who entered the inner/hollow earth also.
In that period of service 1980-1992 I visited the Hollow Interior of the Earth six times, 800 miles deep. Upon my arrival to Area 51, I was indoctrinated to the existence of tunnels beneath Area 51, and soon after I met several of the Underground Shuttle Operators that have a stature of 13 to 14 feet in height.
www.thenewearth.org/InnerEarth.html
Pinnochio, you can repeat those lies all you like. That will not make them true. It is a physical impossibility for their to be a hollow planet. Do some legitimate study and get your hand off your youtube.
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Post by snow on Sept 3, 2019 18:07:38 GMT -5
Has any of these so-called scientists entered the Hollow/inner earth, Hollow/inner Planet of Venus or the Hollow/inner moon, yet? ALL they KNOW what is on the surface of the earth and outer space ONLY, right? Nathan none entered the hollow earth because it isn't hollow and there is no way to enter the core of a planet. You are being lied to. Do the science, understand it and then make an informed decision. Just don't blindly believe people who don't have a clue.
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Post by nathan on Sept 3, 2019 18:31:09 GMT -5
Has any of these so-called scientists entered the Hollow/inner earth, Hollow/inner Planet of Venus or the Hollow/inner moon, yet? ALL they KNOW what is on the surface of the earth and outer space ONLY, right? Nathan none entered the hollow earth because it isn't hollow and there is no way to enter the core of a planet. You are being lied to. Do the science, understand it and then make an informed decision. Just don't blindly believe people who don't have a clue. ** I posted in the past of 12 entrances around the world where the humans can enter the inner earth. The inner earth is NOT as solid with a inner core like we have been taught in schools. There is central sun which gives heat and light for the inner dwellers. God and Christ the Almighty God as Creators of zillions planets in each galaxy a planet within the planets so the humans, intelligence beings through out the trillions galaxies can live on the surface or inner part.
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Post by snow on Sept 3, 2019 19:11:41 GMT -5
Nathan none entered the hollow earth because it isn't hollow and there is no way to enter the core of a planet. You are being lied to. Do the science, understand it and then make an informed decision. Just don't blindly believe people who don't have a clue. ** I posted in the past of 12 entrances around the world where the humans can enter the inner earth. The inner earth is NOT as solid with a inner core like we have been taught in schools. There is central sun which gives heat and light for the inner dwellers. God and Christ the Almighty God as Creators of zillions planets in each galaxy a planet within the planets so the humans, intelligence beings through out the trillions galaxies can live on the surface or inner part. Nathan do you even understand what a sun is? How would a sun even get into the center of a planet? It's all completely impossible. Why would you think that what we are taught in schools is wrong and Stranges might be right? What would be the point of lying about what the planets are made from and how they formed? We have equipment that measures the density of the earth. We know that the planet is not hollow. Tell me how the planets were formed and how suns got inside them. If you don't know that, how can you make an informed decision about whether or not Stranges is right?
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