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Post by BobWilliston on May 30, 2017 21:35:50 GMT -5
1. Why does a church like the F&W need so much accumulated wealth (apart from conventions, there are no properties to upkeep)? My personal opinion is that the cost in time and complicated finances of could be efficiently and comfortable be handled in publically available convention facilities. The traditional pattern of conventions seems to have come about for their desire for sheltered, private facilities away from civilization if possible. And that was for the lay people, not the ministry. Paul, by the way, made his own living as a tentmaker.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 3, 2017 0:39:56 GMT -5
What particularly interests me is the situation in the UK and the Republic of Ireland. Because here, nothing seems to be registered, and the "friends" seem to be unaware of the large bank accounts, high council meetings in expensive tax havens (Luxembourg and most recently Geneva), etc. I can well imagine that the 2x2s might be evading Irish capital gains tax. If so, they will have a system in place for hiding that (money laundering) and then once you've got that system, unscrupulous elders can send money obtained by illegal means through that system, currying favour with the overseers. Yes, this is speculation, but I've seen enough coincidences personally now to think it's time for them to come clean if they're not up to money laundering. If they don't, it's only a matter of time before leaked information fully exposes them. We've already had the Fonseca leak. In theory, purchases of property or land are all above-board and traceable. In practice, not. Purchasing land or property with cash is a common way of "placing" illegal money into the financial system. The purchase of course does not need to be official. The original owner of the land might then oddly decide to make a gift of his or her land to some trust or individual. Years may even pass between the black economy "purchase" and the donation. In terms of the amount of laundered money passing through a country, the UK is actually among the most corrupt in the entire world. The major new 2x2 convention facility in England/Wales was purchased by wealthy professing folk in Northern Ireland. As 2x2 numbers decline in the UK I'm sure professing folk like this have a large amount of influence as they effectively bankroll the ministry there. We have travelled to the UK many times over the years and while we have had many great times with some professing folk there, it's hard to describe how conservative things are there compared to dowunder. One time we went to a gospel meeting and we noticed three things in particular: - everything and everybody were soooo quiet - everyone dressed very plainly - there didn't seem to be much colour at all - after meeting we stayed and talked with junior worker that we knew for like 5 minutes. We couldn't work out why the older lady worker was trying to hurry us up. When we went outside our car was the only car parked apart from the car that was waiting to take them. Everyone had gone immediately - no one stayed back to catch up and chat Fellowship meetings were also super quiet. Back then I didn't expect to see TV in a home but I expected to see a radio or something on the bench. But nothing. It would not surprise me if very few younger people professed because it seemed very conservative. Just a few musings. Someone pointed out to me the other day that the workers don't work and the friends are not friendly. Quite apt in most cases.
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Post by kenco69 on Jun 3, 2017 13:02:41 GMT -5
My understanding when I was acquainted with the 2X2's was that a Company / Sole Trader / Companies were registered. These had monies lodged to them and withdrawals made. Receipts were kept for any money spent (Flights / Preps / Fuel - all travel and other expenses) and these were given to an accountant. There are many accountants among the friends, some elite, also wasn't David Delaney an account / auditor This was in the Republic of Ireland back in my day so things may have changed down the years.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 3, 2017 15:17:52 GMT -5
I think that sounds about right. If you're working as a sole trader (like myself) your accounts are not public, and you can do what you like with what is actually your own money (even if it's really not!). A number of limited companies have strong 2x2 associations, but if you look at the public accounts of them, they never tell you much. Doubtless the 2x2s keep accounts for their own purposes, but since these companies and accounts seem to always be in the names of elders, really overseers and workers are going to have a lot of trouble knowing whether or when an elder is creaming cash off the top.
An actual strict set of accounts would be a liability for the 2x2s, since if official bodies ever got hold of it, it may clearly demonstrate that a hierarchy and organisation exists. Then the top brass could be held accountable for child abuse or financial abuse that occurs among their de facto employees, the workers.
It appears as though the 2x2s have an intricate system of companies and private accounts, often offshore. A man has been named to me as Ben Crompton's accountant -- let's call him MP. But of course Delaney is now effectively second in command in the UK by the looks of it, apparently having replaced Percy Watkins. MP, last time I checked, lived or used to live in a house valued at half a million UK pounds. Mr. Crompton gave MP's address as his c/o address on at least one occasion.
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Post by Gene on Jun 3, 2017 19:30:33 GMT -5
The major new 2x2 convention facility in England/Wales was purchased by wealthy professing folk in Northern Ireland. As 2x2 numbers decline in the UK I'm sure professing folk like this have a large amount of influence as they effectively bankroll the ministry there. We have travelled to the UK many times over the years and while we have had many great times with some professing folk there, it's hard to describe how conservative things are there compared to dowunder. One time we went to a gospel meeting and we noticed three things in particular: - everything and everybody were soooo quiet - everyone dressed very plainly - there didn't seem to be much colour at all - after meeting we stayed and talked with junior worker that we knew for like 5 minutes. We couldn't work out why the older lady worker was trying to hurry us up. When we went outside our car was the only car parked apart from the car that was waiting to take them. Everyone had gone immediately - no one stayed back to catch up and chat Fellowship meetings were also super quiet. Back then I didn't expect to see TV in a home but I expected to see a radio or something on the bench. But nothing. It would not surprise me if very few younger people professed because it seemed very conservative. Just a few musings. Someone pointed out to me the other day that the workers don't work and the friends are not friendly. Quite apt in most cases. In my experience, my companions (and I) worked very hard -- although maybe the validity of that assertion depends upon one's definition of work. And I found (and still find) the friends to be quite friendly -- of course, with some exceptions.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 3, 2017 23:44:47 GMT -5
Someone pointed out to me the other day that the workers don't work and the friends are not friendly. Quite apt in most cases. In my experience, my companions (and I) worked very hard -- although maybe the validity of that assertion depends upon one's definition of work. And I found (and still find) the friends to be quite friendly -- of course, with some exceptions. You may very well have worked hard at whatever workers do. My experience has been that they come and visit for a week or so, do diddly squat whilst offering advice on how to mow the lawn and how to roast lamb. At recent special meetings at Hokitika, NZ I was flabbergasted to see how large one particular male worker had got... from tall and slim to tall and fat. That takes a lot of work. As for friends being friendly..... those who have been fortunate enough to leave are by and large shunned by those unfortunate enough to stay. That is not friendly.
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Post by Guest on Jun 4, 2017 5:40:40 GMT -5
If MP was moving from rented property to his own, with no mortgage, then that would be suspicious. But I suspect that he bought his first property as a young man at a reasonable price and watched the value soar. In the last 20+ years the house prices in the SE of England have exploded, so half a million is not unusual. He must be kicking himself that he didn't buy several back then!
While I was in the work, I never received enough to push me into the tax bracket even if I had completed a tax return, and if the finances were 'properly' organised then most donations could have Gift Aid (refund of income tax that the donor had paid) added to them so the workers would get more not less! But that would mean more hassle for everyone. The normal principle is that any bank accounts are joint accounts, so any abuse needs collusion, and those in the 'inner circle' tend to be those that are used to dealing with money and wouldn't be temped to help themselves. As far as I know, all countries work by the system of everybody starting the year with the same amount, which is why you don't get workers buying themselves fancy cars etc! Even smartphones and laptops tend to be gifts from friends/relatives, in most cases - I never wanted to be accused of wasting the friends' money on luxuries, and seldom had anything left by the end of preps.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 4, 2017 17:42:50 GMT -5
Craig Fulton at least went to the trouble of contacting Ben Crompton, with a view to Ben perhaps taking a stance on my relative, who has Alzheimer's, visiting relatives at her own discretion and having a TV if she wanted one.
Craig tells me Ben will not meet me and will not reassure my aunt on either of these points. Ben wants nothing to do with it, and says that it's a matter for the local elder (who he knows is under investigation for mishandling my relative's finances) and social services (who feel my aunt would benefit from a TV, but she doesn't have the option because of her fear of disapproval from the other 2x2s).
Never mind, I'm about to have another elder in the UK prosecuted for theft, unless the police turn out to be totally useless.
The elder I'm having problems with in connection with my elderly relative does not appear to be financially on the level at all, appears to be close to Ben Crompton, and appears to be handling money on behalf of Ben.
It looks to me that there's a newspaper story in this, and I've already been in touch with a national newspaper who seemed interested, but only if I was willing to speak out and be named. I think that's the next step after prosecuting this other elder.
Good luck Ben. You might be getting a dose of your own medicine if you're not careful. Don't go thinking you'll never be held responsible for the mess you've presided over, because things are changing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 18:06:42 GMT -5
Craig Fulton at least went to the trouble of contacting Ben Crompton, with a view to Ben perhaps taking a stance on my relative, who has Alzheimer's, visiting relatives at her own discretion and having a TV if she wanted one. Craig tells me Ben will not meet me and will not reassure my aunt on either of these points. Ben wants nothing to do with it, and says that it's a matter for the local elder (who he knows is under investigation for mishandling my relative's finances) and social services (who feel my aunt would benefit from a TV, but she doesn't have the option because of her fear of disapproval from the other 2x2s). Never mind, I'm about to have another elder in the UK prosecuted for theft, unless the police turn out to be totally useless. The elder I'm having problems with in connection with my elderly relative does not appear to be financially on the level at all, appears to be close to Ben Crompton, and appears to be handling money on behalf of Ben. It looks to me that there's a newspaper story in this, and I've already been in touch with a national newspaper who seemed interested, but only if I was willing to speak out and be named. I think that's the next step after prosecuting this other elder. Good luck Ben. You might be getting a dose of your own medicine if you're not careful. Don't go thinking you'll never be held responsible for the mess you've presided over, because things are changing. at what stage is she in her alzheimer's? she seems to be remembering alot more than she should with that disease.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 4, 2017 19:05:35 GMT -5
She is kind of like a normal person but with a very bad memory, which leads to a lot of confusion and anxiety, making her very vulnerable. The psychiatric nurse has described it as severe, which surprised me, because to me "severe" Alzheimer's means someone who doesn't recognise people. She's able to look after herself with the help of carers coming in twice a day and is able to do a bit of shopping at the local shop (but wouldn't really be able to actually do all her own shopping -- before the carers and food deliveries she was almost living on biscuits). I do most of her shopping for her now, and she has food deliveries of microwave meals that the carers heat up. She has forgotten many major life events, but often remembers if you can come up with something that jogs her memory. The biggest problem is really anxiety and confusion, which being alone most of the time, or else around people who are a bit unsettling (like this elder) provokes strongly.
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Post by Guest on Jun 5, 2017 12:03:41 GMT -5
If MP was moving from rented property to his own, with no mortgage, then that would be suspicious. But I suspect that he bought his first property as a young man at a reasonable price and watched the value soar. In the last 20+ years the house prices in the SE of England have exploded, so half a million is not unusual. He must be kicking himself that he didn't buy several back then! While I was in the work, I never received enough to push me into the tax bracket even if I had completed a tax return, and if the finances were 'properly' organised then most donations could have Gift Aid (refund of income tax that the donor had paid) added to them so the workers would get more not less! But that would mean more hassle for everyone. The normal principle is that any bank accounts are joint accounts, so any abuse needs collusion, and those in the 'inner circle' tend to be those that are used to dealing with money and wouldn't be temped to help themselves. As far as I know, all countries work by the system of everybody starting the year with the same amount, which is why you don't get workers buying themselves fancy cars etc! Even smartphones and laptops tend to be gifts from friends/relatives, in most cases - I never wanted to be accused of wasting the friends' money on luxuries, and seldom had anything left by the end of preps. When I left the work all I had in my wallet two hundreds dollars to start my new life. God has saved MOST of the workers the lust from hoarding the money for themselves. ALL of the money the workers have received during the year must turn in at the end of preps each year. The workers KNOW this, so they sent the money to the workers that need the money, who labor in smaller fields and they don't have money to buy gas, or send money to needy friends. This is to TEACH the workers to SHARE their money with others and NOT to hoard it for themselves.
I know and heard of some church elders and overseers have stolen/taken the money from the friends TRUST funds for their own personal use, and to start some kinds of businesses after leaving the work. Well, we KNOW what happened to Judas, who sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. He was the group banker/treasure!
It's good that the overseer appointed good/honest church elders, and friends to look after the friends trust funds. The LOVE of money is the ROOT of ALL evil. Give the responsibility to those who will NOT allow the MONEY to corrupt them, remember they are just steward of it NOT owners. The LOVE of MONEY is one of the most powerful and deadly sins it can bring people to bottomless pit of HELL.
I hate to be in Judas place in the day of Judgment or the church elders and overseers who take the friends trust funds for themselves... Jesus said about Judas, "It would have been better if Judas Had NOT been born.".... These people have sold their birth rights/eternal life like Essau, for a bowl of pottage= that can quench their fleshly desire for a few hours then eternal sufferings, pains, regrets to endure forever....
When I was in the work, we helped doing the dishes after dinners, mowing the friends lawn, fixing the roof, help painting the kitchen, pluming, electrical, washing the car, changing the oil, washing my companions clothes, etc... Too bad to hear that many of the younger workers today are NOT doing these things when they stay in the friends homes.
We work our butts off, having Bible Studies at the college, having studies with strangers, visiting the shut in friends, having funerals, picking up workers at the air port, visiting people in the hospitals and nursing homes, we were constantly on the go! ALL of my years in the work, ONLY one older worker let his younger companions having Monday off every week, to relax and to catch our breath.
This mirrors my experience very closely, with each companion being different from the last. You had just about figured out how to handle him and it was time to start again with the next! 😡 It was sometimes a relief to have someone else, sometimes I was sorry that I couldn't stay with him longer.
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Post by janj on Jun 6, 2017 5:30:34 GMT -5
In my experience, my companions (and I) worked very hard -- although maybe the validity of that assertion depends upon one's definition of work. And I found (and still find) the friends to be quite friendly -- of course, with some exceptions. You may very well have worked hard at whatever workers do. My experience has been that they come and visit for a week or so, do diddly squat whilst offering advice on how to mow the lawn and how to roast lamb. At recent special meetings at Hokitika, NZ I was flabbergasted to see how large one particular male worker had got... from tall and slim to tall and fat. That takes a lot of work. As for friends being friendly..... those who have been fortunate enough to leave are by and large shunned by those unfortunate enough to stay. That is not friendly.I have not experienced that...maybe you need to just speak for yourself. I guess if they are unfortunate enough to be 'fat and fessing 'they are going to some pretty negative vibes from you. Those vibes do tend to make people wary-not necessarily unfriendly.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 7, 2017 10:29:33 GMT -5
I'm sure there are workers who work endlessly to help others. But there appear to be very many who do almost none of what an ordinary person would call "work". Often they are left alone in people's houses when people go out to work and no-one actually even really knows what they do. Relatives of mine have often taken workers out on day trips, made meals for them, etc.
The lifestyle of a worker would be very unappealing to some of us, but extremely appealing to others. You do not have to work in an office or a factory (and workers often have minimal or no real saleable skills), get to meet a lot of people, travel a lot, people listen to what you say and respect you bordering on worshipping you. To those who wish to indulge themselves sexually, there is huge opportunity. For pedophiles, the opportunity is unparalleled. In what other religion do you get to stay in one family home after another, are trusted totally and have parents encouraging their children to call you "aunt" or "uncle"?
While most workers are doubtless absolutely not pedophiles, the minority that are, are able to cause incredible devastation. Most victims of Noel Tanner (one of the few who were convicted) for instance, did not come forwards to testify.
I also have to agree that the friends are not very friendly. If you leave the 2x2s, you're lucky if your relatives still want to stay in touch with you. If you have the temerity to talk about a problem you've discovered within the 2x2s, wave bye bye to contact with most people in that group.
It's not like the Church of England, where if you say you've found out that someone in it has done something wrong, generally a ton of others will take your concerns extremely seriously.
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Post by mdm on Jun 8, 2017 11:57:42 GMT -5
Craig Fulton at least went to the trouble of contacting Ben Crompton, with a view to Ben perhaps taking a stance on my relative, who has Alzheimer's, visiting relatives at her own discretion and having a TV if she wanted one. Craig tells me Ben will not meet me and will not reassure my aunt on either of these points. Ben wants nothing to do with it, and says that it's a matter for the local elder (who he knows is under investigation for mishandling my relative's finances) and social services (who feel my aunt would benefit from a TV, but she doesn't have the option because of her fear of disapproval from the other 2x2s). Never mind, I'm about to have another elder in the UK prosecuted for theft, unless the police turn out to be totally useless. The elder I'm having problems with in connection with my elderly relative does not appear to be financially on the level at all, appears to be close to Ben Crompton, and appears to be handling money on behalf of Ben. It looks to me that there's a newspaper story in this, and I've already been in touch with a national newspaper who seemed interested, but only if I was willing to speak out and be named. I think that's the next step after prosecuting this other elder. Good luck Ben. You might be getting a dose of your own medicine if you're not careful. Don't go thinking you'll never be held responsible for the mess you've presided over, because things are changing. Do professing people find it worrisome that an overseer isn't willing to talk to someone about issues that concern them?
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Jun 8, 2017 15:03:05 GMT -5
Craig Fulton at least went to the trouble of contacting Ben Crompton, with a view to Ben perhaps taking a stance on my relative, who has Alzheimer's, visiting relatives at her own discretion and having a TV if she wanted one. Craig tells me Ben will not meet me and will not reassure my aunt on either of these points. Ben wants nothing to do with it, and says that it's a matter for the local elder (who he knows is under investigation for mishandling my relative's finances) and social services (who feel my aunt would benefit from a TV, but she doesn't have the option because of her fear of disapproval from the other 2x2s). Never mind, I'm about to have another elder in the UK prosecuted for theft, unless the police turn out to be totally useless. The elder I'm having problems with in connection with my elderly relative does not appear to be financially on the level at all, appears to be close to Ben Crompton, and appears to be handling money on behalf of Ben. It looks to me that there's a newspaper story in this, and I've already been in touch with a national newspaper who seemed interested, but only if I was willing to speak out and be named. I think that's the next step after prosecuting this other elder. Good luck Ben. You might be getting a dose of your own medicine if you're not careful. Don't go thinking you'll never be held responsible for the mess you've presided over, because things are changing. If I was Ben I would be jumping of my high horse and hopping in to a car and racing to you. It is a disgrace that he wont meet with you (if it is in England / Wales). I think Craig has learned a lot from others costly mistakes / turning a blind eye / shunning those that were damaged for life. It would seem he gave Ben good advise but he isn't heeding it. Can't understand though why Craig was contacted as he isn't in control in England or Wales. That's what I was told / read. Is problem in England. Let me know which paper and when the story / court case is printed as I want it Concerned for you and your relative. Glad I saw this many years ago - whitewash everything and stay silent - if you have a complaint we don't want to hear about it Good Luck and keep this site updated I for one won't be told as not on grapevine
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Post by johnfields on Jun 8, 2017 15:59:41 GMT -5
Yes, it's in the UK.
What happened was, I posted stuff on the Dialogue Ireland site, run by a guy who seems a bit tetchy, but who kindly put me in touch with Craig. They have had a bit of a discussion about the 2x2s on there, and I've also realised that the 2x2 financial system, from what I know of it, would struggle to function under Republic of Ireland tax laws. So I've speculated about that a bit here and there.
Craig, whatever faults he may have, at least phoned me, twice, and messaged Ben for me.
Craig and the Dialogue Ireland chap wanted me to meet with Ben. To me this is all ridiculous, but perhaps I wasn't clear with them. I would be happy to meet with Ben anyway. I am in the UK and have a car! All I'm looking for is for someone like Ben to make a quick call (by phone would be fine) to my aunt, telling her it's OK to visit relatives and to have a TV if she wants one. Or else to inform me that either or both of these are against the 2x2 faith or whatever.
While Craig was clear on the phone to me that their faith does not stand for cutting off people from relatives (according to him!) and seemed to strongly imply that TV was no sort of issue in this age of computers and smart phones, he was not willing to do anything (like make a phone call to my aunt) basically for fear of stepping on Ben's toes.
Is this bizarro world or what? Anyone would think I'd asked the Pope to disclose the Vatican accounts to me (hmmm, except they already did that in 2013).
The next step for me, while awaiting the outcome of the Office of the Public Guardian investigation into elder #1, is to contact the police about elder #2. But since the case of elder #2 involves other people, who I'm working with, it's their decision. They are hopping mad though, so although for most people going to the police feels like a big step, I'm hoping that next time I talk with them in a few days, we'll make an appointment to talk to the police together.
I've consulted three solicitors specialising in various areas over elder #2 and they all concur that a criminal act appears to have taken place. I'll talk about that as soon as I'm able to. Don't want to give this chap advance warning at the moment, because elder #1 popped off to Zurich for five days when he first got wind of any possible investigation involving his finances, and I don't know what he did there, although I could hazard a guess -- but I won't.
If I was Ben I'd disassociate myself from elder #1 pronto, and from elder #2 when he finds out who that is. Ben looks guilty by association.
I don't particularly want to go back to the national newspaper I had a chat with, since they are only interested if they can mention me as speaking out. And then I'd really have to go to town on the 2x2s, talking about their problem with child abuse and their financial opacity. But it does look like it might end up coming to that. I think that would be 3-4 months or more down the line though, since I want other legal processes to complete first.
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Jun 9, 2017 9:25:57 GMT -5
Well I knew Craig slightly when he went in the work and he seem a nice guy I have heard, that he is no push over but a very approachable and soft hearted person, unless he has changed over reasoned years Overseers wont cross borders to sort problems but as Craig has done he has made Ben aware he knew and asked him to sort it. I once heard their was a Mr Snow who was an overseer of European overseers but well Craig might tell you how to contact him Re TV they would staunchly advice against it but if you got one I believe a blind eye will be taken, that is what a person told me who knows one of the friends quite well. You wouldn't get a meeting if you had one I'd say Hope you get things sorted out but I wont be holding my breath
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 16:10:50 GMT -5
While Craig was clear on the phone to me that their faith does not stand for cutting off people from relatives (according to him!) and seemed to strongly imply that TV was no sort of issue in this age of computers and smart phones, ..... Let me go over that again just so I haven't misunderstood you. Craig Fulton, very senior / de facto head worker in Ireland, strongly implied that a professing family having a 50 inch telly on the wall of their living room is now perfectly acceptable in Ireland? Did I grasp that OK? Matt10
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Post by johnfields on Jun 9, 2017 18:31:46 GMT -5
It's hard to say really what Craig intended; he said a lot without saying much. He said that in this day and age, you can access worse things on your smartphone than on a TV, therefore "we've moved beyond just telling people not to have a TV".
He also said I could even just keep myself out of it, and point out that social services have recommended a TV as a form of mental stimulation likely to help somewhat with my aunt's condition.
That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of TV, but created the impression that if it was up to him, he would tell my aunt that TV for her would be OK. Whether he actually would or not, I don't know.
My aunt's situation is unusual in that mental stimulation is a mental health issue for her, and she's not getting very much of it.
I think it's fair to say that a professing family with a 50 inch telly in their living room would not go down well in Ireland.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 16:00:32 GMT -5
It's hard to say really what Craig intended; he said a lot without saying much. He said that in this day and age, you can access worse things on your smartphone than on a TV, therefore "we've moved beyond just telling people not to have a TV". He also said I could even just keep myself out of it, and point out that social services have recommended a TV as a form of mental stimulation likely to help somewhat with my aunt's condition. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of TV, but created the impression that if it was up to him, he would tell my aunt that TV for her would be OK. Whether he actually would or not, I don't know. My aunt's situation is unusual in that mental stimulation is a mental health issue for her, and she's not getting very much of it. I think it's fair to say that a professing family with a 50 inch telly in their living room would not go down well in Ireland. I think you're probably correct as regards the 50 inch telly. Craig may well wish to convey the message that they have moved on in an honourable attempt to be kind to your aunt, but if the 50 inch telly is still a big NO NO, then they can't have moved on very far. Or can they? I recall that 'letting the world into your home' used to be one of their fundamental red lines, however this is not the way it appears now. The world now appears to be a much welcome guest providing it doesn't take certain forms. Once the newspaper, the National Geographic and the Readers Digest were about the only acceptable worldly additions to the home, and a television, radio or stereo certainly weren't welcome. Now having a smart phone, an iPad or a laptop providing access to whatever online worldly pleasures one desires are deemed perfectly acceptable leaving the question as to what worldly additions to the home are now frowned upon. The 50 inch telly is an obvious answer but it's difficult to think of what else remains beyond the pale ... other than rather obvious examples such as having a live-in French prostitute (I assume that's still a NO NO). It's regrettable that anyone still pays any attention to what the workers say as regards how one should live their life. I'm certainly no fan of the Christian God but at least taking your life instruction from a god has a lot more going for it than taking your instruction from a peculiar group of men whose views change with the seasons and whose history shows they that themselves can not be relied upon to exercise good judgement when it comes to dealing with worldly matters. Matt10
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Post by johnfields on Jun 11, 2017 17:51:58 GMT -5
Haha, does that mean I need to get rid of my live-in French prostitute before I can be baptised? Damn!
It is a strange contradiction ... the TV taboo in the British Isles really seems to have stuck, and yet as Craig says, there we all are, workers, professing people, atheists and sundry others alike, carrying around phones that can access far worse than most TVs.
Another odd thing is that the Daily Mail seems quite popular around here. I don't know if it's just members of my family or what. But if I buy that for a professing relative, I feel like asking for it in a brown paper bag. I'm no prude, but I don't want my news mixed up with celebrity rear ends, etc. And yet the idea of a TV tuned permanently to a natural history or news channel apparently goes down like a lead balloon.
I feel it would be an enormous and tangible improvement for my aunt if she were involved with mainstream Christian groups. They'd come and visit her, take her homemade cakes, etc, and they wouldn't try to tell her how to live her life. At the moment all she's got from being in this faith is two or three meetings a week, one weekly lunch with a lady who means well and has helped my aunt a lot but frankly seems to have zero understanding of Alzheimer's from what I've seen, and an intimidating elder periodically stomping around her house and messing up her finances in a way that would have left her high and dry if he'd died before her, and was unsettling to her.
Someone once said that it's only a matter of time before "the Truth" either collapses or hits the headlines in a major way. Another scholarly article pointed out that sects that have a two-hundred year history have often undergone quite radical transformation, or else collapse, after a century or so. The "Truth", at the time the article was written twenty years ago, had been going for a century. It's at that point now whether it's either make or break time. They're clearly seeing dwindling meeting attendance, people leaving and children not sticking with it.
I doubt whether Noel Tanner's conviction will be the last conviction of a worker for historical child abuse in the UK. More are likely on their way.
I don't think they're capable of reforming. Soon "the meetings" are going to consist purely of old ladies, a few elderly gentlemen, and a handful of really crazy people.
It doesn't have to be like that, but they're losing their unique selling point of being the only Christian group that goes back to Jesus (a bunch of other sects claim that, but none of them are well-known). Once that's gone, the idea of preachers staying in homes becomes obviously bizarre, if it wasn't to start with.
If they did reform themselves, they'd end up having to drop the hatred of other churches and would become just another normal Christian group. They don't seem to want that at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 4:54:23 GMT -5
Haha, does that mean I need to get rid of my live-in French prostitute before I can be baptised? Damn! Not necessarily. Providing you keep your French prostitute in a cupboard or in the attic you might just get away with it. In my time I knew a guy who had this large, conveniently concealed space under his fireplace in which he kept his television and video recorder and this didn't prevent him being granted a Wednesday night meeting. The nature of the 2x2 church encourages secrecy and this secrecy encourages hypocrisy and the workers owning Smart Phone and iPads is surely the epitome of this. Goodness only knows what goes on now in the secrecy of some workers' bedrooms given that these mobile devices have opened up such a pandoras box of worldly goods and goodies that you risk appearing old fashioned if your only worldly concession is the keeping of a French prostitute. I do understand how you feel about your aunt. I recall my elderly grandmother who lived alone complaining endlessly about not having any 2x2 visitors when we arrived on our fortnightly visits. She wasn't very mobile and her only regular trips out were to meetings. The only entertainment she had was a piano on which she would play hymns and sing about Jesus, and a telephone which rarely seemed to ring. She used to pass the time by writing notes of meetings. Looking back I despair at how incredibly dull and unstimulated her life must have been. Strict adherence to the 2x2 lifestyle doubtless brought her some misplaced contentment but it can't have done much for her quality of life or her mental health. And she wasn't alone. I had a plethora of elderly widowed aunts in similar situations. One was a late convert to 2x2ism and in her eighties took to joining her neighbour on her church group outings in the form of a weekly bus trip in an effort to curb her lonliness. But when the 2x2 elder got to hear of it the response of the 2x2 church was to ban her from speaking in meetings. The b******s. Matt10
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 12, 2017 6:53:25 GMT -5
Grrrrr! Wonder if they began visiting and including her more after they nixed her weekly outings? Did the ban last her lifetime?
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Post by johnfields on Jun 12, 2017 10:05:41 GMT -5
That's horrific. You have to wonder where the conscience of these people is. They're so sure they're right all the time (some of them) and seem to think life is meant to consist of endless pointless suffering.
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Post by snow on Jun 12, 2017 13:08:58 GMT -5
It's hard to say really what Craig intended; he said a lot without saying much. He said that in this day and age, you can access worse things on your smartphone than on a TV, therefore "we've moved beyond just telling people not to have a TV". He also said I could even just keep myself out of it, and point out that social services have recommended a TV as a form of mental stimulation likely to help somewhat with my aunt's condition. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of TV, but created the impression that if it was up to him, he would tell my aunt that TV for her would be OK. Whether he actually would or not, I don't know. My aunt's situation is unusual in that mental stimulation is a mental health issue for her, and she's not getting very much of it. I think it's fair to say that a professing family with a 50 inch telly in their living room would not go down well in Ireland. I think you're probably correct as regards the 50 inch telly. Craig may well wish to convey the message that they have moved on in an honourable attempt to be kind to your aunt, but if the 50 inch telly is still a big NO NO, then they can't have moved on very far. Or can they? I recall that 'letting the world into your home' used to be one of their fundamental red lines, however this is not the way it appears now. The world now appears to be a much welcome guest providing it doesn't take certain forms. Once the newspaper, the National Geographic and the Readers Digest were about the only acceptable worldly additions to the home, and a television, radio or stereo certainly weren't welcome. Now having a smart phone, an iPad or a laptop providing access to whatever online worldly pleasures one desires are deemed perfectly acceptable leaving the question as to what worldly additions to the home are now frowned upon. The 50 inch telly is an obvious answer but it's difficult to think of what else remains beyond the pale ... other than rather obvious examples such as having a live-in French prostitute (I assume that's still a NO NO). It's regrettable that anyone still pays any attention to what the workers say as regards how one should live their life. I'm certainly no fan of the Christian God but at least taking your life instruction from a god has a lot more going for it than taking your instruction from a peculiar group of men whose views change with the seasons and whose history shows they that themselves can not be relied upon to exercise good judgement when it comes to dealing with worldly matters. Matt10 Ah but that's what you find in all religions if you study them. They all change with the seasons. That's how it becomes very evident pretty quickly that they are all created by man trying to find meaning in their lives. Some I'm sure were created to get power over the people. The Catholic church comes to mind as being a big one that did that. They weren't at all upset by a little bloodshed to get their version of Christianity to be the accepted one.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 17, 2017 3:59:18 GMT -5
Well I knew Craig slightly when he went in the work and he seem a nice guy I have heard, that he is no push over but a very approachable and soft hearted person, unless he has changed over reasoned years Overseers wont cross borders to sort problems but as Craig has done he has made Ben aware he knew and asked him to sort it. I once heard their was a Mr Snow who was an overseer of European overseers but well Craig might tell you how to contact him Re TV they would staunchly advice against it but if you got one I believe a blind eye will be taken, that is what a person told me who knows one of the friends quite well. You wouldn't get a meeting if you had one I'd say Hope you get things sorted out but I wont be holding my breath I wonder if someone could clarify whether this Mr. Snow wanted to remove a Mr. Thompson from the work? [this question replaces an inadvertent completely unsubstantiated allegation that I had thoughtlessly made] I'm currently in this situation with regard to an elder that he appears to have stolen a car while executing a will (along with apparently doing various other unsavoury things that are impossible to prove), but claims to the police that he hasn't. We haven't had the car registration so couldn't get to the bottom of the matter. But I've already unearthed one person who has a friend who has a photo of this car showing the reg; it's small but we're trying digital enhancement. Others will have a photo, and I will find it if I have to, and get to the bottom of that. If we can go through the process of pressing charges against this elder (unless it turns out that he actually told the truth to the police, against the eyewitness testimony of others), that would help me a lot in becoming familiar with the whole process of unearthing fraud in wills. Since I'm a computer programmer, it strikes me that I could build up node graphs using social network information that would identify the majority of 2x2 families. Cross-referencing with obituaries and genealogical data would enable me to obtain wills of those recently deceased (in many countries, particularly the UK and Ireland), and to check the wills for red flags. Activity on social media can then help me find beneficiaries and relatives who may be rather unhappy, and I would think I'd find further elders to prosecute, even if my general investigations into 2x2 tax fraud do not bear fruit. It seems that in the UK and probably Ireland, 2x2 women were historically kept away from men, or put in a situation where it was hard to find a husband. Elders were encouraged to take care of them in their old age, along with widows. This last bit sounds great, except that elders can win favour with overseers by channeling cash into the 2x2 coffers. Wealthy elders clearly have higher status than non-wealthy elders. That's a recipe for guaranteed disaster, since bad apples in there have an incentive to commit fraud, and the hidden nature of 2x2 funds makes it easier to get away with it. If the 2x2 leadership are all as Christian as they claim, of course this shouldn't worry them in the least. Some geeky guy spends his time looking for fraud that does not exist .... no problem. I'd be doing them a favour by unearthing two or three bad apples. But if fraud is as widespread as it appears to me to be at this moment, it'll be a different story. I'm aware that a senior worker killed himself "to avoid damage to the kingdom", and I don't want any suicides. So this is no pleasant task, although I do enjoy a spot of programming. But on the other hand, if fraud is going on and it's left unchecked with those responsible not held to account, that isn't acceptable at all. What is now crystal clear is that the 2x2s have had a big problem with paedophiles, and likely still do. A minority of workers are "tempted" strangely by young kids. Since they move from house to house, no-one questions them and children are encouraged to call them "uncle" or "aunt", that seems to have created a huge problem. That's not an area of expertise for me, but paedophiles anecdotally seem unusually prone to committing financial fraud along with their child molestation. You'd think that someone who was committing one crime would be wary of committing other unrelated crimes that might expose the first, but it seems more to be the other way around. "Might as well be hung for a lamb as a sheep" they perhaps think.
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Post by kenco69 on Jun 17, 2017 12:15:25 GMT -5
Probably is the same Mr Snow you are both referring to. He, from memory if I'm correct is a tall broad man of 70+ now) I am told made an undercutting reference to something TG said about Christmas in Ireland some years ago. I'm sure, like most workers, he can wear the hat to fit the occasion, but I did think he would have been anxious to rid the 2x2's of sex offenders, fraudsters and anyone whose actions could bring the 2x2's in to disrepute. But Money Talks. So he may have been afraid that the float would go down. A few grand might get you some info, or stop someone else from having their name blackened
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 17:51:03 GMT -5
Would this Mr. Snow be the same Mr. Snow who when a certain Australian worker started imploring people to cooperate with the authorities in exposing child abuse in the 2x2s, flew halfway across the world from Europe to Australia to try to [removed unsubstantiated allegation]? I don't know the truth of all you have written in the rest of your post about what elders are or aren't doing where you are. But I do know what happened in regard to what you are suggesting in this sentence. I know your statement/suggestion is incorrect on a number of counts and should never have been written here due to its inaccuracy. Sadly, when you make incorrect comments like this (on the one thing I do know about) , it leads me to distrust the rest of what you write.
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