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Post by iamsaved on May 7, 2017 9:51:06 GMT -5
Could it be that christianity is a mental illness? "When one man is delusional they call him insane, when many are they call it religion" great quote!
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 14:22:35 GMT -5
the same question could be asked of atheism or any belief...
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 15:09:46 GMT -5
Could it be that christianity is a mental illness? "When one man is delusional they call him insane, when many are they call it religion" great quote! "The Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) recognized the diagnosis of shared psychotic disorder (or folie à deux), but the criteria and supportive text did not address religious beliefs or cults. DSM-5 does not include shared psychotic disorder, but instead has “delusional symptoms in [the] partner of [an] individual with delusional disorder” (Ref. 6, p 122), within other specified schizophrenia spectrum and other psychotic disorder as a diagnosis for an individual who, in the context of a relationship, receives delusional content from a dominant partner but may not entirely meet criteria for delusional disorder. The text associated with the diagnosis of delusional disorder in DSM-5 indicates that “an individual's cultural and religious background must be taken into account in evaluating the possible presence of delusional disorder” (Ref. 6, p 93). It is unclear to what degree “cultural and religious background” could include participation in a cult. The outline for the cultural formulation in DSM-IV-TR and the complete cultural formulation in DSM-5 likewise provide no guidance for evaluators when distinguishing between delusional beliefs and religious convictions."- Between Belief and Delusion: Cult Members and the Insanity Pleajaapl.org/content/jaapl/44/1/53.full.pdf
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Post by Grant on May 7, 2017 15:10:45 GMT -5
Many mental health professionals believe in a holistic approach. Spirituality being and important part in healing the whole person.
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 15:15:04 GMT -5
Many mental health professionals believe in a holistic approach. Spirituality being and important part in healing the whole person. The Secular Therapist Project
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Post by Grant on May 7, 2017 15:21:05 GMT -5
I would say it is often the other way round. Many health professionals are afraid to express their religious views. Spirituality on the other hand is wide and varied.
Many people who have found religion have been healed of their addictions and afflictions. Take AA for example and their principle of a higher power.
Many people acknowledge that there is something bigger than themselves out there. Perhaps those who claim otherwise are the ones who are delusional.
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Post by continuer on May 7, 2017 15:44:37 GMT -5
I have experienced life with no faith - result confusion and madness. Today I experience life with faith - result peace, a sense of direction and sanity.
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 15:51:08 GMT -5
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Post by snow on May 7, 2017 15:53:05 GMT -5
I have experienced life with no faith - result confusion and madness. Today I experience life with faith - result peace, a sense of direction and sanity. For me it was the exact opposite.
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 16:17:51 GMT -5
I have experienced life with no faith - result confusion and madness. Today I experience life with faith - result peace, a sense of direction and sanity. If you suffered early childhood religious indoctrination it is traumatic and confusion to learn there is no "ghost in the machine". For me learning this was liberating. I understand most of the world still holds on to religion. Compare countries with the "best mental health" and countries that are the "least religious". They tend to be the same countries.
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 16:24:26 GMT -5
I have experienced life with no faith - result confusion and madness. Today I experience life with faith - result peace, a sense of direction and sanity. The story of "Legion" demonstrates this.... Life without Christ was filled with madness living with the dead and demons spirits... Then he met Jesus his life filled with peace, happiness and contentment. I had lived a life like "Legion" filled with unrest and fill with demon spirits, and after I met Jesus my life filled with joy and peace.Note " The story" ....
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 17:24:59 GMT -5
NOT a story like "science fiction"... but a REAL life event of a man named "Legion" mean many demons spirits went into the group of 2000 swine near by and they drown, when Jesus was preaching in that village on earth. I know the story, but I don't belive in spirits or demons because there is no evidence. Godchecker tracks almost 4,000 gods, goddesses and spirits. I suspect you too also don't belive in most of them??? It's not good for your mental health to say you believe something, when you don't. There's a verse for that 2.... :-)
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 17:44:19 GMT -5
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 17:51:59 GMT -5
I have experienced 1st hand of demonic possession so I KNOW is REAL, and I was NOT mental ill either. My head was clear and I KNOW and recognize something was NOT quite right about it so I seek God for help and He led me to the workers (Leo Stancliff and Larry Taylor) were having Bible Studies on University of Guam campus lawn in 1978-1980. I believe your experience was real to you and your experience should not be dismissed, but others may have different experiences. Mental illness is very common but saying demons are the cause isn't the best form of help.
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 18:01:37 GMT -5
"Like I said in the past, get professional help when a person has mental illness problems, and stay on medication....." I agree with this part.
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Post by continuer on May 7, 2017 19:15:55 GMT -5
But let's not forget that around the world, hundreds of thousands of people have got sober using the AA twelve step programme and a faith in a higher power. It obviously does not work for everyone but it has helped many (including a personal friend of mine) and dramatically changed many lives for the better. Go to almost anywhere in the western world and you will find AA meetings with many satisfied customers.
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 19:46:49 GMT -5
But let's not forget that around the world, hundreds of thousands of people have got sober using the AA twelve step programme and a faith in a higher power. It obviously does not work for everyone but it has helped many (including a personal friend of mine) and dramatically changed many lives for the better. Go to almost anywhere in the western world and you will find AA meetings with many satisfied customers. If AA helps, and the cure is not worse than the illness, then that's some progress. Worth a read. The pseudo-science of Alcoholics Anonymous: There’s a better way to treat addiction AA and rehab culture have shockingly low success rates, and made it impossible to have real debate about addiction. " Peer-reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between 5 and 10 percent." "In 2006, one of the most prestigious scientific research organizations in the world, the Cochrane Collaboration, conducted a review of the many studies conducted between 1966 and 2005 and reached a stunning conclusion: “ No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA” in treating alcoholism. " AA was founded as a religious organization, so I object to these steps: Step 1: “We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.” Step 2: “Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.” Step 3: “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God.” Step 6: “Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.” Step 7: “Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.”
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Post by continuer on May 7, 2017 20:09:55 GMT -5
It is wrong to say that AA was founded as a religious organisation. It wasn't and I am told that there is no requirement that members should join a church. It was recognised however that there is a spiritual dimension to the "cure" for the illness of alcoholism (and it is accepted as an illness by the World Health Organisation). Today, over 1 million people in the US regularly attend AA meetings and if they get help, more power to their elbow, I say. I know one guy whose life was changed dramatically for the better as a result of attending AA meetings, starting to work the twelve step programme and accepting that only a power greater than himself could deliver him from his alcoholism.
If some 5 million people attend an AA meeting in America (and I million stick), even if 10% get help, that's an awful lot of people (and that is just the US).
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 20:25:54 GMT -5
It is wrong to say that AA was founded as a religious organisation. It wasn't and I am told that there is no requirement that members should join a church. It was recognised however that there is a spiritual dimension to the "cure" for the illness of alcoholism (and it is accepted as an illness by the World Health Organisation). Today, over 1 million people in the US regularly attend AA meetings and if they get help, more power to their elbow, I say. I know one guy whose life was changed dramatically for the better as a result of attending AA meetings, starting to work the twelve step programme and accepting that only a power greater than himself could deliver him from his alcoholism. I am not refuting your claim that you know a guy who was helped by AA. But to claim AA is the BEST solution you need a better argument (data). For example: " I know a guy" is anecdotal evidence. " Today, over 1 million people" is Argumentum ad populum A history of AA is here. AA requires a belief in a "higher power". If AA is NOT religious then, why have "god" in any of the steps?
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Post by continuer on May 7, 2017 20:34:39 GMT -5
Well, I am no authority on AA but it is pretty clear that a lot of people have been helped by it. I have never said that AA is "the best solution" but I am not aware of any data that suggests something else has helped more people than AA. And even if such data exists (which I doubt), my point is simply that "AA works for a great many people". God in the steps is "the God of your understanding" and, so far as I am aware, no-one in AA tries to define the sort of God you should be looking to. So the programme clearly has a spiritual dimension but not a religious one.
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 20:50:16 GMT -5
Well, I am no authority on AA but it is pretty clear that a lot of people have been helped by it. I have never said that AA is "the best solution" but I am not aware of any data that suggests something else has helped more people than AA. And even if such data exists (which I doubt), my point is simply that "AA works for a great many people". God in the steps is "the God of your understanding" and, so far as I am aware, no-one in AA tries to define the sort of God you should be looking to. So the programme clearly has a spiritual dimension but not a religious one. I am no authority on AA either. I drink but it has never controlled me. I feel sorry for those, who probably no fault of their own, are subjected to addictions. My dialog with you is only to raise awareness of different point of view. The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous - Its faith-based 12-step program dominates treatment in the United States. But researchers have debunked central tenets of AA doctrine and found dozens of other treatments more effective. "I am not aware of any data" is an Argument from ignorance
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Post by continuer on May 7, 2017 20:59:04 GMT -5
So is there data that shows other treatments are more effective than AA? So far as I know, there are no records to accurately show the number of people AA has helped to get sober (and stay sober). So how can it be shown that dozens of other treatments are more effective and have helped more people than AA? Where can we find this data?
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Post by continuer on May 7, 2017 21:10:01 GMT -5
I do, of course, accept that AA may not be the only answer!
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Post by xna on May 7, 2017 21:19:02 GMT -5
So far as I know, there are no records to accurately show the number of people AA has helped to get sober (and stay sober). So how can it be shown that dozens of other treatments are more effective and have helped more people than AA? Where can we find this data? I think we have highjacked this "mental illness" tread. The studies I posted earlier shows AA has a 5-10% success rate, & this is the best data I have found on efficacy. If AA produced great results, wouldn't they flaunt that? Addiction is a difficult problem, and I'm not sure if it will ever be eliminated. Of the non religious alternatives, Smart Recovery is touted as "evidence based" vs. AA "faith based"
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Post by continuer on May 7, 2017 21:24:55 GMT -5
OK - interesting stuff. I think that is just about enough on alcoholism for now!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 7, 2017 23:22:20 GMT -5
It is wrong to say that AA was founded as a religious organisation. It wasn't and I am told that there is no requirement that members should join a church. It was recognised however that there is a spiritual dimension to the "cure" for the illness of alcoholism (and it is accepted as an illness by the World Health Organisation). Today, over 1 million people in the US regularly attend AA meetings and if they get help, more power to their elbow, I say. I know one guy whose life was changed dramatically for the better as a result of attending AA meetings, starting to work the twelve step programme and accepting that only a power greater than himself could deliver him from his alcoholism. If some 5 million people attend an AA meeting in America (and I million stick), even if 10% get help, that's an awful lot of people (and that is just the US). Sorry, -but Alcoholics Anonymous was definitely started by a religious group.
The origins of Alcoholics Anonymous can be traced to the Oxford Group, a religious movement popular in the United States and Europe in the early 20th century.
Members of the Oxford Group practiced a formula of self-improvement by performing self-inventory, admitting wrongs, making amends, using prayer and meditation, and carrying the message to others.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 7, 2017 23:35:51 GMT -5
OK - interesting stuff. I think that is just about enough on alcoholism for now! Alcoholism and other substance abuse are important to our health and well being. American Addiction Centers
Several alternatives to AA exist that are more secular in nature.
These alternatives to traditional 12-Step programs generally ask individuals to find motivation within themselves and to learn internal control instead of seeking an external source of power.
Alternatives to 12-Step programs also tend to evolve with new research, and they may be more flexible in their approaches than AA and other 12-Step groups.
Alternative groups still rely on peer support and provide tools for minimizing relapse.
Most of these programs are free to join, with the only requirement being that individuals struggling with addiction wish to achieve and maintain abstinence.
Some common alternatives to 12-Step programs include:
-Self-Management and Recovery Training (SMART) Recovery -Women for Sobriety - Secular Organizations for Sobriety (S.O.S.) - LifeRing Secular Recovery -Moderation Management
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Post by dmmichgood on May 7, 2017 23:43:44 GMT -5
the same question could be asked of atheism or any belief... Wally, Wally, -I despair that you will ever understand that atheism is NOT a belief, - atheism is the LACK of a belief!
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