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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 5, 2017 20:06:24 GMT -5
Ross.Bowden , At least one person prays in every fellowship meeting that I have been in for years and years that God would hear ALL that call on His name, and that doesn't end there ...workers have been in these meetings and to my knowledge no one has ever been asked to pray differently.......to me that's not exclusive, that's not limiting.......perhaps it's a case of only wanting to hear that which suits the person's agenda at that time.....so thankful God hears and knows all PS this particular minister wasn't talking about bible studies in homes,halls and coffee shops, he was talking about his belief about fellowshipping in the home 'like you people do'.......guess he wouldn't be welcome as a minister at St Ives any time soon. Of course, he'd be welcome at St Ives - your comment is just a cheap shot The fact is you don't always fellowship in homes so you need to tell your contact a little more! The highlight of everyone's year is convention which is not in a home. That's fellowship. Your gospel meetings throughout the year are generally never in a home. That's fellowship as well. So the notion that you only meet in homes (which is not required Biblically anyway at all) is incorrect. There are a number of non-exclusive people in your fellowship which is great and I'm sure that they pray more broadly - that is wonderful. I'm sure the number will increase as well over time. But let me know when the workers start praying for Christ's work in the world outside of the boundaries of your fellowship. Let me know when they start recognising that people can be saved outside of your church. I say this very seriously to them because it is a serious thing to try and place limits on the grace and work of our Lord in His world. I fear for those who have limited the power of Jesus and the drawing of the Father. When the limit salvation to only those that are 2x2s or any other sect, they are wrongly judging trillions upon trillions of people to a lost eternity. Would this not displease the righteous Judge? What kind of reward would be given for this kind of lack of understanding and wrongful judgment? I used to think that many years ago myself, but now it brings me great shame for even thinking that much less saying or showing that.
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Post by howitis on Mar 5, 2017 20:25:03 GMT -5
Not one person can limit the power of God, limit salvation to anyone or His work in anyone's life.....as individuals we ourselves can turn our backs on God , but God, Himself draws unto Him those He will
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Post by joanna on Mar 5, 2017 20:47:03 GMT -5
sharingtheriches what say Ye about the infinite numbers of people who Christians believe will be subjected to a lost eternity? Or are you a religious pluralist who believes that all will be saved, whether atheist, Jew, Muslim or Hindu?
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 5, 2017 21:09:18 GMT -5
Not one person can limit the power of God, limit salvation to anyone or His work in anyone's life.....as individuals we ourselves can turn our backs on God , but God, Himself draws unto Him those He will Hi howitis, thank you for your welcome a couple of days ago . I just wanted to say that the very idea that people have to go to missions, and profess through a worker prove they are exclusive.
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 16:14:06 GMT -5
I have never heard a worker preach that the work of God cannot occur outside the 'fellowship and ministry' of the '2x2's'!!!!! Ross.Bowden, If you've actually heard that preached please let me know when and where
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Post by jondough on Mar 6, 2017 16:42:03 GMT -5
I have never heard a worker preach that the work of God cannot occur outside the 'fellowship and ministry' of the '2x2's'!!!!! Ross.Bowden, If you've actually heard that preached please let me know when and where Howitis. Are you saying that the Workers are non-exclusive? Just trying to figure out how you understand it.
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hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Mar 6, 2017 17:17:22 GMT -5
I have never heard a worker preach that the work of God cannot occur outside the 'fellowship and ministry' of the '2x2's'!!!!! Ross.Bowden , If you've actually heard that preached please let me know when and where This turns on what you mean by "the work of God cannot occur outside of 2x2s." Are you referencing what Ross said in an earlier post that the work of God in Christ throughout the world was bigger than the box he originally put that work in? I don't think Ross is saying the workers preach that God cannot work outside of the fellowship (who are we to tell God what He cannot do?) but that what the workers believe is that no one can be saved outside of their ministry. I know Dean Brauer (sp?), now (or soon to be) overseer of Oregon felt that someone could possibly be saved outside of the workers' ministry but that God would lead them to the fellowship as evidence of their salvation. I don't know how common that belief is, however. So, to phrase the question clearly: are the workers preaching that people could be saved outside of their ministry, stay outside of the fellowship for life (despite having ample opportunity to join), and still be considered saved? That would be the work of God in a larger box that I believe Ross had in mind. I'm speaking for Ross, however.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 6, 2017 17:41:43 GMT -5
I have never heard a worker preach that the work of God cannot occur outside the 'fellowship and ministry' of the '2x2's'!!!!! Ross.Bowden , If you've actually heard that preached please let me know when and where Howitis,
I never heard workers preach anything but that the *TRUTH* was the only way in which one could be "saved!"
I heard it all my life that the workers believe is that no one can be saved outside of their ministry.
The only way that someone could possibly be saved outside of the workers' ministry was that God would lead them to the fellowship!
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 17:50:50 GMT -5
Hi jondough, what I'm trying to say is that there are many things that are said that people choose to take out of context. To a point Christianity is exclusive, we don't have a choice in that, think about it......Jesus said 'no man cometh to the Father, but by me', 'strait is the gate', 'upon this rock I will build my church'.....others eluded to exclusivity....'one faith, one Lord......'.....this isn't something we can pick and choose over.......so when workers say 'this is the way we need to walk', or 'Jesus way is the only way to heaven'.....that's what they are talking about..yes I know many have perhaps said that one must profess in a Gospel meeting....rah, rah, rah, and perhaps they believe that, but I think most are talking explicitly about the way of Jesus. It's interesting to note that now many of the other denominations are taking a lower key attitude to wearing robes, celebrations etc and are meeting in homes, having yearly gatherings or conventions.......and we all know once this wasn't the case, these denominations are also becoming 'less exclusive' than they once were as are the '2x2's' These are interesting times we are living in as we see God starting to draw His people to Himself as in the verse '...other sheep that I have, who are not of this fold, them also I must bring......' As for the workers preaching that 'Gods work cannot occur outside the fellowship and ministry of the '2x2's', I've certainly never heard that!!
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Post by Pragmatic on Mar 6, 2017 18:26:28 GMT -5
Quote from above - "As for the workers preaching that 'Gods work cannot occur outside the fellowship and ministry of the '2x2's', I've certainly never heard that!!"
Of course you won't hear that....that would be dumb, but there are a number of things that imply that.
Often it's not what is said, but what is not said. It's also how people react when put in a position with Christians from another church. For example, do they say "Amen" to a Presbyterian's Grace or Prayer? Would they fellowship with a Baptist?
What sort of comments are made in the Sunday morning meeting after a funeral at an orthodox church has been attended....you don't usually hear that it was a lovely service, they felt the Spirit etc. No, there'll be a negative....and why?
Why is it that when a Christian from another church attends meetings, some workers and elders make the comment that they "need to be unsaved before they can be saved." Why do they need to be re-baptised? Why do they stand down those who have "married outside" in some places.
Surely this screams exclusivity.
AR apparently made a comment in Europe once, at a Special Meeting, that the "Friends" is not necessarily the only group of people that can lay claim to salvation. (Paraphrased).I don't know if this is true or not, but it would be a start.
A decade or two of enlightenment among the next generation of the Church's history, God's work in other areas, and greater information on Biblical matters, rather than just the usual paraphrasing biblical verses and using them to reinforce the status quo, and I think the attitude of exclusivity will disappear.
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 18:46:28 GMT -5
Well Pragmatic , then we can say its not true that workers preach that......and if we feel that's what'simplied that often says more about how we see or don't see things than what is actually said. As I said you can see 'exclusivity' disappearing from all denominations and we should feel blessed by this rather than making a point of certain people still holding on to 'exclusive' thinking. It wasn't so long ago that Anglicans would stand on one side of a grave and the RCC's on the other, and prior to that they didn't even attend a funeral of another denomination. I can't speak for others, but I personally regularly meet with people of other denominations and have no problem saying amen to their prayers offered. I attended a Christian youth group as a child where we used to pray together and my parents were happy for me to go, since my mum is now in her 90's it can't be said that this is something new, but rather I was brought up to respect others beliefs, not to condemn. Before you tar everyone with the same brush, be mindful that we all must work out our own salvation, Gods work in lives is individual, the only names it has attached to it are ours and Jesus........saying amen to a prayer offered by another will not save us or condemn us.
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Post by joanna on Mar 6, 2017 18:56:38 GMT -5
Honest inquiry into religious exclusivism reveals an unsurprising theme. Religious groups tend to believe they are custodians of the ultimate 'truth'. I consider those of you who repeatedly accuse the 2x2s of being exclusive, which I agree they are, are being dishonest given your failure to acknowledge the exclusivity practiced by other religious groups, churches or whatever is the preferred term. A quick search revealed the following: The following four criteria for reunion are stipulated by the Anglican Church: * The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, ‘as containing all things necessary to salvation’, and as being the rule and ultimate standard of faith. * The Apostles Creed, the Baptismal Symbol; and the Nicene Creed, as the sufficient statement of the Christian faith. * The two Sacraments ordained by Christ himself - Baptism and the Supper of the Lord - ministered with the unfailing use of Christ’s words of institution, and of the elements ordained by him. * The historic Episcopate, locally adapted in the methods of its administration to the varying needs of the nations and peoples called of God into the unity of his Church. ReferenceTranslation: my way or the highway. Reading those criteria prompts a certain word. Crossword clue: ' restricted to the group concerned' ( 9 letters) "Something to declare" is a 35 page document intended to explain the Baptist faith. It covers the conception of this group, in the U.K. ( unsure of of the status of this group in the global Baptist scene) and includes the Declaration of Principle: The basis of this union is: 1) That the Lord Jesus Christ is the sole and absolute authority in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as revealed in the holy Scriptures, and that each Church has liberty to interpret and administer His Laws. 2) That Christian Baptism is the immersion in water into the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,
of those who have professed repentance towards God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ who “died for our
sins according to the Scriptures; was buried, and rose again the third day.”
3) That it is the duty of every disciple to bear witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and to take part in the evangelization of the world. "Baptism is then regarded as a decisive moment in the process of being saved, whenever the process of salvation actually began (See 1 Peter 3:21). " ReferenceBaptist doctrine: No baptism in a specific amount of water and after certain prerequisites = No salvation. Translation: my way or the highway. Crossword clue: 'restricted to the group concerned' ( 9 letters)
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Post by Pragmatic on Mar 6, 2017 19:30:47 GMT -5
I am well aware of the exclusive doctrine in other churches, and have been disgusted by that of the RCC in weddings, for example, what is required for "divided marriages". I don't see it to the same extent with the PBs, Methodist, Baptists or Anglicans, but then again haven't been subjected to it like in the RCC.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 6, 2017 19:41:41 GMT -5
I have never heard a worker preach that the work of God cannot occur outside the 'fellowship and ministry' of the '2x2's'!!!!! Ross.Bowden , If you've actually heard that preached please let me know when and where You may have heard a worker preach that the "work of God" can occur outside the 'fellowship and ministry' of the '2x2's' but that person will not be "saved" in any other "worldly" church by any "false prophet!"
They would have to be led to the *TRUTH,* *THE WAY* which is preached only by the "workers"!
PS: One worker, when was once invited to speak at a "worldly" church, preceded to tell the congregation that they were all[ "going to hell!"
PPS: I don't know how old you are, howitis, -but I was born & raised in the *TRUTH* and I have heard many, many times that no one would be "saved" outside of the *TRUTH* which was preached only by the workers.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 6, 2017 20:17:53 GMT -5
Hi jondough, what I'm trying to say is that there are many things that are said that people choose to take out of context. To a point Christianity is exclusive, we don't have a choice in that, think about it......Jesus said 'no man cometh to the Father, but by me', 'strait is the gate', 'upon this rock I will build my church'.....others eluded to exclusivity....'one faith, one Lord......'.....this isn't something we can pick and choose over.......so when workers say 'this is the way we need to walk', or 'Jesus way is the only way to heaven'.....that's what they are talking about..yes I know many have perhaps said that one must profess in a Gospel meeting....rah, rah, rah, and perhaps they believe that, but I think most are talking explicitly about the way of Jesus. It's interesting to note that now many of the other denominations are taking a lower key attitude to wearing robes, celebrations etc and are meeting in homes, having yearly gatherings or conventions.......and we all know once this wasn't the case, these denominations are also becoming 'less exclusive' than they once were as are the '2x2's' These are interesting times we are living in as we see God starting to draw His people to Himself as in the verse '...other sheep that I have, who are not of this fold, them also I must bring......' As for the workers preaching that 'Gods work cannot occur outside the fellowship and ministry of the '2x2's', I've certainly never heard that!! The real problem is that the workers believe that the 2x2 us Jesus' way. But that doesn't fit what Jesus said and that was that Jesus Is the way, the truth and the life. It cannot be watered down with some sect if religion being the same thing. The truth is that ONLY JESUS IS. THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE.
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Post by jondough on Mar 6, 2017 20:19:09 GMT -5
Hi jondough, what I'm trying to say is that there are many things that are said that people choose to take out of context. To a point Christianity is exclusive, we don't have a choice in that, think about it......Jesus said 'no man cometh to the Father, but by me', 'strait is the gate', 'upon this rock I will build my church'.....others eluded to exclusivity....'one faith, one Lord......'.....this isn't something we can pick and choose over.......so when workers say 'this is the way we need to walk', or 'Jesus way is the only way to heaven'.....that's what they are talking about..yes I know many have perhaps said that one must profess in a Gospel meeting....rah, rah, rah, and perhaps they believe that, but I think most are talking explicitly about the way of Jesus. It's interesting to note that now many of the other denominations are taking a lower key attitude to wearing robes, celebrations etc and are meeting in homes, having yearly gatherings or conventions.......and we all know once this wasn't the case, these denominations are also becoming 'less exclusive' than they once were as are the '2x2's' These are interesting times we are living in as we see God starting to draw His people to Himself as in the verse '...other sheep that I have, who are not of this fold, them also I must bring......' As for the workers preaching that 'Gods work cannot occur outside the fellowship and ministry of the '2x2's', I've certainly never heard that!! You are probably the only person professing that I know that has never heard this. I would LOVE it if it wasn't so, but it's still prevelant. We've heard it repeatedly from Nathan on this Board. Wally is "partially" exclusive - his words. I'm pretty sure Speak is exclusive. Wow...never heard this. Have you ever heard that we are the "one true way"?
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 20:32:10 GMT -5
Yet I've experienced the same Ross.Bowden, several times from both the RCC and Anglican churches right from when I was very young.......I think joanna is actually on to something when she says that those condemning others for being exclusive should look at themselves a little closer.
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 20:36:07 GMT -5
No I don't believe I've ever heard 'that God's work cannot be done outside the fellowship or ministry of the '2x2's'. Those words are inherently different to 'this way is the true way'!!
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Post by jondough on Mar 6, 2017 21:05:44 GMT -5
No I don't believe I've ever heard 'that God's work cannot be done outside the fellowship or ministry of the '2x2's'. Those words are inherently different to 'this way is the true way'!! Nathan actually at one point thought I should be ex-communicated because I was non-exclusive. He warned me that if I made these feeling known, that I would be gone. He uses the example of why John Long was excommunicated. He told me I would be ex-communicated like John Long for thinking this same way. Non-exclusive. Don't get me wrong now. I would love to believe that no one says this. Unfortunately its not the case. Like I've said before, we have become less exclusive. Mainly the younger generation. My mother is exclusive, so is both my mother and father in law. To say that there are others saved beyond the professing people, around them really upsets them. I have learned not to go there. In regards to This Way, yes it is THE true way, if you're referring to Christ. Our fellowship is not THE way. Christ is. I think you and I are on the same page on this. Just we are not the majority within our fellowship.
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 21:23:39 GMT -5
It's all ok jondough what it gets down to is word choices and how people have responded to those words down through time.....I am a person that was told my children aren't my husbands because we weren't married in the RCC so I feel exclusivity is something belonging to a lot of people in many denominations and has actually been pushed more by people than workers anyway. What I find interesting is, in talking to my English, Anglican minister friend, he has come to the belief that our church is indeed 'God's true way', but also acknowledges that people generally look for God in a church so churches 'play a part', in bringing an individual to God's way.....which is not so dissimilar to what people are saying the workers say.....I wonder if this thinking will infiltrate to other countries as time goes on......as I said interesting times!!
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 6, 2017 21:33:23 GMT -5
No I don't believe I've ever heard 'that God's work cannot be done outside the fellowship or ministry of the '2x2's'. Those words are inherently different to 'this way is the true way'!! Howitis, - you did say "I have never heard a worker preach that the work of God cannot occur outside the 'fellowship and ministry' of the '2x2's'!!!!!"
The workers most certainly did not believe that 'the work of God' could occur in any CHURCH outside the "fellowship and ministry' of the '2x2's!"
They might, and I think did believe that 'the work of God' could be done within the heart of a person, but never did I hear at any time that it could be due to the church that they were in!
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 22:07:42 GMT -5
It's all ok jondough what it gets down to is word choices and how people have responded to those words down through time.....I am a person that was told my children aren't my husbands because we weren't married in the RCC so I feel exclusivity is something belonging to a lot of people in many denominations and has actually been pushed more by people than workers anyway. What I find interesting is, in talking to my English, Anglican minister friend, he has come to the belief that our church is indeed 'God's true way', but also acknowledges that people generally look for God in a church so churches 'play a part', in bringing an individual to God's way.....which is not so dissimilar to what people are saying the workers say.....I wonder if this thinking will infiltrate to other countries as time goes on......as I said interesting times!! Has your Anglican minister friend been to gospel meetings or professed yet? I'm asking this seriously. Have you mentioned to him that the leaders of your church would regard him as not saved ie going to hell? unless he professes? The RCC has traditionally been very exclusive. I think their official line now is that others can be saved but they are not in the true mother church so to speak. I don't think I have to mention it, it appears he feels that way himself!!! He also feels that at present he is where God has placed him, but knows he won't be staying in that place. It's actually an amazing thing to witness. It has been a wonderful help to me, I've done nothing in all this, just listened and been a friend.
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Post by blandie on Mar 6, 2017 22:24:11 GMT -5
No I don't believe I've ever heard 'that God's work cannot be done outside the fellowship or ministry of the '2x2's'. Those words are inherently different to 'this way is the true way'!! I suggest that you learn to listen more carefully - it was a common theme by implication and directly and I really doubt that its changed at all over the last few years. They - today - do not believe in any other ministry nor any other method nor any other path to salvation than thru professing thru a worker and coming into the one true meetings fellowship. I know folks from all over and thats still believed. Here is what some overseer and senior worker 'brighter lights' of 2x2-ism have said on the subject from way back to fair recent times
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 23:08:25 GMT -5
Nambucca heads.......nice place and yes I think I may have been in that church too Ross.Bowden when we were visiting with rellies, not sure about Anglican churches up that way though, but its a bit sad you wouldn't think it so nice since you're Anglican too, but anyway that's your perrogative . Wonder if the '2x2's' think I'd like to go to that meeting, but not that one!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 6, 2017 23:09:19 GMT -5
Yet I've experienced the same Ross.Bowden, several times from both the RCC and Anglican churches right from when I was very young.......I think joanna is actually on to something when she says that those condemning others for being exclusive should look at themselves a little closer. Of course, Joanna would say that I'm just stating what I know from my experience to be a fact - it's nothing about condemnation I'm simply saying (in slightly longer form) that "Workers do not believe that God works in the hearts of people outside of their fellowship where those people continue to fellowship and worship with other Christians". Suggest you ask your local Head Worker or other senior workers in this state - we both know them well. Ask them whether they believe that all those folk who have left their fellowship over the last 20 years who are Christians now fellowshipping in other churches are in the body of Christ? Ask them whether it's possible for a minister in another church to lead a person to Christ....and for that person to be saved by God through hearing the Word preached by another minister? I recently attached to another post a tract on baptism which some workers have handed out in New South Wales over the years. The last para gives people a clear insight into how they think. "The authority to baptise was given to only one type of ministry. The ones to whom Jesus gave this authority in Matthew 28: 16-20 were men who had been willing to follow Jesus in His way. This is very important. No minister can bring you into anything more than what he has. The wrong kind of preacher, even though he may baptise by immersion, can only bring a person into the church of which he himself is a part of. On the other hand when a person is baptised by a minister who is in fellowship with Jesus, he shares with them that same pure fellowship that he is enjoying". This clearly indicates: - the workers believe they have the only true ministry on earth and can only bring a person into fellowship with Jesus - other ministers, the type who are the "wrong kind of preacher", cannot bring you into fellowship with Jesus - other ministers can only bring you into their church, not into fellowship with Jesus The funny part about the tract is that the workers tend to overstate their role and position just a tad. It would be nice if they put themselves totally in the background, rather than the foreground. It's not about them sharing their fellowship. It's about Jesus and His relationship with the person who has said "yes" to Him that should be focused on. There still are many friends and workers that look to the workers when they should be looking to Christ. The workers have "sacrificed" so much that it's thought they are the one true ministry. These people do not pause and consider the sacrifice Jesus gave is the sacrifice they need to be looking to and being thankful for. Actually it's a form of worshipping the workers hip and/or the workers. It is frightening when one thinks about what Jesus is going to ask of such instances. It is not healthy to put humans that high on a pedestal for nothing good can come of it.
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 23:18:11 GMT -5
Totally agree sharingtheriches I know some people put the workers on a pedestal I also think many workers are embarrassed by it. I think too that is a very old practice that was apparent in many denominations. We all need to focus on Christ, it's when our focus shifts that we end up hurting ourselves or others. There is nothing wrong with having a love for the workers as we would other brothers and sisters that love God.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 6, 2017 23:45:00 GMT -5
Yes, I have joked about being 'Al the Baptist', but that's just being a smarty-pants and a play on words.
My wife and I would say we are simply Christians, or Christ-followers.
By the way, we are meeting with a bunch of other Christians in our home this evening to discuss John 1!
Yes, it's a coincidence, not prompted by any discussions on here. So we will gather around the written word to discuss the Living Word, and the Word who is God. Praise Him!
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Post by howitis on Mar 6, 2017 23:45:05 GMT -5
Nambucca heads.......nice place and yes I think I may have been in that church too Ross.Bowden when we were visiting with rellies, not sure about Anglican churches up that way though, but its a bit sad you wouldn't think it so nice since you're Anglican too, but anyway that's your perrogative . Wonder if the '2x2's' think I'd like to go to that meeting, but not that one! Ha - I've never thought myself as an Anglican - just a Christian. People are so into labels.... Maybe you're not, and yes people do.....was in a cemetery just the other day and it seems that even in death we are given a little plot with a 'tag' on it...I know this is very important to some people......which 'portion' they will be buried in. But seriously think about it, you attend an Anglican church at st ives, but wouldn't recommend one on the North coast of NSW, don't those people consider themselves Christian too......it seems the ex '2x2's' have this thing about how 'exclusive' the '2x2's' are yet.....
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