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Post by elizabethcoleman on Oct 27, 2016 5:23:55 GMT -5
The true story of Pfc. Desmond T. Doss, who won the Congressional Medal of Honor despite refusing to bear arms during WWII on religious grounds.
A very thought-inspiring movie of a man standing firm in his faith and convictions. I personally disagree with not bearing arms in this context, but also understand that Doss's conviction was more about a vow he made to God in his youth than dogmatic pacifism.
Other thoughts?
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Post by vanillagorilla on Oct 27, 2016 17:00:46 GMT -5
What this guy did was beyond words. I am against not carrying a weapon in combat. But this guy.. he get no criticism from me!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2016 17:26:43 GMT -5
i'll give him credit for standing by his convictions but really the movie is just another anti-war and anti-gun film to me...i had a distant cousin of mine be a CO and he was murdered for it in training camp during WWI or WWII....
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 27, 2016 19:26:56 GMT -5
i'll give him credit for standing by his convictions but really the movie is just another anti-war and anti-gun film to me...i had a distant cousin of mine be a CO and he was murdered for it in training camp during WWI or WWII.... Well of course it is "anti-war" as in following the "commandment against killing another person." So if you claim to be a Christian, are you following Jesus commandment or not?
Luke 10:27 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Oct 27, 2016 21:26:48 GMT -5
i'll give him credit for standing by his convictions but really the movie is just another anti-war and anti-gun film to me...i had a distant cousin of mine be a CO and he was murdered for it in training camp during WWI or WWII.... Well of course it is "anti-war" as in following the "commandment against killing another person." So if you claim to be a Christian, are you following Jesus commandment or not?
Luke 10:27 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
I doubt there are many Christians who are complete pacifists. War is a fact of life, as seen in the history of man (and the Old Testament). From our Judaeo Christian heritage we see the main principles as: 1) Men are not to kill each other (which is a personal decision based on personal motive); but 2) Governments bear the sword with authority (they have authority to rule/execute for just cause/declare war when necessary). For this reason, under law, we are not permitted to carry out personal revenge against those who wrong us (personal revenge), but leave it to the justice system (corporate justice under government). I think it would be more worthwhile to watch the film before commenting on this particular thread, though. There were specific reasons Doss chose his pacifist stance here, and it was based on a personal vow to God due to his own history and circumstances, rather than any Biblical justification. I think we see here God honouring a man who honoured his vow.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Oct 27, 2016 21:29:35 GMT -5
i'll give him credit for standing by his convictions but really the movie is just another anti-war and anti-gun film to me...i had a distant cousin of mine be a CO and he was murdered for it in training camp during WWI or WWII.... I'm truly sorry this happened to your distant cousin, Wally. There is no excuse for treating people badly for their deeply held convictions.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 27, 2016 23:23:02 GMT -5
Well of course it is "anti-war" as in following the "commandment against killing another person." So if you claim to be a Christian, are you following Jesus commandment or not?
Luke 10:27 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
I doubt there are many Christians who are complete pacifists. War is a fact of life, as seen in the history of man (and the Old Testament). From our Judaeo Christian heritage we see the main principles as: 1) Men are not to kill each other (which is a personal decision based on personal motive); but 2) Governments bear the sword with authority (they have authority to rule/execute for just cause/declare war when necessary). For this reason, under law, we are not permitted to carry out personal revenge against those who wrong us (personal revenge), but leave it to the justice system (corporate justice under government). I think it would be more worthwhile to watch the film before commenting on this particular thread, though. There were specific reasons Doss chose his pacifist stance here, and it was based on a personal vow to God due to his own history and circumstances, rather than any Biblical justification. I think we see here God honouring a man who honoured his vow. This is the same kind of excuse that I see people use all the time to work around and do the opposite of what they claim to believe, -such as the commandments of Christianity!
At the same time they will use all kinds of rationalizations to insist that THEIR GOD of the testament was a god of LOVE! It doesn't matter that THEIR GOD ordered genocide on whole tribes of people!
They will defend HIS right to do so using all kinds of excuses to defend HIM!
The whole point is that they refuse to see that WARRIOR GOD of the OLD Testament was a god they created THEMSELVES!
That is what I find reprehensible. Just be honest about what one is doing and quit trying to bring a god into the equation!
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Oct 27, 2016 23:31:41 GMT -5
I doubt there are many Christians who are complete pacifists. War is a fact of life, as seen in the history of man (and the Old Testament). From our Judaeo Christian heritage we see the main principles as: 1) Men are not to kill each other (which is a personal decision based on personal motive); but 2) Governments bear the sword with authority (they have authority to rule/execute for just cause/declare war when necessary). For this reason, under law, we are not permitted to carry out personal revenge against those who wrong us (personal revenge), but leave it to the justice system (corporate justice under government). I think it would be more worthwhile to watch the film before commenting on this particular thread, though. There were specific reasons Doss chose his pacifist stance here, and it was based on a personal vow to God due to his own history and circumstances, rather than any Biblical justification. I think we see here God honouring a man who honoured his vow. This is the same kind of excuse that I see people use all the time to work around and do the opposite of what they claim to believe, -such as the commandments of Christianity!
At the same time they will use all kinds of rationalizations to insist that THEIR GOD of the testament was a god of LOVE! It doesn't matter that THEIR GOD ordered genocide on whole tribes of people!
They will defend HIS right to do so using all kinds of excuses to defend HIM!
The whole point is that they refuse to see that WARRIOR GOD of the OLD Testament was a god they created THEMSELVES!
That is what I find reprehensible. Just be honest about what one is doing and quit trying to bring a god into the equation!
I'm sorry, I can't figure out which part of what I said you disagree with. Are you saying that only Christians shouldn't kill, or nobody should kill? (in the context of war).
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 28, 2016 7:16:49 GMT -5
i'll give him credit for standing by his convictions but really the movie is just another anti-war and anti-gun film to me...i had a distant cousin of mine be a CO and he was murdered for it in training camp during WWI or WWII.... That's terrible! Was he a professing Friend?
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 28, 2016 14:35:53 GMT -5
This is the same kind of excuse that I see people use all the time to work around and do the opposite of what they claim to believe, -such as the commandments of Christianity!
At the same time they will use all kinds of rationalizations to insist that THEIR GOD of the testament was a god of LOVE! It doesn't matter that THEIR GOD ordered genocide on whole tribes of people!
They will defend HIS right to do so using all kinds of excuses to defend HIM!
The whole point is that they refuse to see that WARRIOR GOD of the OLD Testament was a god they created THEMSELVES!
That is what I find reprehensible. Just be honest about what one is doing and quit trying to bring a god into the equation!
I'm sorry, I can't figure out which part of what I said you disagree with. Are you saying that only Christians shouldn't kill, or nobody should kill? (in the context of war). I should think that it is quite plain what I meant.
Try this; IF you profess to be a Christian, how can you ignore the second commandment of Jesus?
"To love your brother as yourself."
So how can one rationalize killing "your brother" by going to war against your brother?
You just can't have it both ways.
I see Christians very adept at rationalizations when it comes to suiting what they want to do.
You also stated that , "War is a fact of life, as seen in the history of man (and the Old Testament). "
My point is that you also rationalize the actions of your own god of the old testament.
People do not understand that that "war god" of the old testament was created by the people to do what they wanted to do. They recreated HIM not HIM creating them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 17:43:42 GMT -5
i'll give him credit for standing by his convictions but really the movie is just another anti-war and anti-gun film to me...i had a distant cousin of mine be a CO and he was murdered for it in training camp during WWI or WWII.... That's terrible! Was he a professing Friend? yes he was professing...
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Oct 29, 2016 7:00:45 GMT -5
I should think that it is quite plain what I meant.
Try this; IF you profess to be a Christian, how can you ignore the second commandment of Jesus?
"To love your brother as yourself."
So how can one rationalize killing "your brother" by going to war against your brother?
You just can't have it both ways.
I see Christians very adept at rationalizations when it comes to suiting what they want to do.
You also stated that , "War is a fact of life, as seen in the history of man (and the Old Testament). "
My point is that you also rationalize the actions of your own god of the old testament.
People do not understand that that "war god" of the old testament was created by the people to do what they wanted to do. They recreated HIM not HIM creating them.
Who is my brother/neighbour? When asked this question, Jesus quoted the story of the good Samaritan, who went to the assistance of one in need, who had been attacked. Loving our brother means protecting and defending those who are attacked, does it not?
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 29, 2016 12:37:13 GMT -5
I should think that it is quite plain what I meant.
Try this; IF you profess to be a Christian, how can you ignore the second commandment of Jesus?
"To love your brother as yourself."
So how can one rationalize killing "your brother" by going to war against your brother?
You just can't have it both ways.
I see Christians very adept at rationalizations when it comes to suiting what they want to do.
You also stated that , "War is a fact of life, as seen in the history of man (and the Old Testament). "
My point is that you also rationalize the actions of your own god of the old testament.
People do not understand that that "war god" of the old testament was created by the people to do what they wanted to do. They recreated HIM not HIM creating them.
Who is my brother/neighbour? When asked this question, Jesus quoted the story of the good Samaritan, who went to the assistance of one in need, who had been attacked. Loving our brother means protecting and defending those who are attacked, does it not? True, - but after you help the one that was had been attacked like Jesus said to do, Jesus DID NOT tell people to go out & kill the ones who had robbed the man.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Oct 29, 2016 22:57:31 GMT -5
Who is my brother/neighbour? When asked this question, Jesus quoted the story of the good Samaritan, who went to the assistance of one in need, who had been attacked. Loving our brother means protecting and defending those who are attacked, does it not? True, - but after you help the one that was had been attacked like Jesus said to do, Jesus DID NOT tell people to go out & kill the ones who had robbed the man.
Well, yes, obviously. Do you think I'm in danger of going out and killing someone? Do you think many of us are? Of course there's a clear commandment not to kill for personal motive, one which I wholeheartedly believe and endorse. This would extend to opposing abortion and euthanasia. But again, the command not to kill is part of our Christian heritage, which we take for granted. In many other cultures they do go and kill for personal motive - revenge, honour killings, etc. You will find little justice for such events in some countries, because that is their accepted way of life. But the command not to kill has always been a constant message of the Bible - no killing of others by personal decision/for personal motive. Only the government (corporate) has the right to bear the sword. You seem unable to make the distinction between (personal) murder and (corporate) war. Do you understand the difference? Do I appreciate those who went to war on my behalf to defend my country and our values? Do I appreciate those who laid down their life for me so that I could live in freedom? Of course I do! Don't you?
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 30, 2016 0:45:35 GMT -5
True, - but after you help the one that was had been attacked like Jesus said to do, Jesus DID NOT tell people to go out & kill the ones who had robbed the man.
Well, yes, obviously. Do you think I'm in danger of going out and killing someone? Do you think many of us are? Of course there's a clear commandment not to kill for personal motive, one which I wholeheartedly believe and endorse. This would extend to opposing abortion and euthanasia. But again, the command not to kill is part of our Christian heritage, which we take for granted. In many other cultures they do go and kill for personal motive - revenge, honour killings, etc. You will find little justice for such events in some countries, because that is their accepted way of life. But the command not to kill has always been a constant message of the Bible - no killing of others by personal decision/for personal motive. Only the government (corporate) has the right to bear the sword. You seem unable to make the distinction between (personal) murder and (corporate) war. Do you understand the difference?Do I appreciate those who went to war on my behalf to defend my country and our values? Do I appreciate those who laid down their life for me so that I could live in freedom? Of course I do! Don't you? It doesn't do Christianity any favors to try & compare it with other religions.
You can't claim the command not to kill as being the "constant message" in the Bible! In fact, it is ludicrous !
The bible is one of the bloodiest "sacred" books there is!
(and Please don't patronize me by saying: "You seem unable to make the distinction between (personal) murder and (corporate) war. "Do you understand the difference?" I believe that have done more thinking on the subject than apparently you have indicated by your posts.) It is the kind of thinking that you and others use which keeps mankind forever killing one another instead of trying to work out their problems in a different manner. I know a lot of people who understand that and don't need an religion to convince them.
I maintain that if anyone wants to claim being a Christian and follower of Jesus, -they need to follow his commandments.
My husband believed that and he was a conscientious objector during WWII He also professed until his death at 90 +.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Oct 30, 2016 6:34:17 GMT -5
Well, yes, obviously. Do you think I'm in danger of going out and killing someone? Do you think many of us are? Of course there's a clear commandment not to kill for personal motive, one which I wholeheartedly believe and endorse. This would extend to opposing abortion and euthanasia. But again, the command not to kill is part of our Christian heritage, which we take for granted. In many other cultures they do go and kill for personal motive - revenge, honour killings, etc. You will find little justice for such events in some countries, because that is their accepted way of life. But the command not to kill has always been a constant message of the Bible - no killing of others by personal decision/for personal motive. Only the government (corporate) has the right to bear the sword. You seem unable to make the distinction between (personal) murder and (corporate) war. Do you understand the difference?Do I appreciate those who went to war on my behalf to defend my country and our values? Do I appreciate those who laid down their life for me so that I could live in freedom? Of course I do! Don't you? It doesn't do Christianity any favors to try & compare it with other religions.
You can't claim the command not to kill as being the "constant message" in the Bible! In fact, it is ludicrous !
The bible is one of the bloodiest "sacred" books there is!
(and Please don't patronize me by saying: "You seem unable to make the distinction between (personal) murder and (corporate) war. "Do you understand the difference?" I believe that have done more thinking on the subject than apparently you have indicated by your posts.) It is the kind of thinking that you and others use which keeps mankind forever killing one another instead of trying to work out their problems in a different manner. I know a lot of people who understand that and don't need an religion to convince them.
I maintain that if anyone wants to claim being a Christian and follower of Jesus, -they need to follow his commandments.
My husband believed that and he was a conscientious objector during WWII He also professed until his death at 90 +.Well, when you convince everyone (like ISIS) to stop killing innocents, let me know. How's it working for you so far? If you were president of your country, would you dismantle your military force and leave yourself and your country defenceless? It's not a matter of convincing the good guys, dmmichigood. It's a matter of convincing everyone, including the bad guys. I'm not going to condemn any person who is a CO - they act according to their own conscience. But neither am I going to condemn any person for being willing to lay down their life for others in the line of duty when necessary. I think Jesus had something to say about that too. Your separation of the God of the Old Testament and Jesus doesn't stand up theologically. You cannot accept one without accepting the other. Jesus' own words, many times over, confirms this. You'll have to do more thinking on this subject.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 30, 2016 17:47:49 GMT -5
It doesn't do Christianity any favors to try & compare it with other religions.
You can't claim the command not to kill as being the "constant message" in the Bible! In fact, it is ludicrous !
The bible is one of the bloodiest "sacred" books there is!
(and Please don't patronize me by saying: "You seem unable to make the distinction between (personal) murder and (corporate) war. "Do you understand the difference?" I believe that have done more thinking on the subject than apparently you have indicated by your posts.) It is the kind of thinking that you and others use which keeps mankind forever killing one another instead of trying to work out their problems in a different manner. I know a lot of people who understand that and don't need an religion to convince them.
I maintain that if anyone wants to claim being a Christian and follower of Jesus, -they need to follow his commandments.
My husband believed that and he was a conscientious objector during WWII He also professed until his death at 90 +. Well, when you convince everyone (like ISIS) to stop killing innocents, let me know. How's it working for you so far?
If you were president of your country, would you dismantle your military force and leave yourself and your country defenceless?
It's not a matter of convincing the good guys, dmmichigood. It's a matter of convincing everyone, including the bad guys.
I'm not going to condemn any person who is a CO - they act according to their own conscience. But neither am I going to condemn any person for being willing to lay down their life for others in the line of duty when necessary. I think Jesus had something to say about that too.
Your separation of the God of the Old Testament and Jesus doesn't stand up theologically. You cannot accept one without accepting the other. Jesus' own words, many times over, confirms this. You'll have to do more thinking on this subject. My dear, ( patronizing intended) Perhaps it is you who could do "more thinking on this subject."
I am 84 and I have been through and seen a lot of things in my life time.
One thing I learned is that we have to look at the basis for a lot of ideas. One is that we have to look at the basis reasons for conflict in the world.
It goes way back to the time when mankind settled down from hunting and gathering to agriculture society. There had not been the need for people to allot the resources of the world before then.
However, an agricultural society meant that by settling in one spot it required that they "owned" a certain area of land. Then that area of land had to be protected.
The resources needed for life needed to be distributed in some kind of equal fashion in order to support a thriving community. They also needed protection from outside roving tribes.
They have done this basically by killing off other peoples to protect and provide for their own. It explains the reason for the creation of a God of War in the OT by those people in their day.
They needed the land and they had their god tell them it was perfectly alright to kill everyone, women & children as well, in order to attain the land.
That is mankind's history.
But until we realize that just killing one another off is not only immoral but it doesn't work very well because it only provides a further incentive to create more violence in the people we fight against.
The result is that some people who even claim to be Christians or adherents to other religions will continue to rationalize the supposed need for war and attempt to defend our actions.
Violence only begets more violence. PERIOD.
Even though we have made some progress along that line, we certainly have a long way to go.
It takes someone of vision to step into the gap and say enough is enough! No doubt Jesus was one of those who did step into that gap. Never-the-less, remember , -Jesus was NOT the first nor the last!
I happen to know personally many of those people who are willing to take a stand & step into that gap to remind others that there is, or least there should be, -a different way to settle disputes over resources.
My husband was one of those people.
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Post by Lee on Oct 30, 2016 18:05:50 GMT -5
Clearly the answer is abortion. This is a non violent way to end all of the reasons weve ever gone to war. I mean think about it. No people. No war. Easy peasy. Who would have thought of this if it hadnt been for Marie and her late husband?
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 30, 2016 18:50:31 GMT -5
Clearly the answer is abortion. This is a non violent way to end all of the reasons weve ever gone to war. I mean think about it. No people. No war. Easy peasy. Who would have thought of this if it hadnt been for Marie and her late husband? Just leave it to Lee to distort all reason!But then, that has been typical of Lee all along hasn't it? Can't seem to dig any deeper than his own inane thoughts.
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Post by Lee on Nov 4, 2016 11:07:57 GMT -5
Michael Medved gave a good review of this film. Also of the movie I Am Not Ashamed about a Columbine victim who lived an extroardinary life.
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Post by Lee on Nov 5, 2016 21:47:08 GMT -5
I saw the film last night. Im glad to see mel gibson is still making films after the passion. He was hated for that for presenting jews too ugly but personally, i didnt have a problem with it. In this film we have political incorrectness with reference to japs. Guess its politically incorrect to identify with a nation or race these days Im not sure why. Desmond trumped it all with his CO appeal to be a medic. "Whats wrong with saving people when the world is tearing itself apart". Kudos mel gibson.
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Post by vanillagorilla on Aug 14, 2017 12:25:56 GMT -5
I finally saw this movie. It will be on my mind for a long, long time. Showing commentary from the man himself at the end of the movie was also moving. What an amazing story
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Post by snow on Aug 14, 2017 14:31:39 GMT -5
Well of course it is "anti-war" as in following the "commandment against killing another person." So if you claim to be a Christian, are you following Jesus commandment or not?
Luke 10:27 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
I doubt there are many Christians who are complete pacifists. War is a fact of life, as seen in the history of man (and the Old Testament). From our Judaeo Christian heritage we see the main principles as: 1) Men are not to kill each other (which is a personal decision based on personal motive); but 2) Governments bear the sword with authority (they have authority to rule/execute for just cause/declare war when necessary). For this reason, under law, we are not permitted to carry out personal revenge against those who wrong us (personal revenge), but leave it to the justice system (corporate justice under government). I think it would be more worthwhile to watch the film before commenting on this particular thread, though. There were specific reasons Doss chose his pacifist stance here, and it was based on a personal vow to God due to his own history and circumstances, rather than any Biblical justification. I think we see here God honouring a man who honoured his vow. Well isn't that an interesting way of getting around the whole 'do not kill' thing. I guess it's not okay for xians to kill their neighbor so if they just feel the need to kill something they can just find a war where killing is justified according to the bible. I think he was admirable to stand by his convictions. He actually knew what the commandment meant I guess.
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Post by snow on Aug 14, 2017 14:34:45 GMT -5
i'll give him credit for standing by his convictions but really the movie is just another anti-war and anti-gun film to me...i had a distant cousin of mine be a CO and he was murdered for it in training camp during WWI or WWII.... That's terrible! Was he a professing Friend? You sound like you're still professing there Cherie. That's the first words out of their mouth when there is a disaster somewhere. Were any of the friends hurt?
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Post by snow on Aug 14, 2017 14:38:59 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I can't figure out which part of what I said you disagree with. Are you saying that only Christians shouldn't kill, or nobody should kill? (in the context of war). I should think that it is quite plain what I meant.
Try this; IF you profess to be a Christian, how can you ignore the second commandment of Jesus?
"To love your brother as yourself."
So how can one rationalize killing "your brother" by going to war against your brother?
You just can't have it both ways.
I see Christians very adept at rationalizations when it comes to suiting what they want to do.
You also stated that , "War is a fact of life, as seen in the history of man (and the Old Testament). "
My point is that you also rationalize the actions of your own god of the old testament.
People do not understand that that "war god" of the old testament was created by the people to do what they wanted to do. They recreated HIM not HIM creating them.
Exactly. That's how religions evolve though. The cherry picking of the century gets the focus? I had never heard the term 'warrior Christian' before, but apparently there are a lot of them and my sister in law is one of them. Another term I have heard is 'militant Christian'. All through history Christians have been killing others. They have always justified it one way or the other. If you want to be part of a religion where you can do anything and still have God's blessing, Christianity meets that wholeheartedly. Their god is the Hebrew God of War and he acts like it through the whole bible.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 14, 2017 14:39:47 GMT -5
That's terrible! Was he a professing Friend? You sound like you're still professing there Cherie. That's the first words out of their mouth when there is a disaster somewhere. Were any of the friends hurt? I ask bcs I keep a list of murdered Friends and Workers... I get tired of people saying something sounds like what the exes say; or it sounds like what 2x2s would say. Nnearly every comment under the sun has been said by someone before or is commonly said in some group or the other...or is similar in attitude to something else--so what? Proves nothing...just that similarities exist and very few things are unique.
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Post by snow on Aug 14, 2017 14:50:47 GMT -5
You sound like you're still professing there Cherie. That's the first words out of their mouth when there is a disaster somewhere. Were any of the friends hurt? I ask bcs I keep a list of murdered Friends and Workers... I get tired of people saying something sounds like what the exes say; or it sounds like what 2x2s would say. Nnearly every comment under the sun has been said by someone before or is commonly said in some group or the other...or is similar in attitude to something else--so what? Proves nothing...just that similarities exist and very few things are unique. Don't worry, I do the same thing. I agree actually, I was teasing you.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 16, 2017 3:47:34 GMT -5
The true story of Pfc. Desmond T. Doss, who won the Congressional Medal of Honor despite refusing to bear arms during WWII on religious grounds. A very thought-inspiring movie of a man standing firm in his faith and convictions. I personally disagree with not bearing arms in this context, but also understand that Doss's conviction was more about a vow he made to God in his youth than dogmatic pacifism. Other thoughts? What an amazingly strong man in God Desmond was. I don't care what denomination he was, I know that he was of God and God was with him. The film was great, and showed us what it is to have true faith in God. Go out and care not for ourselves but for others first and leave our lives in Gods hands. Desmond proved that God exists. I love it that he was even willing to help his wounded enemy. This is the true love of God, love and not hate, heal and not kill and always be ready to forgive. And by the power of the Spirit we can overcome.
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