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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 20, 2016 22:30:16 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 22:34:06 GMT -5
without Christ its all in vain...
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 20, 2016 23:08:59 GMT -5
without Christ its all in vain... According to Ecclesiastes "All is vanity." Of course, he didn't believe in "Christ".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 23:14:23 GMT -5
without Christ its all in vain... According to Ecclesiastes "All is vanity." Of course, he didn't believe in "Christ". The Greek translation of Messiah is khristos...its all the same
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 20, 2016 23:25:12 GMT -5
According to Ecclesiastes "All is vanity." Of course, he didn't believe in "Christ". The Greek translation of Messiah is khristos...its all the same I know, Wally, and the Greeks got it wrong. What difference does it make anyway, the writer of Ecclesiastes probably never heard of either Greeks or christs.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 20, 2016 23:57:31 GMT -5
According to Ecclesiastes "All is vanity." Of course, he didn't believe in "Christ". The Greek translation of Messiah is khristos...its all the same Yes I agree, and both mean anointed, Jesus was anointed with the holy spirit and he had full strength of the spirit. You only have to read the gospels to see that. He had more wisdom and understanding than anyone ever has. His answers to questions, his preaching and his parables are amazing. You don't get these things from man, you get them from God. He was fully anointed of God, he is the Messiah. And those that love him and follow him will be the true Jews, who are circumcised of the heart!
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 21, 2016 2:09:56 GMT -5
The Greek translation of Messiah is khristos...its all the same Yes I agree, and both mean anointed, Jesus was anointed with the holy spirit and he had full strength of the spirit. You only have to read the gospels to see that. He had more wisdom and understanding than anyone ever has. His answers to questions, his preaching and his parables are amazing. You don't get these things from man, you get them from God. He was fully anointed of God, he is the Messiah. And those that love him and follow him will be the true Jews, who are circumcised of the heart! You agree, but you really don't really know what either word means precisely. The word "messiah" absolutely does not mean "Christ" -- no matter what the Roman church wanted it meant to. A "messiah" is a Hebrew word, and it does mean "anointed one", a MAN chosen by God to perform good for the children of Israel. Every king in Israel was a messiah, even the Persian king because he facilitated the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The "Great Messiah" was, and still is, anticipated, specifically to deliver the nation of Israel from foreign domination. The Jews NEVER NEVER believed he would save them from their sins -- it makes absolutely no sense. The Jews did not, and do not, (1) believe in the doctrine of original sin, thus no original sin to be saved from. They did not (2) believe humans had souls separate from their human body, when a corpse rotted there was nothing more of him. They did not (3) believe in an afterlife. When they were dead that was the end of him. They did not (4) believe humans ever went to places like the Christian hell or heaven. They considered themselves God's chosen people and considered it blasphemy to even think of God having a son, or a holy spirit whispering in their ear. If you don't believe me, I have a few EXTREMELY devout Jewish relatives and friendly rabbis who will assure you that is absolutely correct. A "christ" (lower-case) was a Greek/Pagan child conceived by a coupling between a deity and a human woman. The child's purpose in life was to teach people how to prepare themselves to be able to ascend to the home of the gods. These christs, when they dies, were normally buried, then rose from their graves to return to their father/god in the realm of the gods. I know all the scripture you can possibly quote to claim this isn't so, but I'm sure you have no interest in spending the time to learn about this. I made not a word of it up, and there are volumes of professional writings to back it up. One way to verify this would be to consult the Vatican library -- the place where they keep all the "facts" they didn't want the people to know. Paul, you remember, was a Hellenistic Jew who did indeed disagree with the 12 disciples.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2016 2:22:44 GMT -5
Yes I agree, and both mean anointed, Jesus was anointed with the holy spirit and he had full strength of the spirit. You only have to read the gospels to see that. He had more wisdom and understanding than anyone ever has. His answers to questions, his preaching and his parables are amazing. You don't get these things from man, you get them from God. He was fully anointed of God, he is the Messiah. And those that love him and follow him will be the true Jews, who are circumcised of the heart! You agree, but you really don't really know what either word means precisely. The word "messiah" absolutely does not mean "Christ" -- no matter what the Roman church wanted it meant to. A "messiah" is a Hebrew word, and it does mean "anointed one", a MAN chosen by God to perform good for the children of Israel. Every king in Israel was a messiah, even the Persian king because he facilitated the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The "Great Messiah" was, and still is, anticipated, specifically to deliver the nation of Israel from foreign domination. The Jews NEVER NEVER believed he would save them from their sins -- it makes absolutely no sense. The Jews did not, and do not, (1) believe in the doctrine of original sin, thus no original sin to be saved from. They did not (2) believe humans had souls separate from their human body, when a corpse rotted there was nothing more of him. They did not (3) believe in an afterlife. When they were dead that was the end of him. They did not (4) believe humans ever went to places like the Christian hell or heaven. They considered themselves God's chosen people and considered it blasphemy to even think of God having a son, or a holy spirit whispering in their ear. If you don't believe me, I have a few EXTREMELY devout Jewish relatives and friendly rabbis who will assure you that is absolutely correct. A "christ" (lower-case) was a Greek/Pagan child conceived by a coupling between a deity and a human woman. The child's purpose in life was to teach people how to prepare themselves to be able to ascend to the home of the gods. These christs, when they dies, were normally buried, then rose from their graves to return to their father/god in the realm of the gods. I know all the scripture you can possibly quote to claim this isn't so, but I'm sure you have no interest in spending the time to learn about this. I made not a word of it up, and there are volumes of professional writings to back it up. One way to verify this would be to consult the Vatican library -- the place where they keep all the "facts" they didn't want the people to know. Paul, you remember, was a Hellenistic Jew who did indeed disagree with the 12 disciples. I find what you are saying about the Jews really interesting! So do all Jews believe there is no afterlife? Also, you have to remember that I'm not a mainstream Christian. I've never heard of the term "original sin" until I'm came here. Although we do talk about the sin of Adam in our meeting. What do the Jews believe about Adam? Thanks for answering. Oh and do they believe in the spirit? Thanks
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2016 3:00:09 GMT -5
The Greek translation of Messiah is khristos...its all the same Yes I agree, and both mean anointed, Jesus was anointed with the holy spirit and he had full strength of the spirit. You only have to read the gospels to see that. He had more wisdom and understanding than anyone ever has. His answers to questions, his preaching and his parables are amazing. You don't get these things from man, you get them from God. He was fully anointed of God, he is the Messiah. And those that love him and follow him will be the true Jews, who are circumcised of the heart! Actually, those things did come from man. The came from the gospel writers of which at least two copied from other gospel writers, -none of which probably even knew Jesus.
Aesop's Fables are also amazing glimpses of how mankind acts.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2016 3:09:09 GMT -5
Yes I agree, and both mean anointed, Jesus was anointed with the holy spirit and he had full strength of the spirit. You only have to read the gospels to see that. He had more wisdom and understanding than anyone ever has. His answers to questions, his preaching and his parables are amazing. You don't get these things from man, you get them from God. He was fully anointed of God, he is the Messiah. And those that love him and follow him will be the true Jews, who are circumcised of the heart! You agree, but you really don't really know what either word means precisely. The word "messiah" absolutely does not mean "Christ" -- no matter what the Roman church wanted it meant to. A "messiah" is a Hebrew word, and it does mean "anointed one", a MAN chosen by God to perform good for the children of Israel. Every king in Israel was a messiah, even the Persian king because he facilitated the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The "Great Messiah" was, and still is, anticipated, specifically to deliver the nation of Israel from foreign domination. The Jews NEVER NEVER believed he would save them from their sins -- it makes absolutely no sense. The Jews did not, and do not, (1) believe in the doctrine of original sin, thus no original sin to be saved from. They did not (2) believe humans had souls separate from their human body, when a corpse rotted there was nothing more of him. They did not (3) believe in an afterlife. When they were dead that was the end of him. They did not (4) believe humans ever went to places like the Christian hell or heaven. They considered themselves God's chosen people and considered it blasphemy to even think of God having a son, or a holy spirit whispering in their ear. If you don't believe me, I have a few EXTREMELY devout Jewish relatives and friendly rabbis who will assure you that is absolutely correct. A "christ" (lower-case) was a Greek/Pagan child conceived by a coupling between a deity and a human woman. The child's purpose in life was to teach people how to prepare themselves to be able to ascend to the home of the gods. These christs, when they dies, were normally buried, then rose from their graves to return to their father/god in the realm of the gods. I know all the scripture you can possibly quote to claim this isn't so, but I'm sure you have no interest in spending the time to learn about this. I made not a word of it up, and there are volumes of professional writings to back it up. One way to verify this would be to consult the Vatican library -- the place where they keep all the "facts" they didn't want the people to know. Paul, you remember, was a Hellenistic Jew who did indeed disagree with the 12 disciples. It says here that the Jewish people believe in an afterlife www.jewfaq.org/m/olamhaba.htmAnd if they don't believe that the Messiah has already come, what purpose can he bring if there is no afterlife? What about all the Jews in the past who have died never knowing him. And why believe in God who is a spirit, if we just die and we aren't with him when we do. Why pray to God if they don't believe that he can let their spirit live on when they leave this flesh? Why believe in a God who clearly has a spirit, yet created man to live and die on this world for no purpose, it makes no sense! I believe that God is spirit, and I know that have a spirit that lives in this flesh. I know that when I leave this body my spirit goes on. But I leave where to in Gods hands and I don't worry about it.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2016 3:14:27 GMT -5
Yes I agree, and both mean anointed, Jesus was anointed with the holy spirit and he had full strength of the spirit. You only have to read the gospels to see that. He had more wisdom and understanding than anyone ever has. His answers to questions, his preaching and his parables are amazing. You don't get these things from man, you get them from God. He was fully anointed of God, he is the Messiah. And those that love him and follow him will be the true Jews, who are circumcised of the heart! Actually, those things did come from man. The came from the gospel writers of which at least two copied from other gospel writers, -none of which probably even knew Jesus.
Aesop's Fables are also amazing glimpses of how mankind acts.No they came from Jesus, who received his wisdom and understanding from the father. I have never ever read about any other man who came with so much wisdom, understanding, love, forgiveness and compassion as Jesus did. He is the Messiah/Christ
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2016 3:36:32 GMT -5
You agree, but you really don't really know what either word means precisely. The word "messiah" absolutely does not mean "Christ" -- no matter what the Roman church wanted it meant to. A "messiah" is a Hebrew word, and it does mean "anointed one", a MAN chosen by God to perform good for the children of Israel. Every king in Israel was a messiah, even the Persian king because he facilitated the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The "Great Messiah" was, and still is, anticipated, specifically to deliver the nation of Israel from foreign domination. The Jews NEVER NEVER believed he would save them from their sins -- it makes absolutely no sense. The Jews did not, and do not, (1) believe in the doctrine of original sin, thus no original sin to be saved from. They did not (2) believe humans had souls separate from their human body, when a corpse rotted there was nothing more of him. They did not (3) believe in an afterlife. When they were dead that was the end of him. They did not (4) believe humans ever went to places like the Christian hell or heaven. They considered themselves God's chosen people and considered it blasphemy to even think of God having a son, or a holy spirit whispering in their ear. If you don't believe me, I have a few EXTREMELY devout Jewish relatives and friendly rabbis who will assure you that is absolutely correct. A "christ" (lower-case) was a Greek/Pagan child conceived by a coupling between a deity and a human woman. The child's purpose in life was to teach people how to prepare themselves to be able to ascend to the home of the gods. These christs, when they dies, were normally buried, then rose from their graves to return to their father/god in the realm of the gods. I know all the scripture you can possibly quote to claim this isn't so, but I'm sure you have no interest in spending the time to learn about this. I made not a word of it up, and there are volumes of professional writings to back it up. One way to verify this would be to consult the Vatican library -- the place where they keep all the "facts" they didn't want the people to know. Paul, you remember, was a Hellenistic Jew who did indeed disagree with the 12 disciples. It says here that the Jewish people believe in an afterlife www.jewfaq.org/m/olamhaba.htmAnd if they don't believe that the Messiah has already come, what purpose can he bring if there is no afterlife? What about all the Jews in the past who have died never knowing him. And why believe in God who is a spirit, if we just die and we aren't with him when we do. Why pray to God if they don't believe that he can let their spirit live on when they leave this flesh? Why believe in a God who clearly has a spirit, yet created man to live and die on this world for no purpose, it makes no sense!I believe that God is spirit, and I know that have a spirit that lives in this flesh. I know that when I leave this body my spirit goes on. But I leave where to in Gods hands and I don't worry about it. Mayhig, to the Jews the Messiah was to deliver them for their worldly oppressors, not "save" their "spirits" so they could go to an afterlife type Heaven.
Actually, the whole Christian belief system is what makes no sense.
It simply makes no sense that a all knowing, all powerful entity called anything would create such an imperfect people that they would sin and then HE would have to "sacrifice" his own son to save them! Completely makes no sense.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 21, 2016 4:50:38 GMT -5
without Christ its all in vain... Or you could be affiliated and immoral
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 21, 2016 4:51:42 GMT -5
Actually, those things did come from man. The came from the gospel writers of which at least two copied from other gospel writers, -none of which probably even knew Jesus.
Aesop's Fables are also amazing glimpses of how mankind acts. No they came from Jesus, who received his wisdom and understanding from the father. I have never ever read about any other man who came with so much wisdom, understanding, love, forgiveness and compassion as Jesus did. He is the Messiah/Christ Better start reading then.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2016 5:01:27 GMT -5
It says here that the Jewish people believe in an afterlife www.jewfaq.org/m/olamhaba.htmAnd if they don't believe that the Messiah has already come, what purpose can he bring if there is no afterlife? What about all the Jews in the past who have died never knowing him. And why believe in God who is a spirit, if we just die and we aren't with him when we do. Why pray to God if they don't believe that he can let their spirit live on when they leave this flesh? Why believe in a God who clearly has a spirit, yet created man to live and die on this world for no purpose, it makes no sense!I believe that God is spirit, and I know that have a spirit that lives in this flesh. I know that when I leave this body my spirit goes on. But I leave where to in Gods hands and I don't worry about it. Mayhig, to the Jews the Messiah was to deliver them for their worldly oppressors, not "save" their "spirits" so they could go to an afterlife type Heaven.
Actually, the whole Christian belief system is what makes no sense.
It simply makes no sense that a all knowing, all powerful entity called anything would create such an imperfect people that they would sin and then HE would have to "sacrifice" his own son to save them! Completely makes no sense.
As you probably know by now, I don't believe that Jesus was crucified to save us. I believe he bore his cross and endured to the end and never sinned showing us the way. Just like he tells us to bare our cross. And through following him we are saved from Satan, he is our stumblingblock who temps us daily. We are saved by the grace of God, by the indwelling spirit, and Christ strengthens us to overcome Satan in this life, cleansing the hearts of those that love him before God, and if we endure to the end and keep our faith we have the chance of eternal salvation. Also, you see everything naturally and through the flesh, but Gods people see things through the spirit and through revelation. Right I'm off out
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 21, 2016 5:29:59 GMT -5
You agree, but you really don't really know what either word means precisely. The word "messiah" absolutely does not mean "Christ" -- no matter what the Roman church wanted it meant to. A "messiah" is a Hebrew word, and it does mean "anointed one", a MAN chosen by God to perform good for the children of Israel. Every king in Israel was a messiah, even the Persian king because he facilitated the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The "Great Messiah" was, and still is, anticipated, specifically to deliver the nation of Israel from foreign domination. The Jews NEVER NEVER believed he would save them from their sins -- it makes absolutely no sense. The Jews did not, and do not, (1) believe in the doctrine of original sin, thus no original sin to be saved from. They did not (2) believe humans had souls separate from their human body, when a corpse rotted there was nothing more of him. They did not (3) believe in an afterlife. When they were dead that was the end of him. They did not (4) believe humans ever went to places like the Christian hell or heaven. They considered themselves God's chosen people and considered it blasphemy to even think of God having a son, or a holy spirit whispering in their ear. If you don't believe me, I have a few EXTREMELY devout Jewish relatives and friendly rabbis who will assure you that is absolutely correct. A "christ" (lower-case) was a Greek/Pagan child conceived by a coupling between a deity and a human woman. The child's purpose in life was to teach people how to prepare themselves to be able to ascend to the home of the gods. These christs, when they dies, were normally buried, then rose from their graves to return to their father/god in the realm of the gods. I know all the scripture you can possibly quote to claim this isn't so, but I'm sure you have no interest in spending the time to learn about this. I made not a word of it up, and there are volumes of professional writings to back it up. One way to verify this would be to consult the Vatican library -- the place where they keep all the "facts" they didn't want the people to know. Paul, you remember, was a Hellenistic Jew who did indeed disagree with the 12 disciples. I find what you are saying about the Jews really interesting! So do all Jews believe there is no afterlife? Also, you have to remember that I'm not a mainstream Christian. I've never heard of the term "original sin" until I'm came here. Although we do talk about the sin of Adam in our meeting. What do the Jews believe about Adam? Thanks for answering. Oh and do they believe in the spirit? Thanks You are going to find some Jews who do believe in an afterlife, but you're also going to find some Christians who believe they will be gods with their own planet in the afterlife. But according to Jewish theology, no, there is no afterlife. Heaven is a place where God resides, and there is no hell. The only life after this present one for Jews is that when the Great Messiah comes, and if they've been exemplary Jews, and if their remains have not been burned, they might be resurrected to live human life again on this earth. Otherwise, afterlife is of no consequence to Jews. As for "original sin", I never used it until I was approaching elderly, but that teaching was never in circulation until Saint Augustine came up with the "doctrine" around the 4th century CE, and the Roman church has promoted it ever since. Concerning Adam, for Jews the concept of original sin doesn't make any sense at all. After all, they don't believe in an afterlife, say nothing of believing they can be punished in an afterlife for anything. The doctrine of original sin only works on Christians -- in fact, there is evidence that it was designed and promoted as a tactic to scare people into obeying the clergy. Jews recognize that Adam wasn't the first "man" created. In the first chapter of Genesis people were created, then in the second creation story Adam was created. But the Hebrew description of Adam uses another word for him. In other words, there were two words for humans, and Adam was different (and superior) to the people created in the first chapter. If anything, Adam's "fall" could be that he bore children and let them marry people from the first creation. It does explain quite easily where Adam's sons got their wives. No, Jews do not believe in the "Holy Spirit". Originally Jews believed there were all different Gods, and the God of Abraham was the one Abraham chose to worship to the exclusion of all the others. Later on Jews stopped believing that there were any other gods, and the one God became perfectly singular. To them, God cannot have offspring, and He cannot be divided. It is a blasphemy to them to consider that God is anything but a totally singular being. Because the Roman church could never force all believers to believe their doctrine, the Jewish concept of God got passed on to Christians today who do not accept the Catholic concept of the Trinity. Muslims also keep the Jewish concept of God. To them there is no such thing as a Holy Spirit, and Jesus' being the Son of God means that he was a human being chosen by God (Allah) to be a prophet. They generally believe that Jesus will be judge at the end of time, but he was/is not an offspring of the deity. You are in the majority if you've never heard this before. Christians have two millennia of history in degrading both Jews and Muslims, as well as non-conforming sects of Christianity. The last thing they wanted people to know was the truth about Christianity's roots, and they had many centuries in which to purge Western Europe of any knowledge of it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 21, 2016 5:39:47 GMT -5
You agree, but you really don't really know what either word means precisely. The word "messiah" absolutely does not mean "Christ" -- no matter what the Roman church wanted it meant to. A "messiah" is a Hebrew word, and it does mean "anointed one", a MAN chosen by God to perform good for the children of Israel. Every king in Israel was a messiah, even the Persian king because he facilitated the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The "Great Messiah" was, and still is, anticipated, specifically to deliver the nation of Israel from foreign domination. The Jews NEVER NEVER believed he would save them from their sins -- it makes absolutely no sense. The Jews did not, and do not, (1) believe in the doctrine of original sin, thus no original sin to be saved from. They did not (2) believe humans had souls separate from their human body, when a corpse rotted there was nothing more of him. They did not (3) believe in an afterlife. When they were dead that was the end of him. They did not (4) believe humans ever went to places like the Christian hell or heaven. They considered themselves God's chosen people and considered it blasphemy to even think of God having a son, or a holy spirit whispering in their ear. If you don't believe me, I have a few EXTREMELY devout Jewish relatives and friendly rabbis who will assure you that is absolutely correct. A "christ" (lower-case) was a Greek/Pagan child conceived by a coupling between a deity and a human woman. The child's purpose in life was to teach people how to prepare themselves to be able to ascend to the home of the gods. These christs, when they dies, were normally buried, then rose from their graves to return to their father/god in the realm of the gods. I know all the scripture you can possibly quote to claim this isn't so, but I'm sure you have no interest in spending the time to learn about this. I made not a word of it up, and there are volumes of professional writings to back it up. One way to verify this would be to consult the Vatican library -- the place where they keep all the "facts" they didn't want the people to know. Paul, you remember, was a Hellenistic Jew who did indeed disagree with the 12 disciples. It says here that the Jewish people believe in an afterlife www.jewfaq.org/m/olamhaba.htmAnd if they don't believe that the Messiah has already come, what purpose can he bring if there is no afterlife? What about all the Jews in the past who have died never knowing him. And why believe in God who is a spirit, if we just die and we aren't with him when we do. Why pray to God if they don't believe that he can let their spirit live on when they leave this flesh? Why believe in a God who clearly has a spirit, yet created man to live and die on this world for no purpose, it makes no sense! I believe that God is spirit, and I know that have a spirit that lives in this flesh. I know that when I leave this body my spirit goes on. But I leave where to in Gods hands and I don't worry about it. You're trying to make sense of the "messiah" using the Christian concept of messiah. According to their tradition, the messiah (1) would only come when the majority of Jews had returned to Israel, and that has not been the case since the Babylonian captivity. (2) The great messiah would come with power -- to Christians that means to save souls, but Jews didn't have souls to save. The only power for them was earthly power, political I guess you could call it. (3) And the great messiah would come to reign over peace throughout the world -- but wars have persisted unabated since the time of Jesus. The present state of Israel does not qualify as the re-establishment of ancient Israel because it doesn't meet any of the requirements for the great messiah's arrival.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 21, 2016 5:46:58 GMT -5
Actually, those things did come from man. The came from the gospel writers of which at least two copied from other gospel writers, -none of which probably even knew Jesus.
Aesop's Fables are also amazing glimpses of how mankind acts. No they came from Jesus, who received his wisdom and understanding from the father. I have never ever read about any other man who came with so much wisdom, understanding, love, forgiveness and compassion as Jesus did. He is the Messiah/Christ It is not really difficult to find everything written about Jesus in the gospels of the New Testament in records of prior "christs". One of them virtually parallels most of the story of Jesus, from the manner of his birth to the manner of his death, and most of the events recorded in the Bible. I don't know what people want to do with that knowledge, but it's impossible to deny the truth of it because the early Roman church write about it, as did many many ancient writers Christians have long been prevented from accessing.
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Post by ellie on Apr 21, 2016 9:37:40 GMT -5
You agree, but you really don't really know what either word means precisely. The word "messiah" absolutely does not mean "Christ" -- no matter what the Roman church wanted it meant to. A "messiah" is a Hebrew word, and it does mean "anointed one", a MAN chosen by God to perform good for the children of Israel. Every king in Israel was a messiah, even the Persian king because he facilitated the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The "Great Messiah" was, and still is, anticipated, specifically to deliver the nation of Israel from foreign domination. The Jews NEVER NEVER believed he would save them from their sins -- it makes absolutely no sense. The Jews did not, and do not, (1) believe in the doctrine of original sin, thus no original sin to be saved from. They did not (2) believe humans had souls separate from their human body, when a corpse rotted there was nothing more of him. They did not (3) believe in an afterlife. When they were dead that was the end of him. They did not (4) believe humans ever went to places like the Christian hell or heaven. They considered themselves God's chosen people and considered it blasphemy to even think of God having a son, or a holy spirit whispering in their ear. If you don't believe me, I have a few EXTREMELY devout Jewish relatives and friendly rabbis who will assure you that is absolutely correct. A "christ" (lower-case) was a Greek/Pagan child conceived by a coupling between a deity and a human woman. The child's purpose in life was to teach people how to prepare themselves to be able to ascend to the home of the gods. These christs, when they dies, were normally buried, then rose from their graves to return to their father/god in the realm of the gods. I know all the scripture you can possibly quote to claim this isn't so, but I'm sure you have no interest in spending the time to learn about this. I made not a word of it up, and there are volumes of professional writings to back it up. One way to verify this would be to consult the Vatican library -- the place where they keep all the "facts" they didn't want the people to know. Paul, you remember, was a Hellenistic Jew who did indeed disagree with the 12 disciples. It says here that the Jewish people believe in an afterlife www.jewfaq.org/m/olamhaba.htmAnd if they don't believe that the Messiah has already come, what purpose can he bring if there is no afterlife? What about all the Jews in the past who have died never knowing him. And why believe in God who is a spirit, if we just die and we aren't with him when we do. Why pray to God if they don't believe that he can let their spirit live on when they leave this flesh? Why believe in a God who clearly has a spirit, yet created man to live and die on this world for no purpose, it makes no sense! I believe that God is spirit, and I know that have a spirit that lives in this flesh. I know that when I leave this body my spirit goes on. But I leave where to in Gods hands and I don't worry about it. Why does there have to be an afterlife for there to be a purpose? If believing in God adds to this life here and now, isn't that reason enough to believe?
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Post by Lee on Apr 21, 2016 11:12:21 GMT -5
Dont buy Bobs baloney Maryhig. Bob treats all of religion as an extension of politics and reinterprets history to conform to his mold. It is impossible for him to conceive that Christians were ever a response to Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 11:52:59 GMT -5
It says here that the Jewish people believe in an afterlife www.jewfaq.org/m/olamhaba.htmAnd if they don't believe that the Messiah has already come, what purpose can he bring if there is no afterlife? What about all the Jews in the past who have died never knowing him. And why believe in God who is a spirit, if we just die and we aren't with him when we do. Why pray to God if they don't believe that he can let their spirit live on when they leave this flesh? Why believe in a God who clearly has a spirit, yet created man to live and die on this world for no purpose, it makes no sense! I believe that God is spirit, and I know that have a spirit that lives in this flesh. I know that when I leave this body my spirit goes on. But I leave where to in Gods hands and I don't worry about it. Why does there have to be an afterlife for there to be a purpose? If believing in God adds to this life here and now, isn't that reason enough to believe? Yes ellie, that is a good reason, but the afterlife is offered as a sort of bonus/jackpot, and most human nature propels us towards the jackpot.
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Post by emy on Apr 21, 2016 14:21:17 GMT -5
Why does there have to be an afterlife for there to be a purpose? If believing in God adds to this life here and now, isn't that reason enough to believe? Yes, believing is a wonderful thing for this life, but there is this: 1 Cor 15:19-20 And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world. But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.
Apparently, Paul was aware that what awaits beyond is so much greater that it makes the blessings of this life as if "miserable." Sort of like in Solomon's kingdom there was so much gold that silver was "as nothing." oops... miserable is from the KJV. I quoted the NLT!
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Post by rational on Apr 21, 2016 16:14:39 GMT -5
without Christ its all in vain... You are a believer. I am guessing you live what you consider a moral life. I, on the other hand, am a non-believer. I believe I also live a moral life. We are both living moral lives yet you state that mine is in vain. How is your life less vain than mine? Can you back up your premise?
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Post by rational on Apr 21, 2016 16:19:47 GMT -5
Yes ellie, that is a good reason, but the afterlife is offered as a sort of bonus/jackpot, and most human nature propels us towards the jackpot. :)) You mention the carrot but not the stick! Can you see that living is living whether you believe in an afterlife or not? There are people who live good lives without needing to be bribed. Would you live differently if you were not worried about hell and hoping for heaven?
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2016 17:22:16 GMT -5
I find what you are saying about the Jews really interesting! So do all Jews believe there is no afterlife? Also, you have to remember that I'm not a mainstream Christian. I've never heard of the term "original sin" until I'm came here. Although we do talk about the sin of Adam in our meeting. What do the Jews believe about Adam? Thanks for answering. Oh and do they believe in the spirit? Thanks You are going to find some Jews who do believe in an afterlife, but you're also going to find some Christians who believe they will be gods with their own planet in the afterlife. But according to Jewish theology, no, there is no afterlife. Heaven is a place where God resides, and there is no hell. The only life after this present one for Jews is that when the Great Messiah comes, and if they've been exemplary Jews, and if their remains have not been burned, they might be resurrected to live human life again on this earth. Otherwise, afterlife is of no consequence to Jews. As for "original sin", I never used it until I was approaching elderly, but that teaching was never in circulation until Saint Augustine came up with the "doctrine" around the 4th century CE, and the Roman church has promoted it ever since. Concerning Adam, for Jews the concept of original sin doesn't make any sense at all. After all, they don't believe in an afterlife, say nothing of believing they can be punished in an afterlife for anything. The doctrine of original sin only works on Christians -- in fact, there is evidence that it was designed and promoted as a tactic to scare people into obeying the clergy. Jews recognize that Adam wasn't the first "man" created. In the first chapter of Genesis people were created, then in the second creation story Adam was created. But the Hebrew description of Adam uses another word for him. In other words, there were two words for humans, and Adam was different (and superior) to the people created in the first chapter. If anything, Adam's "fall" could be that he bore children and let them marry people from the first creation. It does explain quite easily where Adam's sons got their wives. No, Jews do not believe in the "Holy Spirit". Originally Jews believed there were all different Gods, and the God of Abraham was the one Abraham chose to worship to the exclusion of all the others. Later on Jews stopped believing that there were any other gods, and the one God became perfectly singular. To them, God cannot have offspring, and He cannot be divided. It is a blasphemy to them to consider that God is anything but a totally singular being. Because the Roman church could never force all believers to believe their doctrine, the Jewish concept of God got passed on to Christians today who do not accept the Catholic concept of the Trinity. Muslims also keep the Jewish concept of God. To them there is no such thing as a Holy Spirit, and Jesus' being the Son of God means that he was a human being chosen by God (Allah) to be a prophet. They generally believe that Jesus will be judge at the end of time, but he was/is not an offspring of the deity. You are in the majority if you've never heard this before. Christians have two millennia of history in degrading both Jews and Muslims, as well as non-conforming sects of Christianity. The last thing they wanted people to know was the truth about Christianity's roots, and they had many centuries in which to purge Western Europe of any knowledge of it. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that, that was interesting. And I probably believe a few things closer to the Jewish people than you think. As you may know, I don't believe in the trinity. There is only one God, also I don't believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans either. Adam had flesh when Eve was created, but besides that there are many things in Genesis that points toward Adam not being the first man. I.e as you said that men and women were created in chapter 1. I have said that before on this site. Regarding the holy spirit, in Genesis it says that Gods spirit moved over the face of the waters so there was mention of his spirit by the 2nd verse of the first chapter of Genesis. Also in the meeting tonight we opened up at Psalm 51 and this was in it. Psalm 51 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. So if the Jewish people don't believe in the holy spirit, why would king David mention him in a Psalm? I believe that we are saved from sin by Gods indwelling spirit. And it looks like David believed the same and I believe that Jesus came and showed us the way by not falling for temptation as Adam did. He came as an example for us to follow. And he gives us the strength to overcome.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 21, 2016 17:35:50 GMT -5
It says here that the Jewish people believe in an afterlife www.jewfaq.org/m/olamhaba.htmAnd if they don't believe that the Messiah has already come, what purpose can he bring if there is no afterlife? What about all the Jews in the past who have died never knowing him. And why believe in God who is a spirit, if we just die and we aren't with him when we do. Why pray to God if they don't believe that he can let their spirit live on when they leave this flesh? Why believe in a God who clearly has a spirit, yet created man to live and die on this world for no purpose, it makes no sense! I believe that God is spirit, and I know that have a spirit that lives in this flesh. I know that when I leave this body my spirit goes on. But I leave where to in Gods hands and I don't worry about it. Why does there have to be an afterlife for there to be a purpose? If believing in God adds to this life here and now, isn't that reason enough to believe? Why believe in God if your not going to be with him when you die? Why would God being a spirit create man in his image then not put a spirit within man? Why would God create us and then kill us off at the end of our lives if we love and obey him and he loves us? That makes no sense to me. Also, in Ecclesiastes 12, which is in the old testament it says this. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" If we die and go nowhere as Bob says the Jews believe, why would a Jew in the old testament say that our spirit returns back to God?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 21, 2016 17:38:46 GMT -5
Dont buy Bobs baloney Maryhig. Bob treats all of religion as an extension of politics and reinterprets history to conform to his mold. It is impossible for him to conceive that Christians were ever a response to Christ. You may be right. I recall once thinking that Christians sprang fully matured from the brain of Zeus.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 21, 2016 17:42:51 GMT -5
Why does there have to be an afterlife for there to be a purpose? If believing in God adds to this life here and now, isn't that reason enough to believe? Yes, believing is a wonderful thing for this life, but there is this: 1 Cor 15:19-20 And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world. But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.
Apparently, Paul was aware that what awaits beyond is so much greater that it makes the blessings of this life as if "miserable." Sort of like in Solomon's kingdom there was so much gold that silver was "as nothing." oops... miserable is from the KJV. I quoted the NLT! It was Paul who introduced the afterlife concept to Christianity -- otherwise they wouldn't be called Christians AT ALL. Remember, Pagan christs were the ones who were intended to instruct humans on how to "live with the gods".
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