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Post by joanna on Jan 18, 2016 20:31:30 GMT -5
The predominant trend on this forum is to make accusations against the 2x2 belief for a range of perceived issues including exclusivity; authoritarianism; hierarchy; shunning of apostates; worker control; financial issues; CSA cover up, false claims/lies etc
I was raised in the meetings but left after a few decades due to being unable to believe the claims made in the bible. I agree that those issues listed above are present in the 2x2 group, however minimal effort is required to prove that every one of the accusations made against the 2x2 belief can also be applied to other religions. It is more than ironic that those who are now members of another religion have not shed their myopic glasses and are thus focused on the failures of their previous belief whilst concurrently failing to consider that they are mired in a belief which is exclusive; cannot verify their specific brand of 'truth claims'; relies on a hierarchical organisational structure; has a lack of financial transparency and even corruption & so on.
So how do we successfully free ourselves from that which obstructs objectivity? We are all at risk of being biased however religiosity thrives on this approach.
These two videos are worth contemplating. There are numerous videos on Bayes Rule and this was easy listening:
This is to those who ask "Why should others care about their belief?" The title of this thread was sourced from Daniel Dennett's words:
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Post by Lee on Jan 18, 2016 21:08:51 GMT -5
JC has liberated all kinds of people from religious tyranny, darkness, or superstition. Also political and cultural tyranny and correctness (really incorrectness).
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 18, 2016 22:10:28 GMT -5
JC has liberated all kinds of people from religious tyranny, darkness, or superstition. Also political and cultural tyranny and correctness (really incorrectness). JC, (Jesus) attempted to reform his own Jewish religion but was turned into Christianity, -Jesus the Christ, -by Paul who more than any other of the Jesus followers developed this "new" religion called Christianity.
Christianity has produced just as much religious tyranny, darkness and superstition as any religion before Christianity and it still infects so many people today who can't free themselves from the clutches of that religion.
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Post by Lee on Jan 18, 2016 22:58:14 GMT -5
Some people who call themselves Christians are superstitious but I don't think Christ was.
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Post by Lee on Jan 18, 2016 23:00:48 GMT -5
"Christianity has produced just as much religious tyranny, darkness and superstition as any religion before Christianity and it still infects so many people today who can't free themselves from the clutches of that religion"
I don't think so. The so-called, post-Christian world is just that, post-Christian, and undeniably still influenced by it.
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Post by magpie on Jan 19, 2016 0:33:05 GMT -5
Joanna,"NO" Who is in Gods name serving in refugee camps(daily burying the dead mums and babys,working amongst the Lepers,3rd world,Street amongst the poor,homeless,abused,mentally ill,exPrisoners,addicts,alcho's,deserted abused moms,and most of all CSA and Incest kids,met one ex 2x2 child once as we were on the soup van late at night,as with Islamic Child Brides, this little girl was running away from further ministry and sexual abuse,by that ministry,we sadly lost contact with that one, running away from a group that would have judged her as rebelious Remember the Henderson kids suicides?The "GUILT" is on the pseudo ministry
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Post by rational on Jan 19, 2016 1:49:21 GMT -5
Joanna,"NO" Who is in Gods name serving in refugee camps(daily burying the dead mums and babys,working amongst the Lepers,3rd world,Street amongst the poor,homeless,abused,mentally ill,exPrisoners,addicts,alcho's,deserted abused moms,and most of all CSA and Incest kids Members of the red cross and/or red crescent?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 19, 2016 2:03:44 GMT -5
Joanna,"NO" Who is in Gods name serving in refugee camps(daily burying the dead mums and babys,working amongst the Lepers,3rd world,Street amongst the poor,homeless,abused,mentally ill,exPrisoners,addicts,alcho's,deserted abused moms,and most of all CSA and Incest kids,met one ex 2x2 child once as we were on the soup van late at night,as with Islamic Child Brides, this little girl was running away from further ministry and sexual abuse,by that ministry,we sadly lost contact with that one, running away from a group that would have judged her as rebelious Remember the Henderson kids suicides?The "GUILT" is on the pseudo ministry Magpie, What does those initials "NO" mean? What organization is it?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 19, 2016 5:26:24 GMT -5
Members of the red cross and/or red crescent? Interesting article from Matthew Parris, an atheist, who believes that Africa needs God. www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-africa-needs-god-not-just-aid-36192/Of course, his writings have been well publicised by mainstream secular media. It is good to see a balanced view based on his first-hand experience over there. Ross, do you also like Matthew Parris's "balanced" view on gay rights?
"In August 2006, Parris entered into a civil partnership with his long-term partner, Julian Glover, a speech writer for David Cameron and a former political journalist at The Guardian. At the time of their partnership, they had been together for 11 years." wiki
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 18:39:22 GMT -5
Joanna, HOW MANY times have I stated the existence of other groups similar to truth in practice and behavior? This board happens to be about the fellowship meetings. I have been very critical of other groups like Ammish, JWs, Westboro, Mormons, Moonies, and other groups that I believe are worse than the Truth in many ways. This isn't the first time you have brought this up so I hope I have cleared it up. I have no desire to take the time to be admin but if I did, I would delete and ban those who don't keep the topics meeting related..good or bad. Again, this board deals with a group of people called Friends and Workers. I like to occasionally post You Tube videos about problems in other churches. I think the friends need to realize that there are other belief systems needing accountability and openness. I feel that the Truth way is more biblically solid than some of the groups I mentioned in the 3rd sentence. But I feel the handling of the origins and the CSA problem makes up for other solid beliefs in the meeting system.
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Post by joanna on Jan 19, 2016 19:29:35 GMT -5
@laverdad How do you expect to resolve problems in one relatively insignificant christian group when the contributors for the problems are shared by all religions? Those who focus only on the meetings are going around in circles as shown by the nature of the thread topics. It is futile to remain bogged down in what is just a micro-example of religious dissonance.
Certainly the problems within the 2x2 group have to be identified but until we link the dots and acknowledge and comprehend that the contributing factors to the 2x2 issues are not exclusive to this group but are innate to religiosity, how is it possible to progress.
The manner in which we process and analyse information is fundamental to achieving resolution. By perpetuating any and all beliefs which are predicated upon the same premise, it is disingenuous to cling to the goal to resolve issues in this or any other forum. The solution does not lie within any specific religious group.
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." - Albert Einstein
Every problem identified in the 2x2 group can be used to prompt reflection of the broader impact of the religious mindset and encourage us to think outside the square, or 'narrow way' in this instance.
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Post by joanna on Jan 19, 2016 19:36:58 GMT -5
Ross.Bowden you believe that Africa needs god. Doesn’t Matthew Parris presents as confused when he writes regarding his visit to Africa “It inspired me, renewing my flagging faith in development charities. But travelling in Malawi refreshed another belief, too: one I’ve been trying to banish all my life, but an observation I’ve been unable to avoid since my African childhood. It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my world view, and has embarrassed my growing belief that there is no God”. An atheist cannot simultaneously negate the existence of an entity whilst recommending the same entity as a solution for x,y or z. So Parris recommends “god” for Africa. It seems he has skipped over the tribal gods but is focusing on the god of Abraham. However he is not referring to the Hebrew God worshipped by the Jewish population, nor Allah, another variety of the god of Abraham, but out of the smorgasbord of available gods, he appears to have narrowed the solution to Africa’s issues to the god of the King James bible’s New Testament. Christianity, in the form of roman catholicism, arrived into North Africa in the late 1st to early 2nd centuries and spread widely until an Islamic caliphate, through the use of military force, effectively ended this Christian reign around the 7th century though the roman catholic faith persisted in some areas of Africa. Christians and muslims continue to be perpetrators of sectarian violence to the present day. Parris’ claim that “Africa needs god” ignores the real and terrible problems which result from the impact of christianity. Here is a Norm Allen’s rebuttal to Matthew Parris: "On December 27, 2008, the self-professed atheist Matthew Parris argued for religion in Africa in The Times Online, headquartered in the UK. In his article titled “As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God,” he spoke glowingly of “the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa….”
I readily admit that missionaries have done some great work in Africa—building roads, clinics, schools, etc. However, missionaries in recent years have also enriched themselves while exploiting the masses, discouraged millions of Africans from using condoms, thereby increasing unwanted pregnancies and the spread of Aids, promoted sexism, contributed greatly to the persecution and deaths of alleged witches, etc. Indeed, Africa provides the perfect example of what Robert Ingersoll said about the historic role of the Catholic Church: “In one hand she carried the alms dish, in the other, the dagger.” The same could be said of organized religion in general.
In Rwanda, Christians were complicit in the genocide that occurred there in the 1990s. Many people were brutally murdered in churches. In Nigeria, Christians and Muslims have been killing each other by the thousands. Throughout Uganda, Zimbabwe, Nigeria and many other African nations, Bible-based homophobia plays a major role in the persecution, and in some cases, murders, of LGBTs.
What Africa needs is what Ingersoll called “a caring rationalism.” The Bible simply contains too many ultra-reactionary and inhumane messages to be blindly embraced by believers. Christian ideas of tolerance are inconsistent with the biblical notion that acceptance of Christ is the only way to reach heaven. The Prince of Peace said he came to bring not peace, but a sword. It is no wonder that there are so many different conceptions of Christianity, not all of them benign.
A humanistic life-stance is the best way to approach the many divisive religious and ethnic conflicts that plague Africa. Human-centered thought and action offer much more for African uplift than piety and prayers ever could. Christian charity is, indeed, commendable. However our appreciation of the missionaries’ alms dish must never blind us to the dagger that so often accompanies it".Bias thinking is fundamental to the glossing over, or ignoring of the disastrous impacts of religiosity and Africa is a pertinent example of these. Consider that proscriptive religious texts including the Hebrew bible and the qu’ran promote a patriarchal hierarchy and therefore subordinate women. Christopher Hitchens stated that the ‘cure for poverty is the empowerment of women’. Religions have opposed contraception, abortion and the use of condoms resulting in infinite deaths. Any subsequent ‘good works’ performed by those who perpetuate these beliefs can never compensate for the devastation they inflicted. Doing Good for God What about all of the good things people have done in the name of God? It is undeniable that many people of faith make heroic sacrifices to relieve the suffering of other human beings. But is it necessary to believe anything on insufficient evidence in order to behave this way? If compassion were really dependent upon religious dogmatism, how could we explain the work of secular doctors in the most war-ravaged regions of the developing world? Many doctors are moved simply to alleviate human suffering, without any thought of God. While there is no doubt that Christian missionaries are also moved by a desire to alleviate suffering, they come to the task encumbered by a dangerous and divisive mythology. Missionaries in the developing world waste a lot of time and money (not to mention the goodwill of nonChristians) proselytizing to the needy; they spread inaccurate information about contraception and sexually transmitted disease, and they withhold accurate information. While missionaries do many noble things at great risk to themselves, their dogmatism still spreads ignorance and death. By contrast, volunteers for secular organizations like Doctors Without Borders do not waste any time telling people about the virgin birth of Jesus. Nor do they tell people in sub-Saharan Africa—where nearly four million people die from AIDS every year—that condom use is sinful. Christian missionaries have been known to preach the sinfulness of condom use in villages where no other information about condoms is available. This kind of piety is genocidal.* We might also wonder, in passing, which is more moral: helping people purely out of concern for their suffering, or helping them because you think the creator of the universe will reward you for it? Sam Harris
Africa needs to be free of all gods.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 19:43:13 GMT -5
Some problems are human in nature. CSA can be found in ALL groups. Some are more open and honest while others sweep it under the rug. Joanna, to act like ALL religions are like that would be like someone comparing all atheists to Joseph Stalin or Mao Tse Zong. Or the school shooters in Columbine who shot a Christian girl.
I grew up in Truth. I didn't grow up in other religion systems. So I care more about what happens in Truth. And I have young relatives in Truth and I don't have any young relatives in other beliefs.
All groups (human or secular) have problems. Honesty, openness are the way to deal with problems and lessen any abuse that might occur. The prestige of a group is never more important than the safety of its members especially its most helpless ones...children and elderly. If your garden club is ripping off elderly people, don't stand for it. I love groups but groups can often be cruel and evil. A bully leader can get some support and take advantage of others.
I could show you a grave of a young girl murdered by her youth leader in her local church. The poor girl was trusting of this fine young man. This fine young man from a respected family raped and strangled her. After a jail sentence for several years, this once fine young man has been released. The people in this man's town (around Cincinnati) needs to be warned that he strangled a little girl when he was a teen. Groups can cause people to be more abusive if they believe they have support to behave in an irrational way. It is all about group dynamics.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 19:50:49 GMT -5
Joanna, if you think atheists are perfect and incapable or mass evil, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I will sell you. I kind of resent the constant badgering of Christians for a few here. Some who act like atheists are so much more intelligent, genteel, and morally superior. There are nice decent non believers out there. But there are some evil demonic atheists out there as well. Mao and Stalin forced atheism onto their nations while millions were exterminated. North Korea is atheist. Never think that it would be a perfect world if all religious people died or left their religion. Many of your campus shooters have professed no religion at all. No, No, I am NOT saying all atheists are school shooters. But there have been some good Christians who haven't done evil and actually lots of good in the world.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 19, 2016 23:29:21 GMT -5
Ross, do you also like Matthew Parris's "balanced" view on gay rights?
"In August 2006, Parris entered into a civil partnership with his long-term partner, Julian Glover, a speech writer for David Cameron and a former political journalist at The Guardian. At the time of their partnership, they had been together for 11 years." wiki Thanks - I haven't read any articles by Matthew Parris on gay rights. His sexuality won't have anything to do with his intellect or ability to write on what Africa needs - based on his first hand experience. It's not often that you read of an atheist writing what he did. He obviously saw the work that Christian organisations/charities were doing on a daily basis and thought it was positive. As a Christian, I see a lot of humanitarian work done by secular organisations and appreciate it. I also appreciate the work undertaken by Christian organisations and appreciate it. I hope that's a reasonably balanced view as well. My point was that we often see Christians like yourself bringing forward a "token" atheist as kind of "card" in an attempt to prove Christianity's validity, -while all the while ignoring the others characteristics of the said "token" atheist that they would disagree with.
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Post by slowtosee on Jan 19, 2016 23:47:10 GMT -5
I think Joanna brings out some good points about "religion", and in some ways "science" has more positive "path" to follow to God, and interestingly , many scientists have followed that path to God. Alvin “It may seem bizarre, but in my opinion science offers a surer path to God than religion.” “People take it for granted that the physical world is both ordered and intelligible. The underlying order in nature-the laws of physics-are simply accepted as given, as brute facts. Nobody asks where they came from; at least they do not do so in polite company. However, even the most atheistic scientist accepts as an act of faith that the universe is not absurd, that there is a rational basis to physical existence manifested as law-like order in nature that is at least partly comprehensible to us. So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview.” –Physicist Paul Davies, the winner of the 2001 Kelvin Medal issued by the Institute of Physics and the winner of the 2002 Faraday Prize issued by the Royal Society (amongst other awards), as cited in his book God and the New Physics (first quote), and from his acceptance address of the 1995 Templeton Prize (second quote). “The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who – in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ – cannot hear the music of the spheres.” —Albert Einstein “If we need an atheist for a debate, we go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn’t much use.” —Robert Griffiths, winner of the Heinemann Prize in mathematical physics. “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” “In the history of science, ever since the famous trial of Galileo, it has repeatedly been claimed that scientific truth cannot be reconciled with the religious interpretation of the world. Although I am now convinced that scientific truth is unassailable in its own field, I have never found it possible to dismiss the content of religious thinking as simply part of an outmoded phase in the consciousness of mankind, a part we shall have to give up from now on. Thus in the course of my life I have repeatedly been compelled to ponder on the relationship of these two regions of thought, for I have never been able to doubt the reality of that to which they point.” —Werner Heisenberg, who was awarded the 1932 Nobel Prize in Physics for the creation of quantum mechanics (which is absolutely crucial to modern science). godevidence.com/2010/08/quotes-about-god/
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 19, 2016 23:50:09 GMT -5
Joanna, if you think atheists are perfect and incapable or mass evil, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I will sell you. I kind of resent the constant badgering of Christians for a few here. Some who act like atheists are so much more intelligent, genteel, and morally superior. There are nice decent non believers out there. But there are some evil demonic atheists out there as well. Mao and Stalin forced atheism onto their nations while millions were exterminated. North Korea is atheist. Never think that it would be a perfect world if all religious people died or left their religion. Many of your campus shooters have professed no religion at all. No, No, I am NOT saying all atheists are school shooters. But there have been some good Christians who haven't done evil and actually lots of good in the world. As usual with so many Christians, someone still doesn't know the meaning of atheism.atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism"Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."
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Post by slowtosee on Jan 20, 2016 0:47:47 GMT -5
Seems like not always agreement on how best to define atheism, including amongst atheists, but I think the definition you gave is a pretty good one, but ?? Atheism is a claim of a persons state of mind, not a claim about the existence or not of God. Theism, likewise. One problem in that definition might be that cars , trees, rocks ALSO "lack a belief in gods", and does that make them atheist? It would seem that there is a need for clarity, to define it as a "disbelief or denial of gods" ? Kinda tricky , I guess. As Phillip Johnson said, “He who is a skeptic in one set of beliefs is a true believer in another set of beliefs.” Alvin
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Post by Grant on Jan 20, 2016 2:02:40 GMT -5
There is a continuum of exclusivity and other issues in religion. You can't make all equal. So to say all religions, although i think Joanna might be also meaning churches, are exclusive like the 2x2s is misleading. There may be a degree of it and other things mentioned in the post above, but some are on the mild end of the scale while others more severe and controlling.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 20, 2016 2:34:55 GMT -5
Seems like not always agreement on how best to define atheism, including amongst atheists, but I think the definition you gave is a pretty good one, but ?? Atheism is a claim of a persons state of mind, not a claim about the existence or not of God. Theism, likewise. One problem in that definition might be that cars , trees, rocks ALSO "lack a belief in gods", and does that make them atheist? It would seem that there is a need for clarity, to define it as a "disbelief or denial of gods" ? Kinda tricky , I guess. As Phillip Johnson said, “He who is a skeptic in one set of beliefs is a true believer in another set of beliefs.” Alvin Perhaps this definition of atheism from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary is better understood.
Atheism: Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
So, -no, the term Atheism in and of itself isn't a claim of a persons state of mind, -but it is a claim about the existence or not of god or gods just as theism is also not a state of mind but rather is about the claim of an existence of a god.
The term atheism doesn't apply to inanimate, non-living objects like cars , trees, rocks.
I am clear in my own mind as to the definition, -as I have thought through that process as I took long, long look many years ago as to whether I could find any evidence for a god, I didn't find any.
A lot of it for me came down to why people seem to need a god. One can trace the multitude of gods & goddesses through out human history and see why people seemed to need a god or goddess at those particular times and what kind of god or goddess they would need.
It was rather easy to see that those gods & goddesses did NOT create the people in THEIR image, but the other way around. People created the gods & goddesses in their own images because that answered their own needs at that particular point in history.
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Post by withlove on Jan 20, 2016 2:39:54 GMT -5
@laverdad How do you expect to resolve problems in one relatively insignificant christian group when the contributors for the problems are shared by all religions? Those who focus only on the meetings are going around in circles as shown by the nature of the thread topics. It is futile to remain bogged down in what is just a micro-example of religious dissonance. Certainly the problems within the 2x2 group have to be identified but until we link the dots and acknowledge and comprehend that the contributing factors to the 2x2 issues are not exclusive to this group but are innate to religiosity, how is it possible to progress. The manner in which we process and analyse information is fundamental to achieving resolution. By perpetuating any and all beliefs which are predicated upon the same premise, it is disingenuous to cling to the goal to resolve issues in this or any other forum. The solution does not lie within any specific religious group. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." - Albert Einstein Every problem identified in the 2x2 group can be used to prompt reflection of the broader impact of the religious mindset and encourage us to think outside the square, or 'narrow way' in this instance. Some people lose their belief in a higher power before they leave meetings, but some lose that belief in stages. Your posts may influence a professing person or a member of another church or religion to become atheist, but some people the posts may have an opposite effect on. If I had read your posts while a devoted professing person, I would have instantly disregarded any statement about the friends or Christianity you made because you didn't believe at all. So I any helpful observation would go right over my head and I'd stay stuck. What I mean to say is that some people in bondage need to wake up by degrees. Cult de-programmers seem to approach it that way rather than saying "everything you know is rubbish." Not saying that you put it quite that way. No no amount of apostates complaining worked for me. It took me learning about the bad things in other churches, to realize that we were the same. Lots of uncomfortable "aha" moments. If the choice was to stay in meetings or become atheist, I wouldn't have left. The choice became that I could continue my relationship with heaven on my own even if I never joined another group. That was doable for me. I guess my point is that non-believers might point out the problems in churches and be more effective in helping people get out of some religious bondage. But that is only some people...others respond to giving up faith cold turkey.
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Post by rational on Jan 20, 2016 9:35:54 GMT -5
Joanna, if you think atheists are perfect and incapable or mass evil, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I will sell you. I think the difference is that there are many many examples of people who have killed in the name of their god/religion. Mothers have killed their children because they thought that was god's will. There are few examples where atheists kill in the name of ... well no god.Can you present some supporting posts? Perhaps this is your own reflection. To quote Stephen Roberts - "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."But it was not done because they were atheists.North Korea is not in the situation it is in because of atheism.Why?No religion is a far cry from being an atheist. Do you have any examples where the shooters stated they did not believe in a paranormal being?Certainly. It seems you slipped into a discussion comparing atheists and christians. You seem to confuse non-christian with atheism. There are folk religions in North Korea. And is the Juche ideology that far from other religions? The people are subordination to a single sacred leader. The fact that the leader is still alive doesn't change things.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 20, 2016 15:08:24 GMT -5
As Phillip Johnson said, “He who is a skeptic in one set of beliefs is a true believer in another set of beliefs.” I tend to agree with this, whether we can see it in ourselves or not. (We can often see it pretty clearly in others.) You will find “Halleluiah, I have found the Truth” people espousing pretty much every kind of world view. To my mind, it is probably more of a stage of psychological development than anything. I don’t tend to find the atheist/theist definitions all that helpful as descriptors of people, no matter how you want to split hairs over it. In my own categorizations of people on this board, I tend to use the “likes the ‘God’ terminology” / “is ambivalent over the ‘God’ terminology” / “doesn’t like the ‘God’ terminology”. To my mind, a far more interesting measure of people is their attitude towards the unknown and the extent to which they embrace a sense of wonder over doctrine or vice versa. Or to frame it Einstein’s words - whether or not they can “hear the music of the spheres”. (I mean this in both a literal and figurative sense.)
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Post by rational on Jan 20, 2016 20:34:08 GMT -5
I don’t tend to find the atheist/theist definitions all that helpful as descriptors of people, no matter how you want to split hairs over it. In my own categorizations of people on this board, I tend to use the “likes the ‘God’ terminology” / “is ambivalent over the ‘God’ terminology” / “doesn’t like the ‘God’ terminology”. It almost seems like you want to redefine 'atheist'. I am not sure why you feel the need to split hairs over that belief. Atheists, by definition, do not believe in a deity or deities. You are right, it is not very helpful in describing people other than defining their belief/non-belief in a paranormal being.
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Post by joanna on Jan 20, 2016 20:49:32 GMT -5
I agree withlove. Each person is unique and there is no 'one-size fits all' approach to empowering those affected by religious beliefs. I just hope that some believers may be encouraged to apply their own reasoning, and be motivated to research without feeling guilty or ashamed. SharonArnold only those who have a strong belief seem unable to understand that it is possible to live free of any belief system. Do you accept new information without question? If you are directed by your peers or manager or other to perform a task, do you enact that without consideration? It would be unusual and unlikely if you did not process and appraise data to determine whether it was constructive versus burdensome or dangerous. Once free of the mind numbing impacts of religion, I was able to make informed decisions. Being told not to question; to be as a child; to follow an individual's teachings which were recorded approximately two thousand years ago, and to believe the contents of a book which are literally unbelievable, has a negative impact on our brains. It numbs our potential for critical thinking. Einstein also wrote "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being".When encouraging people to opt for reason over faith; it is not imposing a fixed belief system but rather handing it over to the individual to source that which can be proven. Instead of adhering to a rigid and inflexible faith-based system and claiming you possess the truth without being able to prove this; it is being able to say "I do not know" thus inspiring a willingness to learn from those who are at the helm of scientific discoveries and other experts. It is ironic that those who speak about humility tend to have all the (non) answers and are so ready to accuse those of us who simply do not believe in that which cannot be proven and are open to learning and accepting new information. I suppose my approach on this forum does tend to conform to "the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth". My personal experience with religion and subsequently learning of the ubiquitous damage it inflicts across the globe inspires me to prompt others to allow their innate ability to reason, to predominate over their faith.
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Post by magpie on Jan 21, 2016 0:00:14 GMT -5
Joanna, Our suburban church is ecumenical,as most others here and nabouring suburbs. We interchange speakers,Pastors,counsellers,youth speakers,food bank services and together reach out to the dislodged regardless to their needs,backgrounds and circumstances.Who is nurturing those in the 3rd world? Refugees,(Christ was a refugee Egypt took him in)war torn cities and medical requirements,CHRISTIANS. We see so many people give up the lovely lifestyle of a western holiday to "SERVE" in God's name,from our own church alone 2x young couples had a several months honeymoon,one couple in an AIDs orphanage Africa, the others in Burma (Myanmar). Now where do you get that tacky belief as we were taught in 2x2s that when one person in a church fails it is everyone,how does the percentage compare to the CSA in that group. Not all 2x2s are evil,badly missled,but sincere in morals. Now money any of our churches we have a healing interaction with regardless to their persuasion,I can assure you regular financial updates are available,if we ask any of them they would make a copy available, And welfare to the,single struggling parent, poor,hurting and little ones,here and 3rd world is why is why we struggle to keep the books in credit. 2x2s often over the decades say they often dont declare the $$$s stuffed in their pockets.One said you sort of loose track of what people give you.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 21, 2016 1:51:00 GMT -5
Joanna, Our suburban church is ecumenical,as most others here and nabouring suburbs. We interchange speakers,Pastors,counsellers,youth speakers,food bank services and together reach out to the dislodged regardless to their needs,backgrounds and circumstances. Who is nurturing those in the 3rd world? Refugees,(Christ was a refugee Egypt took him in)war torn cities and medical requirements,CHRISTIANS. We see so many people give up the lovely lifestyle of a western holiday to "SERVE" in God's name,from our own church alone 2x young couples had a several months honeymoon,one couple in an AIDs orphanage Africa, the others in Burma (Myanmar). Now where do you get that tacky belief as we were taught in 2x2s that when one person in a church fails it is everyone,how does the percentage compare to the CSA in that group. Not all 2x2s are evil,badly missled,but sincere in morals. Now money any of our churches we have a healing interaction with regardless to their persuasion,I can assure you regular financial updates are available,if we ask any of them they would make a copy available, And welfare to the,single struggling parent, poor,hurting and little ones,here and 3rd world is why is why we struggle to keep the books in credit. 2x2s often over the decades say they often dont declare the $$$s stuffed in their pockets. One said you sort of loose track of what people give you. I'm not answering for Johanna, -just my own thoughts on your post.
My understanding is the subject of this thread is not the comparison of the 2x2 church with other Christian religions, but rather about the belief in all l religions in general and perhaps the Christian churches in particular and how those religious beliefs affect our ability to think in a objective manner. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Johanna)
Johanna ask the question, "So how do we successfully free ourselves from that which obstructs objectivity?"
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Post by magpie on Jan 21, 2016 6:35:51 GMT -5
Hello Dimmichgood, The central part of her post engulfs other, as she says Religions, Christianity is one Religion. Sadly divided,some divided by near uncurably exclusivisms,others divided by lesser and in some cases petty differences.. Jesus is not wanting to return to a divided bride. But thankfully as things are waxing worse the ecumenical sides of so many Christian persuasions and believers are not allowing them stay divided. As Islam State have us all on their death wish Christians united fronts are the greatest strength and unity in purpose and prayer involves God with us.
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