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Post by xna on Jan 10, 2016 20:16:04 GMT -5
I was surprised by this % - "Around 3 percent of Americans report experiencing some type of NDE. " An interesting review of NDE. rationalwiki.org/wiki/Near-death_experience"Every night, I talk to dead people and I fly through space, and I call it dreaming. " - Christof Koch, professor of cognitive and behavioural biology at Caltech
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2016 20:26:46 GMT -5
XNA, in deference toward those who object to the term NDE, could we please use the more precise phrase "experience which occurs after cardiac arrest, lung failure and flat lining of the brain, but before resuscitation", or EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR? It matters not that those sharing an EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR suffer clinical death.
For me, if it were not for EWOACALFAFLOTBBBRs, I would consider the possibility of retained consciousness after death to be utter silliness, but EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR reports provide enough interesting evidence that I remain unsure what to think. I wish I could have an EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 10, 2016 20:29:28 GMT -5
quit shouting, DM, and give me a name then for the experiences that occur after the brain, heart and lungs have quit functioning. I honestly don't care what you call it. Researchers use the term NDE simply because of existing tradition, while pointing out that it's mislabeled because they are really after-death-experiences. If you like, I'll switch to ADE. Of course, that won't satisfy you because your definition of dead is "cannot be revived." ok, give me another word than death. Shall we say "unalive"? These are AUE's then, or already-unalive-experiences. I'm really not picky. But I see no point in arguing semantics with you. The problem, DD, -is that there are certain times that one MUST "shout" after the obvious has been repeated over & over.
No one has ever come back from being dead & told the tale. End of story.
The very fact that they are able to tell their story means they simply did not die! What they have experienced was not after they were dead,- but was being experienced by their brain as they were dying.
This whole exercise about NDE's is only happening because some people still want to hang onto the belief that there is an after-life. That is why they want to believe that is what is happening in these NDE's.
You are right in that there is no point in arguing semantics.
Semantics be damned. When you are dead you are dead. It doesn't really matter what you want to call it.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2016 20:32:14 GMT -5
no problem dm, I already suggested an alternative acronym.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 20:49:33 GMT -5
Whatever another calls it, the experience I had was in a saved eternity, being able to fully understand it then, unable to explain it since. The same voice heard years before when struck as a pedestrian by a 1976 Chev Monte Carlo driven by an intoxicated man, spoke again giving me the choice to remain or go back. Near death, after death, in the body, out of the body, I have neither any idea nor explanation. Others have called it a near death experience, however, it is not what I perceived.
My perception was being somewhere grand, yet unaware of any others, as the perception was of something only beginning. Upon choosing to return for others sake, immediately I saw my fevered, diseased body laying on the bed, with my weeping wife begging me to return. It was only upon entering my body that the intense perception of pain returned,
Yeah, yeah, I know all the opinions of those not experiencing it, and even though purposing to remain silent about it, felt compelled to relate this much once again. It has been decades, yet the memory remains vivid.
Immediately, then, this account was told mental health Drs. who did not believe it was merely a hallucination, rather an "unexplainable" experience. The experts in this forum, never experiencing such a thing, quickly stated as fact my unbalanced state of mind brought on some sort of hallucination. Needless to say, their opinions from that point forward became just that to me, at the advice of advanced mental health specialists and professionals.
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Post by xna on Jan 10, 2016 20:50:54 GMT -5
XNA, in deference toward those who object to the term NDE, could we please use the more precise phrase "experience which occurs after cardiac arrest, lung failure and flat lining of the brain, but before resuscitation", or EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR? It matters not that those sharing an EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR suffer clinical death. For me, if it were not for EWOACALFAFLOTBBBRs, I would consider the possibility of retained consciousness after death to be utter silliness, but EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR reports provide enough interesting evidence that I remain unsure what to think. I wish I could have an EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR. Sorry, neither me, nor google knows anything about "EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR". I do not object to using NDE. It's descriptive enough for me. I would object to s aying someone died and came back to life after a NDE. To me death is the point of no return. I do understand the line between life and death is not fixed, and science is able to move the natural boundaries. There are clinical guidelines for agreement when brain death has occurred, as I previously posted. To me NDE seems very much like dreaming. I did learn today that a NDE experience can be caused by orgasm! I had never thought about that, but then I remembered the French saying "La petite mort", where we American's just say OH GOD - OH GOD! Perhaps that accounts for part of the 3% who report having had a NDE. In ancient times people thought god(s) were speaking to them during their dreams. As one who has never had a NDE, it seem much like dreaming.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 10, 2016 20:55:57 GMT -5
Semantics be damned. When you are dead you are dead. It doesn't really matter what you want to call it. By this do you mean that "you" cease to exist? You do not know this. This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But, be clear that it is only your opinion. I am of the opinion that *I* will never be more alive than at the moment of my death. In the absence of data, I go with the wisdom traditions.
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Post by Lee on Jan 10, 2016 20:58:39 GMT -5
Amazing how invested we are in death. This is death worship. This is reprobation. For who really knows of the soul?
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Post by Lee on Jan 10, 2016 21:01:45 GMT -5
"I do understand the line between life and death is not fixed, and science is able to move the natural boundaries."
What powers of science do you hold to be unnatural?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2016 21:14:41 GMT -5
Again, the thing to understand about the experiences that matter to us here is that clinical death HAS OCCURRED. As Dennis is trying to explain, the attending doctors do not understand how they can happen. There simply is no reasonable brain-based explanation yet, because to the best of our understanding, the brain cannot form memories while it not functioning, and if it is functioning, it is doing so without any measurable electrical activity.
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Post by xna on Jan 10, 2016 21:14:58 GMT -5
"I do understand the line between life and death is not fixed, and science is able to move the natural boundaries." What powers of science do you hold to be unnatural? As far as I know, there are no unnatural powers. Quantum entanglement now looks like a "unnatural power", but I expect there will be a satisfying natural explanation. I was thinking about devices like a AED - Automated External Defibrillator, or a pacemaker which if but for them death would surely occur. They move the point of a natural death by extending life.
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Post by Lee on Jan 10, 2016 21:43:44 GMT -5
No one can define a natural motion from an unnatural one. One what basis is any motion said to be natural? There is none. Some people presume to know. They stake their claim upon death. Why?
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Post by xna on Jan 10, 2016 21:50:53 GMT -5
Again, the thing to understand about the experiences that matter to us here is that clinical death HAS OCCURRED. As Dennis is trying to explain, the attending doctors do not understand how they can happen. There simply is no reasonable brain-based explanation yet, because to the best of our understanding, the brain cannot form memories while it not functioning, and if it is functioning, it is doing so without any measurable electrical activity. Perhaps part of the confusion comes from thinking about "the point when death has occurred" as a fixed definable biological point. There is a fixed clinical definition of death, but it is used out of utility in medicine. Consider the rapid advances in synthetic biology, our definition of life is rapidly changing. When the "genes of life" were in the computer, was it alive or dead? www.ted.com/talks/craig_venter_unveils_synthetic_life?language=en
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Post by xna on Jan 10, 2016 21:54:30 GMT -5
No one can define a natural motion from an unnatural one. One what basis is any motion said to be natural? There is none. Some people presume to know. They stake their claim upon death. Why? I don't know what an unnatural motion is. Newton and Einstein explained motion.
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Post by Lee on Jan 10, 2016 21:59:36 GMT -5
Right. There's no basis to determine an ADE is unnatural.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2016 22:02:37 GMT -5
Perhaps part of the confusion comes from thinking about "the point when death has occurred" as a fixed definable biological point. There is a fixed clinical definition of death, but it is used out of utility in medicine. Yes, I think you are right, XNA. Believers want to make sure we emphasize that the experiencers are dead. Skeptics want to make sure we use a definition of death that emphasizes the experiencers are still alive. To me, neither is important; I don't care whether they're dead or alive. The important thing is cessation of activity of the body, because that is where the mystery comes in. How are people forming memories and experiencing events when their brain isn't working? Let's drop the word "death" from all conversation and just discuss the mystery like adults.
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Post by xna on Jan 10, 2016 22:05:36 GMT -5
Right. There's no basis to determine an ADE is unnatural. An AED is natural, as opposed to supernatural. It is a man made product, not found in nature. Do we agree? ADE - now that's different.
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Post by xna on Jan 10, 2016 22:26:22 GMT -5
Perhaps part of the confusion comes from thinking about "the point when death has occurred" as a fixed definable biological point. There is a fixed clinical definition of death, but it is used out of utility in medicine. How are people forming memories and experiencing events when their brain isn't working? Let's drop the word "death" from all conversation and just discuss the mystery like adults. I expect no memories are formed when the brain is not working, but memories form after the brain starts working again. We know our memories are not as reliable as we think. I would expect memories formed soon after a NDE to be even less reliable. I am satisfied with saying we don't fully understand NDE. I don't see any reason to add something supernatural to the mix if it can not be confirmed by science.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 10, 2016 23:50:38 GMT -5
Whatever another calls it, the experience I had was in a saved eternity, being able to fully understand it then, unable to explain it since. The same voice heard years before when struck as a pedestrian by a 1976 Chev Monte Carlo driven by an intoxicated man, spoke again giving me the choice to remain or go back. Near death, after death, in the body, out of the body, I have neither any idea nor explanation. Others have called it a near death experience, however, it is not what I perceived.
My perception was being somewhere grand, yet unaware of any others, as the perception was of something only beginning. Upon choosing to return for others sake, immediately I saw my fevered, diseased body laying on the bed, with my weeping wife begging me to return. It was only upon entering my body that the intense perception of pain returned,
Yeah, yeah, I know all the opinions of those not experiencing it, and even though purposing to remain silent about it, felt compelled to relate this much once again. It has been decades, yet the memory remains vivid.
Immediately, then, this account was told mental health Drs. who did not believe it was merely a hallucination, rather an "unexplainable" experience. The experts in this forum, never experiencing such a thing, quickly stated as fact my unbalanced state of mind brought on some sort of hallucination. Needless to say, their opinions from that point forward became just that to me, at the advice of advanced mental health specialists and professionals. I do not discount your experience of what happened to you, Dennis. Neither would I say that your experience was due to an "unbalanced" mind.
In fact I would say that it was the way that a "balanced" mind might very well be expected to act when it was under the stress of shutting down. The same as my own mind reacted when there was edema pressing on my optic nerve which caused visual hallucinations.
To me, the difference in our experiences is our interpretation of the cause of the experiences.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 10, 2016 23:54:31 GMT -5
no problem dm, I already suggested an alternative acronym. We don't need an alternative acronym.
NDE's is a perfectly reasonable acronym.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 11, 2016 0:21:26 GMT -5
Semantics be damned. When you are dead you are dead. It doesn't really matter what you want to call it. By this do you mean that "you" cease to exist? You do not know this. This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But, be clear that it is only your opinion. I am of the opinion that *I* will never be more alive than at the moment of my death. In the absence of data, I go with the wisdom traditions. Yes, that is what I mean, that "I" will cease to exist.
It is that absence of any data to the contrary that causes me to arrive at that conclusion.
When you or anyone else can provide factual data that there is a "mystic inner core within ourselves," as stated by the ideas in Wisdom Tradition then I will re-consider my "opinion" as you call it.
So far, I see no such evidence, just as I also see no evidence for the the paranormal being called "god."
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 11, 2016 1:12:47 GMT -5
Again, the thing to understand about the experiences that matter to us here is that clinical death HAS OCCURRED. As Dennis is trying to explain, the attending doctors do not understand how they can happen. There simply is no reasonable brain-based explanation yet, because to the best of our understanding, the brain cannot form memories while it not functioning, and if it is functioning, it is doing so without any measurable electrical activity. That statement, -"without any measurable electrical activity," is the caveat that we should be looking at. At one time we weren't even able to record any electrical activity of the brain.
We could only observe "clinical death" from the boundaries of what we knew at the time. Whether a person was breathing by "seeing" their chest move. We could also "feel" the heart beating.
Now we can do an Electrocardiogram, ECG & see a graph of the heart beating , we also have electroencephalography where we can see the brain waves.
At any where along that time line we would have used what we had t hand to determine "clinical death."
Perhaps if we would do an MRI of the brain as a person was dying we might be able to see beyond even electroencephalography and see something biological going on.
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Post by joanna on Jan 11, 2016 2:35:03 GMT -5
It is simply the fear of death which generates false interpretations of the impact of stressful and acute traumatic events on human neurophysiology. Why this bizarre resistance to sourcing evidence? Step One: accept there is no afterlife Step Two: do the best we can with this our one and only life Step Three: find real peace by accepting that death is as an uncomplicated non=period of non-existence Repeat above steps until they absorbed
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 11, 2016 3:29:08 GMT -5
It is simply the fear of death which generates false interpretations of the impact of stressful and acute traumatic events on human neurophysiology. Why this bizarre resistance to sourcing evidence? Step One: accept there is no afterlife Step Two: do the best we can with this our one and only life Step Three: find real peace by accepting that death is as an uncomplicated non=period of non-existence Repeat above steps until they absorbed Thank you, joanna.
You have got it in a nutshell.
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Post by Hmmmm on Jan 11, 2016 3:59:22 GMT -5
Pray tell change step one due to a special personal experience assuring that there is an afterlife Keep feeding that revelation until it occurs! ?
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Post by bubbles on Jan 11, 2016 6:18:48 GMT -5
Again, the thing to understand about the experiences that matter to us here is that clinical death HAS OCCURRED. As Dennis is trying to explain, the attending doctors do not understand how they can happen. There simply is no reasonable brain-based explanation yet, because to the best of our understanding, the brain cannot form memories while it not functioning, and if it is functioning, it is doing so without any measurable electrical activity. We (some believers) accept that our soul(mind will emotions) and spirit (invisible body) is connected to the heart and mind (physical body) When we dream our subconcsious is active. Thinking with the mind continues during sleep. For me anyway. Once the physical body has ceased to exist I dont have problems accepting my soul and spirit continue functioning together. There are too many voices that have told of NDE . If we choose to ignore or accept another persons word. That is our perogative. DD maybe the spirit and souls energy has not yet been measured. Maybe we just think there is no power. Then we read in scripture of the word being powerful enough to ' divide soul and spirit'.... It cant be the brain it must be the link of the silver cord between the 3 bodies. The soul and spirit have the memory. Its a bit like having an SD card in a phone..lol Maybe they should be looking at that other brain..penial gland or the solar plexus
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Post by rational on Jan 11, 2016 9:40:50 GMT -5
We (some believers) accept that our soul(mind will emotions) and spirit (invisible body) is connected to the heart and mind (physical body) What happens when a person is given a mechanical heart? It is generally accepted that during sleep the conscious brain is not active and not thinking. It is pretty much the definition of sleep. Functioning where?
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Post by rational on Jan 11, 2016 9:48:07 GMT -5
Perhaps part of the confusion comes from thinking about "the point when death has occurred" as a fixed definable biological point. There is a fixed clinical definition of death, but it is used out of utility in medicine. Yes, I think you are right, XNA. Believers want to make sure we emphasize that the experiencers are dead. Skeptics want to make sure we use a definition of death that emphasizes the experiencers are still alive. To me, neither is important; I don't care whether they're dead or alive. The important thing is cessation of activity of the body, because that is where the mystery comes in. How are people forming memories and experiencing events when their brain isn't working? Let's drop the word "death" from all conversation and just discuss the mystery like adults. The phrase "brain isn't working" might be the key. For a long time no one was sure how anesthesia worked. It was not at all like the person was asleep. For those who have had anesthesia administrated you are in the present and then, with no understanding of the past time, you are back in the present. Research has shown that the brain does not shut down but simply the various parts stop communicating. It does not mean that that parts of the brain are not receiving messages as usual.
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