|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 20, 2015 10:38:02 GMT -5
I think many thoughtful Christians would agree that prayer does more for the pray-er than the pray-ee. For example, I've heard at convention that the best way to learn to love your enemy is to begin to pray for him.
It might be that for many of us, entering into this discussion means setting aside unrealistic expectations. If so, quit worrying about whether prayer can break the natural laws or push the probabilities. Think instead about what it CAN do in your experience.
So, what does prayer accomplish, who does it work for, and what does this say about God?
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 20, 2015 11:26:45 GMT -5
Prayer works for those it does, and I'm not sure what that says about God except that you can go to the bank with a pure motive. I don't think every answered prayer has been from God, and that's a mystery in itself. Praying for good things is not only good for the prayer, it is his/her spiritual constitution.
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Dec 20, 2015 11:49:06 GMT -5
I used to believe in God and I used to pray. No more. I do, however, spend time in quiet contemplation. Since losing my faith, I have come to believe that it is possible to feel compassion for pretty much any other human being; I strive for this. If it is not immediately achievable, I think of spending time in quiet contemplation as one of the keys to eventually getting there.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Dec 20, 2015 12:45:21 GMT -5
I think many thoughtful Christians would agree that prayer does more for the pray-er than the pray-ee. For example, I've heard at convention that the best way to learn to love your enemy is to begin to pray for him. It might be that for many of us, entering into this discussion means setting aside unrealistic expectations. If so, quit worrying about whether prayer can break the natural laws or push the probabilities. Think instead about what it CAN do in your experience. So, what does prayer accomplish, who does it work for, and what does this say about God? Ive responded oodles of times on tmb re this topic. As a 2x2 my prayers were short sometimes desperate pleading. As I grew my prayer life answers increased. I attended churches where prayer was foundational to every area of life. Not about which milk to choose for breaky. Important things like personalitie conflicts with family members, work, health, everything. What prayer accomplishes for me is peace hope love acceptance good things. No prayer is not answered every times. Many Christians beg and plead. I don't do that any more i take authority over the problem prayer according to the inspiration of the holy spirit. Stand on the prayers prayed and wait for the breakthrough. When I pray because of the yrs of answered prayer I am full of expectation full of hope and trust and I do not doubt. In other words my faith is in the power of my God. I dont waver and if it looks like it aint going to happen I don't become double minded. People hate it when I speak this. They become demanding and turn into accusers if they are not already. My question to you is. If it hasnt happened for you and you dont understaand why. Go to the source. That would be the biggest key. Just a thought. Hey mate you could ask some of my christian friends on fb about this question. By private message. The 2 miracles ive mentioned on here. They are both young. What it says to me about god is this. He is faithful even when I am not. I can trust him. He is powerful. I think prayer works for people who have learned how to pray. Learned the importance of reconciliation with their maker. That may sound arrogant. It is the truth of my observation and life knowledge. I dont fully understand how nor even why. That is not important to me. I believe some scriptures wholeheartedly.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 20, 2015 13:03:54 GMT -5
It is indisputable that prayer works. <<throws the gauntlet down >>
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 13:16:56 GMT -5
I think many thoughtful Christians would agree that prayer does more for the pray-er than the pray-ee. For example, I've heard at convention that the best way to learn to love your enemy is to begin to pray for him. It might be that for many of us, entering into this discussion means setting aside unrealistic expectations. If so, quit worrying about whether prayer can break the natural laws or push the probabilities. Think instead about what it CAN do in your experience. So, what does prayer accomplish, who does it work for, and what does this say about God? I think I see 5 questions here. 1. Does prayer work? I've come to realise that this is a meaningless question. If I pray for rain and it rains heavily for a week, who is to say that my prayer hasn't worked. Similarly if I pray for rain and it doesn't rain for a year, while it is clear that my individual prayer hasn't worked, it doesn't mean that prayer doesn't (sometimes) work. 2. What can prayer do in your (my) experience? Prayer can help increase one's faith in God. Prayer can help persuade people that God is really there whether he is or not. Prayer can help convince people that God is a listening God whether he actually listens or not. Prayer can lead people to believe that God cares about us even if he doesn't. What prayer absolutely can't do is lead to the re-growing of your missing leg if you have the misfortune to lose it in a motorcycle accident; no matter how sincere your prayer is, or how good or powerful your God is. 3. What does prayer accomplish? Prayer can bring great hope and comfort to (i) those who pray and (ii) to those who are prayed for (providing those being prayed for know they are being prayed for and believe in the power of prayer). 4. Who does it work for? Prayer sometimes works (or at least appears to work) for those who (i) pray and (ii) believe that it works. For those who don't pray, it doesn't work. Similarly for those who don't believe prayer works, it doesn't work. 5. What does this say about God? I don't think this says anything about God. Prayer is all about the one doing the praying irrespective of which God one is praying to. Personally I never prayed to gods such as Allah or Zeus or Jehovah but I realise now that the outcome of my prayers would not have been any different had I prayed to one of these gods rather than the Christian one. Matt10
|
|
|
Post by xna on Dec 20, 2015 13:51:48 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 14:00:50 GMT -5
I don't think every answered prayer has been from God, and that's a mystery in itself. This raises a number of interesting questions. a) if it is not God who answers these 'answered prayers', who [or what] do you think might be responsible for [or the cause of] them being answered? b) what other possible explanations have you considered and then discounted as being reasonable explanations for these 'answered prayers' being answered? c) do you have any way of accurately determining which 'answered prayers' have been answered by God and which 'answered prayers' have been answered due to factors/reasons other than God? Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 14:23:33 GMT -5
It is indisputable that prayer works. <<throws the gauntlet down >> Here's an example of prayer working. Matt10 Ask Allah, He WILL Help YouBy Wael Abdelgawad | IslamicSunrays.comIf you ask Allah for guidance sincerely, believing in Him and trusting in Him, he WILL guide you. If you approach Him with humility and faith and ask Him for help, He WILL help you. “And your Lord says: “Call on Me; I will answer you.” (Quran 40:60). I personally have experienced this in my life again and again. Allah is real and miracles do happen.
I remember one time when I was deeply confused about something that mattered very much to me. I prayed to Allah late at night, and began crying. After my prayer, I laid down right there on the musalla (prayer rug), and fell asleep, and BAM, here comes one of the most powerful dreams I have ever had, with a very clear answer to my problem. Then the next night I’m outside and feeling some doubts again, and all of a sudden I see a tremendous meteor go flaming across the sky right in front of me. I was amazed and I laughed out loud because Allah could not have made it any clearer.
I’m not promising you a dream and a meteor (smile). But Allah’s promise is true. He WILL answer you, maybe in ways that you see clearly, or in ways that you don’t. The answer might be to protect you from harm, or to give you something better than what you requested. Or the answer might only be a feeling of faith and tranquility in your heart that allows you to move forward confidently. He WILL help you.islamicsunrays.com/ask-allah-he-will-help-you/
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Dec 21, 2015 1:52:38 GMT -5
Simply semantics: praying is synonymous with hoping and wishing. Life serves up challenges and obstacles and some are insurmountable and others not. The answer to Why won't god heal amputees? is because imaginary beings have no powers.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 21, 2015 2:35:52 GMT -5
Simply semantics: praying is synonymous with hoping and wishing. Life serves up challenges and obstacles and some are insurmountable and others not. The answer to Why won't god heal amputees? is because imaginary beings have no powers. God normally answers prayers proportionately with the probability that the request could be answered by any other method.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 21, 2015 11:07:27 GMT -5
I don't think every answered prayer has been from God, and that's a mystery in itself. This raises a number of interesting questions. a) if it is not God who answers these 'answered prayers', who [or what] do you think might be responsible for [or the cause of] them being answered? b) what other possible explanations have you considered and then discounted as being reasonable explanations for these 'answered prayers' being answered? c) do you have any way of accurately determining which 'answered prayers' have been answered by God and which 'answered prayers' have been answered due to factors/reasons other than God? Matt10 I will respond generally with the following assertions. I don't know anything specific about the details of evil. 1. We have freewill 2. Freewill requires agency. Conventionally-speaking, this means the conduct of our bodies and our discretion over our behavior. But based on an assumption that prayers have been answered for both good and nefarious requests, this agency must involve an unconventional component as well. 3. Why does God allow access to evil agency? I don't know. My study of evil is limited to gathering an accurate assessment of the nature of reality. I'm sure people from 2x2ism or JW's or scientology, or various political factions and corporations... you name it, individuals comprising these cloisters have had their prayers answered to the overall benefit and solidification of the organization, seemingly without any provident consideration for whether the organization is a net asset or liability to the interests of all men. Other than to conclude that this is a dimension of our freewill, other than hoping for an epochal conclusion to this meta-physical tension, suffice it to say we are living a mystery.
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Dec 21, 2015 11:17:10 GMT -5
“Prayer” is a very tricky topic for me. I confess it is a concept/ritual that I have never understood, even when I was professing. I very seldom use the word. For example I do not say to someone, I will pray for you, rather, I will usually say “I will be thinking of you.” For me thinking of someone is more sincere and personal than the detached expression “I will pray for you” which suggests “I will get in touch with an intercessor on your behalf.”
Prayer has always implied to me a formalized petition from a subject to an authority capable of response to the petition. In the spiritual realm the “authority” most likely would be God. For an agnostic this presents a problem, an agnostic professes no certain knowledge regarding the existence/non-existence of God. For me, personally, I have an experience based belief in a transcendent consciousness, but I have no certain knowledge. To whom then should I address my petition?
Assuming that a higher consciousness does exist, what is the foundation for believing that this transcendent entity would have cause to respond to my petition? (I do not subscribe to a “quid pro quo” arrangement . . . . “I’ll do your bidding if you will satisfy my desires and needs”)
What language/vocabulary is to be used when communicating with a transcendent entity? In the absence of knowledge, I am uncomfortable with the assumption that human languages expressing human concepts are an appropriate “coin of the realm”. Do the concepts “give”, “forgive”, “grant”, “lead”, etc. have meaning in a transcendent context? I don’t know.
My tendency is to steer clear of the word and concept of prayer. I tend more toward the approach mentioned by Matisse above: quiet reflection, meditation. In times of gratitude, fear or need, I derive greater benefit by turning “inward” rather than “outward”. When I feel gratitude, I find it useful to pause and attempt to integrate that feeling into my conscious awareness and thereby preserve the warmth and comfort over time. When I feel fear, it is useful for me to shift focus from the objective awareness of discomfort toward the more subjective/amorphous background of causes and remedies. And when I feel myself in the clutches of irrational desire or the need for immediate gratification, I try to find some quiet time to sort-out the differences between “I want” and “I need”.
Reflection and meditation raise interesting questions. Is God “out-there” or “in-here”? Is the true nature of “prayer” the experience of sincerely confronting one’s own wants and needs and are “answered prayers” the experience of peace-of-mind for self and compassion towards others?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 14:01:39 GMT -5
This raises a number of interesting questions. a) if it is not God who answers these 'answered prayers', who [or what] do you think might be responsible for [or the cause of] them being answered? b) what other possible explanations have you considered and then discounted as being reasonable explanations for these 'answered prayers' being answered? c) do you have any way of accurately determining which 'answered prayers' have been answered by God and which 'answered prayers' have been answered due to factors/reasons other than God? Matt10 I will respond generally with the following assertions. I don't know anything specific about the details of evil. 1. We have freewill 2. Freewill requires agency. Conventionally-speaking, this means the conduct of our bodies and our discretion over our behavior. But based on an assumption that prayers have been answered for both good and nefarious requests, this agency must involve an unconventional component as well. 3. Why does God allow access to evil agency? I don't know. My study of evil is limited to gathering an accurate assessment of the nature of reality. I'm sure people from 2x2ism or JW's or scientology, or various political factions and corporations... you name it, individuals comprising these cloisters have had their prayers answered to the overall benefit and solidification of the organization, seemingly without any provident consideration for whether the organization is a net asset or liability to the interests of all men. Other than to conclude that this is a dimension of our freewill, other than hoping for an epochal conclusion to this meta-physical tension, suffice it to say we are living a mystery. i have to confess that I find your response somewhat bemusing. I can't seem to be able to make any link whatsoever between my questions and your response. Is it possible you were intending to post this in response to a post by someone else on an entirely different topic? Matt10
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 21, 2015 14:33:50 GMT -5
I will respond generally with the following assertions. I don't know anything specific about the details of evil. 1. We have freewill 2. Freewill requires agency. Conventionally-speaking, this means the conduct of our bodies and our discretion over our behavior. But based on an assumption that prayers have been answered for both good and nefarious requests, this agency must involve an unconventional component as well. 3. Why does God allow access to evil agency? I don't know. My study of evil is limited to gathering an accurate assessment of the nature of reality. I'm sure people from 2x2ism or JW's or scientology, or various political factions and corporations... you name it, individuals comprising these cloisters have had their prayers answered to the overall benefit and solidification of the organization, seemingly without any provident consideration for whether the organization is a net asset or liability to the interests of all men. Other than to conclude that this is a dimension of our freewill, other than hoping for an epochal conclusion to this meta-physical tension, suffice it to say we are living a mystery. i have to confess that I find your response somewhat bemusing. I can't seem to be able to make any link whatsoever between my questions and your response. Is it possible you were intending to post this in response to a post by someone else on an entirely different topic? Matt10 Matt, I doubt that Lee can explain his own post
Lee, maybe you could translate your post into something that we can understand; -that is, if you can understand it yourself.
|
|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 21, 2015 19:05:39 GMT -5
Well, this is devolving quickly into an argument between believers and non-believers. What an idiot I am for not realizing the obvious before starting this topic: Given our common background, everybody who prays will swear it works and everybody who doesn't will say it's because it doesn't work. Maybe I can give an example of how I pray, because I had to learn all over again after rejecting conservative Christian beliefs. From one of my books:
"I find that many liberal Christian authors avoid the topic of prayer, not knowing quite how to handle it or explain it, so let me tell you what works for me. I pray not to the creator/Father, nor to God’s incarnational version, the human/Son, but to the third part of the Trinity … that illusive, mysterious Spirit. In the Bible, the Spirit is the carrier of our prayers to God, interceding for us even when we know not how to pray. I find it easiest if I do not try to personify the Spirit. With this focus, I feel silly praying selfish petitions—a universal Spirit somehow transcends my selfish ambitions—so my prayer naturally steers toward renewing my purpose to contribute to the Kingdom of God. The words of the Lord’s Prayer are a perfect utterance, so we’ll talk more about this simple prayer shortly.
"I close my eyes in shallow meditation until I feel the Spirit breathing in and around me, like Wind. I breathe God in and out, for breath is merely Wind inside me. Breathing in hope, breathing out love, adding my breath to the Wind, I share in the chorus of the Spirit. Then I open my eyes to see the leaves rustling, the grass bending, the living creation responding."
Yes, it works.
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Dec 21, 2015 19:30:08 GMT -5
Hi DD, I enjoyed your last post. I wonder if you could talk a little more about "renewing my purpose to contribute to the Kingdom of God." How might you compare and contrast your purpose statement with a statement that expressed an intention to "help alleviate suffering in the world"? Do you subscribe to the notion of "joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world" or do you prefer to focus on the Kingdom of God?
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 21, 2015 19:49:59 GMT -5
I enjoyed your last post, too, DD. It's kind of what I meant when I wrote that it's indisputable that prayer works. The question is in defining what "it works" means. As a non-believer, I don't believe it works in the sense of influencing God to do something he otherwise may or may not do. But I do believe it works in the sense of changing the frame of mind of the person doing the praying. Or, what you said. Very poetically, I might add! I simply love this: "I close my eyes in shallow meditation until I feel the Spirit breathing in and around me, like Wind. I breathe God in and out, for breath is merely Wind inside me. Breathing in hope, breathing out love, adding my breath to the Wind, I share in the chorus of the Spirit. Then I open my eyes to see the leaves rustling, the grass bending, the living creation responding." You should write a book.
|
|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 21, 2015 20:32:51 GMT -5
Hi DD, I enjoyed your last post. I wonder if you could talk a little more about "renewing my purpose to contribute to the Kingdom of God." How might you compare and contrast your purpose statement with a statement that expressed an intention to "help alleviate suffering in the world"? Do you subscribe to the notion of "joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world" or do you prefer to focus on the Kingdom of God? If I understand Campbell right, "joyfully participate in the sorrows of the world" is more introspective than the Kingdom that Jesus envisioned. Jesus would say that our joy is found in purpose/participation, doing what little we can to share in and alleviate the suffering.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Dec 21, 2015 21:13:46 GMT -5
It is indisputable that prayer works. I agree - if the prayer is vague enough and not given a time frame and the observer is not too particular when it comes to claiming whether the prayer was answered or not. Some have claimed that they prayed for "A" and then a few years later "B" happened and they decided that it was what god thought should have been prayed for so it was counted as an answered prayer. Selection bias is a prayer's best friend!
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Dec 21, 2015 22:16:55 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 21, 2015 22:18:07 GMT -5
"I have to confess that I find your response somewhat bemusing. I can't seem to be able to make any link whatsoever between my questions and your response. Is it possible you were intending to post this in response to a post by someone else on an entirely different topic? Matt10"
I don't have any pat answers as to who might answer prayers besides God. I was simply observing the fact that people have prayers answered pursuant to their allegiance to political and religious structures whose beneficence is dubious.
|
|
|
Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 21, 2015 22:44:09 GMT -5
I envision God in pantheistic terms, yeah, so far it's about the only way I can relate to "God" discussions. But I remain agnostic; mostly, I just admit how little I know, which is why I wanted to do these threads.
|
|
|
Post by Yes on Dec 22, 2015 5:29:09 GMT -5
I envision God in pantheistic terms, yeah, so far it's about the only way I can relate to "God" discussions. But I remain agnostic; mostly, I just admit how little I know, which is why I wanted to do these threads. another form of this question is: Do we believe G-D is able to answer a prayer. Yes Do we believe G-D answered His sons prayers according to His own will or His sons will?
|
|
|
Post by Yes on Dec 22, 2015 5:37:13 GMT -5
I do not claim to know very much of G-D But the very little I feel , it creates an awe experience
|
|
|
Post by Yes on Dec 22, 2015 5:52:26 GMT -5
The awe experience causes me to bow and thank Him
|
|
|
Post by Yes on Dec 22, 2015 6:03:17 GMT -5
We must believe that He is, and He is a rewarder(answered) of those that earnestly seek Him
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Dec 22, 2015 6:20:48 GMT -5
It is indisputable that prayer works. I agree - if the prayer is vague enough and not given a time frame and the observer is not too particular when it comes to claiming whether the prayer was answered or not. Some have claimed that they prayed for "A" and then a few years later "B" happened and they decided that it was what god thought should have been prayed for so it was counted as an answered prayer. Selection bias is a prayer's best friend! I was thinking more along the lines that prayer works in its effect on the pray-er's heart rate, respiration, sense of peace, mental focus, etc.
|
|