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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 22:33:27 GMT -5
You're assuming that the goal is to increase the size of the fund. I doubt that is the case. In one jurisdiction, the money was dispersed at the end of conventions each year so it wouldn't accumulate. That seems pretty scriptural to me. This is similar to what I am aware of - end of year after convention all money accumulated by individuals during the year would be handed to the overseer and then each person would be given a small amount to start the new year. What the overseer would do with the money was no one's business. How it all works today I'm not sure. i know that monies surplus to requirements here has gone to the red cross |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 22:37:30 GMT -5
This is similar to what I am aware of - end of year after convention all money accumulated by individuals during the year would be handed to the overseer and then each person would be given a small amount to start the new year. What the overseer would do with the money was no one's business. How it all works today I'm not sure. As far as I know, it still works that way in most places, more or less. However, the money that circulates between the friends and field workers is really a separate system than the church funds which go directly to the overseer through large donations, often estate bequeaths. Two different systems. Whether the overseer skims some off the annual convention redistribution will never be known except by the overseer, but I suspect that is not a significant amount of money. Even if 20 workers came into convention with $1000 left over from their fields, it's a drop in the bucket even if the overseer skims off half of it. That part of the system is of little consequence in the big picture. The opportunity for fraud, theft and corruption exists with the big trustee accounts which can rake in hundreds of thousands of $'s at a time which are directed to the overseer throughout the year. yea but what good is it to an overseer to keep or skim of monies? where can he use it for himself? |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 8, 2016 23:38:39 GMT -5
Virgo, if Robert Barbour was still alive you could ask him.
Also you could ask around about the shenanigins that Arthur Lomas and Rex Smith got up to in various parts of India and Asia. Don't be shy now, ask around.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 0:33:30 GMT -5
Virgo, if Robert Barbour was still alive you could ask him. Also you could ask around about the shenanigins that Arthur Lomas and Rex Smith got up to in various parts of India and Asia. Don't be shy now, ask around. Rex is a very good friend of mine so i'll see what he has to say don't see anything in his present life style that would suggest any misappropriation of any funds in fact the opposite |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 0:35:10 GMT -5
Virgo, if Robert Barbour was still alive you could ask him. Also you could ask around about the shenanigins that Arthur Lomas and Rex Smith got up to in various parts of India and Asia. Don't be shy now, ask around. what were these shenanigans? i'm sure you would have some sort of evidence |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 9, 2016 0:42:50 GMT -5
Ask him, he will know what you are on about.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 0:51:36 GMT -5
Ask him, he will know what you are on about. i asked you, do you have a problem with that? |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 9, 2016 0:53:33 GMT -5
It's better you get it from the horses mouth. ASk him why he was sent home from India?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 4:58:02 GMT -5
I have been asked to post this on behalf of someone knowledgeable about the accountability aspect of financial matters of the church. There will be no responses to questions from the original writer, so the information will have to be accepted or rejected as is. In my personal opinion, this information is 100% credible and is important to the discussion. Your post gives good reasons why there is a very very strong need for transparency and control of church funds. If honesty is the best policy, there is nothing wrong with transparency and nothing to hide; everything should be above board, I say. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 0:05:26 GMT -5
Your post gives good reasons why there is a very very strong need for transparency and control of church funds. If honesty is the best policy, there is nothing wrong with transparency and nothing to hide; everything should be above board, I say. yes i agree honesty is the best policy but i fear it maybe a legisticle nightmare, does this mean also those workers who receive goods like shoes or maybe a coat would have to itemize with the cost there of. how far would this have to go? do they have to have receipts for the like of a cup of coffee etc ? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 3:52:05 GMT -5
If honesty is the best policy, there is nothing wrong with transparency and nothing to hide; everything should be above board, I say. yes i agree honesty is the best policy but i fear it maybe a legisticle nightmare, does this mean also those workers who receive goods like shoes or maybe a coat would have to itemize with the cost there of. how far would this have to go? do they have to have receipts for the like of a cup of coffee etc ? No, of course it does not mean that, other ordinary folks do not have to account for everything, little things, so why would anyone demand or expect it from workers. I will repeat here once again: workers are human just like the rest of us, they are not perfect, and they themselves know it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 19:17:01 GMT -5
yes i agree honesty is the best policy but i fear it maybe a legisticle nightmare, does this mean also those workers who receive goods like shoes or maybe a coat would have to itemize with the cost there of. how far would this have to go? do they have to have receipts for the like of a cup of coffee etc ? I don't think too many 2x2s would be advocating this . Non 2x2s would be more inclined to suggest this , but you have to remember they are possibly used to other church financing models. This thread and some others on the TMB are looking particularly at the transparency of church funds ( arising from things like people's estates left to the church), as opposed to the meeting of day to day worker needs in their fields (which you are basically describing). It is the church funds which is of greater concern to 2x2s, - see examples in bgm's excellent post near the top of this page. |
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Post by bgm on Jan 10, 2016 21:25:00 GMT -5
yes i agree honesty is the best policy but i fear it maybe a legisticle nightmare, does this mean also those workers who receive goods like shoes or maybe a coat would have to itemize with the cost there of. how far would this have to go? do they have to have receipts for the like of a cup of coffee etc ? I don't think too many 2x2s would be advocating this . Non 2x2s would be more inclined to suggest this , but you have to remember they are possibly used to other church financing models. This thread and some others on the TMB are looking particularly at the transparency of church funds ( arising from things like people's estates left to the church), as opposed to the meeting of day to day worker needs in their fields (which you are basically describing). It is the church funds which is of greater concern to 2x2s, - see examples in bgm's excellent post near the top of this page. Exactly. The field worker money system not only seems to work reasonably well, there is not enough money in that system to be problematic. Small amounts of money are given to field workers and they use it for personal uses. Nothing wrong with that and no more accountability or transparency is needed. As I suggested in another post, money has to be seen as two nearly separate systems. The two systems only converge one day/year at convention. Workers generally don't have bank accounts or very much money for that matter. However, large donations go to the overseers who give it to trustee friends. In some cases, $millions can be involved and in a lot of cases, it is hundreds of $thousands. This is where controls are needed through accountability and transparency. There are some cases of improprieties known out there. However, the system is so vulnerable and opaque that what we know about is probably just the tip of the iceberg. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 22:35:25 GMT -5
I don't think too many 2x2s would be advocating this . Non 2x2s would be more inclined to suggest this , but you have to remember they are possibly used to other church financing models. This thread and some others on the TMB are looking particularly at the transparency of church funds ( arising from things like people's estates left to the church), as opposed to the meeting of day to day worker needs in their fields (which you are basically describing). It is the church funds which is of greater concern to 2x2s, - see examples in bgm's excellent post near the top of this page. Exactly. The field worker money system not only seems to work reasonably well, there is not enough money in that system to be problematic. Small amounts of money are given to field workers and they use it for personal uses. Nothing wrong with that and no more accountability or transparency is needed. As I suggested in another post, money has to be seen as two nearly separate systems. The two systems only converge one day/year at convention. Workers generally don't have bank accounts or very much money for that matter. However, large donations go to the overseers who give it to trustee friends. In some cases, $millions can be involved and in a lot of cases, it is hundreds of $thousands. This is where controls are needed through accountability and transparency. There are some cases of improprieties known out there. However, the system is so vulnerable and opaque that what we know about is probably just the tip of the iceberg. i notice that you used the word probably, not sure? maybe there is no iceberg? it is a big accusation to suggest it even if by probably |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2016 6:00:29 GMT -5
This thread is an opportunity for trustees of F&W financial accounts, or any senior workers/overseers, to publicly demonstrate the accountability that we believe befits followers of Christ who have responsibility to administer the financial matters of the church. This thread can remain on top here for the year, and let's see if anyone with financial responsibilities is prepared to be open and accountable with how the Friends money is used. I promise that all who do demonstrate accountability here will be treated with total respect for your courage and honesty. admin I have been asked to post this on behalf of someone knowledgeable about the accountability aspect of financial matters of the church. There will be no responses to questions from the original writer, so the information will have to be accepted or rejected as is. In my personal opinion, this information is 100% credible and is important to the discussion. "I am interested in the purpose of this thread and have waited some time before considering replying.
I am not a trustee but am closely related to someone who has served in that capacity within the church.
One of the troubles you highlighted is what is fact and what is fiction. No one other than the overseer knows the full picture but I will jot down a number of things I am aware of and add a note about the level of certainty I have on each.
By the way I am not prepared to be pressed for any further details on these, as I am not prepared to put any individual at risk of identification.
I) Cheques would arrive from time to time (from another trustee) that would require a signature from the trustee I knew. The 2 signatures were presumably there for safeguard of assets purposes (This is 100% certain)
II) Sometimes assets left to the work are ‘awkward’ and pose problems to the church and overseers. I know of a case where a very valuable ‘awkward’ asset (worth a 6 figure sum) was simply handed on to one of the saints (not a trustee) and he was given total ownership (with no reciprocal payment). (This is 100% certain)
III) A non-liquid valuable asset was left to the work, who sold it on to one of the friends at a significant discount (This is 100% certain).
IV) A significant amount of the church funds went missing. Church leaders from other parts flew in to get involved. (This is 100% certain)
V) Some assets are not even passed on to the trustees. Another individual (not a trustee) may hold church funds for a significant period of time (decades) while it gradually gets wound down in size. (This is 100% certain). This is likely, in my view, to be unknown to the main fund trustees (I have no idea on the certainty of this last part, but is my belief based on the feel of what I’ve witnessed).
Around transparency, I imagine in any ‘accounts’ , (II) above would not be disclosed at all if the asset is disposed of quickly. I also suggest that (III) would only show up as the amount that was paid for the asset.
For (V) there is a risk this asset mightn’t be shown at all, though it would show up whenever any amounts were handed over in future years (assuming they got added to the trust fund). There is a clear risk though of these assets going missing should the overseer die, if he hasn’t clearly written it down in his records for others to pick up on his death."Sadly , i can verify at least 2 of the types of cases that bgm describes here. I heard these directly from a senior worker. |
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Post by bgm on Jan 11, 2016 19:04:56 GMT -5
Exactly. The field worker money system not only seems to work reasonably well, there is not enough money in that system to be problematic. Small amounts of money are given to field workers and they use it for personal uses. Nothing wrong with that and no more accountability or transparency is needed. As I suggested in another post, money has to be seen as two nearly separate systems. The two systems only converge one day/year at convention. Workers generally don't have bank accounts or very much money for that matter. However, large donations go to the overseers who give it to trustee friends. In some cases, $millions can be involved and in a lot of cases, it is hundreds of $thousands. This is where controls are needed through accountability and transparency. There are some cases of improprieties known out there. However, the system is so vulnerable and opaque that what we know about is probably just the tip of the iceberg. i notice that you used the word probably, not sure? maybe there is no iceberg? it is a big accusation to suggest it even if by probably Relax, it is an analysis of the situation, not an accusation. I would suggest you look up the meaning of "accusation" and then let's talk. I will say this in no uncertain terms though. Statistically speaking, in non-transparent situations like this where incidents of malfeasance are known, the probability is extremely high that there are many more. Yes, many more. The Friends are just human, we all agree with that. Bring in an outside auditor and he/she will tell you that where fraud and theft is made easy, it will occur and it will occur frequently. Even if proper standards are put in place, there will still be some fraud or theft. (In this case, theft is the most likely). However, proper standards will reduce that from occurring and ordinary Friends who give their trust and money to the workers will be better served. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2016 20:21:51 GMT -5
i notice that you used the word probably, not sure? maybe there is no iceberg? it is a big accusation to suggest it even if by probably Relax, it is an analysis of the situation, not an accusation. I would suggest you look up the meaning of "accusation" and then let's talk. I will say this in no uncertain terms though. Statistically speaking, in non-transparent situations like this where incidents of malfeasance are known, the probability is extremely high that there are many more. Yes, many more. The Friends are just human, we all agree with that. Bring in an outside auditor and he/she will tell you that where fraud and theft is made easy, it will occur and it will occur frequently. Even if proper standards are put in place, there will still be some fraud or theft. (In this case, theft is the most likely). However, proper standards will reduce that from occurring and ordinary Friends who give their trust and money to the workers will be better served. funny to me this sure don't just look like an analysis |
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Post by bgm on Jan 11, 2016 20:31:41 GMT -5
Relax, it is an analysis of the situation, not an accusation. I would suggest you look up the meaning of "accusation" and then let's talk. I will say this in no uncertain terms though. Statistically speaking, in non-transparent situations like this where incidents of malfeasance are known, the probability is extremely high that there are many more. Yes, many more. The Friends are just human, we all agree with that. Bring in an outside auditor and he/she will tell you that where fraud and theft is made easy, it will occur and it will occur frequently. Even if proper standards are put in place, there will still be some fraud or theft. (In this case, theft is the most likely). However, proper standards will reduce that from occurring and ordinary Friends who give their trust and money to the workers will be better served. funny to me this sure don't just look like an analysis You should also look up the definition of "analysis". It is something that might benefit your life. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2016 20:37:06 GMT -5
funny to me this sure don't just look like an analysis You should also look up the definition of "analysis". It is something that might benefit your life. it's an examination of data and facts where is your data and facts for |
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Post by bgm on Jan 11, 2016 20:43:06 GMT -5
You should also look up the definition of "analysis". It is something that might benefit your life. it's an examination of data and facts where is your data and facts for The data and facts are on this thread. They are appalling for theft and fraud. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 3:55:42 GMT -5
i notice that you used the word probably, not sure? maybe there is no iceberg? it is a big accusation to suggest it even if by probably Relax, it is an analysis of the situation, not an accusation. I would suggest you look up the meaning of "accusation" and then let's talk. I will say this in no uncertain terms though. Statistically speaking, in non-transparent situations like this where incidents of malfeasance are known, the probability is extremely high that there are many more. Yes, many more. The Friends are just human, we all agree with that. Bring in an outside auditor and he/she will tell you that where fraud and theft is made easy, it will occur and it will occur frequently. Even if proper standards are put in place, there will still be some fraud or theft. (In this case, theft is the most likely). However, proper standards will reduce that from occurring and ordinary Friends who give their trust and money to the workers will be better served. Outsiders reading on this forum might very well get the impression that the focus on money matters in the fellowship far greater exceeds the focus and concentration on matters related to the spiritual side and people's walk and relationship with God. That's not how it should be at all, there is something very wrong. Is it a case of: smoke without fire, or is it a case of: there is never smoke without fire somewhere nearby in the system? Transparancy must prevail in order to squash all this doubt and suspicion and accusations. It is not spiritually healthy at all. A clean up is necessary. Who is it that said: MONEY IS THE ROOT Of ALL EVIL? |
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Post by fred on Jan 12, 2016 5:24:17 GMT -5
I think it was you ...... I believe that the real words went more like "The love of money......."
There is a subtle difference, but a world of difference in meaning.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 7:21:05 GMT -5
I think it was you ...... I believe that the real words went more like "The love of money......." There is a subtle difference, but a world of difference in meaning. I stand corrected, thank you for highlighting the error.  |
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Post by blackwood on Jan 12, 2016 15:27:31 GMT -5
I have been asked to post this on behalf of someone knowledgeable about the accountability aspect of financial matters of the church. There will be no responses to questions from the original writer, so the information will have to be accepted or rejected as is. In my personal opinion, this information is 100% credible and is important to the discussion. "I am interested in the purpose of this thread and have waited some time before considering replying.
I am not a trustee but am closely related to someone who has served in that capacity within the church.
One of the troubles you highlighted is what is fact and what is fiction. No one other than the overseer knows the full picture but I will jot down a number of things I am aware of and add a note about the level of certainty I have on each.
By the way I am not prepared to be pressed for any further details on these, as I am not prepared to put any individual at risk of identification.
I) Cheques would arrive from time to time (from another trustee) that would require a signature from the trustee I knew. The 2 signatures were presumably there for safeguard of assets purposes (This is 100% certain)
II) Sometimes assets left to the work are ‘awkward’ and pose problems to the church and overseers. I know of a case where a very valuable ‘awkward’ asset (worth a 6 figure sum) was simply handed on to one of the saints (not a trustee) and he was given total ownership (with no reciprocal payment). (This is 100% certain)
III) A non-liquid valuable asset was left to the work, who sold it on to one of the friends at a significant discount (This is 100% certain).
IV) A significant amount of the church funds went missing. Church leaders from other parts flew in to get involved. (This is 100% certain)
V) Some assets are not even passed on to the trustees. Another individual (not a trustee) may hold church funds for a significant period of time (decades) while it gradually gets wound down in size. (This is 100% certain). This is likely, in my view, to be unknown to the main fund trustees (I have no idea on the certainty of this last part, but is my belief based on the feel of what I’ve witnessed).
Around transparency, I imagine in any ‘accounts’ , (II) above would not be disclosed at all if the asset is disposed of quickly. I also suggest that (III) would only show up as the amount that was paid for the asset.
For (V) there is a risk this asset mightn’t be shown at all, though it would show up whenever any amounts were handed over in future years (assuming they got added to the trust fund). There is a clear risk though of these assets going missing should the overseer die, if he hasn’t clearly written it down in his records for others to pick up on his death.
"I have been reading through everything here and this post stood out as being the closest to what Admin was looking for when he set up the thread.
Could Admin confirm that what bgm has written is the type of post he has been looking for and, if so, also tell us what he intended should happen now that we have it.
The content does strongly support the case for why transparency is needed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 21:29:08 GMT -5
transparency should be only for those if they wish who have a direct connection with said donation, no others need or have a right to know
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Post by howitis on Jan 13, 2016 0:03:50 GMT -5
Interesting.......what I find interesting is that we are concerning ourselves with this at all!!!
Something tells me this has nothing at all to do with faith. Should a so called head worker, trustee or whatever use funds for that which is illegal and immoral, my belief is God will 'sort it'.....if we don't have the faith to believe that, what is it we can believe?
There is a reason there are verses in the Bible to do with examining ourselves and not being a stumbling block.....yes sure people aren't to be a stumbling block to us, neither should we be to others.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 0:51:39 GMT -5
transparency should be only for those if they wish who have a direct connection with said donation, no others need or have a right to know So if $1m is given by someone, placed in a trust fund and used by the Head Worker and Trustees for illegal and immoral purposes, no-one else in the church should know you say - only the giver? You're saying that other elders in the church, workers and general membership do not need to know and have no right to know that a large amount of money has been used illegal and immorally. Interesting .... you go and look at it from Christs point of view |
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 13, 2016 1:58:51 GMT -5
Interesting.......what I find interesting is that we are concerning ourselves with this at all!!! Something tells me this has nothing at all to do with faith. Should a so called head worker, trustee or whatever use funds for that which is illegal and immoral, my belief is God will 'sort it'.....if we don't have the faith to believe that, what is it we can believe? There is a reason there are verses in the Bible to do with examining ourselves and not being a stumbling block.....yes sure people aren't to be a stumbling block to us, neither should we be to others. How many times have we heard this in meetings and missions? Meanwhile children are being abused, money that has been given to the workers for "the gospel" is being used to protect workers who have abused children, but don't worry, don't concern yourself about it God will "sort it". At least some people who are still going to meetings are honest enough to admit there are problems that need solved, while others keep burying their heads in the sand ! |
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