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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 20:57:28 GMT -5
On another thread of mine entitled, "Quotations of 2x2 Workers," Joanna made an observation and comment that I felt deserved a new thread to address. It concerns contradictions found throughout the Bible. Her comment is found below along with my own response to her question. Perhaps there are other comments that TMB members would care to make regarding this fact? Please feel free to share your opinion with us in this new discussion topic. professing.proboards.com/thread/23656/quotations-2x2-workers-different-subjects?page=2 Quotation of 2x2 Workers on Different Subjects (Page 2)
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 21:16:34 GMT -5
Here's my response to her question, which I felt would be a good subject to explore further by creating this new thread.
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 21:25:06 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 21:40:26 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 21:44:38 GMT -5
Now here is a listing of all the contradictions that come up in discussion within Genesis through Deuteronomy. Please note that the creation account was the first one addressed from this list earlier.
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Post by rational on Dec 12, 2015 8:48:16 GMT -5
Here's my response to her question, which I felt would be a good subject to explore further by creating this new thread. You don't have to dig this deep. The 10 commandments were said to be written by god. And the first one was: “You shall have no other gods before Me." If there are no other gods why would god make this a commandment? God would have known if there were other gods. Or was that something god didn't know?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2015 13:46:32 GMT -5
Here's my response to her question, which I felt would be a good subject to explore further by creating this new thread. You don't have to dig this deep. The 10 commandments were said to be written by god. And the first one was: “You shall have no other gods before Me." If there are no other gods why would god make this a commandment? God would have known if there were other gods. Or was that something god didn't know? he was talking about the false gods surrounding the children of isreal...
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Post by rational on Dec 12, 2015 18:12:41 GMT -5
You don't have to dig this deep. The 10 commandments were said to be written by god. And the first one was: “You shall have no other gods before Me." If there are no other gods why would god make this a commandment? God would have known if there were other gods. Or was that something god didn't know? he was talking about the false gods surrounding the children of isreal... Would a god be jealous of false gods? Exactly where in the ten commandments does it mention not worshiping false gods? Where does it mention false gods? This is an example of adding to the bible to make it coincide with what you want it to say.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2015 19:44:12 GMT -5
he was talking about the false gods surrounding the children of isreal... Would a god be jealous of false gods? Exactly where in the ten commandments does it mention not worshiping false gods? Where does it mention false gods? This is an example of adding to the bible to make it coincide with what you want it to say. of course he would false gods take people away from him all the time its satans work. you gotta use a little thing called common sense to determine God was speaking of false gods...
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Post by joanna on Dec 12, 2015 19:51:56 GMT -5
Thank you faune for this thread. I only just noticed it after posting a comment on your other thread about how those who accept the bible's truth claims do so without applying the same harsh scrutiny they are subjecting one of the 1,000's of christian break-away groups to.
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Post by rational on Dec 13, 2015 0:11:19 GMT -5
Would a god be jealous of false gods? Exactly where in the ten commandments does it mention not worshiping false gods? Where does it mention false gods? This is an example of adding to the bible to make it coincide with what you want it to say. of course he would false gods take people away from him all the time its satans work. you gotta use a little thing called common sense to determine God was speaking of false gods... I wasn't asking you for what you believe but rather where in the 10 commandments it mentioned false gods. At the point of the 10 commandments there has been no mention of satan in the bible. It seems satan was a later invention. If the only car was a GodMobile there would be no point in telling people not to drive any other type of car.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 6:16:07 GMT -5
of course he would false gods take people away from him all the time its satans work. you gotta use a little thing called common sense to determine God was speaking of false gods... I wasn't asking you for what you believe but rather where in the 10 commandments it mentioned false gods. At the point of the 10 commandments there has been no mention of satan in the bible. It seems satan was a later invention. If the only car was a GodMobile there would be no point in telling people not to drive any other type of car. lame, apples and oranges....
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Post by harcal on Dec 13, 2015 14:11:06 GMT -5
Here's my response to her question, which I felt would be a good subject to explore further by creating this new thread. You don't have to dig this deep. The 10 commandments were said to be written by god. And the first one was: “You shall have no other gods before Me." If there are no other gods why would god make this a commandment? God would have known if there were other gods. Or was that something god didn't know? Jehovah doesn't claim there are no other gods. He says "Have no other gods BEFORE Me." In other words, He needs to be honored before/above other gods. The bible never says there are no other gods. In fact, it says there are other gods.
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Post by rational on Dec 14, 2015 12:52:03 GMT -5
You don't have to dig this deep. The 10 commandments were said to be written by god. And the first one was: “You shall have no other gods before Me." If there are no other gods why would god make this a commandment? God would have known if there were other gods. Or was that something god didn't know? Jehovah doesn't claim there are no other gods. He says "Have no other gods BEFORE Me." In other words, He needs to be honored before/above other gods. The bible never says there are no other gods. In fact, it says there are other gods. Exactly. And the contradiction is that in other places the bible does claim there is only one god.
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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2015 13:28:24 GMT -5
Jehovah doesn't claim there are no other gods. He says "Have no other gods BEFORE Me." In other words, He needs to be honored before/above other gods. The bible never says there are no other gods. In fact, it says there are other gods. Exactly. And the contradiction is that in other places the bible does claim there is only one god. Rational ~ I'm sorry I didn't answer this question of yours sooner. I just noticed it today. I feel this article below clarifies this concern of yours more clearly where the same question was asked. Personally, I feel God was speaking of man-made gods of our own making or creation. They may be pride, materialism, accomplishments, wealth, entertainment, false beliefs, etc., that would take up first place in our lives. I believe Paul referenced this in 1 Corinthians 3:11 when he spoke about the foundation we are building upon when he spoke of the different elements we use in its construction. At the end of this life, many of us believe that we will be weighed in the balances by a divine presence or Creator for how we invested our lives in our lifetime. However, it is the Christian hope that we will be viewed through the blood of Jesus and His imputed righteousness to our account as a result of belief in Jesus' saving grace. biblehub.com/1_corinthians/3-11.htm 1 Corinthians 3:11 www.gotquestions.org/no-other-gods.html "Why is 'You shall have no other gods before me' in the Ten Commandments?"
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Post by harcal on Dec 15, 2015 12:40:45 GMT -5
Jehovah doesn't claim there are no other gods. He says "Have no other gods BEFORE Me." In other words, He needs to be honored before/above other gods. The bible never says there are no other gods. In fact, it says there are other gods. Exactly. And the contradiction is that in other places the bible does claim there is only one god. I disagree that this is a contradiction. The bible allows for one Supreme God and numerous 'gods.' There is one Supreme God (only one) but there are numerous 'gods.' Bible students understand this, and aren't bothered by these contradictions, such as Isaiah 44:6 "There is no other God besides me" and Psalm 82:6 "You are gods, you are sons of the Most High." Common sense tells students of the bible that these are not contradictions.
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Post by rational on Dec 15, 2015 13:09:13 GMT -5
Exactly. And the contradiction is that in other places the bible does claim there is only one god. I disagree that this is a contradiction. The bible allows for one Supreme God and numerous 'gods.' There is one Supreme God (only one) but there are numerous 'gods.' Bible students understand this, and aren't bothered by these contradictions, such as Isaiah 44:6 "There is no other God besides me" and Psalm 82:6 "You are gods, you are sons of the Most High." Common sense tells students of the bible that these are not contradictions. Can you give a definition of 'god' that makes your claim of commonsense work? It seems that your common sense approach is to use a single word with multiple definitions.
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Post by harcal on Dec 17, 2015 15:03:10 GMT -5
I disagree that this is a contradiction. The bible allows for one Supreme God and numerous 'gods.' There is one Supreme God (only one) but there are numerous 'gods.' Bible students understand this, and aren't bothered by these contradictions, such as Isaiah 44:6 "There is no other God besides me" and Psalm 82:6 "You are gods, you are sons of the Most High." Common sense tells students of the bible that these are not contradictions. Can you give a definition of 'god' that makes your claim of commonsense work? It seems that your common sense approach is to use a single word with multiple definitions. I'm not attempting to prove the existence of God or gods. I'm simply pointing out how the term God (El) and gods (Elohim) are used in the bible. Like I said, the Hebrews were to acknowledge and worship one Suoreme Gid. That didn't eliminate the existence ig gods.
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Post by harcal on Dec 17, 2015 15:03:37 GMT -5
I disagree that this is a contradiction. The bible allows for one Supreme God and numerous 'gods.' There is one Supreme God (only one) but there are numerous 'gods.' Bible students understand this, and aren't bothered by these contradictions, such as Isaiah 44:6 "There is no other God besides me" and Psalm 82:6 "You are gods, you are sons of the Most High." Common sense tells students of the bible that these are not contradictions. Can you give a definition of 'god' that makes your claim of commonsense work? It seems that your common sense approach is to use a single word with multiple definitions. I'm not attempting to prove the existence of God or gods. I'm simply pointing out how the term God (El) and gods (Elohim) are used in the bible. Like I said, the Hebrews were to acknowledge and worship one Supreme God. That didn't eliminate the existence ig gods.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 17, 2015 16:37:14 GMT -5
Exactly. And the contradiction is that in other places the bible does claim there is only one god. I disagree that this is a contradiction. The bible allows for one Supreme God and numerous 'gods.' There is one Supreme God (only one) but there are numerous 'gods.' Bible students understand this, and aren't bothered by these contradictions, such as Isaiah 44:6 "There is no other God besides me" and Psalm 82:6 "You are gods, you are sons of the Most High." Common sense tells students of the bible that these are not contradictions. Actually, it is a contradiction -- but not for the reason you propose. There was no understanding by ancient Jews that there was a supreme god and then others. Their "chosen" god was the one Abraham chose out of all the other available gods to make his contract with. It was in much later times that they believed there was only one god, and NO others. The concept of a supreme god and "others" is much more in line with early Gnostic Christianity, more common among Greeks than Hebrews. A popular belief among them was that the earth was not created by the supreme god, but by one of the others, and Jesus' role was to help humans (who could) become aware of their communion with the supreme god. Roughly explained, because there were a great variety of gnostic concepts. Common sense, remember, is just that -- what some non-expert expects something means to him. (With all due respect)
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 17, 2015 16:45:41 GMT -5
Would a god be jealous of false gods? Exactly where in the ten commandments does it mention not worshiping false gods? Where does it mention false gods? This is an example of adding to the bible to make it coincide with what you want it to say. of course he would false gods take people away from him all the time its satans work. you gotta use a little thing called common sense to determine God was speaking of false gods... The false gods mentioned in the Bible doesn't refer to the other "real" gods that the Hebrews believed existed. The god of the Hebrews, in one place, is said to associate with the other gods. The false gods are the ones that men just made up themselves -- the interpretation is: None of the gods they believed existed fit their own liking, so they made up some new ones. (Like it never happened all the time.) They, when you confront them in the Bible, were just powerless and could be ignored. What could not be ignored were the supposed "real" gods who were in competition with the god of Abraham, to whom the Hebrews continuously turned for the obvious reason that they believed they received something from them. Particularly for crop fertility. That, in a Christian sense, could be referred to as the work of Satan.
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Post by harcal on Dec 17, 2015 16:54:07 GMT -5
I disagree that this is a contradiction. The bible allows for one Supreme God and numerous 'gods.' There is one Supreme God (only one) but there are numerous 'gods.' Bible students understand this, and aren't bothered by these contradictions, such as Isaiah 44:6 "There is no other God besides me" and Psalm 82:6 "You are gods, you are sons of the Most High." Common sense tells students of the bible that these are not contradictions. Actually, it is a contradiction -- but not for the reason you propose. There was no understanding by ancient Jews that there was a supreme god and then others. Their "chosen" god was the one Abraham chose out of all the other available gods to make his contract with. It was in much later times that they believed there was only one god, and NO others. The concept of a supreme god and "others" is much more in line with early Gnostic Christianity, more common among Greeks than Hebrews. A popular belief among them was that the earth was not created by the supreme god, but by one of the others, and Jesus' role was to help humans (who could) become aware of their communion with the supreme god. Roughly explained, because there were a great variety of gnostic concepts. Common sense, remember, is just that -- what some non-expert expects something means to him. (With all due respect) I don't know whether what you're saying is true or not. Never heard such a thing before. Where could one read about this at?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 17, 2015 17:06:04 GMT -5
Actually, it is a contradiction -- but not for the reason you propose. There was no understanding by ancient Jews that there was a supreme god and then others. Their "chosen" god was the one Abraham chose out of all the other available gods to make his contract with. It was in much later times that they believed there was only one god, and NO others. The concept of a supreme god and "others" is much more in line with early Gnostic Christianity, more common among Greeks than Hebrews. A popular belief among them was that the earth was not created by the supreme god, but by one of the others, and Jesus' role was to help humans (who could) become aware of their communion with the supreme god. Roughly explained, because there were a great variety of gnostic concepts. Common sense, remember, is just that -- what some non-expert expects something means to him. (With all due respect) I don't know whether what you're saying is true or not. Never heard such a thing before. Where could one read about this at?
Pregeant, Russell Engaging the New Testament Fortress Press, Minneapolis, 1995 Chapter 2, Christian Beginnings in Context, pp.91-93 It's a college textbook
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Post by harcal on Dec 17, 2015 21:38:11 GMT -5
I don't know whether what you're saying is true or not. Never heard such a thing before. Where could one read about this at?
Pregeant, Russell Engaging the New Testament Fortress Press, Minneapolis, 1995 Chapter 2, Christian Beginnings in Context, pp.91-93 It's a college textbook I'm personally growing weary of doctrine and debate. It seems that no one agrees on anything anymore. There's always proof against this and that. I give up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 21:50:55 GMT -5
Pregeant, Russell Engaging the New Testament Fortress Press, Minneapolis, 1995 Chapter 2, Christian Beginnings in Context, pp.91-93 It's a college textbook I'm personally growing weary of doctrine and debate. It seems that no one agrees on anything anymore. There's always proof against this and that. I give up. stay the course...
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Post by faune on Dec 17, 2015 22:13:59 GMT -5
You don't have to dig this deep. The 10 commandments were said to be written by god. And the first one was: “You shall have no other gods before Me." If there are no other gods why would god make this a commandment? God would have known if there were other gods. Or was that something god didn't know? Jehovah doesn't claim there are no other gods. He says "Have no other gods BEFORE Me." In other words, He needs to be honored before/above other gods. The bible never says there are no other gods. In fact, it says there are other gods. Harcal ~ Well, here is a verse that supports your view above. biblehub.com/exodus/15-11.htm Exodus 15:11 along with cross references.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2015 23:02:36 GMT -5
Pregeant, Russell Engaging the New Testament Fortress Press, Minneapolis, 1995 Chapter 2, Christian Beginnings in Context, pp.91-93 It's a college textbook I'm personally growing weary of doctrine and debate. It seems that no one agrees on anything anymore. There's always proof against this and that. I give up. Isn't the fact that 'no one agrees on anything' exactly WHY there are & have been so many religions and denominations throughout the history of humankind?
What does this tell you? What better case can be made for the fact that it is humankind that has "created" gods in their own image and not the other way round, -that "god" created man in HIS image?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2015 0:03:47 GMT -5
Pregeant, Russell Engaging the New Testament Fortress Press, Minneapolis, 1995 Chapter 2, Christian Beginnings in Context, pp.91-93 It's a college textbook I'm personally growing weary of doctrine and debate. It seems that no one agrees on anything anymore. There's always proof against this and that. I give up. Well, that's basically what religion and politics are all about -- doctrine/policy and debate. For me it never became all that interesting until I figured out it had nothing to do with eternal salvation, and now I've got enough credits for a major in religious studies.
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