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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 10, 2015 19:02:25 GMT -5
Are we even close to taking a stab a this yet? The natives (or at least yknot) are getting restless. I personally feel the most useful definition somehow encompasses the feelings we share in our God-experiences. In other words, defining God without using the words awe, love, feeling, and smile, is pointless and purely academic. But maybe we aren't all comfortable with our feelings. Should God be defined somehow as consciousness? As transcendence? As creator? In other words, what really MATTERS? Do we dare let our God-experiences define what we mean by God? (I expect to be derailed by the refrain, "nothing matters but salvation..." )
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 19:05:12 GMT -5
simply creator will do...
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 10, 2015 19:07:36 GMT -5
That just seems backwards to me, wally. After we uncover the God we experience, THEN we ask "did this God create us or did we create him?" (or did we discover each other) ...for those who are still curious about our origins.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 10, 2015 19:18:09 GMT -5
All right, let me kick-start this. The goal is to agree on attributes of God. I'll give my pre-discussion votes and hope you can change my mind on a few attributes. God...
1. is experienced by members of various religions (obviously, unless there are many gods) 2. is therefore unselective regarding what we believe (apparently) 3. is our creator (perhaps, or was created by our creator) 4. is a conscious being or beings (I have a hard time with this one, at least the way we experience conciousness) 5. brings feelings of awe, joy, love, peace (yes) 6. makes us feel universally connected (yes) 7. lives in the sky (no)
This is just a start
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 20:06:29 GMT -5
simply creator will do... I'd happily settle for creator. I'd equally settle for grower of grass or sender of rain. Or giver of life or wonder of nature. What is equally important is to define what God isn't. For example, God isn't the Christian God. I invited believers to make the link between the creator and the God of the bible and they completely failed to do so. I think this failure indicates that there is no basis whatsoever for claiming that the creator is, or has any link to, what we understand to be the Christian God. I think it is safe to say therefore that the creator and the God of the bible are two entirely separate entities, irrespective of what believers might believe. God the creator will not save your soul nor will he send his son to earth nor does he have the power to restore your legs should you be unfortunate enough to lose them in an automobile accident. God the creator may create rainbows in the sky and make the flowers grow but that does not mean he loves you or cares for you or will lift as much as a finger to help you in your hour of despair. God the creator really doesn't give a hoot about you. Unlike the Christian God who apparently does. Most of the confusion around God appears to be due to the fact that those who believe in the Christian God insist on attributing the attributes of the Christian God to the creator, and attributing responsibility for the creation to the Christian God. This is merely an attempt by those who believe to present some hard evidence to support the existence of the Christian God. This is, alas, deeply flawed. There is no hard evidence to support the existence of the Christian God. I think it may be helpful therefore (at least for the purposes of this search) if we start to treat God the creator and the God of the bible as two entirely separate gods. The God of the bible may love us and care for us and may frown upon us having a television in the same way that the God of Islam may demand that we pray fives times a day facing Mecca. But neither Allah nor the Christian God are the creator God. Allah and the Christian God are merely characters in books and while they may seem great and powerful gods in theory, in reality they are nothing of the sort. Try praying to the God of the bible to heal you when you've just had your arm chopped off by a machete, or try praying to Allah to bring your dog back to life when it's just been run over by a steam roller, and you'll soon realise how powerless (and hopeless) these gods really are. You might as well pray to Jupiter or Mars. In seeking to define God we should keep in mind that the power of the Christian God exists only in the mind of the believer, while the power of God the creator is a real and demonstrable power. Matt10
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 10, 2015 21:39:34 GMT -5
Matt, here is your God-experience (quoting from your post): "Have I experience God? Most definitely. How have I experienced God? God spoke to me regularly when I was young to the point where I had no doubts as to his existence. God was a constant presence in my life, for better or for worse (usually for worse), a still small voice inside my head..."
This is the God you are describing when you say "I'd happily settle for creator?"
If not, do you have any attributes of God to put on the table other than someone who talks to you inside your head and becomes a constant presence in your life?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 1:07:38 GMT -5
Matt, here is your God-experience (quoting from your post): "Have I experience God? Most definitely. How have I experienced God? God spoke to me regularly when I was young to the point where I had no doubts as to his existence. God was a constant presence in my life, for better or for worse (usually for worse), a still small voice inside my head..." This is the God you are describing when you say "I'd happily settle for creator?" If not, do you have any attributes of God to put on the table other than someone who talks to you inside your head and becomes a constant presence in your life? I think I set out some of the attributes of God in the first paragraph of my previous post. Here they are again. 1. Creator. 2. Rain sender. 3. Grass grower. 4. Life giver. 5. Wonder of nature. This is, of course, not the God I am describing in your quotation. The God I am describing in your quotation is the Christian God. As I (hoped I had) pointed out in my previous post, the Christian God and God the creator are two entirely different entities (although people often mix them up). I hope this helps clear up any confusion. Matt10
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Post by Gene on Dec 11, 2015 8:46:04 GMT -5
A dozen potential attributes of god, and my vote on each attribute (some are repeats of what others have posited)
1. Personal (no) 2. Anthropomorphic (no) 3. Conscious (no) 4. Influential (yes) 5. Influencable (yes) 6. Causer (yes) 7. Knowable (yes) 8. Fully known (no) 9. Benevolent (no) 10. Omniscient (no) 11. Omnipotent (no) 12. Omnipresent (yes)
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Post by rational on Dec 11, 2015 9:07:31 GMT -5
Perhaps selecting from a list of attributes generally attributed to paranormal beings would help with objective terms.
Here is a starting list:
Eternal Holy Unchanging/Immutable Impassable Infinite Omnipotent Omnipresence/Immanence Omnisapience Omniscience Simple Self-existent Self-sufficient Immaterial Good Love Gracious Merciful Just Sovereign Freedom Jealous Transcendent Creator Personal Incomprehensible Morally perfect
Make your selections and "build a god".
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Post by xna on Dec 11, 2015 10:14:31 GMT -5
God is a human imagination, which comforts our fears, and makes right all that we see as wrong. Some say heavenly father, others sky daddy - same idea.
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Post by bubbles on Dec 11, 2015 12:59:10 GMT -5
Are we even close to taking a stab a this yet? The natives (or at least yknot) are getting restless. I personally feel the most useful definition somehow encompasses the feelings we share in our God-experiences. In other words, defining God without using the words awe, love, feeling, and smile, is pointless and purely academic. But maybe we aren't all comfortable with our feelings. Should God be defined somehow as consciousness? As transcendence? As creator? In other words, what really MATTERS? Do we dare let our God-experiences define what we mean by God? (I expect to be derailed by the refrain, "nothing matters but salvation..." ) Diet Defining god? Divine majestic power. To take 'god 'out of the way. Force/intelligence. God experiences can define a persons concept of god. If there is none then there is no definition. Usually the question would not be answered by the people I know that no thing about the bible. They understand the word spiritual somewhat. The thing that matters for me is that when I feel I know the truth i am usually lead off in another direction of learning more. Truth can not be contained. The all encompassing power of the universe cannot be understood in a day nor in a lifetime.
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Post by placid-void on Dec 11, 2015 17:08:44 GMT -5
As I read through this thread, I am struck by how many responses seem to be based on the premise that “God” is an entity “out-there”. Many of the responses seem to be based on the assumption (belief) that “God” is external/separate from self. I would be interested in learning more about the assumption that “God” is separate from self.
Some of my thinking has been influenced by my training in the sciences and by some by the Eastern philosophies (e.g. Tau Te Ching). I try, when possible, to use Occam’s Razor and keep things as simple as possible. I also like to start my searches as close to home as possible.
Finally, I have enjoyed studying the various lists proposed for characterizing “God”. The problem I have, however, is that each list is based on the assumption that the numinous can be described using impermanent secular categories. This assumption is far from justified in my mind, but in the absence of a suitable vocabulary, it may be the best we can do.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Dec 11, 2015 17:36:13 GMT -5
As I read through this thread, I am struck by how many responses seem to be based on the premise that “God” is an entity “out-there”. Many of the responses seem to be based on the assumption (belief) that “God” is external/separate from self. I would be interested in learning more about the assumption that “God” is separate from self. Some of my thinking has been influenced by my training in the sciences and by some by the Eastern philosophies (e.g. Tau Te Ching). I try, when possible, to use Occam’s Razor and keep things as simple as possible. I also like to start my searches as close to home as possible. Finally, I have enjoyed studying the various lists proposed for characterizing “God”. The problem I have, however, is that each list is based on the assumption that the numinous can be described using impermanent secular categories. This assumption is far from justified in my mind, but in the absence of a suitable vocabulary, it may be the best we can do. I think of God as the ground of our very being, while also being the absolute "other," able to confront me and to enter into relationship. Even the spatial terms we use are of course anthropomorphic, as well as the myriad metaphors used in describing God, but, as you say, "it may be the best we can do." How else can we speak of something incomprehensibly greater than any individual or the whole sum of humanity, without using symbolic, metaphoric, and even mythological language? But of course, the "temptation" to form another image - an idol - of these metaphors is ever-present, and it occurs far more often than actually piercing through the symbolic language to the reality to which it points.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 11, 2015 18:15:00 GMT -5
We seem to be going in two different directions in describing God: 1. What we hope to find (or hope to hell we don't find) 2. What we have experienced
It's my fault. I'm scaling back my list. The God I experience: 1. Brings feelings of awe, love, joy, peace 2. Makes me feel universally connected to all life 3. Is NOT omnipresent, or at least washes over me in waves rather than a constant companionship. he pretty much leaves me alone when I'm busy. 4. Can best be found in prayer or outdoor meditation or in contemplation of nature when I am able to calm my mind 5. Disappears rapidly as soon as somebody begins to talk
I think the "higher power" of A.A. is an important part of the search. When someone turns themselves over to this higher power for guidance, they find the strength to conquer that which they are not otherwise able. Addiction, in other words. There is a whole lot more that can be said here, but for now: 6. God's power comes from belief in him and reliance upon him, though in A.A.'s experience it make no difference how we imagine him so long as he is stronger than us. He must be a "higher power".
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 11, 2015 19:26:54 GMT -5
Quote: I think the "higher power" of A.A. is an important part of the search. When someone turns themselves over to this higher power for guidance, they find the strength to conquer that which they are not otherwise able. Addiction, in other words. There is a whole lot more that can be said here, but for now: 6. God's power comes from belief in him and reliance upon him, though in A.A.'s experience it make no difference how we imagine him so long as he is stronger than us. He must be a "higher power". AA. -Alcoholics Anonymous -has no better statistics in helping alcoholics to stop drinking than other treatment methods.
That is because alcoholism, as well as other types of additions, are NOT moral problems as has been portrayed in the past. Addictions are caused by a physical problem.
Claiming that they are caused by moral weaknesses is an injustice to the person suffering from the addiction.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 11, 2015 20:39:38 GMT -5
Quote: I think the "higher power" of A.A. is an important part of the search. When someone turns themselves over to this higher power for guidance, they find the strength to conquer that which they are not otherwise able. Addiction, in other words. There is a whole lot more that can be said here, but for now: 6. God's power comes from belief in him and reliance upon him, though in A.A.'s experience it make no difference how we imagine him so long as he is stronger than us. He must be a "higher power". AA. -Alcoholics Anonymous -has no better statistics in helping alcoholics to stop drinking than other treatment methods.
That is because alcoholism, as well as other types of additions, are NOT moral problems as has been portrayed in the past. Addictions are caused by a physical problem.
Claiming that they are caused by moral weaknesses is an injustice to the person suffering from the addiction. I think you have no idea how A.A. works, DM. NOBODY at A.A. would claim addiction is a moral weakness. And unless you are a recovering alcoholic who has spent many years in A.A., I don't find your contribution or opinion on the matter particularly helpful.
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Post by Gene on Dec 11, 2015 20:59:39 GMT -5
We seem to be going in two different directions in describing God: 1. What we hope to find (or hope to hell we don't find) 2. What we have experienced It's my fault. I'm scaling back my list. The God I experience: 1. Brings feelings of awe, love, joy, peace 2. Makes me feel universally connected to all life 3. Is NOT omnipresent, or at least washes over me in waves rather than a constant companionship. he pretty much leaves me alone when I'm busy. 4. Can best be found in prayer or outdoor meditation or in contemplation of nature when I am able to calm my mind 5. Disappears rapidly as soon as somebody begins to talk I think the "higher power" of A.A. is an important part of the search. When someone turns themselves over to this higher power for guidance, they find the strength to conquer that which they are not otherwise able. Addiction, in other words. There is a whole lot more that can be said here, but for now: 6. God's power comes from belief in him and reliance upon him, though in A.A.'s experience it make no difference how we imagine him so long as he is stronger than us. He must be a "higher power". So, in response, but not with any certainty that this clarifies my POV: In my experience of god, I have found that god: 1. Has no personal interest in me 2. Is not "man-like" in personality, emotion, motivation, form or sense 3. Has no consciousness in the way we consider ourselves to be conscious 4. Has influence on our lives, our being, our environment, our relationships, our interactions, but in varying degrees at any moment and in any circumstance 5. Is influenced by our actions; again, in varying degrees usw. 6. Is a cause of some thing(s) but not everything 7. Is knowable 8. Is not fully known, yet, but may be, one day 9. Cares not for our welfare 10. Is not aware of all 11. Does not possess ultimate power to cause 12. Is present in all things, always, but presence does not equate to influence
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Post by SharonArnold on Dec 13, 2015 14:39:43 GMT -5
I've always liked the Robert Fulghum quote:
“In my experience, any concept one may have of God will be a block to establishing the relationship so devoutly sought. The way to avoid such blocking is to have intention without expectation, and trust without belief.”
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Post by placid-void on Dec 13, 2015 16:56:53 GMT -5
I've always liked the Robert Fulghum quote: “In my experience, any concept one may have of God will be a block to establishing the relationship so devoutly sought. The way to avoid such blocking is to have intention without expectation, and trust without belief.” Fascinating quote worthy of much reflection. Thanks SharonArnold.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2015 18:12:54 GMT -5
AA. -Alcoholics Anonymous -has no better statistics in helping alcoholics to stop drinking than other treatment methods.
That is because alcoholism, as well as other types of additions, are NOT moral problems as has been portrayed in the past. Addictions are caused by a physical problem.
Claiming that they are caused by moral weaknesses is an injustice to the person suffering from the addiction. I think you have no idea how A.A. works, DM. NOBODY at A.A. would claim addiction is a moral weakness. And unless you are a recovering alcoholic who has spent many years in A.A., I don't find your contribution or opinion on the matter particularly helpful. Sorry, Dubious Disciple, -but I think you have no idea of what I know.
I am an RN (Registered Nurse.)
I am familiar with causes of addictions and organizations other than A.A. that assist people with addictions. So I do think that despite what you might believe that I might have a contribution on the matter which could be helpful. A.A. actually does refer to the causes of addiction to alcohol as a "moral" problem.' The AA Twelve Steps The 12 steps of AA are as follows: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 1 1. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Step 10 requires you to commit to some kind of spiritual practice. That practice could be anything from prayer, to meditation, to reading scripture. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 14, 2015 19:29:48 GMT -5
I think you have no idea how A.A. works, DM. NOBODY at A.A. would claim addiction is a moral weakness. And unless you are a recovering alcoholic who has spent many years in A.A., I don't find your contribution or opinion on the matter particularly helpful. Sorry, Dubious Disciple, -but I think you have no idea of what I know.
I am an RN (Registered Nurse.)
I am familiar with causes of addictions and organizations other than A.A. that assist people with addictions. So I do think that despite what you might believe that I might have a contribution on the matter which could be helpful. A.A. actually does refer to the causes of addiction to alcohol as a "moral" problem.' The AA Twelve Steps The 12 steps of AA are as follows: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 1 1. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Step 10 requires you to commit to some kind of spiritual practice. That practice could be anything from prayer, to meditation, to reading scripture. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. The moral inventory isn't about the drinking, it is about what drinking has caused in the lives of alcoholics. It is to list all those things which an individual has done through their actions, not an inventory on their drinking. Have you ever attended any AA meetings?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 14, 2015 19:51:01 GMT -5
That is correct, Scott. The moral inventory of this step is to help repair the relationships destroyed in your life (see step 5).
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2015 20:36:47 GMT -5
Sorry, Dubious Disciple, -but I think you have no idea of what I know.
I am an RN (Registered Nurse.)
I am familiar with causes of addictions and organizations other than A.A. that assist people with addictions. So I do think that despite what you might believe that I might have a contribution on the matter which could be helpful. A.A. actually does refer to the causes of addiction to alcohol as a "moral" problem.' The AA Twelve Steps The 12 steps of AA are as follows: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 1 1. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Step 10 requires you to commit to some kind of spiritual practice. That practice could be anything from prayer, to meditation, to reading scripture. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. The moral inventory isn't about the drinking, it is about what drinking has caused in the lives of alcoholics. It is to list all those things which an individual has done through their actions, not an inventory on their drinking. Have you ever attended any AA meetings? Perhaps the moral inventory isn't about the drinking per se, -never-the-less it certainly has been viewed in the past as a character defect and everything about help from A.A. involves making "a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God ," as stated in it's own 12 steps .
I was answering Dubious Disciple's post where he stated :
"When someone turns themselves over to this higher power for guidance, they find the strength to conquer that which they are not otherwise able. Addiction, in other words."
My comment was to his post was:
"AA. -Alcoholics Anonymous -has no better statistics in helping alcoholics to stop drinking than other treatment methods.
That is because alcoholism, as well as other types of additions, are NOT moral problems as has been portrayed in the past. Addictions are caused by a physical problem. Claiming that they are caused by moral weaknesses is an injustice to the person suffering from the addiction."
Ross, I stick to my original post. Addictions are "physical " conditions, -just as any other physical condition and it is NOT a "moral" problem and it is an injustice to the person suffering from the addiction to treat it as some kind of "moral" problem that needs a higher power and a need to ask "God remove all these defects of character."
A.A. has always portrayed Alcoholism as some kind of character defect that needs a god (higher power) in order to overcome that defect.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 14, 2015 21:40:03 GMT -5
100% true
100% true
100% false
DM, you are the one trying to say that God's job is to fix character defects. It's not, okay? Millions of A.A. members are trying to explain that by learning to trust a Higher Power, they are able to conquer what they have tried multiple times and failed via other methods. Perhaps you've seen other ways work as well, but their solution...and it works by the millions, after finding failure in anything else they tried...is a Higher Power. Are you calling these millions of people liars?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2015 22:57:17 GMT -5
100% true 100% true 100% false DM, you are the one trying to say that God's job is to fix character defects.
It's not, okay? Millions of A.A. members are trying to explain that by learning to trust a Higher Power, they are able to conquer what they have tried multiple times and failed via other methods. Perhaps you've seen other ways work as well, but their solution...and it works by the millions, after finding failure in anything else they tried...is a Higher Power. Are you calling these millions of people liars? No, -I am NOT the one trying to say that God's job is to fix character defects!
If it is, as you say, "Millions of A.A. members are trying to explain that by learning to trust a Higher Power they are able to conquer what they have tried multiple times and failed via other methods" -how can you say that it is ME that is the one trying to say that God's job is to fix character defects?
AND NO! NEITHER AM I "calling these millions of people liars!"
WHY ARE YOU PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH THAT I DIDN'T SAY?
Would you please just go back to my original post on the subject.
I said , "AA. -Alcoholics Anonymous -has no better statistics in helping alcoholics to stop drinking than other treatment methods."
I DID NOT say that Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't help people, -I DID NOT say those people claiming it did help them were "LIARS"!
I said Alcoholics Anonymous has no better statistics in helping alcoholics to stop drinking than other treatment methods.
All you have to do is compare A.A. programs with other non-religious programs and those other programs have about the same rate of helping people to overcome addition as A.A.
I wonder why you keep trying to deny that A.A. is based on religious tenets? I listed the whole 12 step program and it is full of religious phrases .
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 14, 2015 23:34:21 GMT -5
Jeepers, DM, you are impossible to talk with. I think you mean "spiritual tenets" rather than "religious tenets," btw.
I'm simply trying to tell you that A.A. doesn't expect anyone's Higher Power to solve character defects. The "Big Book" is very, very clear that addiction is not a character defect.
Look at it this way: Religious football players expect God to help them win ball games. Does that mean losing ball games is a character defect?
C'mon, DM. You really need to learn more about A.A. before dissing it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2015 23:55:54 GMT -5
Jeepers, DM, you are impossible to talk with. I think you mean "spiritual tenets" rather than "religious tenets," btw. I'm simply trying to tell you that A.A. doesn't expect anyone's Higher Power to solve character defects. The "Big Book" is very, very clear that alcoholism is not a character defect. Look at it this way: Religious football players expect God to help them win ball games. Does that mean losing ball games is a character defect? C'mon, DM. You really need to learn more about A.A. before dissing it. C'mon, -YOU, Dubious Disciple, - really need to listen to what I'm saying instead of accusing me of things I DIDN'T say before you keep on dissing me for your lack of understanding plain English.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 15, 2015 1:27:59 GMT -5
Jeepers, DM, you are impossible to talk with . I think you mean "spiritual tenets" rather than "religious tenets," btw. I'm simply trying to tell you that A.A. doesn't expect anyone's Higher Power to solve character defects. The "Big Book" is very, very clear that addiction is not a character defect. Look at it this way: Religious football players expect God to help them win ball games. Does that mean losing ball games is a character defect? C'mon, DM. You really need to learn more about A.A. before dissing it. Oh, sure! And these phrases in the Alcoholics Anonymous 12 Step program aren't "religious tenets?"
"a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity."
"turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."
"Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." "Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs." " Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character."
"Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings."
"Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out." "requires you to commit to some kind of spiritual practice. That practice could be anything from prayer, to meditation, to reading scripture."
"a spiritual awakening "
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