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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 4, 2015 22:52:12 GMT -5
make-be·lieve ˈ The action of pretending or imagining “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” ~ Albert Einstein Yes, -'imagination' is great when it is realized that sometimes what we 'imagine' is attainable, -sometimes it is not.
When it is attainable, -we can only do it with our feet firmly on the ground of reality.
It is wonderful to 'imagine' a 'world without war,' however, it won't ever happen if we don't ground that hope in reality & personally work to make it happen.
We can imagine a world without 'illness' but it isn't going to happen if we continue to have our heads in the clouds instead of someone, somewhere working to find the cause of the 'illness' and a remedy.
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Post by SharonArnold on Oct 6, 2015 15:55:15 GMT -5
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” ~ Albert Einstein Yes, -'imagination' is great when it is realized that sometimes what we 'imagine' is attainable, -sometimes it is not.
When it is attainable, -we can only do it with our feet firmly on the ground of reality.
It is wonderful to 'imagine' a 'world without war,' however, it won't ever happen if we don't ground that hope in reality & personally work to make it happen.
We can imagine a world without 'illness' but it isn't going to happen if we continue to have our heads in the clouds instead of someone, somewhere working to find the cause of the 'illness' and a remedy. "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." ~ Isaac Newton I think this is what xna is referring to in his post. <<If mankind continues to progress, in a thousand years much of what we say we are sure of today will probably seem foolish then. That has always been the case, as there seems to be no escaping the pattern of human advancement comes by, standing on the shoulders of the past great ones.>> I can remember when I first came across this quote. It was one of those moments in my life, when the clock stopped ticking, and when it resumed, my world was never quite the same again. I now understand it was derived from: “Bernard of Chartres used to say that we [the Moderns] are like dwarves perched on the shoulders of giants [the Ancients], and thus we are able to see more and farther than the latter. And this is not at all because of the acuteness of our sight or the stature of our body, but because we are carried aloft and elevated by the magnitude of the giants.” (John of Salisbury) There are innumerable “reaching for the stars” quotes that (IMO) have merit. In the end, I would probably take issue with the “feet planted firmly on the ground of reality” assertion. I think we can look back through history and find a lot of examples of people who had ideas that were far too big for their time. Some of these individuals paid for this dearly, even their lives – but at a later point, other individuals picked up the idea and were able to bring it fruition and, eventually, broad acceptance. So, should they have not had the idea/dreamed the dream because the price was too high? Because it was not grounded in the general "reality" of that time? A number of years ago, I saw an IMAX movie on Africa, and it, in part, featured the herds of wildebeest (I think -though it could have been another type of hoofed mammal) as they migrated across the continent. The take-home lesson for me was that the survival of the individual in the herd was not important, but the survival of the herd was all-important. I will refrain from conclusions that could be reached from this, but suffice it to say, it posed a lot of questions that have become treasured travel companions for me. I have Rumi’s quote “When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy” as a tagline. It is because I truly believe it, and think that a life lived reaching for this/living this, is a life well spent. Whether it is “grounded in reality” doesn’t seem all that important to me. I have a group of friends who tend to hold similar world views to mine. In talking to them, I don’t have to be all that careful in how I express myself, because they mostly understand what I mean. That is not the case with The TMB. But, sometimes, when I listen really hard, I can hear other people expressing (frequently using different terminology) the same kinds of things I understand. To frame this kind of thing in a 2X2 context, I would think of the “ Throw thy soul into the conflict” hymn and the Ecclesiastes Bible verse of “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”
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Post by magpie on Oct 7, 2015 17:07:55 GMT -5
Redback-----I tried hard to get your song on here Redback----,sung by Slim Dusty. Didnt work.Still in the kero/parafin lamp era sometimes. Still owe you lunch though. Like the opening poem. Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 2:34:25 GMT -5
We are both in that kero era Magpie. I think I have mastered something one day, only to find out next day I have forgotten how. Have to get help from Grandchildren if I can find one willing to help.
Thanks for trying, very much appreciated.
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Post by fixit on Oct 10, 2015 3:10:57 GMT -5
It is wonderful to 'imagine' a 'world without war,' however, it won't ever happen if we don't ground that hope in reality & personally work to make it happen. It's a wonderful idea. A world with no armed forces, no police forces, no border controls, no tax inspectors. The only way you'll make it happen is if you can convince everyone on the planet to live the Sermon on the Mount. Until that happens, peace can only be maintained by force.
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Post by fixit on Oct 10, 2015 3:19:40 GMT -5
Redback-----I tried hard to get your song on here Redback----,sung by Slim Dusty. Didnt work.Still in the kero/parafin lamp era sometimes. Still owe you lunch though. Like the opening poem. Thanks I couldn't find Slim Dusty, but here's Boy Zone..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 3:56:46 GMT -5
Thanks fixit, you have made an old man very happy. Great version, I just love it.
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Post by magpie on Oct 12, 2015 16:30:21 GMT -5
No matter what, now I liked Slim Dusty,BUT,"No Matter WhaT" by the Boy Zone -Fantastic.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2015 16:58:47 GMT -5
Often wonder why people "do drugs." You read the lyrics to this song with its anti-society and anti- authority message, and wonder what impact this mentality has on such people.
When motorcycle gangs got all the bad publicity about 5 years ago their membership shot up overnight. And the Syrian/Iraq ISIS group can show their absolute worse, and thousands flock to their cause.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2015 18:30:05 GMT -5
Bert old mate, I love those lyrics. God gave us all a brain to think for ourselves. I could be wrong, but don't think we have to conform to some belief system worked out by a human being. We should be guided by God, not by a system that the inventor states is the "Truth". What you believe to be true, may not be true for me.
What is truth???. Nobody knows. Even the Courts of the land battle with that. They try, but in the end it comes down the belief of an individual. We have to accept it as a true decision, but so often there are doubts. Impossible to establish "Truth".
No matter what they tell us No matter what they do No matter what they teach us What we believe is true
What you believe Bert is true for you, what I believe is true for me. But we do not try to force that on one another, we respect each other, and learn from it. Bert old mate, I see you as a deep thinker, and with great intellect. I tend to be shallow, and a free thinker. But I love you, and hope that you love me.
I can't deny what I believe I can't be what I'm not I know our love forever I know, no matter what
I am what I am, I don't try to be someone else.
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Post by SharonArnold on Oct 12, 2015 18:47:46 GMT -5
Bert old mate, I love those lyrics. God gave us all a brain to think for ourselves. I could be wrong, but don't think we have to conform to some belief system worked out by a human being. We should be guided by God, not by a system that the inventor states is the "Truth". What you believe to be true, may not be true for me. What is truth???. Nobody knows. Even the Courts of the land battle with that. They try, but in the end it comes down the belief of an individual. We have to accept it as a true decision, but so often there are doubts. Impossible to establish "Truth". No matter what they tell us No matter what they do No matter what they teach us What we believe is true What you believe Bert is true for you, what I believe is true for me. But we do not try to force that on one another, we respect each other, and learn from it. Bert old mate, I see you as a deep thinker, and with great intellect. I tend to be shallow, and a free thinker. But I love you, and hope that you love me. I can't deny what I believe I can't be what I'm not I know our love forever I know, no matter what I am what I am, I don't try to be someone else. Ummm. I really like what you express...for the most part. Not sure that I agree with the Bert thing. But I agree that it is all about you and what is true for you. Be yourself. I don't think there is a higher calling.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2015 19:07:10 GMT -5
Sharon I love Bert, sure he is very 2x2 orientated, but he is not alone. We too were once like that, until we saw the light. So I can understand his situation. Some of his stuff is deep and meaningful, I like that, even though at times it is a bit over my head. I also think at times he pulls our leg a bit. I find him interesting, would love to have a cuppa with him. Think he has a warped sense of humor like myself. Maybe that is why we click together.
We need variety on TMB, makes it interesting. No need to fight.
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Post by SharonArnold on Oct 12, 2015 19:20:27 GMT -5
Sharon I love Bert, sure he is very 2x2 orientated, but he is not alone. We too were once like that, until we saw the light. So I can understand his situation. Some of his stuff is deep and meaningful, I like that, even though at times it is a bit over my head. I also think at times he pulls our leg a bit. I find him interesting, would love to have a cuppa with him. Think he has a warped sense of humor like myself. Maybe that is why we click together. We need variety on TMB, makes it interesting. No need to fight. Yeah. I know. You are right. So right
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Post by magpie on Oct 14, 2015 16:56:44 GMT -5
Beauty for brokeness------https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaMPE53uP38
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 14, 2015 23:25:03 GMT -5
Yes, -'imagination' is great when it is realized that sometimes what we 'imagine' is attainable, -sometimes it is not.
When it is attainable, -we can only do it with our feet firmly on the ground of reality.
It is wonderful to 'imagine' a 'world without war,' however, it won't ever happen if we don't ground that hope in reality & personally work to make it happen.
We can imagine a world without 'illness' but it isn't going to happen if we continue to have our heads in the clouds instead of someone, somewhere working to find the cause of the 'illness' and a remedy. "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." ~ Isaac Newton I think this is what xna is referring to in his post. <<If mankind continues to progress, in a thousand years much of what we say we are sure of today will probably seem foolish then. That has always been the case, as there seems to be no escaping the pattern of human advancement comes by, standing on the shoulders of the past great ones.>> I can remember when I first came across this quote. It was one of those moments in my life, when the clock stopped ticking, and when it resumed, my world was never quite the same again. I now understand it was derived from: “Bernard of Chartres used to say that we [the Moderns] are like dwarves perched on the shoulders of giants [the Ancients], and thus we are able to see more and farther than the latter. And this is not at all because of the acuteness of our sight or the stature of our body, but because we are carried aloft and elevated by the magnitude of the giants.” (John of Salisbury) There are innumerable “reaching for the stars” quotes that (IMO) have merit. In the end, I would probably take issue with the “feet planted firmly on the ground of reality” assertion.
I think we can look back through history and find a lot of examples of people who had ideas that were far too big for their time. Some of these individuals paid for this dearly, even their lives – but at a later point, other individuals picked up the idea and were able to bring it fruition and, eventually, broad acceptance. So, should they have not had the idea/dreamed the dream because the price was too high? Because it was not grounded in the general "reality" of that time? A number of years ago, I saw an IMAX movie on Africa, and it, in part, featured the herds of wildebeest (I think -though it could have been another type of hoofed mammal) as they migrated across the continent. The take-home lesson for me was that the survival of the individual in the herd was not important, but the survival of the herd was all-important. I will refrain from conclusions that could be reached from this, but suffice it to say, it posed a lot of questions that have become treasured travel companions for me. I have Rumi’s quote “When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy” as a tagline. It is because I truly believe it, and think that a life lived reaching for this/living this, is a life well spent. Whether it is “grounded in reality” doesn’t seem all that important to me. I have a group of friends who tend to hold similar world views to mine. In talking to them, I don’t have to be all that careful in how I express myself, because they mostly understand what I mean. That is not the case with The TMB. But, sometimes, when I listen really hard, I can hear other people expressing (frequently using different terminology) the same kinds of things I understand. To frame this kind of thing in a 2X2 context, I would think of the “ Throw thy soul into the conflict” hymn and the Ecclesiastes Bible verse of “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” Your quote: In the end, I would probably take issue with the “feet planted firmly on the ground of reality” assertion.
I agree with much you said, -however, I still maintain that we can only accomplish what our "imagination" envisions by "keeping our feet firmly on the ground."
IN our "imagination" may well soar into the clouds but indeed, as you said, it is on the shoulders of those before us. However, does who came before us had THEIR feet are firmly on the ground or on the "ground before THEM."
We need our "imagination" but we also need that imagination tethered safely on the realities of the earth's physics: "knowledge of nature", from φύσις phúsis "nature") is the natural science that involves the study of matter and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force." from wiki
Example: Sad will be the person who "imagines" that they can step off a cliff & soar like a bird. However, what they can "imagine" and it CAN become possible is if they "stand on the shoulders"of those who have done the "GROUND" work in aerodynamics!
I love to read Science Fiction, where the imagination can go hog wild BUT it still needs to be internally plausible for me to really enjoy it.
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