Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 16:37:40 GMT -5
@virgo, how much do you understand about alcoholism ? i learnt a lot in my childhood, my grandfather was a full blown drunk but i know you can't blame it on the fellowship as you were eluding to one can always abstain there is always help for that if one chooses it
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Sept 3, 2015 16:48:29 GMT -5
a bit of a long bow to blame his alcoholism on a sip of wine once a week I would tend to agree with virgo on this one. (Not that I can speak with any authority, as my addictions so far in this life would be Ms Pac-man (yup) , hot yoga and the occasional reality TV show (though these have been short-lived).) I really liked this article, and it rang true for me (addiction behavior is pretty complex): www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html"This gives us an insight that goes much deeper than the need to understand addicts. Professor Peter Cohen argues that human beings have a deep need to bond and form connections. It's how we get our satisfaction. If we can't connect with each other, we will connect with anything we can find -- the whirr of a roulette wheel or the prick of a syringe. He says we should stop talking about 'addiction' altogether, and instead call it 'bonding.' A heroin addict has bonded with heroin because she couldn't bond as fully with anything else. So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection." That's an interesting idea. My bro and I had different dads (his died in the war). He and his father (whom he never met) were about as addicted to alcoholic as you could get, and both were very social, easy to love (the sister's workers phrase at the funeral of his dad), musically talented, and neither liked to be alone. They both had wives who adored them (although in the case of bro, it is present tense; he's still married.) Me, I'm a loner--never really connected with anyone growing up, and am still somewhat unconnected--and I'm not addicted to anything (except my next breath, I guess). I'll have to mull this over. My bro said "it was the grace of God that I sobered up one day and have never had another drink." And he's not a religious sort, just gives God the credit for his amazing recovery in his early 40s.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 16:52:53 GMT -5
I would tend to agree with virgo on this one. (Not that I can speak with any authority, as my addictions so far in this life would be Ms Pac-man (yup) , hot yoga and the occasional reality TV show (though these have been short-lived).) I really liked this article, and it rang true for me (addiction behavior is pretty complex): www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html"This gives us an insight that goes much deeper than the need to understand addicts. Professor Peter Cohen argues that human beings have a deep need to bond and form connections. It's how we get our satisfaction. If we can't connect with each other, we will connect with anything we can find -- the whirr of a roulette wheel or the prick of a syringe. He says we should stop talking about 'addiction' altogether, and instead call it 'bonding.' A heroin addict has bonded with heroin because she couldn't bond as fully with anything else. So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection." That's an interesting idea. My bro and I had different dads (his died in the war). He and his father (whom he never met) were about as addicted to alcoholic as you could get, and both were very social, easy to love (the sister's workers phrase at the funeral of his dad), musically talented, and neither liked to be alone. They both had wives who adored them (although in the case of bro, it is present tense; he's still married.) Me, I'm a loner--never really connected with anyone growing up, and am still somewhat unconnected--and I'm not addicted to anything (except my next breath, I guess). I'll have to mull this over. My bro said "it was the grace of God that I sobered up one day and have never had another drink." And he's not a religious sort, just gives God the credit for his amazing recovery in his early 40s. that's a real nice story about you brother thanks for sharing
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 16:56:12 GMT -5
a bit of a long bow to blame his alcoholism on a sip of wine once a week I would tend to agree with virgo on this one. (Not that I can speak with any authority, as my addictions so far in this life would be Ms Pac-man (yup) , hot yoga and the occasional reality TV show (though these have been short-lived).) I really liked this article, and it rang true for me (addiction behavior is pretty complex): www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html"This gives us an insight that goes much deeper than the need to understand addicts. Professor Peter Cohen argues that human beings have a deep need to bond and form connections. It's how we get our satisfaction. If we can't connect with each other, we will connect with anything we can find -- the whirr of a roulette wheel or the prick of a syringe. He says we should stop talking about 'addiction' altogether, and instead call it 'bonding.' A heroin addict has bonded with heroin because she couldn't bond as fully with anything else. So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection." thanks for that Sharon, it has helped me to understand more and how addiction can also be related to loneliness this place is bit like a drug sometimes
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 3, 2015 18:03:29 GMT -5
No, nothing "snarky" about it, just plain old run-of-the-mill atheism. well i know a lot of atheists and they are a lot sweeter than that Geeze, virgo! You know a lot of atheists? Should you be mixing with that crowd of "sinners?"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 20:18:20 GMT -5
well i know a lot of atheists and they are a lot sweeter than that Geeze, virgo! You know a lot of atheists? Should you be mixing with that crowd of "sinners?" do here don't i?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 20:22:53 GMT -5
Not even yours? It doesn't look like a sheep dog and from the look on his face I presume he isn't called "goodness" or "mercy" either? that's my bro you just leave him out of it but in reality i do have a proper sheep dog called a huntaway
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 3, 2015 20:30:53 GMT -5
@virgo, how much do you understand about alcoholism ? i learnt a lot in my childhood, my grandfather was a full blown drunk but i know you can't blame it on the fellowship as you were eluding to one can always abstain there is always help for that if one chooses it @virgo you have showed your lack of understanding of alcoholism by the words, "one can always abstain there is always help for that if one chooses it[/quote]" Yes there is help BUT and it is a big BUT if a person does NOT want help there is little other can do, telling an addict to abstain .... wow !
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 3, 2015 20:39:16 GMT -5
I would tend to agree with virgo on this one. (Not that I can speak with any authority, as my addictions so far in this life would be Ms Pac-man (yup) , hot yoga and the occasional reality TV show (though these have been short-lived).) I really liked this article, and it rang true for me (addiction behavior is pretty complex): www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html"This gives us an insight that goes much deeper than the need to understand addicts. Professor Peter Cohen argues that human beings have a deep need to bond and form connections. It's how we get our satisfaction. If we can't connect with each other, we will connect with anything we can find -- the whirr of a roulette wheel or the prick of a syringe. He says we should stop talking about 'addiction' altogether, and instead call it 'bonding.' A heroin addict has bonded with heroin because she couldn't bond as fully with anything else. So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection." That's an interesting idea. My bro and I had different dads (his died in the war). He and his father (whom he never met) were about as addicted to alcoholic as you could get, and both were very social, easy to love (the sister's workers phrase at the funeral of his dad), musically talented, and neither liked to be alone. They both had wives who adored them (although in the case of bro, it is present tense; he's still married.) Me, I'm a loner--never really connected with anyone growing up, and am still somewhat unconnected--and I'm not addicted to anything (except my next breath, I guess). I'll have to mull this over. My bro said "it was the grace of God that I sobered up one day and have never had another drink." And he's not a religious sort, just gives God the credit for his amazing recovery in his early 40s. I agree hberry, it is way more than needing "human connection". What about people that have mental illness who then use alcohol as an escape, what is human connection going to do for them? I suppose the next thing they will try to say is that mental illness isn't caused by a chemical imbalance.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 3, 2015 21:09:36 GMT -5
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 3, 2015 21:12:50 GMT -5
"2. Enabling is a Real Threat to Addicts Hari decries, at one point, the television program Intervention and addiction interventions generally. “So what they do is they take the connection to the addict, and they threaten it, they make it contingent on the addict behaving the way they want,” Hari said. “And I began to think, I began to see why that approach doesn't work, and I began to think that's almost like the importing of the logic of the Drug War into our private lives.” Hari adds that he encourages the addicts in his own life to reach out to him for companionship. “And what I've tried to do now… is to say to the addicts in my life that I want to deepen the connection with them, to say to them, I love you whether you're using or you're not. I love you, whatever state you're in, and if you need me, I'll come and sit with you because I love you and I don't want you to be alone or to feel alone.” This is a powerful, beautiful statement, and it is right. There is also ample room for debate on the value of traditional interventions, but Hari misrepresents the logic behind them. While he is correct in noting that interventions threaten addicts and, in effect, punish them into treatment, this is not their true purpose. Their logic is one that recognizes that for all of the isolation associated with addiction, it is a disease which spreads from addicts to their families and friends, and can only persist through enabling, which itself becomes a compulsion for those who get trapped in it. Interventions are supposed to give the addict’s enablers the opportunity to collectively, publicly establish the healthy boundaries which have been missing in their relationships. It is also irresponsible for Hari to speak to a general audience—more than 1,000,000 views online already—about the need to deepen their relationships with the addicts in their lives without an accompanying warning about addicts’ tendencies to blow through boundaries and take advantage of the people who seek to help them. Maybe Hari assumes that people already know this, but the tens of millions of people enabling the millions of addicts in our society indicates that the word hasn’t gotten out. If Hari had asked me to call him on my worst days, I would have tried to manipulate him for money or other resources until he said no, or until I had borrowed too much to ever pay back. Then I would have been the one cutting him off." www.thefix.com/content/4-things-hari-gets-wrong-about-addiction
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Post by Mary on Sept 3, 2015 22:21:56 GMT -5
Maryhig doesn't go to the friends and workers meetings she belongs to a different group that has meetings. So as far as I know no cup of tea or biscuits for you if your thinking of returning to meetings. If you want that you have to go to Maryhig's group. Or better still Ross's as his has a meal just like they did in Acts and it's closer for you Roselyn. Maryhig also has juice in her meeting. The worker above would not accept that as he said if there's no wine or grape juice then don't have the emblems (the non Biblical word Virgo uses for bread and wine). I don't drink alcohol myself!! Maybe that was how my brother became an alcoholic, because we had wine in meetings. He became one while professing. a bit of a long bow to blame his alcoholism on a sip of wine once a week I was thinking about where the worker above wrote that they do not have wine in meeting because someone who professed might have been an alcoholic. I was pointing out that there are those who become alcoholics while professing. Not only my brother, but another highly regarded 2x2 with a daughter who is a worker, would often come around to our house with blood shot eyes and a box of beer in the boot/trunk of his car, not to mention smelling of it. Many churches do not have wine for the reason this worker mentioned.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 23:17:35 GMT -5
i learnt a lot in my childhood, my grandfather was a full blown drunk but i know you can't blame it on the fellowship as you were eluding to one can always abstain there is always help for that if one chooses it @virgo you have showed your lack of understanding of alcoholism by the words, "one can always abstain there is always help for that if one chooses it " Yes there is help BUT and it is a big BUT if a person does NOT want help there is little other can do, telling an addict to abstain .... wow ! [/quote] is that all you can say telling an addict to abstain .... wow ! everybody in the end has to abstain from something in their lives others have to abstain from things that make them addicts or they die because of some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition i don't really care what you think if you think i have lack of understanding, seeing as you know it all and you can enlighten all the dummies
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 3, 2015 23:28:22 GMT -5
@virgo you have showed your lack of understanding of alcoholism by the words, "one can always abstain there is always help for that if one chooses it " Yes there is help BUT and it is a big BUT if a person does NOT want help there is little other can do, telling an addict to abstain .... wow ! is that all you can say telling an addict to abstain .... wow ! everybody in the end has to abstain from something in their lives others have to abstain from things that make them addicts or they die because of some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition i don't really care what you think if you think i have lack of understanding, seeing as you know it all and you can enlighten all the dummies [/quote] Yes, I ,for one, -do you think that you do have lack of understanding of the reasons for addictions of any kind. If you would attempt to keep up on the information that we are learning about addition, -you wouldn't need to feel that you are a "dummy" as you seem to feel that you are.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 0:05:38 GMT -5
@virgo you have showed your lack of understanding of alcoholism by the words, "one can always abstain there is always help for that if one chooses it " Yes there is help BUT and it is a big BUT if a person does NOT want help there is little other can do, telling an addict to abstain .... wow ! is that all you can say telling an addict to abstain .... wow ! everybody in the end has to abstain from something in their lives others have to abstain from things that make them addicts or they die because of some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition i don't really care what you think if you think i have lack of understanding, seeing as you know it all and you can enlighten all the dummies @virgo, do some research ! Go to a few AA meetings, talk to people who have lived with alcoholics, talk to an alcoholic ! "some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition" So is this your opinion about people who have mental illness too ? So people with Bi-polar have to "just grow some guts" ? Do some research into what addiction is @virgo ! [/quote]
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 1:02:42 GMT -5
So I take it you don't have an answer @virgo ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 3:58:34 GMT -5
So I take it you don't have an answer @virgo ? what do i need an answer for?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 4:03:41 GMT -5
So I take it you don't have an answer @virgo ? what do i need an answer for? I asked if people who have bi-polar have to "grow some guts" ?? Or only alcoholics ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 4:04:04 GMT -5
So I take it you don't have an answer @virgo ? you know not everyone here hovers over their keyboard waiting to answer you they might have other things to do...take a chill pill...
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 5:01:26 GMT -5
So I take it you don't have an answer @virgo ? you know not everyone here hovers over their keyboard waiting to answer you they might have other things to do...take a chill pill... Hey @wally I thought I asked @virgo ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 10:25:45 GMT -5
Beth quote - "It's part of our worship, reaffirming God's love and forgiveness. And a time of intimate fellowship between us and God! It shouldn't be reduced to a list of rules like whether it's covered, what it's covered with, how it's disposed of, etc...as long as it's done with the proper understanding and reverence, those things don't matter. I see nothing written in the Bible concerning any of those things anyway.
Jesus words to the Pharisees should be a warning to all of us: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"
You know Beth, there are people here who say that final gathering was a Passover meal, and it "doesn't matter" how we meet, or even, if we meet at all. I hate that term "doesn't matter" because frankly, there are things which DO matter. Some on this board say swearing "doesn't matter" disrespectful dress "doesn't matter" marriage "doesn't matter" going to church "doesn't matter" sex and violence "doesn't matter" the ministry as Jesus showed "doesn't matter" etc
Matters with me. It mattered with God, too.
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Post by bluejay on Sept 4, 2015 19:40:40 GMT -5
I've noticed that when f&w's describe their Sunday fellowship meetings and Wed. night Bible study gatherings, they often use the adjective "little", This thread is titled "A little home church". It seems to be important that the size of the 'church' is classified as little. Yes the Sunday and Wednesday groups are on the small side, but they ALSO gather in a large group for Gospel meetings and conventions.
Amongst the people I meet with for fellowship and Bible study, I've never heard our groups described as little. And yet, often there are only 8 or so of us that gather regularly in homes in each group.
Why is it important for those in the fellowship to use that term?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 4, 2015 20:27:49 GMT -5
Years ago a dear old man told his testimony.
He lived back in Cooney times (Cooney was a Worker who big-noted himself and broke away from our church)
How did Cooney "big-note" himself, Bert?You say he "broke away" - how did this come about? I presume you know he tried to be re-admitted to the fellowship (especially for the sake of those who sympathised with him), but was turned away? Where are you getting your version of history, Bert?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 20:29:24 GMT -5
I've noticed that when f&w's describe their Sunday fellowship meetings and Wed. night Bible study gatherings, they often use the adjective "little", This thread is titled "A little home church". It seems to be important that the size of the 'church' is classified as little. Yes the Sunday and Wednesday groups are on the small side, but they ALSO gather in a large group for Gospel meetings and conventions. Amongst the people I meet with for fellowship and Bible study, I've never heard our groups described as little. And yet, often there are only 8 or so of us that gather regularly in homes in each group. Why is it important for those in the fellowship to use that term? bluejay, I have often wondered that too, I remember a worker calling me in regard to the CSA issue in Victoria a few years ago, using the words "we will send you a little letter"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 21:53:43 GMT -5
you know not everyone here hovers over their keyboard waiting to answer you they might have other things to do...take a chill pill... Hey @wally I thought I asked @virgo ? thanks wally for commenting
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 4, 2015 22:17:33 GMT -5
@virgo you have showed your lack of understanding of alcoholism by the words, "one can always abstain there is always help for that if one chooses it " Yes there is help BUT and it is a big BUT if a person does NOT want help there is little other can do, telling an addict to abstain .... wow ! is that all you can say telling an addict to abstain .... wow ! everybody in the end has to abstain from something in their lives others have to abstain from things that make them addicts or they die because of some people just have to grow some guts and do it for themselves or they can just go on and blame somebody or even the world for their condition i don't really care what you think if you think i have lack of understanding, seeing as you know it all and you can enlighten all the dummies [/quote]
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 21:10:41 GMT -5
Beth quote - "It's part of our worship, reaffirming God's love and forgiveness. And a time of intimate fellowship between us and God! It shouldn't be reduced to a list of rules like whether it's covered, what it's covered with, how it's disposed of, etc...as long as it's done with the proper understanding and reverence, those things don't matter. I see nothing written in the Bible concerning any of those things anyway. Jesus words to the Pharisees should be a warning to all of us: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!" You know Beth, there are people here who say that final gathering was a Passover meal, and it "doesn't matter" how we meet, or even, if we meet at all. I hate that term "doesn't matter" because frankly, there are things which DO matter. Some on this board say swearing "doesn't matter" disrespectful dress "doesn't matter" marriage "doesn't matter" going to church "doesn't matter" sex and violence "doesn't matter" the ministry as Jesus showed "doesn't matter" etc
Matters with me. It mattered with God, too.OK. I didn't say it didn't matter how we met or if we met at all. Or anything about swearing, etc... So I'm not sure the reasoning behind all that being brought up. Of course there are things that do matter...I never said there weren't. I meant I don't see why it matters whether the bread and wine is covered with saran wrap or a napkin...or whether you sit in a circle when you meet or in some other arrangement...or whether you have 2 pieces of bread or one. But I do know there are some who cannot make such decisions without asking a worker, so...hence the reason he addressed all of that.
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Post by breakingfree on Sept 6, 2015 9:48:33 GMT -5
I've noticed that when f&w's describe their Sunday fellowship meetings and Wed. night Bible study gatherings, they often use the adjective "little", This thread is titled "A little home church". It seems to be important that the size of the 'church' is classified as little. Yes the Sunday and Wednesday groups are on the small side, but they ALSO gather in a large group for Gospel meetings and conventions. Amongst the people I meet with for fellowship and Bible study, I've never heard our groups described as little. And yet, often there are only 8 or so of us that gather regularly in homes in each group. Why is it important for those in the fellowship to use that term? I thinks it's because it conveys humility. The F&W are very concerned about appearing humble.
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