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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2015 14:48:11 GMT -5
Review05, I am a human being, therefore my son, Brian is also a human being just like me. God the Father is God so is His Son Jesus the same/nature/Being as His heavenly Father.
God the Father called His Son/Christ, "Lord and God" in Hebrews 1:8-12
Jesus is the Son of God; He is God's Son. The Father sent the Son to redeem mankind and be our Savior.
Paul wrote in Col 1:9 For in him/Jesus dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
We read in Revelation chapter 5 it speaks of ten thousands time ten thousands of the angels, the redeemers sang a new song, worshipping God the Father, and the Lamb/Jesus of God to receive their praises, thanksgiving, and adoration. Nathan, are you talking about a family of gods? One god sent another god to redeem mankind?
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Post by howitis on Aug 31, 2015 14:53:41 GMT -5
@ross stated 'Stephen is an example from early Acts. He prayed as he died "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit". Isn't that correct? isn't that how it should be? Is there something abnormal about that prayer?...Think about it 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit'......Stephen was going to God, through the Son, the intercessor, just as Jesus taught, it's a beautiful picture this man, broken in body, crying out and Jesus reaching down so lovingly to receive his spirit and pass it onto God.....pretty sad if any of us think we'll be getting to God some other way!
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2015 15:14:02 GMT -5
Nathan seems to be talking about them being one family not many families.
Seems that you can pray to Jesus and He will take it to the Father. Good examples of people crying out to Jesus here. Thanks.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 31, 2015 16:46:27 GMT -5
Seems as if review worships, he does not know who. Christians consider Jesus worthy of our worship and one with the Father. enufdo you have enuf faith to believe these words of Jesus? "John 15:16 ......: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." Do you pray to the Father asking it in Jesus (the Son's) name? I don't mind at all if you dont! Pray to Jesus if that is what you feel is right! Yes I believe this also, I pray to the father in the name of our lord Jesus. Jesus taught us to pay directly to God. The lords prayer starts "our father" Jesus also says this in Matthew 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2015 16:59:30 GMT -5
I have faith enough to know that if I pray Lord Jesus hear my prayer that He will take it to the Father and interceed for me.
I trust that He accepts my worship and prayers. I trust Jesus who has done it for me to take it to the Father.
Ask of the Father in my name means in Jesus name.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 31, 2015 17:09:20 GMT -5
enufdo you have enuf faith to believe these words of Jesus? "John 15:16 ......: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." Do you pray to the Father asking it in Jesus (the Son's) name? I don't mind at all if you dont! Pray to Jesus if that is what you feel is right! Jesus said "NO man can come to the Father except through me!" Jesus is the bridge for any man to come to the Father." Without Jesus' intercession no one can appear before God the Father. EVERY one must go through Jesus! because He is God's Son. God the Father has given ALL power to the Son. Everyone must go through the Son First before they can meet the Father.
No man or woman can approach God the Father's presence on their own will. He is too Pure and Holy... EVERY one has to go through the Son first! He died for our sins so we can stand before God the Father without sins.
So do you pray to God or Jesus? I pray to God and at the end of my prayer I say through our lord Jesus Christ. Jesus told us to pray directly to the father. He even says the following, when he was asked by the deciples how to pray. Luke 11 When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Jesus is clearly telling us to pray directly to God.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 31, 2015 17:22:22 GMT -5
So do you pray to God or Jesus? I pray to God and at the end of my prayer I say through our lord Jesus Christ. Jesus told us to pray directly to the father. He even says the following, when he was asked by the deciples how to pray. Luke 11 When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Jesus is clearly telling us to pray directly to God. I pray Both.... to the Father and the Son= Godhead. Jesus is God just like the Father is. When we gather for Sunday morning worship meetings we pray, give thanksgiving, sing praises to God the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit=Godhead. I've never seen anywhere in the bible telling us to pray to Jesus, only God. Jesus himself told us to pray to God too. Where does the bible teach us to pray to Jesus? Thanks
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Post by maryhig on Aug 31, 2015 17:26:55 GMT -5
So do you pray to God or Jesus? I pray to God and at the end of my prayer I say through our lord Jesus Christ. Jesus told us to pray directly to the father. He even says the following, when he was asked by the deciples how to pray. Luke 11 When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Jesus is clearly telling us to pray directly to God. I pray Both.... to the Father and the Son= Godhead. Jesus is God just like the Father is. When we gather for Sunday morning worship meetings we pray, give thanksgiving, sing praises to God the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit=Godhead.
Sunday worship meetings are foretaste of the real thing what the redeemers are doing in heaven right now! Read Revelation chapter 5. The Redeemers worship God the Father and the Lamb of God who died for our sins.
But then your saying that your people when they pray on a Sunday believe in the trinity. I get a completely different impression here. They don't seem to believe in the trinity but that God is the only God and he is the father and Jesus is the son. Like me?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 31, 2015 17:47:28 GMT -5
Review05, I am a human being, therefore my son, Brian is also a human being just like me. God the Father is God so is His Son Jesus the same/nature/Being as His heavenly Father.God the Father called His Son/Christ, "Lord and God" in Hebrews 1:8-12Jesus is the Son of God; He is God's Son. The Father sent the Son to redeem mankind and be our Savior.Paul wrote in Col 1:9 For in him/Jesus dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.We read in Revelation chapter 5 it speaks of ten thousands time ten thousands of the angels, the redeemers sang a new song, worshipping God the Father, and the Lamb/Jesus of God to receive their praises, thanksgiving, and adoration. Nathan, are you talking about a family of gods?One god sent another god to redeem mankind? Right! If the father & the son & the holy spirit are separate beings, then you are worshiping a pantheon of gods! So that would make your belief "pantheistic" instead of "monotheistic" and we can't have that, can we? So the need arises to put all three together into one godhead!
Clever, that!
Never underestimate what people will do in order to keep their beliefs in their gods.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 31, 2015 17:49:40 GMT -5
Enuf and Nathan, you pray to The Father and the Son,......cool! ...... That doesn't do my head in (subject of thread) . Nobody wants to or could persuade you otherwise. This forum is for discussing our understanding of Scripture and application of it in our lives.....and you have stated yours. Mary hig Appreciate your post and understanding of Scripture and what it teaches of praying to our Heavenly Father. Yes review, our meeting all pray to God who is as you say, our heavenly father and we end our prayers in the name of our lord Jesus Christ or through our lord Jesus Christ. Like I believe you do
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Post by howitis on Aug 31, 2015 17:50:27 GMT -5
So here we have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, all united as one that we can know of a relationship with our Heavenly Father. We worship God, through Christ, whom we have fellowship with and take comfort from the Holy Spirit, sent to be our comforter and assure us that the prayers, yearnings, groanings and deep need within our hearts will be presented to God through Christ Jesus! Three in one, one in three all doing different jobs that we may one day be presented as acceptable in the sight of God. It concerns me that in many churches they ask for things 'in the name of God, the Son and the Holy Ghost'.....I actually can't see in the scriptures where we should be doing this.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 31, 2015 18:00:50 GMT -5
So here we have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, all united as one that we can know of a relationship with our Heavenly Father. We worship God, through Christ, whom we have fellowship with and take comfort from the Holy Spirit, sent to be our comforter and assure us that the prayers, yearnings, groanings and deep need within our hearts will be presented to God through Christ Jesus! Three in one, one in three all doing different jobs that we may one day be presented as acceptable in the sight of God. It concerns me that in many churches they ask for things 'in the name of God, the Son and the Holy Ghost'.....I actually can't see in the scriptures where we should be doing this. Yes I also worship God through Christ. But I don't worship Christ as God. I see all three as one in mind, heart, soul and strength and we can become one with them if we give our hearts to God. But I believe the father is the head and is over all. I believe there is only one God, God almighty our heavenly father. And his son on his right hand, who has been given all power from the father. And the holy spirit who is sent by Christ Jesus to our hearts, to guide and strengthen us.
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Post by howitis on Aug 31, 2015 18:20:18 GMT -5
Yes maryhig, I don't believe it's meant to be confusing....pretty straight forward really!
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2015 18:30:40 GMT -5
Nathan, are you talking about a family of gods?One god sent another god to redeem mankind? Right! If the father & the son & the holy spirit are separate beings, then you are worshiping a pantheon of gods! So that would make your belief "pantheistic" instead of "monotheistic" and we can't have that, can we? So the need arises to put all three together into one godhead!
Clever, that!
Never underestimate what people will do in order to keep their beliefs in their gods.
Clever? It's about as clever as the "Real Presence" doctrine IMO. "Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?" "What is the Holy Trinity?" "Why, it's the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one-in-three, three-in-one, everywhere and nowhere, everything and nothing. The Son is begotten of the Father, but was not created by the Father, and is co-eternal with the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, but is co-eternal with them and not created. They are the same, yet distinct. They are each wholly God, and they are each distinctly God, but there is only one God without parts or divisions." "I don't even understand what you said. How could I possibly either believe or disbelieve?" "Heretic!"
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Post by maryhig on Aug 31, 2015 18:52:00 GMT -5
Yes maryhig, I don't believe it's meant to be confusing....pretty straight forward really! It is very confusing if you THINK about it....Maryh wrote: Yes I also worship God through Christ. But I don't worship Christ as God. I see all three as one in mind, heart, soul and strength and we can become one with them if we give our hearts to God. But I believe the father is the head and is over all. I believe there is only one God, God almighty our heavenly father. And his son on his right hand, who has been given all power from the father. And the holy spirit who is sent by Christ Jesus to our hearts, to guide and strengthen us. ~~ We pray through and in Jesus Christ's name because he's part of the Godhead. Christ is part of the Godhead then how can't he be NOT God. The Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit have ONE mind because they are the Godhead. God the Father has a role to fill= He is the Head/over all things, Christ became the Son to die and redeem sinners and the Holy Spirit roles to reveal/teach who are the Father and the Son to the believers.
We know both the Father and the Son are Almighty God according to Jesus in Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” The word Elohim/God is plural refers to the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
Sorry Nathan, I don't agree. And I'm not getting into a big debate on the trinity again, because it goes on and on. I think we know each other's beliefs on this.
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Post by howitis on Aug 31, 2015 18:52:56 GMT -5
Stop thinking then nathan and let the Holy Spirit guide you, oh sorry here's lil old me talking to an ex worker an all, but YOU think about it for a minute, if God intended us to need all those books and resources you pull your stuff from to support your argument (and I don't actually see you as arguing), something is just not quite right!! Why do many churches pray 'we ask in the name of God, the Son and Holy Spirit/Ghost'? Why do they do that when it tells us to ask in the name of Jesus? Are they afraid they're leaving something to chance? Where is their faith? Sorry, but I don't want to be like that!
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Post by howitis on Aug 31, 2015 19:04:45 GMT -5
So why the confusion Nathan?
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Post by howitis on Aug 31, 2015 19:21:11 GMT -5
So why the confusion Nathan? There is no confusion on my part... I have explained it clearly what I believe about the Godhead.Now that IS confusing....you just said it was!!!
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Post by howitis on Aug 31, 2015 19:36:19 GMT -5
Thanks Ross
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Post by howitis on Aug 31, 2015 20:05:20 GMT -5
So then @ross and Nathan, why do churches ask for things ',in the name of God, the Son and Holy Ghost'? Are they not sure who to ask? Or are they so confused they're afraid of doing it wrong? Why do they do it? It is certainly not scriptural!
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Post by howitis on Aug 31, 2015 20:14:16 GMT -5
Really Nathan??? Or are you just avoiding the question? We are told to ask things in the name of Jesus, that's not what many churches do.....well they do but add God and the Holy Ghost. Why? Are they worried Jesus won't do the job?
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2015 20:39:28 GMT -5
I haven't heard in the name of God, the Son and Holy Spirit. I have heard in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Maybe your church uses the first one whatitis but what kind of church are you talking about who says it.
Workers baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Listen to the prayers of those in meetings and see what they say when they start to pray. Some will say dear Jesus, Lord Jesus while others say Father.
I didn't hear the words in the name of but they said, for Jesus sake, Amen. What ever for Jesus sake meant.
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2015 20:43:43 GMT -5
So then @ross and Nathan, why do churches ask for things ',in the name of God, the Son and Holy Ghost'? Are they not sure who to ask? Or are they so confused they're afraid of doing it wrong? Why do they do it? It is certainly not scriptural! Not sure what you are saying but I'll attempt.... It's very scriptural to ask for things in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - that is, the name of God. Jesus asked for people to be baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I'm happy for you to answer my question Why do you and others continue to worship someone who you declare is not God?
I've never received an answer from a 2x2 person who does this yet. You can be first. Maryhig (not a 2x2) told me that she doesn't worship Jesus. I accept that at face value although they do use the 2x2 hymn book so I'm not how that works?? And of course, the Apostles and disciples worshipped Jesus. Ross, do you think your Trinitarian dogma was worth losing so many lives over? Trinitarians during the Inquisition covered the face of Jesus in the painting on the wall so that he couldn't see them torturing good Christian folk. How do you think Jesus would feel about the burning of Michael Servetus over his rejection of the Trinity? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_ServetusCalvin played a part in that, yet Calvin had a lot to say about grace. Go figure!
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 31, 2015 21:44:04 GMT -5
As you know, I believe that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I normally pray to the Father but I have no problem calling upon Jesus or the Holy Spirit. For example, I will pray to the Father to send Jesus again quickly....I will also pray to Christ and say "Lord, Jesus come quickly..." Almighty God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We have been baptised in the name of Almighty God. Ross a)Glad you normally pray to the Father. I presume you do it in Jesus' name? b)Wonder who the ' we' is in your last statement about baptism. It doesn't include your mother, your other family members, me or anyone in my family. It is an anglican evangelical baptismal practice? adult? or adult and infant? It isn't anyone in our fellowship that I know of. I and every person I know of in our fellowship were baptized in the words in Mat 28: KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: ESV Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, NIV Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ROV (ross own version) Almighty God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We have been baptised in the name of Almighty God.
Your ability to massage scripture to your trinity view is legendary, is unscriptural and suggests you have cognitive dissonance!! (or do you feel that only applies to the ministry of your mother's church?) "hope this is of help to you cheers"review @review005 you cannot help yourself can you ? Always bringing @ross's family into things. But I suppose you showed your true colours with your response on the Domestic Violence thread, by blaming me for not reporting my father when I was 4 years old !
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2015 21:52:30 GMT -5
Why do you and others continue to worship someone who you declare is not God? I've never received an answer from a 2x2 person who does this yet. You can be first. Do you have the same hang up with those in scripture who "worshipped" the son of God?
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2015 22:40:59 GMT -5
Do you have the same hang up with those in scripture who "worshipped" the son of God? No, because they worshipped Him as Son of God and God. The Apostles knew that only God - Yahweh, was to be worshipped. Chapter and verse? (Please don't give me the tired old Thomas verse)
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2015 23:16:41 GMT -5
Chapter and verse? (Please don't give me the tired old Thomas verse) Worshipping God the Father and the Son/Jesus~~ Mathew 2:1-2 The wise men came to worship Jesus ~~ Matt 8:2 A leper came and worship Jesus ~~ Matt 9:18 A certain ruler came to worship Jesus ~~ Matt 15:25 A woman came to worship Jesus ~~ Luke 24:52 The Disciples of Jesus worship Him ~~ Hebrews 1:6 The angels of God worship Jesus Yes, they worshipped Jesus. Ross says we shouldn't do that.
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Post by fixit on Sept 1, 2015 0:31:19 GMT -5
I've been reading up on the history of Smyrna/Ephesus recently as prep for a visit there. Polycarp was the Bishop of Smyrna and lived in the period AD69 - 155. He is one the apostolic church Fathers and was a disciple of John the Apostle. His widely regarded "Letter to the Philippians" which is reasonably short has an interesting verse: "Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High-priest Himself the [Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth, and in all gentleness and in all avoidance of wrath and in forbearance and long suffering and in patient endurance and in purity; and may He grant unto you a lot and portion among His saints, and to us with you, and to all that are under heaven, who shall believe on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on His Father that raised him from the dead." Jesus is clearly referenced as the Son of God, Lord and God. The Father is clearly referenced as God. Are you using extra-biblical literature to add to scripture?
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