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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 5:38:19 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 5:40:57 GMT -5
What actually is the doctrine of the Trinity?
"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons; nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. "But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, so is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. "The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. "And yet there are not three eternals, but one eternal. Also there are not three incomprehensibles, not three uncreated: but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. "So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. "So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods: but one God. "So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords but one Lord. "For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone: not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. "So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
You will NEVER read anything like this in the bible!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 5:47:41 GMT -5
From the Antipas.org website COUNCIL OF NICE Of the Council of Nice, 352 A.D., where the doctrine of the Trinity was first officially formulated, the well-known trinitarian historian Mosheim, a Lutheran, admits (Century 4, Part 2, Chapter 3, Section 1)
"....the discussions concerning the three persons in the Godhead, among those who approved the decisions of the council of Nice. "There is so little clearness and discrimination in these discussions, that they seem to rend the one God into three Gods. "Moreover, those idle fictions, which a regard for the prevailing opinions of the day had induced most theologians to embrace, even before the time of Constantine, were now in various ways confirmed, extended and embellished. "Hence it is that we see on every side evident traces of excessive veneration for saints in heaven, of belief in a fire to purify souls on leaving the body, of partiality for priestly celibacy, the worship of images and relics, and for many other opinions which, in process of time, almost banished the true religion, or at least very much obscured and corrupted it. "Genuine piety was gradually supplanted by a long train of superstitious observances, which were derived partly from a preposterous disposition to adopt profane rites. "To the temples, to water consecrated with certain forms, and to likenesses of holy men, the same efficacy was ascribed and the same privileges assigned, as had been attributed to the pagan temples, statues and lustrations before the advent of Christ."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 5:54:03 GMT -5
Returning to Mosheim's history of the 4th century, he records concerning the conduct and character of the church leaders Cent.4, Part 2, Chap. 2, Sec. 5) - "The bishop of Rome took precedence over all others of the episcopal order. He exceeded all other bishops in the splendor of the church over which he presided, in the magnitude of his revenues and possessions, and in the sumptuousness and magnificence of his style of living. "These marks of power and worldly greatness were so fascinating to the minds of Christians even in this age that often the most obstinate and bloody contests took place at Rome when a new pontiff was to be created. "A shocking example of this is afforded by the disturbance at Rome in the year 366. The contention caused a cruel war, great loss of life, conflagrations and battles." Section 8 - "The vices of the clergy, especially of those who officiated in large and opulent cities, were augmented in proportion to the increase of their wealth, honors and advantages. The bishops had shameful quarrels among themselves respecting the extent of their jurisdiction and boundaries; and while they trampled on the rights of the people and of the inferior clergy, they vied with the civil governors of provinces in luxury, arrogance and voluptuousness."
Did the doctrine of the Trinity help these evil men to "understand God better"?
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Post by fixit on Aug 28, 2015 5:58:14 GMT -5
"Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?"
"What is the Holy Trinity?"
"Why, it's the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one-in-three, three-in-one, everywhere and nowhere, everything and nothing. The Son is begotten of the Father, but was not created by the Father, and is co-eternal with the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, but is co-eternal with them and not created. They are the same, yet distinct. They are each wholly God, and they are each distinctly God, but there is only one God without parts or divisions."
"I don't even understand what you said. How could I possibly either believe or disbelieve?"
"Heretic!"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 19:13:27 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert - some long posts about why you don't believe Jesus is worthy of our worship, adoration and praise. From your posts, the only logical conclusion is that if you had been in the scene in Matthew 28:17 - arguably when Jesus gave His most instruction in the Bible - that you would not only have been one of the doubters but you would have said to Jesus "Sorry, I'm not going to worship you like the other apostles because you are not God".
That's probably a non sequitur Ross. It's one thing to worship Jesus as our Lord, but He's not God. What did David say? "THE Lord said to MY Lord."
I see this trinity business as more or less agreeing that you believe in the entire panoply of Catholic doctrines, and thus, Catholicism in general.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 28, 2015 19:19:03 GMT -5
You should have posted that on the humor channel.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 22:38:53 GMT -5
Bert, Be VERY careful that you don't want to take away, add or say anything isn't TRUE from the book of Revelation... Don't say Jesus isn't God when He said He is "God" or He will take your part/name out of the book of life, and be cast out of the New heaven/earth.i'm gonna have to disagree with this @nathanb I believe in the trinity but I don't believe its a requirement for salvation...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 22:44:51 GMT -5
It's worth reading the story of how they came to this **** political ***** decision on the doctrine of the Trinity. I should find it again and post it here.
Anything which is important in the bible is stated clearly and unequivocally so there will be no excuse.
And just to inflame people - Jesus wasn't into "doctrines" in a big way. His concern was with love and example.
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Post by howitis on Aug 28, 2015 22:52:47 GMT -5
What exactly does the word 'Godhead' mean? Go back to the source, then form an opinion, not from what another thinks, but from the meaning of the original word. Please take into account that some words have had their meaning altered over time. Next pray about it, for your own personal revelation, not from a worker, a priest, a pastor, a leaflet, a friend or the internet.....true conviction is of self!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 23:03:34 GMT -5
i'm gonna have to disagree with this @nathanb I believe in the trinity but I don't believe its a requirement for salvation... Jesus said to the Jews who did NOT believe he was God/Godhead, the Son of God, the Lord God Savior/Messiah they died in their sins. Without believing in Jesus the son of God, or part of Godhead people will receive NO forgiveness from God the Father. So, I say it's a requirement to believe Jesus is God/Godhead, the Son of God, and our Savior to be SAVED.
Jesus said in John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
i'm looking at those verses with an open mind and I just don't see it saying Godhead or God is a requirement for salvation. I know Thomas called him God and i'm okay with that but even then it doesn't say anything to the effect "you shall believe I am the Godhead/God or you shall perish...
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Post by snow on Aug 29, 2015 11:38:00 GMT -5
i'm gonna have to disagree with this @nathanb I believe in the trinity but I don't believe its a requirement for salvation... Jesus said to the Jews who did NOT believe he was God/Godhead, the Son of God, the Lord God Savior/Messiah they died in their sins. Without believing in Jesus the son of God, or part of Godhead people will receive NO forgiveness from God the Father. So, I say it's a requirement to believe Jesus is God/Godhead, the Son of God, and our Savior to be SAVED.
Jesus said in John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Nathan, it clearly says Jesus is the Son of God, not God the son. I don't think there is a Christian around that doesn't believe Jesus isn't the son of God. The only reason why the trinity exists is because of the Catholic church and it was in response to the pagans that felt that they were not monotheistic because they worshiped 3 Gods not one. So they devised a terminology that tried to deal with that. And voila the Trinity doctrine was born! I still think it's very Pagan and so much of Christianity's beliefs are derived from a Pagan mindset. It's kind of a failed marriage between Judaism and Paganism.
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Post by fixit on Aug 29, 2015 15:29:31 GMT -5
What exactly does the word 'Godhead' mean? Go back to the source, then form an opinion, not from what another thinks, but from the meaning of the original word. Please take into account that some words have had their meaning altered over time. Next pray about it, for your own personal revelation, not from a worker, a priest, a pastor, a leaflet, a friend or the internet.....true conviction is of self!! All you have to do is read the Bible - it's relatively simple All you have to do is read the Bible - WITH AN OPEN MIND!You like to quote the following: Have you thought about what went before that in Thomas's experience? How about this:
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Post by fred on Aug 29, 2015 17:52:59 GMT -5
This a good verse for the Trinitarians to quote.
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Post by fixit on Aug 29, 2015 19:27:26 GMT -5
This a good verse for the Trinitarians to quote. That's a tricky one to get your head around.... Jesus sent himself?
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Post by fixit on Aug 30, 2015 1:40:46 GMT -5
That's a tricky one to get your head around.... Jesus sent himself? No, God the Father who sent Him/Jesus as God's son or the Son of God down to earth. Jesus said to the 12 apostles before sending them on their first mission in Matthew 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him/God the Father that sent me. Yes, God the father sent Jesus. Looking at Jesus was looking at the father who sent him, because the father was IN Jesus. John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.
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Post by fred on Aug 30, 2015 2:27:35 GMT -5
No, God the Father who sent Him/Jesus as God's son or the Son of God down to earth. Jesus said to the 12 apostles before sending them on their first mission in Matthew 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him/God the Father that sent me. Yes, God the father sent Jesus. Looking at Jesus was looking at the father who sent him, because the father was IN Jesus. John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.Yes, because those who saw (believed) Jesus saw more than a physical man. They saw one who could forgive sins, who could heal sickness and disease, who could bring a dead person back to life, and even resurrect himself from the dead. Small wonder that they would worship him, an act reserved for God alone. And yet he spoke of his Father in heaven. Are you confused yet? I don't believe his disciples were.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2015 6:49:04 GMT -5
Lots of "Christian" groups existed, even in Jesus' own day. These were not recognized by the Apostolic Church. But for sure, they were well known to historians due to their noise, political aspirations, visibility etc..
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Post by snow on Aug 30, 2015 11:03:50 GMT -5
Yes, God the father sent Jesus. Looking at Jesus was looking at the father who sent him, because the father was IN Jesus. John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.Yes, because those who saw (believed) Jesus saw more than a physical man. They saw one who could forgive sins, who could heal sickness and disease, who could bring a dead person back to life, and even resurrect himself from the dead. Small wonder that they would worship him, an act reserved for God alone. And yet he spoke of his Father in heaven. Are you confused yet? I don't believe his disciples were. Fred, Jesus isn't the only zealot that wandered around healing people in that time period. There were many many zealots that were said to heal the sick and preach the end of times and the return of the Messiah. The Temple priests were charging people to have their sins forgiven and to be healed and the zealots believed that it should be free because it wasn't them, it was God working through them. So their was a huge uprising among the people that they had to buy an animal or bird at the temple gates so that they would be allowed to enter THEIR temple and get forgiveness or healed. Many of these zealots were crucified for treason if they managed to inspire enough people and have enough followers. It was a different time and I'm sure if you happened to step back in time and viewed what was going on with the eyes of a modern man, you would see what was happening in a whole different perspective. JMT
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Post by fixit on Aug 30, 2015 14:46:43 GMT -5
Yes, God the father sent Jesus. Looking at Jesus was looking at the father who sent him, because the father was IN Jesus. John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.Yes, because those who saw (believed) Jesus saw more than a physical man. They saw one who could forgive sins, who could heal sickness and disease, who could bring a dead person back to life, and even resurrect himself from the dead. Small wonder that they would worship him, an act reserved for God alone. And yet he spoke of his Father in heaven. Are you confused yet? I don't believe his disciples were. The Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 30, 2015 23:48:15 GMT -5
It's good to see Review005 responding to my posts again...in bold, colourful large font Boring must be over and the long haul back home starts - I trust he has a safe trip. While Jesus taught us to pray to the Father we have on record where early Christians prayed to Jesus. Christians are described by Paul as those who "call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (that is, pray to Jesus). (1 Cor 1:2) Stephen is an example from early Acts. He prayed as he died "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit". Ross a)You start with a diversion to draw attention away from your rejection or lack of understanding of simple concepts of Christianity. Pretty pathetic!\ b)"While Jesus taught us to pray to the Father we have on record where early Christians prayed to Jesus."
Ross posts of Christians praying to Jesus and seemingly arrives at the conclusion that it is correct to ignore or subjugate the words and teaching of our Lord Jesus
John 15:16 ......: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. c) Quotes Scripture (1Cor 1v2) which in fact confirms John 15:16!!!!!
This forum is for exchanging of ideas, understanding of Scripture etc.
I have expressed why I pray to the Father in Jesus name.
You don't pray to the Father in Jesus name.
You pray to Jesus... So just keep right on with what you feel is correct. Egads! Review's back again! Geeze, I'd hoped he was gone to having gospel meetings or something!
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 31, 2015 0:25:37 GMT -5
Egads! Review's back again! Geeze, I'd hoped he was gone to having gospel meetings or something! Yes, I've been missing his love letters as well! He's even formed an opinion on who I pray to!! On a serious note, I think NZ and Australian workers pretty much wrap up their missions in September and resume next February. You mean they take four month holiday?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 1:58:45 GMT -5
Ross, I share lots with you on this. The Workers can speak about the Gospel - and that's it. If I have a question about science, by way of example I will ask a scientist. For art I will ask an artist. Some would ask a Worker about these things as if Workers are authorities on art, science and everything else. I suspect lots of Workers would be annoyed about such assumptions too.
ps I am with someone who is watching Bold and the Beautiful as I type - talk about gross... murder, revenge, jealously, sexual intrigue... someone is about to kill Stephy!!!!!
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 31, 2015 2:32:40 GMT -5
Ross, I share lots with you on this. The Workers can speak about the Gospel - and that's it. If I have a question about science, by way of example I will ask a scientist. For art I will ask an artist. Some would ask a Worker about these things as if Workers are authorities on art, science and everything else. I suspect lots of Workers would be annoyed about such assumptions too.
ps I am with someone who is watching Bold and the Beautiful as I type - talk about gross... murder, revenge, jealously, sexual intrigue... someone is about to kill Stephy!!!!!
bert, why does it always seem that you "are with someone watching TV" ?
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2015 4:02:09 GMT -5
Yes, I've been missing his love letters as well! He's even formed an opinion on who I pray to!! On a serious note, I think NZ and Australian workers pretty much wrap up their missions in September and resume next February. You mean they take four month holiday? You mean they stop preaching for that long. How scriptural is that stopping to prepare for convention? Did the apostles take time off to prepare for convention or did they appoint deacons to attend to church matters so that the apostles could devote themselves to the preaching of the word. Conventions seem an obsession like the word trinity gets accused of flying around here.
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2015 5:01:20 GMT -5
Seems as it we have a TV addict on here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 5:59:50 GMT -5
Quote - "You mean they stop preaching for that long. How scriptural is that stopping to prepare for convention? Did the apostles take time off to prepare for convention or did they appoint deacons to attend to church matters so that the apostles could devote themselves to the preaching of the word. Conventions seem an obsession like the word trinity gets accused of flying around here."
Weren't "deacons" simply "elders" of the churches? Recall Jesus appeared before a gathering of 500 of the early church somewhere. That would have taken a lot of effort to prepared. Someone has to do it. I am sure that working fathers or harried mothers were of much help. So, unlike the doctrine of the Trinity, church gatherings (beginning with the three day one Jesus had) were part and parcel of the first church.
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Post by Grant on Aug 31, 2015 14:16:32 GMT -5
Seems as if review worships, he does not know who. Christians consider Jesus worthy of our worship and one with the Father.
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