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Post by joanna on Aug 27, 2015 6:41:31 GMT -5
"If people will kill others because they think their mystical experience, their god experience was true, shouldn't we know the brain mechanisms responsible for that?" M. Persinger Neuropsychological Bases of God Beliefs.Dr Michael Persinger worked with Stanley Koren to invent the god helmet. Watch this video for just one example of the many which show mind control in action.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 10:21:52 GMT -5
he introduced stimuli that isn't normally present "a magnet" to induce a hallucination nothing more...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 10:48:05 GMT -5
Joanna, Dawkins style "explanations" for the belief in God are often quite plausible. Some people DO hear "voices" which are most like schizophrenic for instance. But the logic fallacy is to lump EVERYTHING that causes people to believe in God together.
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Post by matisse on Aug 27, 2015 12:45:14 GMT -5
he introduced stimuli that isn't normally present "a magnet" to induce a hallucination nothing more... That's the point, isn't it? With not a lot of help, our minds have the potential to convince us of the existence of things outside of us that are really all in our head. The experiment does not disprove the existence of "God". It does, however, suggest the possibility that any given "undisputable" personal experience of "God" might have been generated "locally" in the person's mind..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 15:14:59 GMT -5
he introduced stimuli that isn't normally present "a magnet" to induce a hallucination nothing more... That's the point, isn't it? With not a lot of help, our minds have the potential to convince us of the existence of things outside of us that are really all in our head. The experiment does not disprove the existence of "God". It does, however, suggest the possibility that any given "undisputable" personal experience of "God" might have been generated "locally" in the person's mind.. given enough time and the right equipment you could torture someone into believing they were Abraham Lincoln too...manipulation of a persons mind with external physical devices means nothing...
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Post by joanna on Aug 27, 2015 22:35:27 GMT -5
There is no denying that well-meaning individuals will commit the most horrific acts of violence because they are convinced the voice of god told them to do so. They can retrieve parts of scripture to validate their actions.
There is also no denying that scientific progress has enabled conditions and diseases which were once fatal and caused the death of many babies, young children and adults to be either prevented or treated. This is possible due to scientific research.
Therefore the intention to determine the brain's reaction to religious belief systems is vital. If Dr Michael Persinger and his peers can discover the reasons why some people are susceptible to indoctrination and others can resist this process, then suicide bombing, people who kill in the name of god(s) may be saved from this disempowering mind control status. This scientific inquiry is actual, it conforms to guidelines and yields evidence, so why not support it?
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Post by joanna on Aug 28, 2015 20:43:27 GMT -5
"So be it. It was the work of God," he said.Any person who believes they hear the voice of god speaking to them, knows that this same 'still, small voice' can motivate people to do as this son did to his mother. The muslim who is convinced that their heavenly reward is a certainty when crashing a plane into the world trade center, or blowing up shoppers in a market place is also convinced that god spoke to them. The most effective means of negating such unevidenced claims is to research how the human brain reacts to religious concepts. An unquestioning, apathetic response to claims that god has answers prayers and has directly spoken to believers; whether they be professing, mormon, muslim or jew, is not conducive to preventing the dangerous and divisive impacts of religious beliefs. The still small voice link is relevant to this thread
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Post by What Hat on Aug 29, 2015 6:30:52 GMT -5
"So be it. It was the work of God," he said.Any person who believes they hear the voice of god speaking to them, knows that this same 'still, small voice' can motivate people to do as this son did to his mother. The muslim who is convinced that their heavenly reward is a certainty when crashing a plane into the world trade center, or blowing up shoppers in a market place is also convinced that god spoke to them. The most effective means of negating such unevidenced claims is to research how the human brain reacts to religious concepts. An unquestioning, apathetic response to claims that god has answers prayers and has directly spoken to believers; whether they be professing, mormon, muslim or jew, is not conducive to preventing the dangerous and divisive impacts of religious beliefs. The still small voice link is relevant to this thread You've got cause and effect in the wrong order. Schizophrenics who "hear voices" will make cultural attributions to those voices including religious ones, but if they are atheistic schizophrenics (sorry for the dated term) it might be Elvis or Hitler just as well. But you're implication that anyone who follows a religion or who attends an Elvis festival has a mental disorder does not follow. Leave the study of abhorrent behaviours to the field of psychiatry and medicine where it belongs.
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Post by placid-void on Aug 29, 2015 6:38:12 GMT -5
Leave the study of abhorrent behaviours to the field of psychiatry and medicine where it belongs. Agreed
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Post by joanna on Aug 29, 2015 20:21:48 GMT -5
Yes, research into any specific domain must be the responsibility of the experts and this is why the work of Dr Michael Persinger is so interesting and worthy of being conveyed to the public. This is how we learn about scientific progress and the dangerous impacts of religiosity require urgent investigations and interventions. Hopefully people don't close their minds to the neurological impacts of religious beliefs. This is a sensitive topic but the goals of the researchers involved in this field should be respected and their work noticed.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2015 22:32:14 GMT -5
That's the point, isn't it? With not a lot of help, our minds have the potential to convince us of the existence of things outside of us that are really all in our head. The experiment does not disprove the existence of "God". It does, however, suggest the possibility that any given "undisputable" personal experience of "God" might have been generated "locally" in the person's mind.. given enough time and the right equipment you could torture someone into believing they were Abraham Lincoln too...manipulation of a persons mind with external physical devices means nothing... It means that what we think & believe, is the results of the actions of our brain like our blood circulation is the results of our heart pumping.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2015 22:36:01 GMT -5
"So be it. It was the work of God," he said.Any person who believes they hear the voice of god speaking to them, knows that this same 'still, small voice' can motivate people to do as this son did to his mother. The muslim who is convinced that their heavenly reward is a certainty when crashing a plane into the world trade center, or blowing up shoppers in a market place is also convinced that god spoke to them. The most effective means of negating such unevidenced claims is to research how the human brain reacts to religious concepts. An unquestioning, apathetic response to claims that god has answers prayers and has directly spoken to believers; whether they be professing, mormon, muslim or jew, is not conducive to preventing the dangerous and divisive impacts of religious beliefs. The still small voice link is relevant to this thread You've got cause and effect in the wrong order. Schizophrenics who "hear voices" will make cultural attributions to those voices including religious ones, but if they are atheistic schizophrenics (sorry for the dated term) it might be Elvis or Hitler just as well.But you're implication that anyone who follows a religion or who attends an Elvis festival has a mental disorder does not follow. Leave the study of abhorrent behaviours to the field of psychiatry and medicine where it belongs. Are you saying that Elvis & Hitler were atheists?
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Post by joanna on Aug 29, 2015 23:07:44 GMT -5
atheist singing gospel hymns
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Post by snow on Aug 30, 2015 0:03:10 GMT -5
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Post by maryhig on Aug 30, 2015 1:06:46 GMT -5
Or we can see it like this! Without God, we're imprisoned by Satan and we are shackled to the world by chains of darkness and we can't see it. Once we give our hearts to God, we receive the light, and then we see and we are set free! (And that picture above is correct, but in God! without God, your blind, and in prison!)
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 30, 2015 1:49:17 GMT -5
Or we can see it like this! Without God, we're imprisoned by Satan and we are shackled to the world by chains of darkness and we can't see it. Once we give our hearts to God, we receive the light, and then we see and we are set free! (And that picture above is correct, but in God! without God, your blind, and in prison!) It is indeed fortunate that some Christians have a Satan to blame for all the things that they don't want to believe their god could possibly be guilty of, -like killing everyone!
(Even though the bible itself said HE did!)
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 30, 2015 1:52:26 GMT -5
The dual personality of a creator, both good & evil; is the basis for many religious beliefs throughout history. Christianity just seems to be the latest.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 30, 2015 6:30:34 GMT -5
You've got cause and effect in the wrong order. Schizophrenics who "hear voices" will make cultural attributions to those voices including religious ones, but if they are atheistic schizophrenics (sorry for the dated term) it might be Elvis or Hitler just as well.But you're implication that anyone who follows a religion or who attends an Elvis festival has a mental disorder does not follow. Leave the study of abhorrent behaviours to the field of psychiatry and medicine where it belongs. Are you saying that Elvis & Hitler were atheists?If you're an atheist and hearing voices telling you to be suspicious of the man in the yellow hat, it's likely not the voice of Jehovah you think you hear, but some other voice, maybe Elvis or Hitler.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 30, 2015 7:04:03 GMT -5
Yes, research into any specific domain must be the responsibility of the experts and this is why the work of Dr Michael Persinger is so interesting and worthy of being conveyed to the public. This is how we learn about scientific progress and the dangerous impacts of religiosity require urgent investigations and interventions. Hopefully people don't close their minds to the neurological impacts of religious beliefs. This is a sensitive topic but the goals of the researchers involved in this field should be respected and their work noticed. I had a look at Persinger's bio on wikipedia, and he looks like an interesting academic. But his research seems very singular and not really part of a field. I doubt any other researchers are looking at this area. His research on the thesis that religiosity is mainly the result of neuropsychological effects has been reviewed and greeted with skepticism by others in academic circles, and personally I also think the idea is unconvincing. There is no question that people with epilepsy or schizophrenia link those effects with supernatural religious knowledge or figures with which they're familiar but I don't see how you can generalize from those cases to assume that the deep convictions of all religious individuals are neuro-psychological in basis.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 30, 2015 7:14:05 GMT -5
As an observation on the thought patterns and beliefs of the individual I think this holds in many cases. But I think the opposite is true as often, and maybe more often. Trust in God, and especially the worthiness of ideals, has helped many individuals to see their own condition or that of others more clearly, with the result of taking on a cause that pragmatically is illogical. Causes like taking on disease or world hunger or one's own addictions or self-destructive or family disrupting behaviour have been taken on in the name of a transcendent belief, including one in Jesus, taking the individual in some cases, and the wider world in others out of the prison of a rational defeatism.
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Post by snow on Aug 30, 2015 10:29:33 GMT -5
What Hat hat What is rational defeatism in this context?
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Post by joanna on Aug 30, 2015 19:00:20 GMT -5
What Hat wrote "But his research seems very singular and not really part of a field. I doubt any other researchers are looking at this area". Research into the effects of religious belief on the brain is being conducted in a number of fields and by multiple researchers. The relevant areas of science include neuroscience; neuropsychology; cognitive science and neurotheology. Daniel Dennett: "we have a soul made of information" "there is no central recogniser of meaning"; "the clothes have no emporer... If you still have an emporer ( an experiencing subject) in your theory of consciousness then you haven't even begun, you've simply postponed your theory" Here is just one informative presentation which strives to prompt contemplation of the theory of consciousness:
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Post by placid-void on Aug 30, 2015 20:10:44 GMT -5
Jung, Durkheim, Taoist philosophy and other perspectives might further complement one's search for understanding, knowledge and wisdom.
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Post by placid-void on Aug 31, 2015 19:50:31 GMT -5
In my opinion Daniel Dennett is the intellectual dynamo of the “four horsemen”. He displays remarkable intellectual depth and breadth in his publications and his arguments are presented comprehensively and crisply. In honesty, much of his erudition far outpaces my capacity to comprehend. That being said, his worldview is clear and the conclusions he reaches can be anticipated quite readily.
A catch point for credible debates are the subtle and unacknowledged assumptions that underpin the arguments presented and the lack of acknowledgement of those variables that remain unaccounted for in a debate. Acknowledgement of both underlying assumptions and unexplored variables are key to meaningful debate.
For better or worse, the modern Western scientific community has made the choice to focus exclusively on physical matter and the human sensory capacity (extended by instrumentation) to measure, assess and describe all of objective reality using these tools and focus.
Meanwhile, the subjective reality of life, that shapes and influences every experience of each individual, is but a poor step-child, standing aside, excluded from the polite and erudite company of modern science. To my mind this is unfortunate but understandable. It is understandable because we lack both the appropriate vocabulary and the appropriate diagnostic tools to assess subjective value in a manner compatible with objective measurements and observations.
My one caution, is that we not choose to discard the intrinsic richness of each life my succumbing to the siren call of materialism and reductionist philosophy.
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Post by joanna on Sept 1, 2015 5:42:51 GMT -5
Daniel Dennett is brilliant however I think the four horsemen complement each other due to their different approaches to topics. placid-void, your reference to subjective reality possibly being overlooked by western science 'focusing exclusively on ... objective reality' is reviewed here by one of those four horsemen
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Post by placid-void on Sept 1, 2015 10:38:46 GMT -5
Daniel Dennett is brilliant however I think the four horsemen complement each other due to their different approaches to topics. placid-void, your reference to subjective reality possibly being overlooked by western science 'focusing exclusively on ... objective reality' is reviewed here by one of those four horsemen Thanks joanna, for the link. I have not seen or read "Waking Up" yet. I very much enjoyed his earlier work, "The End Of Faith". I have looked through some of his later works, but have experienced less resonance. The subsequent works seem more directed toward an agenda than an exposition on principles. Perhaps it is my own prejudices, but I sense a drift toward self importance as his literary success has continued to explode.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 1, 2015 19:39:15 GMT -5
There is no denying that well-meaning individuals will commit the most horrific acts of violence because they are convinced the voice of god told them to do so. They can retrieve parts of scripture to validate their actions. Joanna There is such a thing as spiritual discernment. Clearly the people you speak of lacked in that area. There is also no denying that scientific progress has enabled conditions and diseases which were once fatal and caused the death of many babies, young children and adults to be either prevented or treated. This is possible due to scientific research. Therefore the intention to determine the brain's reaction to religious belief systems is vital. If Dr Michael Persinger and his peers can discover the reasons why some people are susceptible to indoctrination and others can resist this process, then suicide bombing, people who kill in the name of god(s) may be saved from this disempowering mind control status. This scientific inquiry is actual, it conforms to guidelines and yields evidence, so why not support it? Any scientific enquiry will produce the opposite to what having faith in the power of God is. You cant discern oranges from apples. Even if it does conform to guidelines and procedures. It is like living on different planets.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 11:56:59 GMT -5
That's a creepy photo, Snow.
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