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Post by blandie on Aug 26, 2015 12:36:15 GMT -5
It's worth noting that their behaviour is far worse than the 2x2 church. Those who leave are completely cut off as if they no longer existed. I wouldn't say 'far worse' because I know instances of very severe alienation in F&W families. Oh no - they used the word cult and the announcer said secret sect!
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Post by bubbles on Aug 26, 2015 13:02:56 GMT -5
Blast I saw the ad Secret Sect but forgot to watch it.
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Post by xna on Aug 26, 2015 13:33:55 GMT -5
It's worth noting that their behaviour is far worse than the 2x2 church. Those who leave are completely cut off as if they no longer existed. I wouldn't say 'far worse' My guess is that she is no longer religious. Does anyone know?More about her here: She is quoted here; " Joy Nason, a GetUp member, said she was sending glitter to government MPs because she was proud to be an Australian who supports marriage equality. The prime minister seems to be doing everything he can to rain on our parade, so glitter seems like the perfect way to brighten up his attitude. And his carpet!” she said."
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tom
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by tom on Aug 26, 2015 18:33:33 GMT -5
It's worth noting that their behaviour is far worse than the 2x2 church. Those who leave are completely cut off as if they no longer existed. I wouldn't say 'far worse' because I know instances of very severe alienation in F&W families. Oh no - they used the word cult and the announcer said secret sect! If alienation has happened it is a family matter- absolutely nothing to do with what the church believes.
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Post by blandie on Aug 26, 2015 20:55:08 GMT -5
If alienation has happened it is a family matter- absolutely nothing to do with what the church believes. It probably has something to do with what a church believes because the trigger for the estrangement and alienation is a person leaving the church group tho I'm not sure if you are talking about the exclusive plyms or 2x2-ism.
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Post by fixit on Aug 26, 2015 23:25:34 GMT -5
If alienation has happened it is a family matter- absolutely nothing to do with what the church believes. I don't think you can divorce the two completely. Some families will take alienation to "extra lengths" which agreed, is not the fault of the church. However, the only reason that any alienation is there in the first place is because of the exclusive teaching of the church. In a nut shell, what do you believe is the requirement for salvation? Do you alienate yourself from everyone who doesn't meet those requirements?
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Post by blandie on Aug 27, 2015 2:12:56 GMT -5
Probably more friendships get broken off than relationships with immediate family - though it happens - but I think the they-went-out-from-us-because-they-were-not-of-us mentality probably lies beneath both types of alienation.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 27, 2015 3:27:26 GMT -5
I wouldn't say 'far worse' because I know instances of very severe alienation in F&W families. Oh no - they used the word cult and the announcer said secret sect! If alienation has happened it is a family matter- absolutely nothing to do with what the church believes. Hi Tom, Alienation and cutting-off is definitely not an official Two-by-Two stance (but then what rules there are official?!). It definitely does happen, though. To varying degrees, depending on who you are and where you live. On the positive side, when I left the group, my parents discussed it with one of the older workers at convention. They were very thankful for his words - "just remember that no matter what, she is still your daughter". He did not in any way condone alienation or cutting off, and clearly stated that, which was great. However, there were others who did become alienated - for various reasons. Some workers apparently publicly cautioned people about having anything to do with me (I only know because people rang and told me this). An older, influential Two-by-Two rang my personal friends and counselled them to restrict the friendship. I was only allowed to visit with strictly controlled conditions (not allowed to discuss religion or mention the word "Jesus", or stay overnight). The main issues seemed to be: a) The history. The workers were extremely unhappy when I said I would talk about it to anyone who wanted to know. Many of the friends, especially my peers, still didn't know about William Irvine, and the workers didn't want them to know. b) Good old fashioned fear. Talking to me and why I left could cause doubts and fears. Maybe it would give the devil a foothold. Many simply don't want their faith questioned at any level, it is too confronting and frightening. And so avoidance and alienation occurs. This is a by-product of the exclusive teaching. I appreciate that in general, the Two-by-Twos do not force shunning of ex-members. However, anyone who leaves is most commonly considered to no longer have genuine faith, and an inevitable division occurs that is usually not the case in other churches (where a family member leaves for another church, or leaves church altogether). Those of you who are still attending meetings, and engage in discussion here on TMB with those of us who have left, are brave and going against the flow of most of the friends and their extreme reluctance to talk to us about matters of faith. A few of you even use your real identity, which is even braver.
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tom
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by tom on Aug 27, 2015 4:53:51 GMT -5
If alienation has happened it is a family matter- absolutely nothing to do with what the church believes. Hi Tom, Alienation and cutting-off is definitely not an official Two-by-Two stance (but then what rules there are official?!). It definitely does happen, though. To varying degrees, depending on who you are and where you live. On the positive side, when I left the group, my parents discussed it with one of the older workers at convention. They were very thankful for his words - "just remember that no matter what, she is still your daughter". He did not in any way condone alienation or cutting off, and clearly stated that, which was great. However, there were others who did become alienated - for various reasons. Some workers apparently publicly cautioned people about having anything to do with me (I only know because people rang and told me this). An older, influential Two-by-Two rang my personal friends and counselled them to restrict the friendship. I was only allowed to visit with strictly controlled conditions (not allowed to discuss religion or mention the word "Jesus", or stay overnight). The main issues seemed to be: a) The history. The workers were extremely unhappy when I said I would talk about it to anyone who wanted to know. Many of the friends, especially my peers, still didn't know about William Irvine, and the workers didn't want them to know. b) Good old fashioned fear. Talking to me and why I left could cause doubts and fears. Maybe it would give the devil a foothold. Many simply don't want their faith questioned at any level, it is too confronting and frightening. And so avoidance and alienation occurs. This is a by-product of the exclusive teaching. I appreciate that in general, the Two-by-Twos do not force shunning of ex-members. However, anyone who leaves is most commonly considered to no longer have genuine faith, and an inevitable division occurs that is usually not the case in other churches (where a family member leaves for another church, or leaves church altogether). Those of you who are still attending meetings, and engage in discussion here on TMB with those of us who have left, are brave and going against the flow of most of the friends and their extreme reluctance to talk to us about matters of faith. A few of you even use your real identity, which is even braver. Blandie mentioned families alienating other family members, and I was referring to that. I still say that this is a personal choice and is nothing to do with 'belief' that the church might have. I know of no worker or member that would condone this. Yes when people leave the church it does change the dynamics of friendships - that is just what happens, but our family are our family regardless of what they believe.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 27, 2015 12:07:29 GMT -5
This story is at odds with what little I know of the Plymouth Brethren. I worked on a seminar course a decade ago with an English professor who had been a member of the Plymouth Brethren here in Canada. The problem is that this group isn't really the Plymouth Brethren, rather, it's one branch of this very divided family of churches. So tracing this down, this lady was a member of one branch of the Plymouth/ Exclusive Brethren known as the Raven-Taylor-Hales Brethren with a strong presence in Australia. Not surprisingly, a characteristic of this group, as opposed to other Plymouth Brethren groups and the friends is that they have a single charismatic leader, currently Bruce Hales of Australia. More information here - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Brethren_Christian_ChurchAs the wiki article points out, this group departs from the normal Brethren practice of not having an appointed or designated clergy, so in some ways it's the antithesis of Brethren practice. (Ex-Brethren members have told me though that the elders have far too much power in most Brethren congregations, and their former church does have problems .. like any church.) The Plymouth/ Exclusive Brethren itself were begun by John Nelson Darby, one of the most influential theologians of the 19th century. According to wiki, Darby was the first to identify the 'rapture' where Christians suddenly vanish into thin air because they are good Christians and they wish to avoid the bad things that are going to happen to Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus, and worst of all, atheists and even 'not good enough' Christians. You can thank Darby for all those sensational Christian sci-fi/ rapture novels that are so popular today. More significantly, he developed a theology around 'dispensationalism', the simple idea that God intervenes at specific points in human history to advance the divine narrative. The obvious example is the birth and life of Jesus. A less obvious example is the belief of some in a black slab landing from outer space to get early humanoids or ape creatures using fire as a weapon and source of heat. Apparently, quite a few people believed in this theory until sometime around the year 2001.
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Post by fixit on Aug 27, 2015 15:14:48 GMT -5
In a nut shell, what do you believe is the requirement for salvation? Do you alienate yourself from everyone who doesn't meet those requirements? Not sure what you are referring to - you'll have to be clearer. I'm simply saying that when a group teaches its adherents that they are the only right way to heaven it's not surprising that some folk in the group alienate those who leave. No-one has a right to alienate anyone and if they do it reflects poorly on those doing the alienating. Ross, I was responding to your statement below: Some families will take alienation to "extra lengths" which agreed, is not the fault of the church. However, the only reason that any alienation is there in the first place is because of the exclusive teaching of the church. I'm not convinced that there's a link between exclusivity and alienation. I expect you have some beliefs around "the only right way to heaven" yourself.
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Post by snow on Aug 27, 2015 19:03:45 GMT -5
I never had much contact with the workers after I left home. Before that of course I did and there was a lot of different things they did. They didn't ignore me, but they did warn other families about me and that made them less inclined to let their kids hang out with me. They talked to me about being lost if I didn't re profess and they spoke a lot of what I was doing to my parents in order to get me to feel like I should return for their sake. Once I left home no one contacted me in my new city. When I would visit my parents I would see a worker from time to time and for the most part it was friendly. They were really good at both my parents funerals and when my mother was in her last days there was one that spent time by her bedside with me from time to time. He was really nice and considerate. When I was about to leave for the night (the night before she died) she reached out to me and asked me not to go yet. You the worker and another male friend went and hunted down a chair for me that reclined so I didn't have to sit on the hard straight backed chair I had been using. So yes, things can be less than wonderful sometimes, but they can also be very good. I believe I was shown a lot of kindness by both friends and workers when I was going through the difficult times of saying goodbye to first my dad then my mom. When I was growing up and still at home as a minor, the experience was a bit more stressful and sometimes not good at all. It might have something to do with exclusivity but I think it is mostly the individuals involved. I experienced good and bad within the same group, and that doesn't vary much out in the world either. Depends on who you are dealing with for the most part.
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Post by withlove on Aug 31, 2015 0:17:54 GMT -5
Maybe faith-based people feel less in danger of being deceived?
I get the sense that the friends know it isn't PC to alienate, so it is different now, but there is still talking, advice, warnings. Young people know to be on guard, even if now they keep communication open so they can be a light.
Any fellowship that might have happened is tabled...
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