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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 22:01:58 GMT -5
Ross Quote - "Irvine's disciple? When someone researches the history of the founder of a group are they the person's disciple? Not quite. It would be like an historian researching Hitler being called Hitler's disciple....with respect, it's not quite logical."A little thought experiment.
Imagine: Someone writes a book on Hitler. They present the "facts"
Hitler established the world's first modern road network Hitler ended the death, poverty and humiliation of the Versailles Treaty Hitler established the modern space industry. Hitler hugely advanced the modern film industry Hitler advanced the Olympic Games. Hitler loved animals and was the first to regulate hunting seasons, declared some species endangered and mandated better education about the environment. Hitler gave his country the "people's car" Hitler inaugurated anti-smoking for public areas Hitler wanted a united Europe - free from war Hitler prevented Germany from going Communist. Had Germany gone Communist its alliance with Russia would have spread Communism to the whole world. Hitler fought Stalin - his real enemy. Hitler attempted to broker peace with England Etc..
Imagine: this author, like Basil, doesn't mention the war.
Imagine: this author loves Nazis and despised those who opposed them, without really saying so.
Question 1: is this author Telling The Truth? Question 2: would this author be a Disciple of Hitler?
Yes, on both counts.
Is this the "truth" about Hitler? No.
Question 3: would anyone who is an exe, writes to exes, present exe facts, writes exe books (supporting Irvine's views) be a disciple of Irvine?
Yes, in the same way I consider the Hitler author to be a Nazi disciple.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2015 22:06:51 GMT -5
Is there something controversial about that?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 22:43:46 GMT -5
Ross Quote - "Irvine's disciple? When someone researches the history of the founder of a group are they the person's disciple? Not quite. It would be like an historian researching Hitler being called Hitler's disciple....with respect, it's not quite logical."A little thought experiment.
Imagine: Someone writes a book on Hitler. They present the "facts"
Hitler established the world's first modern road network Hitler ended the death, poverty and humiliation of the Versailles Treaty Hitler established the modern space industry. Hitler hugely advanced the modern film industry Hitler advanced the Olympic Games. Hitler loved animals and was the first to regulate hunting seasons, declared some species endangered and mandated better education about the environment. Hitler gave his country the "people's car" Hitler inaugurated anti-smoking for public areas Hitler wanted a united Europe - free from war Hitler prevented Germany from going Communist. Had Germany gone Communist its alliance with Russia would have spread Communism to the whole world. Hitler fought Stalin - his real enemy. Hitler's attempted to broker peace with England Etc..
Imagine: this author, like Basil, doesn't mention the war.
Imagine: this author loves Nazis and despised those who opposed them, without really saying so.
Question 2: is this author Telling The Truth? Question 1: would this author be a Disciple of Hitler?
Yes, on both counts.
Is this the "truth" about Hitler? No.
Question 3: would anyone who is an exe, writes to exes, present exe facts, writes exe books, supporting the views of Irvine, be a disciple of Irvine?
Yes, in the same way I would consider the Hitler author a Nazi. I don't know if I quite agree with that bert...
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Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2015 23:22:01 GMT -5
Ross Quote - "Irvine's disciple? When someone researches the history of the founder of a group are they the person's disciple? Not quite. It would be like an historian researching Hitler being called Hitler's disciple....with respect, it's not quite logical."A little thought experiment.
Imagine: Someone writes a book on Hitler. They present the "facts"
Hitler established the world's first modern road network Hitler ended the death, poverty and humiliation of the Versailles Treaty Hitler established the modern space industry. Hitler hugely advanced the modern film industry Hitler advanced the Olympic Games. Hitler loved animals and was the first to regulate hunting seasons, declared some species endangered and mandated better education about the environment. Hitler gave his country the "people's car" Hitler inaugurated anti-smoking for public areas Hitler wanted a united Europe - free from war Hitler prevented Germany from going Communist. Had Germany gone Communist its alliance with Russia would have spread Communism to the whole world. Hitler fought Stalin - his real enemy. Hitler's attempted to broker peace with England Etc..
Imagine: this author, like Basil, doesn't mention the war.
Imagine: this author loves Nazis and despised those who opposed them, without really saying so.
Question 1: is this author Telling The Truth? Question 2: would this author be a Disciple of Hitler?
Yes, on both counts.
Is this the "truth" about Hitler? No.
Question 3: would anyone who is an exe, writes to exes, present exe facts, writes exe books, supporting the views of Irvine, be a disciple of Irvine?
Yes, in the same way I would consider the Hitler author a Nazi. I'm trying hard to find the correlation. So she left out the bad stuff about Irvine? That makes her a disciple in the same way as the example you gave? What bad stuff did she leave out.... Help.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2015 23:25:03 GMT -5
Ross Quote - "Irvine's disciple? When someone researches the history of the founder of a group are they the person's disciple? Not quite. It would be like an historian researching Hitler being called Hitler's disciple....with respect, it's not quite logical."A little thought experiment.
Imagine: Someone writes a book on Hitler. They present the "facts"
Hitler established the world's first modern road network Hitler ended the death, poverty and humiliation of the Versailles Treaty Hitler established the modern space industry. Hitler hugely advanced the modern film industry Hitler advanced the Olympic Games. Hitler loved animals and was the first to regulate hunting seasons, declared some species endangered and mandated better education about the environment. Hitler gave his country the "people's car" Hitler inaugurated anti-smoking for public areas Hitler wanted a united Europe - free from war Hitler prevented Germany from going Communist. Had Germany gone Communist its alliance with Russia would have spread Communism to the whole world. Hitler fought Stalin - his real enemy. Hitler's attempted to broker peace with England Etc..
Imagine: this author, like Basil, doesn't mention the war.
Imagine: this author loves Nazis and despised those who opposed them, without really saying so.
Question 2: is this author Telling The Truth? Question 1: would this author be a Disciple of Hitler?
Yes, on both counts.
Is this the "truth" about Hitler? No.
Question 3: would anyone who is an exe, writes to exes, present exe facts, writes exe books, supporting the views of Irvine, be a disciple of Irvine?
Yes, in the same way I would consider the Hitler author a Nazi. I don't know if I quite agree with that bert... Bert's whole conclusion rests on one single word -- "support". As long as one is not supporting all the rest of it, his conclusion is undoubtedly wrong. Now, whether he used the word intentionally to make a point, I don't know. I find everything except the word "support" applies to me, so I accepted his conclusion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 23:35:57 GMT -5
As "supporting the views of Irvine" ? Which book or web author DOESN'T support his views? Which Irvine book or web author is not THEMSELVES a former member as he was? I guess this is the old "If you look like a duck" argument.
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Post by magpie on Jul 30, 2015 0:00:53 GMT -5
Not Irvine but Irvines doctorine.Cooney believed they should remain(go) itinerant,he was ignored as area bishopries were set up. But Irvine majored on second comming,Jesus was to return he said 1914 .(forgot to post the invitation) Now not long ago in talking about what is expected of us as Christians in this decaying world? The 2x2s answer,"But Jesus will return and fix it all up".In the mean time this person thinks we sit on our butts and watch the countries as I.S. go through and rape pillage kill mothers and children and behead their men,because they as christians or moderate Islamics wont denounce their faiths.Back from that,our local crimes,sexual physical abuse,criminal CSA as per some 2x2 workers and others,addicts,refugees(Jesus was one in Egypt also),homeless,mentally ill,ill,etc,do nothing(as one 2x2 lazy said that is why we pay our taxes)cause Jesus will return and fix it all up.Still Irvine doctorine they follow it many to blinded to realise that
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2015 0:56:50 GMT -5
As "supporting the views of Irvine" ? Which book or web author DOESN'T support his views?
I know of NONE who support his view. Irvine Grey So what is the duck? And who looks like the duck?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2015 1:00:05 GMT -5
Not Irvine but Irvines doctorine.Cooney believed they should remain(go) itinerant,he was ignored as area bishopries were set up. But Irvine majored on second comming,Jesus was to return he said 1914 Probably Bert should define what he means by Irvine's doctrine -- it changed over time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 1:51:21 GMT -5
Let's reduce this manageable portions: Is the hypothetical Hitler Autobiographer a Nazi sympathizer?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 2:01:43 GMT -5
Let's reduce this manageable portions: Is the hypothetical Hitler Autobiographer a Nazi sympathizer? if he writes the good with the bad...no if he writes only the "good" then...probably
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2015 2:27:16 GMT -5
Let's reduce this manageable portions: Is the hypothetical Hitler Autobiographer a Nazi sympathizer? How is anyone to know?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2015 2:30:49 GMT -5
Let's reduce this manageable portions: Is the hypothetical Hitler Autobiographer a Nazi sympathizer? if he writes the good with the bad...no if he writes only the "good" then...probably
Actually, a sympathizer can write the bad as well. The author and the reader may have very opposite concepts of what is good and bad.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 2:50:37 GMT -5
Here's another question. A Muslim wrote a book about Western oppression and abuse of of the Muslim world since the 7th Century. He gave one paragraph to cover the Islamic invasion of Europe. One paragraph in an entire book. Is he biased?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 4:30:28 GMT -5
My thought was largely upon Mr Doug Parker and his book. Yes, there's the web site authors too, but not my focus here as I am reviewing the book. But, do you see a bias in the Islamic and Hitler auto- biographer?
I really didn't want to go through your points Ross. Came in tired tonight (been burning off all day - and it's cold) but I hope you see where I am coming from. These people are writing books against us.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 9:14:00 GMT -5
Here's another question. A Muslim wrote a book about Western oppression and abuse of of the Muslim world since the 7th Century. He gave one paragraph to cover the Islamic invasion of Europe. One paragraph in an entire book. Is he biased? one paragraph in an entire book isn't really covering the good with the bad in my estimation...so yes he was biased
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Post by jondough on Jul 30, 2015 10:04:42 GMT -5
As "supporting the views of Irvine" ? Which book or web author DOESN'T support his views? Which Irvine book or web author is not THEMSELVES a former member as he was? I guess this is the old "If you look like a duck" argument. Bert, I would say that all of us still in 2X2 support Irvine's view more than the exes that are documenting our history, no? Many of our traditions are a result of what he established.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2015 11:58:32 GMT -5
Here's another question. A Muslim wrote a book about Western oppression and abuse of of the Muslim world since the 7th Century. He gave one paragraph to cover the Islamic invasion of Europe. One paragraph in an entire book. Is he biased? Not necessarily. His book isn't about Muslim oppression. Christian writers aren't considered biased if they write volumes about Muslim oppression and omit Western oppression,
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2015 12:01:24 GMT -5
My thought was largely upon Mr Doug Parker and his book. Yes, there's the web site authors too, but not my focus here as I am reviewing the book. But, do you see a bias in the Islamic and Hitler auto- biographer?
I really didn't want to go through your points Ross. Came in tired tonight (been burning off all day - and it's cold) but I hope you see where I am coming from. These people are writing books against us. I didn't know you were a high up worker, Bert. If you weren't so paranoid about people criticizing you, you'd realize that it's not you who they're criticizing, it's abusive workers. There are such characters, you know.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2015 12:07:17 GMT -5
Here's another question. A Muslim wrote a book about Western oppression and abuse of of the Muslim world since the 7th Century. He gave one paragraph to cover the Islamic invasion of Europe. One paragraph in an entire book. Is he biased? one paragraph in an entire book isn't really covering the good with the bad in my estimation...so yes he was biased Actually the insertion of only one paragraph about Western oppression is an indication of pro-Western bias. Why does a book about Muslim oppression have to include anything about Western oppression, other than to make the West look better by comparison. Bert's hypothetical wasn't a book about oppression in the Middle East, it was only about Muslim oppression.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2015 12:11:52 GMT -5
As "supporting the views of Irvine" ? Which book or web author DOESN'T support his views? Which Irvine book or web author is not THEMSELVES a former member as he was? I guess this is the old "If you look like a duck" argument. Bert, I would say that all of us still in 2X2 support Irvine's view more than the exes that are documenting our history, no? Many of our traditions are a result of what he established. Somehow that doesn't add up -- a couple of ways. (1) The 2x2s follow Irvine's tradition, but refuse to acknowledge him. (2) The 2x2s who claim to believe as Irvin did (originally) now support the ministry that kicked Irvine out.
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Post by jondough on Jul 30, 2015 16:08:16 GMT -5
Bert, I would say that all of us still in 2X2 support Irvine's view more than the exes that are documenting our history, no? Many of our traditions are a result of what he established. Somehow that doesn't add up -- a couple of ways. (1) The 2x2s follow Irvine's tradition, but refuse to acknowledge him. (2) The 2x2s who claim to believe as Irvin did (originally) now support the ministry that kicked Irvine out. I'm not suggesting that we kept 100 percent of what he established. I think he was kicked out because of how he went off the deep-end at the very end. But prior to that, he set up most of our traditions which we have kept the majority of.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2015 17:08:38 GMT -5
Somehow that doesn't add up -- a couple of ways. (1) The 2x2s follow Irvine's tradition, but refuse to acknowledge him. (2) The 2x2s who claim to believe as Irvin did (originally) now support the ministry that kicked Irvine out. I'm not suggesting that we kept 100 percent of what he established. I think he was kicked out because of how he went off the deep-end at the very end. But prior to that, he set up most of our traditions which we have kept the majority of. Well, in theory, yes, those traditions are still professed. My problem with that is that today people claim to hold to those traditions, but they live by the plan that he was kicked out for. The 10 or so who succeeded him were no more faithful to Irvine's original standards than Irvine was himself.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 18:28:42 GMT -5
So no-one can answer this question?
Question 1: is this author Telling The Truth? Question 2: would this author be a Disciple of Hitler?
Amazing. I seriously worry for you guys. question 1: the author would be omitting some facts if he just printed what you posted earlier question 2: if he just printed those positive things you posted then he probably is a disciple
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Post by swarupa on Jul 30, 2015 18:34:22 GMT -5
was once that was before I got my eyes opened as the little girl told the worker about her kittens
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Post by matisse on Jul 30, 2015 19:01:55 GMT -5
Let's reduce this manageable portions: Is the hypothetical Hitler Autobiographer a Nazi sympathizer? There was a Hitler autobiographer. His name was Adolf Hitler and his autobiography was called Mein Kampf. I think it is safe to say it met with Nazi approval. But who, then, is buried in Grant's Tomb?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 19:35:26 GMT -5
So no-one can answer this question?
Question 1: is this author Telling The Truth? Question 2: would this author be a Disciple of Hitler?
Amazing. I seriously worry for you guys.
Each party in any debate will accuse the other of "Confirmation Bias?" So how to tell? See who has the greater reluctance to answer questions.
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Post by matisse on Jul 30, 2015 20:02:03 GMT -5
So no-one can answer this question?
Question 1: is this author Telling The Truth? Question 2: would this author be a Disciple of Hitler?
Amazing. I seriously worry for you guys.
Each party in any debate will accuse the other of "Confirmation Bias?" So how to tell? See who has the greater reluctance to answer questions. ...like a reluctance to answer questions about Wm. Irvine?
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