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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 14:55:59 GMT -5
In one place it is recorded in the Bible "all unrighteousness is sin." So for me with my linguistic interests a bit of "learning" about the origin of the word was prudent. Others likely know this, however I share it for any who don't. The word "sin" a very old concept came from missing the bulls eye of a(the?) target.
Ever since discovering this, it has helped me to understand the Biblical use of the word. Missing the center of the target. Interesting for and to me. Yes, I believe my Creator established a target for me to aim at and there are several ways of missing that center. One is not knowing of the target, another not caring about any target, another by being wide of the target, being short or long of the target. All that simply miss that center once became known as a "sinner."
Unrighteousness then to me, misses the target for which I should aim. Hitting that target dead center is quite literally beyond me. Therefore, I personally need help in not missing it. John the Baptist, as another has already commented here, "got it" in his reference to my Lord and the sin of the whole world. In my Lord, my target is manifest AND struck dead center. This is not for anyone else to challenge, for it is not being presented for anyone else to believe. It is strictly an attempt to explain my own belief, and why I hold it.
Anyway, that is what I discovered many years ago in my linguistic study of the history of the words "sin" and "sinner." (For what is is worth to anyone reading this.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 18:53:14 GMT -5
From Paul the elder, to Timothy who was young in the Ministry, "Strive not in words that profit nothing, but rather subvert the hearers." Sometimes our striving can be a genuine search, but more often than not we can open ourselves to other people's "striving" to subvert (look at "virgin" Mary comments, "obey those who rule over you", "hell", "resurrection" and the like)
I see sin as anything that is not in God's will. Even good things can be a sin if not done correctly, such as those who gave the master excuses when they were invited to the wedding in one of Jesus' parables.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 28, 2015 21:28:52 GMT -5
I see sin as anything that is not in God's will.
And of course, " see(ing) sin as anything that is not in God's will" is in the eye of the beholder, all 1000's of Christian denominations!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 1:33:20 GMT -5
I see sin as anything that is not in God's will.
And of course, " see(ing) sin as anything that is not in God's will" is in the eye of the beholder, all 1000's of Christian denominations!
and God is the beholder
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Post by placid-void on Jul 29, 2015 14:59:30 GMT -5
In one place it is recorded in the Bible "all unrighteousness is sin." So for me with my linguistic interests a bit of "learning" about the origin of the word was prudent. Others likely know this, however I share it for any who don't. The word "sin" a very old concept came from missing the bulls eye of a(the?) target.
Ever since discovering this, it has helped me to understand the Biblical use of the word. Missing the center of the target. Interesting for and to me. Yes, I believe my Creator established a target for me to aim at and there are several ways of missing that center. One is not knowing of the target, another not caring about any target, another by being wide of the target, being short or long of the target. All that simply miss that center once became known as a "sinner."
Unrighteousness then to me, misses the target for which I should aim. Hitting that target dead center is quite literally beyond me. Therefore, I personally need help in not missing it. John the Baptist, as another has already commented here, "got it" in his reference to my Lord and the sin of the whole world. In my Lord, my target is manifest AND struck dead center. This is not for anyone else to challenge, for it is not being presented for anyone else to believe. It is strictly an attempt to explain my own belief, and why I hold it.
Anyway, that is what I discovered many years ago in my linguistic study of the history of the words "sin" and "sinner." (For what is is worth to anyone reading this.) Hey Dennis thanks for the thread and post. I love words and how they convey meaning. Although I have a passing interest in the origin of words, I have never really committed myself to a study of etymology. I am thrilled by your description of the historical meaning of "sin". I recognize my enthusiasm as an example of "confirmatory bias" but the meaning you suggest is so much closer to the my own "belief structure".
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 29, 2015 15:28:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the reminder, Dennis. To quote: " All that simply miss that center once became known as a "sinner. Unrighteousness then to me, misses the target for which I should aim. Hitting that target dead center is quite literally beyond me. Therefore, I personally need help in not missing it." (From Dennis's post above)
And that is why, to the believer, we are all sinners....doesn't mean we are committing moral wrongs every chance we get, but that we by nature cannot hit center--the perfection of Jesus. Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. OR Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Reminds me of he last half of Romans 14:23 For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 16:05:02 GMT -5
Hey Dennis thanks for the thread and post. I love words and how they convey meaning. Although I have a passing interest in the origin of words, I have never really committed myself to a study of etymology. I am thrilled by your description of the historical meaning of "sin". I recognize my enthusiasm as an example of "confirmatory bias" but the meaning you suggest is so much closer to the my own "belief structure". Thank you for your kind post. I enjoy sharing such things and often wonder if it is foolishness to try and do so, then along comes a post like yours or a p.m. and I think differently.
Really, I just see myself as a dummy who likes to learn, have often said a difference between myself and many others with a significant amount of education is that where they seem to view it as an "ends," for me it has merely been a "means." While it is my desire to understand things correctly, I recognize I do not always, which is why I attempt to share what and why I believe as I do, and do learn from those who disagree. Might not agree with the disagreement, however can learn anyway!
Today, fearing perhaps I am/have become rather narcissistic, I did some research online. I found a narcissism test, answered as honestly as I could, then gave it to Katie to review before I saw the results, telling her my fears. She read it and began to laugh. Turns out that the test indicates I am very low in "echoism" whatever that may be, very high in "healthy narcissism" (prior to today I didn't even know there IS such a thing,) and average to low "extreme narcissism," said to be in this informal test, just where a healthy stable person should be, and confirmed by my loving highly educated wife, Katie. Whew!
If anyone else might like to take the simplified online narcissism test, try "http://www.drcraigmalkin.com/the-narcissism-test".
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Post by placid-void on Jul 29, 2015 16:05:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the reminder, Dennis. To quote: " All that simply miss that center once became known as a "sinner. Unrighteousness then to me, misses the target for which I should aim. Hitting that target dead center is quite literally beyond me. Therefore, I personally need help in not missing it." (From Dennis's post above) And that is why, to the believer, we are all sinners....doesn't mean we are committing moral wrongs every chance we get, but that we by nature cannot hit center--the perfection of Jesus. Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. OR Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Reminds me of he last half of Romans 14:23 For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. I get your point hberry and can't disagree with the way you interpret "sin". My perspective is slight different from yours. I am concerned with finding "dead center", call me what you will. Whereas your perspective seems to be more responsive to the fact that everyone misses "dead center" (no one is perfect) but that's OK because of "God's" grace. In the final analysis I guess it reduces to the differential emphasis we place on "my works" vs "His Grace". Isn't there some scriptural citation that bridges that gap? Somehow, the crucifixion becomes a heavier and heavier burden to bear as I am constantly weighted down the need to continuously witness for the missed targets. Whereas the resurrection moves beyond that burden and through each moments renewal gives me another chance at the target. Just two different ways of trying to find meaning. We are fortunate to have the opportunity to search.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 29, 2015 17:17:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the reminder, Dennis. To quote: " All that simply miss that center once became known as a "sinner. Unrighteousness then to me, misses the target for which I should aim. Hitting that target dead center is quite literally beyond me. Therefore, I personally need help in not missing it." (From Dennis's post above) And that is why, to the believer, we are all sinners....doesn't mean we are committing moral wrongs every chance we get, but that we by nature cannot hit center--the perfection of Jesus. Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. OR Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Reminds me of he last half of Romans 14:23 For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. I get your point hberry and can't disagree with the way you interpret "sin". My perspective is slight different from yours. I am concerned with finding "dead center", call me what you will. Whereas your perspective seems to be more responsive to the fact that everyone misses "dead center" (no one is perfect) but that's OK because of "God's" grace. In the final analysis I guess it reduces to the differential emphasis we place on "my works" vs "His Grace". Isn't there some scriptural citation that bridges that gap? Somehow, the crucifixion becomes a heavier and heavier burden to bear as I am constantly weighted down the need to continuously witness for the missed targets. Whereas the resurrection moves beyond that burden and through each moments renewal gives me another chance at the target. Just two different ways of trying to find meaning. We are fortunate to have the opportunity to search. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you assuming because I accept that I can't hit "dead center" in my own power that it means I don't strive for it? Or are you just saying that you believe you can hit "dead center" by yourself? Maybe that's our difference; I'm not sure. I see myself as God's workmanship, not my own. (Phil 2:13 ..."for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.") Perhaps this is the scriptural bridge: Ephesians 2:4-9 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 17:30:52 GMT -5
Dear HBerry,
I for one understand what you mean and believe regarding this topic completely! Everyday I awaken wanting to hit the target dead center. It seems most often as that day ends I am aware of how low I have struck the target, and receiving asked for mercy and grace continue to desire a flawless state. However, like another, my God has simply told me "my grace is sufficient" and so I trust in that awareness.
Smile, mebbe, just mebbe, my last day in this awareness it might happen... (well, I can dream, can't I?)
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 29, 2015 17:38:57 GMT -5
Dear HBerry,
I for one understand what you mean and believe regarding this topic completely! Everyday I awaken wanting to hit the target dead center. It seems most often as that day ends I am aware of how low I have struck the target, and receiving asked for mercy and grace continue to desire a flawless state. However, like another, my God has simply told me "my grace is sufficient" and so I trust in that awareness.
Smile, mebbe, just mebbe, my last day in this awareness it might happen... (well, I can dream, can't I?) And don't we both! For me, the Cross followed by the resurrection means that someday we will be perfect, and face to face with Christ our Savior. "Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine, oh what a foretaste of glory divine...." One of the songs I had sung at Mom's funeral was "Face to Face" sung at Mom's funeral; don't know if you know it or not, but I love the words. I'm pretty sure you know the tune search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=face+to+face+with+christ+my+savior&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:13:02 GMT -5
Reportedly, Grant Tullar, the composer of the tune had returned as a guest in a Rutheford New Jersey Paster's home and it was most convenient for the hostess to just put out some evening snack material. There was only a small amount of what the pastor and his wife knew was Tullar's favorite jam so they passed it to him saying it words to the effect it was all his.
He happily responded "all for me?"
Then, given an inspiration, it is said he jumped up, went to the piano and composed the now familiar tune with the words, "all for me the Savior suffered, all for me He bled and died." The delighted paster wanted the song taught to his choir that very night, but Tullar declined, saying he wanted to refine it a bit first.
As the account goes, The very next day a letter arrived from Carrie Breck who had written a poem asking Tullar if he might consider composing a tune for it, and to his surprise it was the very same meter as his "All for Me" from the very day before. The tune and words were wed, and the song exists to this very day. Maybe you knew this, maybe others, just thought I would "hijack" my own thread...smile.
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Post by bitterbetty on Jul 29, 2015 18:35:47 GMT -5
My concept of the definition of sin has changed somewhat over the years; especially compared to how/what my parents taught me was 'sin' and how I have grown to view sin as one who has definitely committed her fair share of sins...it is, to put it simply: "Missing the mark". And, we ALL do that! So, we are all sinners, even those who do not think they are sinners are sinners. Plain and simple. There is no perfect person who lives their life completely sin-free. It is not something to be ashamed of, however! And that, to me is a big distinction...(what, have you no shame!?). Well, when we are disciplined and punished for sins, we are often made to feel ashamed...thus what do we try to do in the future... We try to cover it up, instead of look at it honestly and deal with it. That's just my take. People most usually lie and try to cover things up either because they are afraid of getting into to trouble and don't want to face the consequences, OR they do not want to deal with the SHAME that may be brought on by bringing their sin to light.
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Post by bitterbetty on Jul 29, 2015 18:41:28 GMT -5
I love that song too, hb. Here is a beautiful acapella version done by The Issacs. Love the family harmonies. So special. www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE7AGB5nXTs Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine! Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine! Heir of salvation, purchase of God, Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood. Refrain:
This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long; This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long.
Perfect submission, perfect delight, Visions of rapture now burst on my sight; Angels, descending, bring from above Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
Perfect submission, all is at rest, I in my Savior am happy and blest, Watching and waiting, looking above, Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 18:41:57 GMT -5
whats that saying that a judge made over pornography?
I can't define it for you but I know it when I see it? the same goes for sin, I know it when i see it...
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 29, 2015 18:49:01 GMT -5
I love that song too, hb. Here is a beautiful acapella version done by The Issacs. Love the family harmonies. So special. www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE7AGB5nXTs Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine! Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine! Heir of salvation, purchase of God, Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood. Refrain:
This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long; This is my story, this is my song, Praising my Savior all the day long.
Perfect submission, perfect delight, Visions of rapture now burst on my sight; Angels, descending, bring from above Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
Perfect submission, all is at rest, I in my Savior am happy and blest, Watching and waiting, looking above, Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.This is one song that when we sing it as a congregations, the pianist stops playing at the end and we sing it acapella. You can hear the emotion in people's voices when they sing this: we do indeed sing it from the heart! Thanks for the link.
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Post by bitterbetty on Jul 29, 2015 19:00:13 GMT -5
Another famous musician who is also a Christian is Ricky Skaggs. He has always amazed me with his broad range of talent, but still remaining true to his roots and values. "Work of Love." (from his contemporary Christian album, Mosaic) www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJeofUPvTBo
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Post by bitterbetty on Jul 29, 2015 19:17:20 GMT -5
Never, ever 'tire' of Ricky Skaggs' pure vocal ability. Perhaps many folks do not know that he has a very talented wife who comes from a talented family of musicians: The Whites. (father and two daughters) www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHY0EuGcQpc ("It Should've Been Easy")
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Post by magpie on Jul 29, 2015 19:31:58 GMT -5
Sin is when you know you are doing wrong. A mistake is when you realise you did wrong. Two of my favourite gospel musos Stuart Townend and Chris Tomlin. Both have chosen not to waste their talents on secular popularity.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 29, 2015 19:54:19 GMT -5
Sin is when you know you are doing wrong. A mistake is when you realise you did wrong. Two of my favourite gospel musos Stuart Townend and Chris Tomlin. Both have chosen not to waste their talents on secular popularity. Love their songs!
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Post by snow on Jul 29, 2015 21:14:46 GMT -5
I must be a rebel or something. While I do try to do no harm I don't seem to be all that worried about hitting the center of the target or becoming perfect. I think it's much more interesting to be imperfect and a little closer to the 'line' but at the same time not hurting anyone. Just pushing the boundaries I guess.
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2015 8:51:57 GMT -5
I must be a rebel or something. While I do try to do no harm I don't seem to be all that worried about hitting the center of the target or becoming perfect. I think it's much more interesting to be imperfect and a little closer to the 'line' but at the same time not hurting anyone. Just pushing the boundaries I guess. Whose target is it? Maybe that answers the question of why you are not that concerned. If the target is the 'example' that we are to follow I can see exactly how you feel.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 9:28:33 GMT -5
That's a good point, rational, about the "Target."
It is not difficult to identify mine, it is minus works of the flesh as defined in my Bible, and includes the entire fruit of the Spirit found in the same text, sans hypocrisy. Since such is MY target, it is not set up for you, snow, nor anyone else, only for myself. Even so, I know many aiming at the same target, and obviously doing a pretty good job of hitting it unless they ARE hypocrites in which case, only their God, they themselves and their closest will know about it.
My Katie is certainly no hypocrite, genuine through and through. I freely admit in my past, I have been a hypocrite, and suspect many more have been, just won't admit it.
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2015 10:29:55 GMT -5
I must be a rebel or something. While I do try to do no harm I don't seem to be all that worried about hitting the center of the target or becoming perfect. I think it's much more interesting to be imperfect and a little closer to the 'line' but at the same time not hurting anyone. Just pushing the boundaries I guess. Whose target is it? Maybe that answers the question of why you are not that concerned. If the target is the 'example' that we are to follow I can see exactly how you feel. Maybe that's the difference. I have a whole different target!!
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 30, 2015 10:32:05 GMT -5
Whose target is it? Maybe that answers the question of why you are not that concerned. If the target is the 'example' that we are to follow I can see exactly how you feel. Maybe that's the difference. I have a whole different target!! I would imagine that's true, although I'm not following an example but rather a teaching about my heart.
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Post by rational on Jul 30, 2015 13:22:02 GMT -5
Whose target is it? Maybe that answers the question of why you are not that concerned. If the target is the 'example' that we are to follow I can see exactly how you feel. Maybe that's the difference. I have a whole different target!! Or, perhaps you do not feel the need of having a target to control/monitor your actions so you are without sin.
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Post by bitterbetty on Jul 30, 2015 14:02:23 GMT -5
I must be a rebel or something. While I do try to do no harm I don't seem to be all that worried about hitting the center of the target or becoming perfect. I think it's much more interesting to be imperfect and a little closer to the 'line' but at the same time not hurting anyone. Just pushing the boundaries I guess. Actually, Snow, I would call you more of a free-spirit than an outright rebel...and I can relate to that. By nature I tend to be a free-spirit as well. What is the 'target'? What is the goal? There have been a few select times in life in which I was more goal-oriented...but most of my adult life I have not been overly goal oriented. I truly do not know which way is the best to be. It seems as though having goals; especially realistic ones- can be helpful, and perhaps even those who do not have readily identifiable goals really do have goals; just not formally identified. But I can also see that a person can be so caught up in a goal that they do not really enjoy the process of reaching the goal. Gotta enjoy the 'ride' - so to speak...
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Post by bitterbetty on Jul 30, 2015 14:04:16 GMT -5
I must be a rebel or something. While I do try to do no harm I don't seem to be all that worried about hitting the center of the target or becoming perfect. I think it's much more interesting to be imperfect and a little closer to the 'line' but at the same time not hurting anyone. Just pushing the boundaries I guess. Whose target is it? Maybe that answers the question of why you are not that concerned. If the target is the 'example' that we are to follow I can see exactly how you feel. Redneck methodology 101: Know your target. Be sure of what you're shooting at.
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